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Old 04-07-2007, 02:13 AM   #151
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

interesting discussion.

I can certainly understand what Don is saying, as I seem to study for many of the same reasons in MMA that he does and more often than not we are on the same side of the fence.

I think moderation and appropriateness is key in every situation for sure.

I would offer the following as a reason why it is important to have some ettiquette in an aikido.

As an American living overseas, I have gained a greater apprieciation for the importance of understanding other cultures. It helps us better understand the way the world works and helps create a greater sense of awareness and empathy in us.

I think that having the cultural aspects (in balance and moderation) in aikido serves of a reminder of the heritage of where aikido came from. It also allows us to enter a different set up habits and practices that serve as a sort of ritual or practice that can remind us that everything is not like the secular world that surrounds us on a daily basis. I think it creates a deeper sense of community, awareness, empathy and bond between people.

I would not subscribe that it should be a part of BJJ or a MMA school, as they have a different culture or focus. although, a little bit of it never hurts such as bowing in and bowing out of class.

Typically warrior societies are hierachial based and have codes of conduct, rituals, and the like.

The anthesis of this has always been the Guerrilla...the undisciplined warrior that has a disdain for authority and breaks down the paradigms of the hierarchial warrior society and exploits his weaknesses in bureacracy, immobility, and adaptability.

However, as the guerrilla comes into power, he turns to hierachies in order to replicate and mass produce command and control over a large base.

The guerrilla then pops back up to show him all the lessons he failed to remember! so, the cycle goes on.

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Old 04-07-2007, 09:33 AM   #152
salim
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Michael Gallagher,

It's to late, we have already removed the religion and culture from our Aikido and others will follow. The simple fact is, some people don't want what you want. You can't force people to practice Aikido the Japanese way, it's up to the individual dojo. We love our school, individuals have there our own religion, we want good health, exercise and self defense in our lives. Our instructor has been teaching this way for over 25 years without the bowing, foot protocol and other Japanese culture. We do use the gi, hakama, and the japanese terms for the different movements only.

As mention before, our dojo is a mixture of law students, doctors, and engineers. The question about behavior is well established in our professional careers. We work with people all over the world. The basic principles of behavior is not in the equation. We exemplify the same behaviors in the dojo as we would with a business colleague. One can be formal without the need for Japanese protocol. A person can simply say, "excuse me instructor Charles, I would like to ask a question, or I don't quite understand the concept of a movement".
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Old 04-07-2007, 10:28 AM   #153
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

...good points.......
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Old 04-07-2007, 10:51 AM   #154
Mark Uttech
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I have always thought that rules and etiquette existed for safety. A good rule is something to be respected, etiquette lends a little bit of ceremony. 'Tenchi nage' still sounds better than 'hamburger throw'...

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 04-07-2007, 12:04 PM   #155
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Respect should not be confused with obeying or following. We respect, but don't necessarily follow every etiquette.
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Old 04-07-2007, 04:54 PM   #156
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Michael Gallagher,

It's to late, we have already removed the religion and culture from our Aikido and others will follow ....
And there are plenty of dojos that have been around a long as your instructor's if not longer and they haven't. Maybe they'll drop it but maybe not.

Quote:
The simple fact is, some people don't want what you want. You can't force people to practice Aikido the Japanese way ....
I'm not interested in forcing anybody to do anything; I just think there are perfectly valid reasons for it. Your teacher doesn't want to do that, that's his business, but that doesn't mean there weren't good reasons for doing it that way in the first place.

Quote:
.... A person can simply say, "excuse me instructor Charles ... "
"Instructor Charles"!? OMG, does he really use that? That sounds just too combersome. If you want to anglicize it and still be polite, "Excuse me, Sir, I would like to ask a question," works just as well, without sounding like it came out of a robot.
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Old 04-07-2007, 10:10 PM   #157
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Michael Gallagher,

That's was just an example. Yes we must certainly say, "please excuse me." That's definitely better than sounding like the karate kid, "Oh Mr. Miyagi”.

I'm glad there are choices in this world and we don't have to follow the communist manifesto mentality.

Last edited by salim : 04-07-2007 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:56 PM   #158
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I perfer "Name, when you have a second, I could use some help."

And "Thanks" when they are done.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-08-2007, 02:13 PM   #159
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Yeah I prefer 'Name" as well.

However, in ASU, I am completely comfortable calling Saotome Sensei, "Sensei, can you help me with this?" As that is what he is....sensei, seems very normal and natural.

Same with stopping and going to seiza when he is demonstrating, heck everyone can see, and why waste an opportunity to learn something when time is so valuable to be with him.

That said, I would feel very ridiculous calling my actual dojo instructor sensei...I call him by his first name, he and I both would feel silly doing this.

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Old 04-08-2007, 09:22 PM   #160
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yeah I prefer 'Name" as well.

However, in ASU, I am completely comfortable calling Saotome Sensei, "Sensei, can you help me with this?" As that is what he is....sensei, seems very normal and natural.

Same with stopping and going to seiza when he is demonstrating, heck everyone can see, and why waste an opportunity to learn something when time is so valuable to be with him.

That said, I would feel very ridiculous calling my actual dojo instructor sensei...I call him by his first name, he and I both would feel silly doing this.
I have no problem stopping to watch a demonstration. My problem is stopping to watch someone getting corrected yet again on basic foot placement for a hip throw. Or even worse, when there were not enough adults and the class was combined with the kids class, we were stopped to get lessons on how to tie a belt.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-08-2007, 10:57 PM   #161
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
..... I would feel very ridiculous calling my actual dojo instructor sensei...I call him by his first name, he and I both would feel silly doing this.
To each his own; I've never had a problem calling any of the instructors in any of the karate or Aikido dojos I've been in "Sensei." Maybe that the rules don't bug me means I'm not sufficiently patriotic enough, but they don't. Never did; probably never will.
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:09 PM   #162
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
.... My problem is stopping to watch someone getting corrected yet again on basic foot placement for a hip throw ....
Them's the rules; if you don't like them, don't go there. You want to hang with your friends from the dojo, you can meet them socially outside class. If they put you off, then hang with people from the other grous you go to. But if the rules bug you so much, don't go there. Even with the "identity crisis" in American Aikido, it is highly unlikely they will change any time soon. So you have a decision to make.

A Vegeterian friend of mine once told me that in order to be a vegeterian, you have to like the food. You don't do yourself any favors by telling yourself, This is good for the animals. This is good for the planet. This is good for my health. But it really tastes like BLEEP! You're better off not doing it. Same applies here. If the only reason you go to Aikido two or three times a month is to hang with the people training there but you like almost nothing else about it and can't stand the rules, maybe you're better off skipping the classes altogether and trying to meet the Aikido people socially outside the dojo. If they don't want to meet you, oh, well. Food for thought.
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:50 AM   #163
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I know full well what I'm doing and why I do it. If I had a problem with it, I would stop. If you read my posts my problem is 90% with schools I no longer attend, with the remaining 10% an annoyance that I tolerate because I find what's left over fun.

It's just like bjj competitions. I hate the waiting, I hate the drive there, I hate the mass amounts of people, I hate the costs, but once all that is out of the way I usually have a good time.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:20 AM   #164
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have no problem stopping to watch a demonstration. My problem is stopping to watch someone getting corrected yet again on basic foot placement for a hip throw. Or even worse, when there were not enough adults and the class was combined with the kids class, we were stopped to get lessons on how to tie a belt.
People who aren't ready to go when the traffic light turns green must really piss you off!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:55 AM   #165
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
People who aren't ready to go when the traffic light turns green must really piss you off!
Are you spying on me?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:57 AM   #166
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
.... the remaining 10% an annoyance that I tolerate because I find what's left over fun.
You could have used the "F" word five posts ago and saved me a lot of typing! The you are getting something out of it .... probably more than you know. Good for you!
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:59 AM   #167
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
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Are you spying on me?
Just so's you know, I usually wait two seconds after the light turns before going. Just in case you're ever stuck behind me.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:29 AM   #168
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
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Just so's you know, I usually wait two seconds after the light turns before going. Just in case you're ever stuck behind me.
Everybody put your guns down!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:01 PM   #169
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Just so's you know, I usually wait two seconds after the light turns before going. Just in case you're ever stuck behind me.
Actually, I've started doing this as well. Ever since the times I've nearly been hit by the guy trying to race through the light at the last minute. One time it was a city bus.

I actually don't wait an arbitrary time, I look both ways to make sure any cars that should have stopped are stopped (or at least are definitely stopping).

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Old 04-10-2007, 12:23 PM   #170
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

My brother and I both run through red lights all the time. I also stop at green lights, as I never know when my brother might be coming the other way...
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:13 PM   #171
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Sounds like four way stops around here where I live. No matter how well versed one is in the rules of the road, one's actions must be contingent upon what the idiot in the other car does. The only real rule is Get Home Alive.

Eyes open, prepare to evade.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:25 AM   #172
Mark Uttech
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I recall a roadside sign that I glanced at as I drove by, it simply said: "You aren't watching the road."

In gassho

Mark
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