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Old 04-09-2007, 06:21 AM   #1
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
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really strugling

Hi this is Brian again, the AIKIDO and KALI guy,

I love AIKIDO, i love absolutly everything about it, the philosphy, the practice, the martial and Budo aspects of it.

I also really enjoy KALI, but i am having a very diffucult time dealing with its emphasis. I know that the intention is the main thing in ones development. I just fear that the more i train in KALI the more that training will overtake my reactions when and if god forbid any situation comes about. I know that i have placed everal other threads here that are very similar, so please forgive my redundency,
i am just searching for a light at the end of the tunnel that i can catch, and maybe someone somewhere will say the right thing in the right way for me to catch on.

As Bagwahn once said "the truth cant be taught it must be caught"
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:15 AM   #2
James Davis
 
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Re: really strugling

Brian, if your teacher advocates hurting people, or doesn't respect your safety in training, then I'd say move on.

If he has self control, then I'd advise letting him teach you how to have it, too.

Is there something in particular that's bothering you about your training, or do you just not trust yourself?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:22 PM   #3
HarlieG
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Re: really strugling

Brian,

You don't say how long you have been training either aikido or kali.
My Sensei always makes a point of saying that you can't control uke, you can only control yourself.....and to me, that is the beauty of aikido. You give yourself choices about how you react to an attack.

If you 'fear' Kali so much....why not put off training Kali until you are more experienced in aikido. However, my guess is that you kind of like the stronger, harder style....which is why you keep posting here with the same issue. So, why not just admit it to yourself and focus on Kali for awhile, and when you are more mature, temper your knowledge with aikido?

While I have no problem with training multiple martial arts, I think being 'new' in two arts at one time is confusing and hard to internalize...like trying to learn French and Greek at the same time.

Mehter Sensei is a very good teacher and has a wide range of martial arts in his background. Why not get his thoughts?

HarlieG
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:21 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Re: really strugling

IMHO, you cannot see the light at the end until you walk further down the tunnel.

Osho would say there is no light, no tunnel, no one asking, and no one answering.

O'Sensei would say there is only the training.

Quit worrying about a situation that hasn't happened yet. Train with no end result in mind. Just train in either, both, or neither.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:35 PM   #5
Mark Uttech
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Re: really strugling

It helps to stick with a single art for ten years. That is how I handled the thoughts of training in other traditions. I simply told myself that after ten years of aikido, if I wanted to try kyudo, or something else, just go ahead. I am now in my third round of 'ten years of aikido'.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:53 AM   #6
aikishrine
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Re: really strugling

Well there are some good thoughts here, as well as on my other threads, i promise this will be the last one on this subject,
as far as training is concerned i have been training in AIKIDO for about 14 years and KALI for about 6 mos.
i have indeed talked to my Sensei, and he doesnt mind what people train in, he just wants people to train. i guess i will just continue to train and see where it all leads me, thanks so much for all of your advice
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:38 AM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Re: really strugling

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
i will just continue to train and see where it all leads me,
You have now harmonized and neutralize the dualities. Compliments.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:41 AM   #8
aikishrine
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Re: really strugling

thank you Lynn, i believe so as well
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:51 AM   #9
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: really strugling

Ganbatte kudasai!
or as us Pinoys say:
Kaya mo yan, pare!

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:06 AM   #10
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Re: really strugling

Why are you afraid of kali overtaking your reactions?

Are you afraid of hurting someone else? Are you afraid of the emotional repercussions if you kill someone in self defense?

Don't even think about these things when a violent attack comes.

Fight with your head first. Assess the situations. Do what you need to do and use the skills you have developed to competency to do it.

Relax.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:49 AM   #11
aikishrine
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Re: really strugling

exactly i am affraid of hurting or maiming or killing someone
but that goes for AIKIDO as well as KALI
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:27 AM   #12
Michael McCaslin
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Re: really strugling

Maybe this will help:

There are people in the world who make bad decisions. Sometimes these bad decisions cause them to get hurt. One example might be heroin addiction. If a person does heroin long enough, it's going to cost him his life. In the end, he must take responsibility for that. In other words, no matter how many people lose their lives to heroin this year, it doesn't make you a bad person. Now, it's possible, and some feel right, for you to feel compassion and concern for a heroin addict. I think most people would agree that it's wrong to abuse or ridicule someone in the throes of addiction.

Where I am going with this is that just like becoming addicted to heroin is a bad decision that can cost a person his health or even his life, likewise attacking another person (for the sake of argument, you) is a bad decision that can cost someone his health or life. And, just like drug addiction, the ultimate responsibility for the outcome lies with the attacker, not the defender. As with the addict, you should show all the compassion and concern for the attacker that you can safely show. But there may come a time when a person puts you in a situation where only one of you is going home. If that day comes, you want it to be you.

I believe you should have as many tools in your self defense tool box as you can wrap your head around. They are all just options. I also believe that you should do everything in your power to avoid conflicts, and to deescalate the ones you can't avoid. Certainly if you can control someone without hurting him, that's ideal and you should do it. The problem is, to control someone without hurting him requires you to have all the variables (skill, armament, environment) in your favor. If you don't, you're in a survival situation, and you have to bring everything into it you can in hopes that you will make it out of it.

Sure, it's unquestionably wrong to execute someone who you could easily deal with in some other way (ideally by not being there). But I believe it's equally wrong to have your family have to carry on as best they can without you because you got killed by someone who operates from a different moral paradigm. I realize not everyone will agree, but I wanted to put this in front of you for consideration. Good luck.

Michael
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:19 AM   #13
James Davis
 
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Re: really strugling

Quote:
Michael McCaslin wrote: View Post
.

Sure, it's unquestionably wrong to execute someone who you could easily deal with in some other way (ideally by not being there). But I believe it's equally wrong to have your family have to carry on as best they can without you because you got killed by someone who operates from a different moral paradigm.
Well said.
Quote:
Michael McCaslin wrote: View Post
.
I realize not everyone will agree
Michael
I certainly do.

People just need to love themselves enough to engage in effective self-defense. Not only should we consider what our families will go through without us, we should consider what our mindset would be if we were defending our families.

If someone doesn't have enough self respect do defend theirself, they need to explore where they can put their mind to change that.

Chances are, when we consider protecting someone else, our propensity to take action increases. I know that's true, for me at least, when I think about protecting my wife or my daughter.

Hurting somebody shouldn't be pleasant, but we should always be prepared to do so, provided that's what's required to get us home alive.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:25 AM   #14
Cyrijl
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Re: really strugling

Brian,
In all seroiusness, after that last post. I think you should consider talking to a professional mental health expert. The people on this forum (well most of them) I think are not suited to deal with the issues you are concerned about. Please do not take this as an insult. If you feel that after 14yrs of Aikido that you cannot control yourself and you are overly concerned with 'evilness' in the world, this is not normal.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:20 AM   #15
Michael McCaslin
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Re: really strugling

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Brian,
In all seroiusness, after that last post. I think you should consider talking to a professional mental health expert. The people on this forum (well most of them) I think are not suited to deal with the issues you are concerned about. Please do not take this as an insult. If you feel that after 14yrs of Aikido that you cannot control yourself and you are overly concerned with 'evilness' in the world, this is not normal.
I disagree. I believe thinking about these things is a completely normal part of the process we must go through as part of our self defense training.

If you are doing aikido for spiritual development, social interaction, or just for fun that's perfectly OK. If self defense figures into your reasons for training, then there are some things a responsible person should consider before taking action.

For example, a person who chooses to own a gun should put a great deal of thought into understanding under what circumstances they could hurt or kill another human being. There are people who are so opposed to violence that they would sacrifice themselves or a family member rather than hurt another person. I disagree, but it's not my place to make this decision for them.

Given that martial arts are capable of hurting or killing someone, the same issue needs to be considered when a person decides to get serious about self defense.

It may not be pleasant to think about, but I believe you should get comfortable with your decisions now while you have time to think about all the implications rather than trying to sort everything out after you've reacted to a situation.

Aikido has a much higher proportion of people committed to non-violence than other martial arts, although there are people in the aikido community who are very pro self-defense. Unfortunately, many martial artists (and not just in aikido) have very unrealistic ideas about the nature of violent attacks and self defense, and tend to train in ways that reinforce these misconceptions. This can lead to a culture of moral superiority because people honestly think they can bring most any violent situation to a nonviolent solution.

In this respect, I think Brian's kali exposure may have been a bit of a wake up call. Violence is not the sterile shomenuchi into a shihonage and the attacker learns a lesson and is sent on his way we often practice in the dojo. Violence is fast, ugly, and brutal. It's a zero sum game except in special circumstances. There's a reason we strive to avoid violence-- it's nasty stuff. On the other hand, in today's world it's not completely up to you whether you end up in a violent situation. There are people out there willing to put you in one against your will. Getting out of it alive may require you to meet them on their level. Believe me, I hope and pray that day never comes for me or anyone else. I do train for it, though, and I don't think it makes me a bad person. In truth, I think it makes me a better person because my decision to reject violence is not a default choice since there are other options available to me.

Brian, my heart goes out to you. These are not easy decisions to make and no one can make them for us. You should be commended for having the courage to consider what many people just sort of sweep under the rug. Whatever you decide to do, I hope that decision brings you peace. One important thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about low probability events here. Not only are they low probability, but we can (and should) conduct ourselves in ways that make that small probability even smaller. Still, I can't 100% rule out the possibilty, so I have decided to do what I can to increase my chances of survival. No matter what you decide, I respect and support your decision. The world would truly be a better place if everyone put as much consideration into their actions as you are. Good luck.
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:59 AM   #16
James Davis
 
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Re: really strugling

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
exactly i am affraid of hurting or maiming or killing someone
but that goes for AIKIDO as well as KALI
You know what really helped me with this issue?

Training with kids.

An eleven year old can be just as angry as any adult. They can want to hurt you just as much, and they're just as likely to act on these desires.

No matter what anger they feel, no matter what action they take...

You don't get to knock out a kid.

Imagine yourself, Kali sticks in hand, with a screeching kid making a bee-line for your knee with the intention of kicking it out from under you. You don't want to get hurt, you don't want to hurt them, and you don't want them to hurt themselves...

Train accordingly.

Even when I train in Tae Kwon Do, I'm thinking about the techniques I could be doing. Of course, I do my best to follow the TKD rules, but I still think of a better way to deal with a person trying to kick me rather than just kicking them back, harder.

Once, while I was sparring a young lady that I'd just met who was much more skilled in TKD than myself, I came to the sudden conclusion that she was gonna take my head off if I didn't do something fast! I spread my arms out just a little bit, making the big blue dot on my hogo a tempting target. When she sent out a front snap kick, I slapped her foot to the side, slipped in behind her, grabbed her wrist and sent her to the mat as gently as I could with sumi otoshi. She didn't know that I was an aikidoka, so this was a complete surprise. She popped up from the floor, her eyes wide open with a smile from ear to ear, and said,

"Whattheheckwasthatallabout?!"

I was new to the punch and kick stuff. I was uncomfortable with her feet flying around my face. Frankly, I got scared.

But knocking her out wasn't an option. I don't get to hurt people unless I have to. If I have to hurt people, people will get hurt. That's it.

Brian, I can't speak for other people on this site, but if you have to hurt someone because it's your only course of action that will get you home alive...

I'm not gonna hold it against you.

Train safely. Try to learn how to deal with people as nicely as possible. Do everything you can. Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst, too.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #17
dbotari
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Re: really strugling

To there seems something fundamental missing in this discussion. Aikido is budo. Budo taches not only a bunch of techniques and principles designed to be used in effective self defense (the physical aspect). It also is supposed to teach maturity and restraint in how we deal with our opponents (mental and philosophical). The tow aspects are both part of a budo (Aikido in this case). An emphasis of one over the other means (at least to me) that you aren't studying a Budo.

If all you are worried about is effective physical responses than I think that is more of a Jutsu mentality than a Do. If on the other hand if you wax poetically about the spiritual and the philosophic and train only in that vein (e.g. "Aikido is a spiritual practice not a martial art") then you are really just studying a philosophy. Budo is both not one or the other. If you train that way then as one progresses and one's ability to physically harm increases there should also be an equal development in one's "martial" maturity that tempers your physical abilities.

A long time ago when I was a young buck, I studied Karate. In a discussion with a friend about how he felt the "itch" to get into "mix-ups" so as to have some fun and test his skill, he asked me if I ever felt the same way. I told him that I often felt like "trying out" my skills in a fight but that I would not unless it was necessary to defend myself or someone else. He asked why. I said "because I know the damage that I can do - I study budo and my training is not something I play at. It is life and death. Remembering that allows me to control the urge to go out and 'mix it up'."

FWIW

Dan
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:30 PM   #18
aikishrine
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Re: really strugling

WOW you have all been extremely helpful, i am indebted to you all.

my thoughts are becoming more and more clear, i now realize that i should just train to train and let what comes come, AIKIDO and its philosophy are what drives me in all of my everyday endevours. i will use KALI as a supplement, as with JUDO and a couple other arts i will at least try, but at all times try to put my heart and AIKIDO into all that i pursue, martial, Budo, or otherwise. agian thnk you all, Brian
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