Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-16-2007, 08:09 PM   #1
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,085
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
Did O'Sensei ever have to physically defend himself with any of the martial techniques he practiced? I know he did in some of what could be fairy tales, but howabout in reality? I'm curious.

Drew
You mean did he ever get into any fights? Sure - but you have to realize that by the time he was really professing "peace" he was well into his 60's, so that kind of thing really wouldn't have been an issue. I do know for a fact that many of his young students got into brawls while under his tutelage, with his knowledge.

Also, Japanese are often more comfortable with seemingly incompatible positions than westerners are. For example, several of his young students after the war got into a brawl with members from another dojo. After scolding them severely he went up to one of the students and said something along the lines of "OK, so how many did you get?".

Kisshomaru, FWIW, stated flatly that his father was not a pacifist.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2007, 08:53 PM   #2
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:

Kisshomaru, FWIW, stated flatly that his father was not a pacifist.

Best,

Chris
He didn't have to state that. Any pacifist either lives an extremely sheltered, anonymous life or dies young. What I would like to know is whether O'Sensei ever used ikkyo, shihonage, or the like on an actual attacker. Again, this is not something I need to know, I'm just curious.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 11:19 AM   #3
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,085
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
He didn't have to state that. Any pacifist either lives an extremely sheltered, anonymous life or dies young. What I would like to know is whether O'Sensei ever used ikkyo, shihonage, or the like on an actual attacker. Again, this is not something I need to know, I'm just curious.

Drew
A specific technique? I don't know - but Shioda certainly did. Others too, but I mention him because he documented it in writing.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 02:47 PM   #4
graham
 
graham's Avatar
Dojo: Northampton Ki Aikido Club
Location: Northampton
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 134
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
He didn't have to state that. Any pacifist either lives an extremely sheltered, anonymous life or dies young.
Do you mean, like the sprightly Gandhi, Desmond Tutu or Andre Trocme?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2007, 05:25 PM   #5
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote:
Do you mean, like the sprightly Gandhi, Desmond Tutu or Andre Trocme?
The word pacifist has many connotations and definitions. Search them all, and you'll surely know what I mean.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 08:20 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Any pacifist either lives an extremely sheltered, anonymous life or dies young.
Followed by a few examples of pacifists who did not have short lives...I'll add MLK Jr., who while relatively young, lived a fairly long life considering the odds at the time.

Followed by:
Quote:
The word pacifist has many connotations and definitions. Search them all, and you'll surely know what I mean.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pacifist

searched, but did not find what you mean. Would you care to elaborate??

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 11:27 AM   #7
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
searched, but did not find what you mean. Would you care to elaborate??
Well, I'm not him, but I have a perception that some people have a certain loading on the word pacifist that I don't necessarily agree with. The definition of pacificist is pretty clear, I think. The question is more about motive and action.

Pacifism is a belief. A belief that peaceful resolution of conflict is correct resolution of conflict.

People who I think of as anti-pacifists often (though not always) think that the motive behind pacifism is cowardice. Not being willing to stand up for your rights. I personally believe that's kind of wrong-headed itself since pacifists often have to put up with a lot of abuse in order to defend their own belief.

But, in general, I think it's a mistake to read too much of a person's motive for belief from the belief itself.

The action resulting from pacifism is more salient, I think. Being opposed to conflict necessarily means that you will avoid conflict when it is possible. But a realistic pacifist will realize that not everyone is a pacifist and that it is therefore necessary to resolve violent conflict sometimes. When someone throws a punch at you, you need to do something about it. Standing there and taking the punch might not help (I was going to say "doesn't help", but I know of at least one situation in my own life where it *did* help, so...).

I think another mistake that both pacifists and anti-pacifists make is believing that pacifism and passiveness are synonyms. I really believe this may be the source of a lot of confusion on the subject.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 11:47 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

I don't really suffer from that delusion...look at Ghandi and MLK Jr...they both were all about conflict, confrontation, etc. The difference was in HOW they did those things...and WHAT they did when those conflicts and confrontations led to violence by others.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 12:01 PM   #9
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I don't really suffer from that delusion
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you did. Sorry if it seemed that way. The comments about those delusions were pointed a different direction altogether. Well, actually, they were more being waved about indiscriminately than pointed, really.

Good thing it wasn't a firearm.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 12:13 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Lol

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 01:19 PM   #11
MikeLogan
 
MikeLogan's Avatar
Location: Rochester, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 281
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Excellent post, Michael, a perfect or as near perfect parsing out of people's confusion on the topic of pacifism and passiveness.
The following is from Bronson Diffin's signature, it is my favorite line on the topic:
Quote:
Yukiyoshi Takamura wrote:
"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
And in this quote from another pacifism thread:
Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
1) Morihei Ueshiba trained with weapons daily until the end of his life.
2) Kisshomaru Ueshiba stated specifically that his father was not a pacifist. See this posting by Ellis Amdur:

"I recall a presentation 2nd Doshu gave to the Japan Martial Arts Society in the 1980's, and someone raised his hand as asked just when it was that Osensei became a pacifist. After the translation, Doshu looked rather puzzled, and asked for clarification, and the question was asked again. Doshu seemed to be suppressing giggles, and said, in effect that his father was never a pacifist, nor was aikido a pacifist practice. "After all, it is a martial art," he said. He then continued on to say, vaguely but accurately that his father created something new, that was outside the dualism of violence and non-violence."
I wonder how likely it may be that something got lost in translation. Heck, even english speakers may not hear the spoken words 'passivism and pacifism' as distinguished from one another. There is barely consensus on what pacifism means in our culture, and since it is so closely related on how to deal with disagreement, what happens when you disagree on it's very meaning?

Anyhow, Good Post!

michael.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 01:44 PM   #12
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Quote:
I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence....I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour. But I believe that nonviolence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. Forgiveness adorns a soldier...But abstinence is forgiveness only when there is the power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature.... But I do not believe India to be helpless....I do not believe myself to be a helpless creature....Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
- Mahatma Gandhi, August 11, 1920
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 01:45 PM   #13
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Who was it that said something like "A true pacifist is someone who, with skill and knowledge, can kill in the blink of an eye yet choose not to"
Brilliant quote
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 01:48 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Yukiyoshi Takamura ...from about 3 posts up...



B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 03:29 PM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Here is something to think about from a book I am reading.

Quote:
Nonviolence is not the same thing as pacifism, for which there are many words. Pacifism is treated almost as a psychological condition, It is a state of mind. Pacifism is passive, but nonviolence is active. Pacifism is harmless and therefore easier to accept then nonviolence, which is dangerous. When Jesus Christ said that a victim should turn the other cheek, he was preaching pacifism. But when he said that an enemy should be won over through the power of love, he was preaching nonviolence
From a book called "Nonviolence"by Mark Kurlansky 2006

Based on this: Ghandi, MLK and the others in this category would be practicing nonviolence, not pacifism.

Pacifism would be practiced by some like the Amish who choose to turn the other cheek and choose not to participate in the social structure that supports their lifestyle. That is, the choose to not playball and be non-active.

Nonviolence confronts violence, it does not avoid it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 03:35 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Interesting quote...and viewpoint. Is there anything in particular about Mark Kurlansky that would add validity to his opinion?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 03:53 PM   #17
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Dali Lama wrote the Forward to the book??

The Dali Lama had this to say in the last paragraph of his foreward:

Quote:
It is my hope and prayer that this book should not only attract attention, but have a profound effect on those who read it. A sign of success would be that whenever conflict and disagreements arise, our first reaction will be to ask ourselves how we can solve them through dialogue and discussion rather than through force.
So I assume, that the Dali Lama agrees with this definition/concept.

Does that help Ron?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 04:10 PM   #18
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Not really...I guess I was hoping for a better idea of the writer...guess I should read the book!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 04:31 PM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

I don't think he is anyone special in this field per se.

He has essentially written a bunch of books (nonfiction) that he has researched and written. Like "Salt: A world history" or "The Basque History of the World".

Here is an Amazon link to the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolence-Le...e=UTF8&s=books

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2007, 04:38 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Ron, I think conceptually I agree with him. Although I suppose that would depend on your definition/parameters of pacifism vice nonviolence.

I can see validilty in his separation point based on action (nonviolence) versus no action (pacifism).

I would tend to label aikido philosophy in the nonviolent realm vice pacifism.

Aikido is not about avoiding violence, but approaching it skillfully.

pacifism based on this definition is one in which aikido could not even exsist as a concept as it would be no-action...or simply standing their while you are attacked.

I do think it is a key concept to discuss and understand.

I had this conversation just yesterday with one of my Captains that works for me. He could not understand and thought I was hippocritical I suppose for being a Vegetarian, that believed in nonviolence, yet I was in the military.

I had to explain the concept of pacifism versus non-violence.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 01:02 AM   #21
MikeLogan
 
MikeLogan's Avatar
Location: Rochester, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 281
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Ron, I think conceptually I agree with him. Although I suppose that would depend on your definition/parameters of pacifism vice nonviolence.

I can see validilty in his separation point based on action (nonviolence) versus no action (pacifism).
To sum up my first post, it seems to continually boil down to nomenclature. To-may-to versus to-mah-to.

And aside from that, in the strictest logical/gramatical treatment of the words involved: Pacifism VS Non-Violence; only pacifism actually allows for violence to occur, non-violence by logic implying the negative of violence. But yet again, one can argue that both terms represent a means for the negation of violence,

The "no-action" category in which Kurlansky places pacifism, as far as I identify it (and, perhaps, Mr Riehle), would better contain the idea of passivism. English is rather screwy.

My idea of pacifism is a state from which one is willing&able to enact will/force toward some end with only the violence necessary to resolve an event. e.g. no curb-jobs

Kurlansky's idea of pacifism seems more to the point of simply screaming "Please, just not in the face! Not in the face!"

I guess I'll have to read up on the origin of pacifism as a popular term.

michael.

P.S. Weren't the Marines partially founded by a Quaker, who are generally considered pacifist, if only because they've been around far longer than the term "non-violent".
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 04:00 AM   #22
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 802
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Quote From above:
Quote:
A sign of success would be that whenever conflict and disagreements arise, our first reaction will be to ask ourselves how we can solve them through dialogue and discussion rather than through force.
But the reality is that this only happens once the balance of power that prevents voilence necessitates discussion.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 08:33 AM   #23
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yukiyoshi Takamura ...from about 3 posts up...



B,
R
Ta mate! Must get myself some better specs or improve my speed reading
Tony
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 08:56 AM   #24
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,640
Offline
Re: Aikido and Pacifism

A Pacifist is one who believes in Peace rather than War. Of course everyone says he believes in Peace, but if that were really true, we wouldn't run willy nilly into conflicts at the drop of a hat, which mankind clearly does.

The number of wars like WWII in which there is a clear demarcation between good and evil are few. Most wars are the result of maneuvering for position and influence in defense of the riches belonging to the top stratum of the societies in question (like WWI) and have no function or benefit to the poor folks involved. Sorry if this sounds very "Lefty"... so-called Socialist or Communist governments haven't been any better about this than anyone else so it's not really a left - right issue.

In the words of Maj General Smedly Butler, the most decorated Marine in Corps history, "War is a racket". (He wrote an article by that title which can be found on-line.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/ar...risaracket.htm
This is pretty much my view on War and that would make me basically a Pacifist.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2007, 09:31 AM   #25
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Guns?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Followed by a few examples of pacifists who did not have short lives...I'll add MLK Jr., who while relatively young, lived a fairly long life considering the odds at the time.

Followed by:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pacifist

searched, but did not find what you mean. Would you care to elaborate??

Best,
Ron
And they (the dictionaries) are all wrong: pacifist derives from pax (peace) and facere (to make), so a pacifist is not someone who refuses to engage, but someone who makes peace. There is no reason for a pacifist to be not-self-defensive or not-protective. While you can find examples in personal violence to be pacifistic and defensive, it is hard to find the line in a war, which nation could have ever been making peace by de-escalation and not enforcing the own victory. While you might find single people, who tried their best to do so.

Best regards

Dirk
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido and being Christian Nick Spiritual 178 07-31-2010 07:47 PM
Poll: Does aikido contain an ethical code for you to follow? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 18 11-09-2006 06:36 AM
Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward Red Beetle General 358 10-10-2006 12:43 PM
Politics in Aikido practice Pdella General 27 08-22-2005 05:32 PM
Without this, No Aikido senshincenter General 105 03-15-2005 11:15 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:52 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate