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Old 02-28-2007, 10:12 AM   #1
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Attention UK Aikidoka

There is a proposed ban on bladed weapons here in the UK. To sign the petition against this please visit

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/swords

-sorry if i have broken any rules by posting this.

Peace and love

Jo.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:39 AM   #2
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Good.

It won't solve all problems and will have more loopholes than a string vest..but its a step in the right direction.

Peace and Love also.

D
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:06 AM   #3
RoyK
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

I don't understand, poster #1 is against the law and poster #2 is pro the law?
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Old 02-28-2007, 01:33 PM   #4
Cyrijl
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

it is ok to murder as long as you use a blunt instrument

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 02-28-2007, 01:54 PM   #5
Hogan
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

You UK guys need a Constitution that protects your weapon rights...
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:10 PM   #6
Neil Mick
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
You UK guys need a Constitution that protects your weapon rights...
A weapon doesn't have rights... (you have the right to remain sharp...anything you attempt to cut will be held against you...)
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:24 PM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
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UK Sword Ban

The UK Government is thinking of banning swords completely. If you are British, click on the link and sign the petition against it.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/swords/

And spread the word!

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Old 02-28-2007, 02:56 PM   #8
Cyrijl
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

What i think is interesting is the idea that something bladed is a weapon. If you are going to stab someone, then you can just carry a steak knife. Someone who is intent on killing someone probably doesn't care all that much about the aesthetics of the weapon.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:21 PM   #9
Mark Freeman
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

The UK banned handguns a while ago, removing the enjoyment of many sport shooters. It hasn't stopped the spread of gun crime.
The banning of swords will remove the right of martial artists to own and practice with live blades. Will it stop people killing or maiming with bladed weapons? I doubt it.
Signing the petition will not convince the government one way or the other.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:47 AM   #10
happysod
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Mark, that's not like your usual optimistic self... Anyway, I've decided to start breeding attack canaries as the bird lobby is large enough to protect my right to carry birds - any mugger trying to take me on is about to get cuttle-fished

Anyone outside the UK puzzled by our governments penchant for banning it's citizens rights to have anything remotely dangerous in should realise that our law makers are actually true visionaries who found it much easier to create new classes of relatively harmless and easily dealt with criminals (i.e. normal citizens) by passing new directives rather than attempting to deal with the rather nasty and dangerous criminals that already exist whi have a dismaying tendency to ignore existing laws and peoples right to life.

This has a threefold benefit of not only showing the media they're "tough on crime" but giving them access to new reasons to target sub-groups "for our own benefit" while increasing the level of fear in the general populace, making them less likely object to further erosion of their liberties in order to feel safe.

Anyone from the UK who feels I'm being overly cynical, ask yourselves whether you and your peer group feel more safe following the various tightening of various gun and knife laws than before they were passed.
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:04 AM   #11
Taliesin
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

To be honest I do believe that 'Blue Labour' - Britains current Tory Government do have the tendnace to pass laws instead of tackling problemes - as a kind of legislative incontinence.

The questions to be asked about this new law are.

1. Do we already have an adequate law to tackle this issue?

According to my, albeit limited, understanding of Britians Criminal Law there is already a criminal offence of possession of an offencive weapon (anything made or adapted for the purposes of causing harm).

2. Are there any other steps that can be taken to address the problem? (eg more frequent police patrols with the purpose of preventing crimes rather than 'a fire-brigade' policing of charging to the scene after an offence has occurred).

3. Are there any potential negative issues? (such as the preception that creating new laws which appear to create more criminals of formely law abiding citizens - I'm not convinced that would be the fact of this new law, but it might well be the preception).

4. What effect would it have - would it substantially or even reasonably minimise the number of people carrying swords (and/or knives).

5. And since we are talking about the UK - maybee we should ne 'tough on the causes of crime' - unfortunaltey that would mean trying to re-establish a concept of community (although that would mean abandoning the cherished Thatcherite philosophy that 'there is no such thing as society', that 'love of money is the root of all virtue' and worst of all of accepting that the purpose of a Government is to ensure the best quality of life possible for it's citizens - rather than the greatest profits of business)
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Old 03-01-2007, 06:03 AM   #12
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote: View Post
I don't understand, poster #1 is against the law and poster #2 is pro the law?
Thats about the scale of it Roy.

I personally remain unconvinced as to why anyone in general public really needs swords or guns for that matter.

Regulated activity within clubs etc is a different thing perhaps. and I'm pro when it comes to the Police having them.

I'm sure others view it differently and have much stronger opinions than me.

Bring them on and I'll read with interest.

Regards

D
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:47 AM   #13
Cyrijl
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Yes Daren, but if blades are made illegal you won't have them within clubs because you won't be able to get them to and from the club.

The idea is ridiculous since for a bladed weapon, the line between weapon and tool is almost invisible and relies heavily on intent. This is much different than a gun, which generally serves one purpose. It is pretty hard to cut down a tree with a gun.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:26 AM   #14
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

I don't own any bladed weapons but i do know of people who frequently practice with them and they are not the people who cause the trouble but will be the people effected if the bill is passed.

I thought i would bring it to the attention of the UK aikido community as i am sure there are a lot of you out there who get much joy from sword practice. Be it in aikido, kendo or iaido kata.

A ban on bladed weapons is not going to solve anything. Criminals do not tend to adhere to laws such as these... kinda why they are criminals.

peace and love

jo
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:37 AM   #15
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

If Britain is anything like the US, the majority of deaths from edged weapons attacks are from domestic kitchen type knives. Then would come improvised weapons like sharpened screw drivers etc.

The number of people stabbed with knives that were actually designed for fighting is very small. We banned switch blades many years ago based on Hollywood's depiction of ganger types even though there were actually almost no real crimes committed with them.

I'd be interested to know what the incidence of injury due to sword violence is in Britain. I'll bet it's another example of legislators solving a non-existent pronlem.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:46 AM   #16
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Yes Daren, but if blades are made illegal you won't have them within clubs because you won't be able to get them to and from the club.

The idea is ridiculous since for a bladed weapon, the line between weapon and tool is almost invisible and relies heavily on intent. This is much different than a gun, which generally serves one purpose. It is pretty hard to cut down a tree with a gun.
Doubtless there would be some work around.

I remain unconvinced that anyone really needs to own a real sword but open to persuasion otherwise.

D
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:58 AM   #17
Hogan
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
...I'd be interested to know what the incidence of injury due to sword violence is in Britain. I'll bet it's another example of legislators solving a non-existent pronlem.
I was watching the Prime Minister Question Time the other day, & member of Parliament was asking the PM when was he going to do something about the problem of violence from blades - evidently there are more deaths in the UK from blades than from guns, the member said. He didn't say sword deaths, but nontheless, it doesn't surprise me they will ban them at some point. 5 pounds it'll be baseball bats next....
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:59 AM   #18
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If Britain is anything like the US, the majority of deaths from edged weapons attacks are from domestic kitchen type knives. Then would come improvised weapons like sharpened screw drivers etc.

The number of people stabbed with knives that were actually designed for fighting is very small. We banned switch blades many years ago based on Hollywood's depiction of ganger types even though there were actually almost no real crimes committed with them.

I'd be interested to know what the incidence of injury due to sword violence is in Britain. I'll bet it's another example of legislators solving a non-existent pronlem.
Hi George

No argument with your comments on domestic implements. Always going to be the case unless we stop eating with knives and forks.

Legislators solving a non existant problem. Well - maybe blowing it out of proportion.

But it does happen....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/feb2000/uk-f01.shtml

If you can see this, its one of a few such cases reported in recent years. I believe we had a similar one in Croydon more recently too if anyone wants to search for murder sword and croydon.

Anyway - I'm sure its a tiny fraction of the murders in the UK...but if it could make a difference then why not?

And so far no one has really come up with a reason that I can see to prevent them living without one.

Respectful regards

D
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:33 AM   #19
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I was watching the Prime Minister Question Time the other day, & member of Parliament was asking the PM when was he going to do something about the problem of violence from blades - evidently there are more deaths in the UK from blades than from guns, the member said. He didn't say sword deaths, but nontheless, it doesn't surprise me they will ban them at some point. 5 pounds it'll be baseball bats next....
Well John ...since you mention it....with our world famous reputation as a great baseball playing nation to protect ....I wonder if there are any stats available to indicate how many baseball bats sold in the UK are purchased for baseball? I'll match your fiver with one of my own to guess its less than 20 percent

Cheers

D
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:32 AM   #20
happysod
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
2. Are there any other steps that can be taken to address the problem? (eg more frequent police patrols with the purpose of preventing crimes rather than 'a fire-brigade' policing of charging to the scene after an offence has occurred).
Now this one rings a biig bell - due to aikido (for which I'll never forgive it fully) I've come into contact with various members of our boys in blue in a rather more social atmosphere than I ever thought I would when younger. One of the more common complaints I've heard at the moment is policing by tabloid where the latest headline grabs the biggest police resources so "incidentals" like community policing and long-term social initiatives are dropped in favour of the latest task force..
Quote:
And so far no one has really come up with a reason that I can see to prevent them living without one.
And you're totally correct if you assume a government has a mandate to legislate against any and all items and activities which may cause it's citizens harm.

However, where do you draw the line? The same group which are in favour of this ban have also mooted the point that martial arts in general should be banned. I can't actually recall a single instance of a trained sword practitioner being involved in any of these very headline grabbing articles and to be honest, if I was wishing to use a sword illegally, give me a piece of sheet metal, some wood, tape and a few hours I can quite easily make something suitable for the purpose.

As David said, there are already the laws to cover illegal use of weapons - all the new laws to date have done is conspired against is the genuine hobbyist or collector.

Finally, with regard to your baseball query, you may be suprised at the sheer number of not only baseball but also softball teams that do exist in the UK. Softball in particular has a growing following as one of the better mixed sports.

Anyway, for sheer ease of use/concealability cf damage provided I'd definitely suggest a rounders bat instead - a truely handy, pocket sized bat which has such a noncy name and reputation that explaining it away is childs play.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:53 AM   #21
Taliesin
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Joseph wrote

"The idea is ridiculous since for a bladed weapon, the line between weapon and tool is almost invisible and relies heavily on intent."

Personally I think that for a 'bladed object' the key element is intent. However that can most reasonably inferred througth circumstance, meaning the diffence would not be nearly invisible

After all if i'm carrying a brand new kitchen knife home - all wrapped up in it's packaging, in a carrier bag at 4pm on a week day afternoon. It's reasonable to conclude I'm taking it home.

If I'm carrying the same knife concealled in my jacket at 1pm in the morning in a dark street - there can still be a legal presumption of intent.

So you end up with a situation where circumstances can have greater relevance than the actual object as far as intent is concerned.

I'd also take the point that the key circumstances as to whether the bladed object is intended as a tool or a weapon would be accessability of use.

If my sword is sheathed, and in a carrying case that is closed and it would take me 5 minuetes to get it out - it would be hard to say I'm carrying it as a weapon to attack someone.

So by and large I'd stick with the law we have since it provides for both arrest and discretion rather than introducing a new law covering the same situations. (although I might ammend the punishments and defences)
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:49 PM   #22
Mark Freeman
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

David, you are right in your iterpretation of the law, we have a full explanation posted up in our H.Q dojo, so that we are all aware of it.

The current laws covering offensive weapons are adequate to deal with just about anything that can be construed as a weapon. But this government which has introduced over 3500 new offences since coming into power have 'targets' to reach, and you know how much they are slaves to them!

regards,

Mark
p.s. I want some of Ian's attack canaries as soon as he gets the breeding right. However, I fear that there is a backbencher already drawing up a white paper to restrict my right to own a feathered object!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-02-2007, 04:33 AM   #23
Dazzler
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
. However, I fear that there is a backbencher already drawing up a white paper to restrict my right to own a feathered object!
Is it an old fashioned dart Mark? You bad bad man!
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Old 03-02-2007, 05:47 AM   #24
deepsoup
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Could someone post a link to details of this proposed ban? There seems to be something going on in the Scottish parliament, but I couldn't find anything at Westminster. (I didn't spend a lot of time looking though.)

The No 10 petitions thingy is new, and there are lots of petitions going on about 'proposals' that don't actually exist. (I'm thinking here of the petition against a ban on photography in public, which isn't likely to make much difference because no one is proposing such a ban).

If its a Scottish parliament thing, petititoning the PM is even more pointless than usual. (Bearing in mind that if you get up to 2 million signatures, the response will be an email explaining that he is listening, no no really he is, but he's still going to ignore you all sorry.)

If you really care about something, its much more effective to write letters to the relevant ministers. A response of as little as 8 individuals' letters is considered 'significant', and the minister has to respond to each one individually. ie: each individual letter a person writes is more likely to have an effect than the whole petition no matter how big it gets.

Just a thought.

BTW:
George Ledyard is of course correct. I'd also like to take this rare opportunity to agree with John Hogan: we do need a written constitution, though the right to bear arms, or arm bears is the very least that we need it to protect.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:25 AM   #25
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Re: Attention UK Aikidoka

Sounds like some politician is just trying to get his name in the paper to show his constituency that he isnt sleeping thru law making sessions. Instead of creating laws or programs to further the economy, this politician decides to get his 15 mins of fame taking on bladed weapons.

If the movie Braveheart didnt spark a massive jump in claymore related hacking deaths, then I think the UK should be safe.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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