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Old 03-08-2007, 11:46 AM   #76
KIT
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

OK, I'll chime in here now that my e-mail problem has been rectified.

Frankly, folks, on the Internet it is perfectly reasonable to question ANY talk of "real skills" when applied in a "real" context. Posting about MMA, BJJ, Judo, whatever is rather easy, is it not? In some circles it seems to be enough simply to conjure up that you have "worked with" someone that practices these things as "proof" of some special TMA, Internal, or modern combatives skillset. Hence the "I've gone against a BJJ-trained guy and did well..."

Okay, How many? Who were they (what club)? What rank? Were they competitive? Or was it just some guy in your aikido dojo who has done a little cross training in BJJ?

Go to one of the MMA or BJJ forums and start talking about "what you can do" and you'll be laughed off the board unless you present evidence of exactly whom you learned it from, and whom you've done it to. No offense is intended, but giving the names or testimonials of aikidoka or Taiji practitioners doesn't hold much weight. Nor will the names of white belts or soccer moms that train at the local "cardio-MMA" outfit.

Talk is cheap, internet blather cheaper still. Besides, all the internal power in the world doesn't mean you can fight, and it doesn't mean that it is even the most efficient or practical way to train to fight, either.

Now I will say this - Rob John is a man of action, not words, or bandwidth. At least he willingly puts it on the line outside of the scripted exercises, and let's the chips fall where they will. I want to give him his props publicly.

I had a great time at the seminar in Seattle. I was reminded of some things from my past CMA training (Josh Lerner and I had a few sympatico moments where we were thinking the same things out loud), and got some new things.

Not that I am going to run out and start doing internal arts again - I was only half joking when, during some of the particularly painful adjustments of posture and movement here and there, I groaned that I remembered why I didn't do internal arts anymore.

Rob is more than willing to take solid hits, telling you to strike or kick him harder during demos. For a little guy, he has great structure. That in and of itself isn't fighting, but some of that static skill will no doubt transfer. Lots of internal guys do this kind of thing, but Rob goes further.

He was more than up for rolling and several of us took the opportunity at the end of the day. Rob readily admits he doesn't really grapple much, and he has only been training with Ark for three years (correct me if I am wrong, Rob, I thought that is what I heard.) Rob and I got to roll a few times, then did some standup with pulled striking. I got to watch him roll with other folks as well.

My exact words were that he is "squirrelly." He effectively uses his skills to evade bad positions, not get tied up, and does some unusual things that you don't expect from a more "conventional" grappling standpoint.

Here is where I think the real gem in what he is doing may lie. There is a foundation of effective "anti-grappling" within his skill set that would work well in an MMA or real world self defense context if done along with effective striking and movement. I'd love to roll again with him in a few more years and see where he has gone with it, or with Ark if he makes it out to the West Coast of the USA, as is being talked about.

I think we agreed that once tied up, in a clinch, or on your back with a guy on top of you, you are better off with a technical basis in grappling skills to make the internal stuff work You need to know the set ups for submissions and how to escape when a strong position or sub is being consolidated.

In a way it is kind of like the old "foul tactics" argument. The gouges, the pressure points, the biting, and the titty twisting and gonad grabbing will not be effective in an actual clinch or ground fight with a skilled practitioner unless you have a concomitant technical grappling base to work from - either using them to make space or from a dominant position.

Anyway, that's the .02 from a BJJ/Judo guy who is generally not very impressed with all the talk of "baseline skills" as applied to resistive fighting/combatives. I think doing this kind of work is valuable, moreso from a sports performance and injury prevention and maintenance (posture and structure go a long way towards minimizing the latter) perspective. But it has a tendency to become a fetish unto itself, with the combative application taking a back seat.

Lastly, I would like to add one more name to the list of "modern internal" exponents - Tim Cartmell. Tim comes regularly to Seattle now for seminars, teaching both standing and ground grappling as well as applications of internal fighting arts. His focus is much more on practical application versus the internal development exercises, but he can and will teach the latter in privates.

Last edited by KIT : 03-08-2007 at 11:54 AM.
 
Old 03-08-2007, 12:07 PM   #77
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
If you can hook me up I'm all for it!
Actually if you can hook me up with any wrestling champs I'll owe you more than a couple beers
Most likely I'll be in either east or west coast, but if you know any peeps that have an in on that scene in the area let me know
Robert,
My wrestling days are long over and my old wrestling friends are all out of the game as well. However, if you really are interested, go to just about any major university during wrestling season, (around November thru March) show up at the mats and let them know you would like to work out with them. I'm sure they will be most happy to accommodate you. We use to have the occasional "walk-on" come through. If you have never tangled with a "wrestler" at the collegiate level, I'm sure it will be an eye opening and educational experience.
 
Old 03-08-2007, 12:35 PM   #78
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Kit, I am with you man! my feelings on this subject almost verbatim!

 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:02 PM   #79
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I'm confused...How is what Kit stated different from what Dan states on a regular basis...Fighting is one thing, training in internal arts another, and sometimes the two can meet in the right person in the right venue?

So, out of 3 strong proponents of this training, two measure up to the whole wrestling, bjj, judo experiences on the mat. But we keep hearing people ask the "how does this measure up, why don't you try it on" question. And yet the people asking the question won't step up THEMSELVES and try it out. Go ask this person, go see the wrestling club here, go to the bjj dojo there...but THEY won't step up?

Sorry, but I see a disconnect here.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:20 PM   #80
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Go to one of the MMA or BJJ forums and start talking about "what you can do" and you'll be laughed off the board unless you present evidence of exactly whom you learned it from, and whom you've done it to. No offense is intended, but giving the names or testimonials of aikidoka or Taiji practitioners doesn't hold much weight. Nor will the names of white belts or soccer moms that train at the local "cardio-MMA" outfit.

Talk is cheap, internet blather cheaper still. Besides, all the internal power in the world doesn't mean you can fight, and it doesn't mean that it is even the most efficient or practical way to train to fight, either.
I tend to avoid these types of conversations, really for no other reason than that I used to fight/compete a lot and I don't say that no one can teach me anything about martial arts unless he can kick my butt. I just know better. I can learn to hit harder from some old guy who can no longer do it very well and not worry that I've lowered my standards. And so on. Not that I don't agree with a large part of what Kit is saying, I just think it closes out too many options.
Quote:
Lots of internal guys do this kind of thing, but Rob goes further.
I don't know "lots of internal guys" in the U.S. I know of almost none, in fact. I know a lot of people who claim to be "internal guys", but I would suggest that you go to a workshop with someone like Wang Hai Jun, Chen Xiao Wang, Li Tai Liang, etc., and see if your personal definition of what an "internal guy" is doesn't change. Seriously. You can't take someone like Rob John who publicly broadcasts that he's just learning a lot of stuff, and extrapolate what an "internal guy" does.
Quote:
Here is where I think the real gem in what he is doing may lie. There is a foundation of effective "anti-grappling" within his skill set that would work well in an MMA or real world self defense context if done along with effective striking and movement.
I like MMA. I watch it. I think sport martial arts are *really* improving and I'm honestly tickled to death about it. But think back a second to the past: The judo/karate/TKD/WC/etc. guys all thought they were the last word in martial arts (forget CMA guys... I have yet to meet a single westerner that really does CMA's, despite all their uniforms and words). Then along comes Royce and Bros and it all changes. BJJ was the last word. Then some people starting compounding skills and you get MMA's... they're now the latest word. You think it's the last word? I don't.

I only have a mainly hobby interest anymore in martial arts and I tend to focus on learning how these odd body skills are done. I don't worry about whose butt I can kick anymore.... but not from the position that I've never done it; because I have done it and it doesn't have that testosterone Macho Banty Rooster appeal anymore. There are still some skills that I see hidden in some of the CMA's that are not in MMA's yet and they would be more than "anti-grappling". I've seen guys put their hands through the sides of 55-gallon drums. I've been hit by guys that have trained some way I still can't decipher but it's definitely one-punch-and-you're-done stuff. MMA's haven't got that, even though they're progressing.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and this latest hot trend is what the guys in the Tang Dynasty were too dumb to figure out. Who knew? Grappling and punching and kicking. Novel idea. Surprised they didn't figure it out.
Quote:
Lastly, I would like to add one more name to the list of "modern internal" exponents - Tim Cartmell. Tim comes regularly to Seattle now for seminars, teaching both standing and ground grappling as well as applications of internal fighting arts. His focus is much more on practical application versus the internal development exercises, but he can and will teach the latter in privates.
I've heard a lot about Tim, since I'm friends of a number of friends of his. I'd like to hear his definition of "internal skills", since I've seen the skills of a number of guys who trained alongside him in Taiwan, Kit.

It's an interesting discussion and you're right to call people out, but still it's also a deep discussion without necessarily short, obvious answers.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:23 PM   #81
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I would not say I would STEP UP, as that I think is the wrong attitude. I will meet them if and when I have the chance.

Two fold, one to be open to listen and to feel what they have from their context.

Second, to have them work within my context to see how it applies.

If we cannot establish the common ground of the second context, that is, to apply the skills within the context that I find useful as criteria to apply...then we are both wasting our time getting together and training.

Personally I don't really think it is fair to put a wrestler per se into the context of internal training and then say wrestlers don't get it, same with BJJer, or Aikidoka.

I have decent High School and College Wrestlers show up all the time to train with me in MMA. Even some decent Greco Roman Guys on occasion. They get thumped hard by submission grappling rules, because their habits don't consider things that are allowed in grappling.

It doesn't mean they don't get baseline skills, only that they have no experience in grappling and must be shown how to do this properly as it is different than grappling.

I think this is what frustrates me so much about this discussion of baseline skills. we can never really define what is baseline, as their are so many perspectives on baseline, we can never agree.

You know watching that guy in the BJJ video earlier today that was a defined as a blue belt (he was wearing a white belt...but okay), I watched him reach out while sitting on the ground and grab the standing internal guys collar. Poor BJJ, very poor in my book, as he over extended and was off his center, easy to take advantage of.

I applaud Rob's efforts at posting a video in response to Justin's challenge, however, as offered, the 1 mn video did not demonstrate much (how could it in all fairness).

I did though see that the so-called internal guy did do many things that were correct and impressive. I especially liked how he moved in to pass the open guard my placing his forearm on the neck and positioning his weight properly to establish a strong base. The guy must have felt like a ton of bricks on the BJJ guy.

Anyway, my point is, we all have a set of criteria upon which we judge things on. Rob offers this as a demo of internal skill against a BJJer. I look at it and say, the guy was NOT a good BJJer, Rob says well you can see the internal skills, I say, yes, but it doesn't count cause he was not a good bjjer...so the argument goes on!

I don't necessarily agree with everything concerning the value of this, or as it is defined as being different, or special, as you know, but Ron, you are correct, at some point we do need to put up or shut up, I do agree with that. Agreeing on the criteria upon which to base the PUT UP, is difficult.

 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:28 PM   #82
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
I don't necessarily agree with everything concerning the value of this, or as it is defined as being different, or special, as you know, but Ron, you are correct, at some point we do need to put up or shut up, I do agree with that. Agreeing on the criteria upon which to base the PUT UP, is difficult.
Hi Kevin, perhaps it is difficult...but then again perhaps not. I have personally heard some of these folks say come...whatever venue, criteria you want...Including 5 ounce gloves...just come. So...I don't think you'll have an issue with the criteria if you show up at the door.

Best,
Ron

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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:29 PM   #83
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Mike,

This is really the crux of the whole problem for me in this statement. Really, really the ONLY thing I have a hard time understanding.

Quote:
I've seen guys put their hands through the sides of 55-gallon drums. I've been hit by guys that have trained some way I still can't decipher but it's definitely one-punch-and-you're-done stuff. MMA's haven't got that, even though they're progressing.
So are you saying that there are guys that have evolved PAST what MMA guys are doing? Guys in China that could possibly render MMA obsolete and useless with their internal skills?

I am reading this wrong?

My logic would be in my basic Infantryman logic, that if it were indeed true, then it would follow that one of thes CMA guys could climb into the ring and demonstrate this.

Is it that they would not want to? Is the reason they have transcended the very need or desire to do this? Money is not important? Fame? Promoting these skills? Or is it that they are so dangerous or secret that they don't want them to get out?

What don't I see in the logic that I am missing?

 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:39 PM   #84
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

[quote=Kevin Leavitt;171066]So are you saying that there are guys that have evolved PAST what MMA guys are doing? Guys in China that could possibly render MMA obsolete and useless with their internal skills?[quote] See, they wouldn't look at it like that, Kevin. Your statement about "evolved past" tells us that you think this recent phenomenon of MMA is the greatest fighting that the planet has ever seen. I thought they had rules in MMA.
Quote:
My logic would be in my basic Infantryman logic, that if it were indeed true, then it would follow that one of thes CMA guys could climb into the ring and demonstrate this.
Yeah, but your "logic" assumes that the whole world thinks like a westerner and has the same values that you do, Kevin. That's a little arrogant. I suggested to you 2 years ago that you go see Chen Xiao Wang the next time he's in Germany. He's been there. You didn't go. You still post that someone has to "show you", but you don't go to where you can be shown.

Regards,

Mike
 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:47 PM   #85
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin, perhaps it is difficult...but then again perhaps not. I have personally heard some of these folks say come...whatever venue, criteria you want...Including 5 ounce gloves...just come. So...I don't think you'll have an issue with the criteria if you show up at the door.

Best,
Ron
Thanks Ron. BTW, just for the record, I don't want to give the impression that I am so shallow that I judge everything by 5 oz gloves and/or BJJ/grappling. I do understand that there is a much larger perspective and many more things and criteria in which to judge things on.

Simply that my criteria may be different than the guy than the other guys.

One thing I find challenging, like yesterday, I had a Hung Gar/JKD guy show up to train with us. we discussed over many months respectfully why he did not agree with grappling/clinching. I sought hard to understand his paradigm and how he thought you should fight. We set up the criteria for sparring in which was an acceptable format, and we rolled.

Impressively, he did many things very well and I could not defeat him as easily as I thought I'd be able to. However, he too was impressed that I was able to control him at will and take him down, get back up, keep him down over and over.

I let him play by his rules and by the end he had accepted the fact that grappling/BJJ was more than just laying on your back and that there was relevance to learning basc ground skills in order to "anti-grapple".

Incidently there where lots of things that would be considered aikido thrown into the mix as we proceeded through the various ranges of fighting.

What I learned that was important, is that I needed to be able to reach him and be able to discuss within his own context of understanding and conditions to show him how what knew applied to his paradigm.

this is MMA if you ask me! and the right way to train.

There is nothing to be gained through an outright challenge. I could have simply gone toe to toe with the guy, trashed him, and I walked away going, hehehe showed him. and he walks away going well....that wouldn't work if we did it like your supposed to.

Just wanted to let you know that I don't view this as a big challenge bunch of garbage.

 
Old 03-08-2007, 02:02 PM   #86
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Mike how is it arrogant? i didn't establish the criteria that compared CMA to western MMA, you did!

I simply posed the question to see if I understood you correctly?

So, if there is arrogance, I see it as yours sense you brought it up

I don't see it as arrogance on your part if you honestly beleive this to be true. Why even make the comparison of CMA to MMA??? that is what I don't get.

Your basic premise I used to think that MMA can learn something from CMA. I am okay with that.

This claim now states that MMA is somehow not as evolved as CMA. That logic proposes a connection of evolution, which would naturally lead to the conclusion that a CMA guy could defeat a MMA guy with one punch and proper internal skill.

Again, where is my arrogance, and what am I really not understanding about this. It seems simple to me.

I am not the one proposing that an MMA guy could beat a CMA guy, you are seemingly presenting the converse.

It ain't up to me to prove it, cause I don't personally have a dog in this, other than a genuine curosity like most people that would love to see a small asian man walk into the ring with say, a 43 year old Randy Couture and blast him across the ring.

If there is evolution past it, I say prove it.

Yes you did offer to me to train with him. I think in the last year, it wasn't two years..but that doesn''t matter. Okay, you got me there, I did not have time. Just like I could not make it to Virginia when you were there. (I was also invited ahead of time btw.)

You had me convinced with all the good things that people are saying about you, including my own instructors!!! guys I respect immensely...but now you bring this into the mix...why go there???

As I just stated in the post above. I am not so shallow as to propose a challenge to anyone, this stuff is a little more complicated than that.

Buuuutttt, if what you are inviting is a challenge in such away, I would love to attend such an event and participate. It would not be the first time that I had my ass handed to me. Frankly the last guy that did, I ended up studying with him, and sitll do! So no big deal to me.

 
Old 03-08-2007, 02:11 PM   #87
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Hi Mike,

I believe you are misreading Kevin, and hence, misjudging him. He certainly does not believe that "MMA is the greatest fighting that the planet has ever seen." As for seeing CXW in Germany, would "seeing" him be sufficient? Wouldn't it be necessary to feel him? And what do you think the chances of Kevin getting to do that would be in a typical large CXW seminar? If I misunderstood you, and in fact it would be possible for Kevin (and I, as well), to feel CXW the next time he comes to DC, then we will be there.

I see that Stephan Berwick is hosting Chen Xiaoxing in early May, but only for weapons training (http://www.truetaichi.com/truetaichiv03_seminars.htm).

Jim

PS To Ron: Please... ease up... on your use of... ellipses. You're beginning to write... like... Dan.
 
Old 03-08-2007, 02:22 PM   #88
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Oh ... NO!!!...run...away...!!!!

Got it.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-08-2007, 02:22 PM   #89
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Oh please don't assume that I don't understand Chinese culture. I do have somewhat of an understanding of it, as much as I can being an American. My young daughter is Chinese, so chinese culture is very important to me and my family.

I also used to work with a Chinese company that did contract work for my company back when I was a civilian many years ago.

I have been to China and have worked with Tawanese military in the past.

Oh forgot to add, my wife and I also regularly communicate with and support my daughter's orphanage in Guixi province. Wonderful people there!

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 03-08-2007 at 02:26 PM.

 
Old 03-08-2007, 07:27 PM   #90
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

I did though see that the so-called internal guy did do many things that were correct and impressive. I especially liked how he moved in to pass the open guard my placing his forearm on the neck and positioning his weight properly to establish a strong base. The guy must have felt like a ton of bricks on the BJJ guy.
Kevin,
I agree that that particular video isn't exactly a sterling example,
that being said, I thought the fact that it being Miyagawa's first time ever going to the ground, would illustrate my point just a bit. Generally people with no grappling experience get tooled on the ground, and Miyagawa can pretty much hang with people that have several more years experience of him.

Glad you liked some of his movement, he never learned them as "techniques" persay but they'Re simply a result of him moving according to maintaing principle within his body.

About him placing his hand on the guys neck, he wasn't actually placing his weight there
(Though you can do that too) Generally we try and "ghost" on top of the guy, and control him without him realizing it. (He doesnt know he's being controlled until he tries to move)
 
Old 03-08-2007, 07:48 PM   #91
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
This claim now states that MMA is somehow not as evolved as CMA. That logic proposes a connection of evolution, which would naturally lead to the conclusion that a CMA guy could defeat a MMA guy with one punch and proper internal skill.
Oh, I don't want to get into this since it becomes obvious you weren't paying attention to what you said. Chinese martial arts were the famous "Chinese Hand", the "Tang Shou Dao" which conquered pretty much all of Asia and their martial arts were brutal, the most powerful the world had seen. Other styles in Asia based off of them and the pedigree of the Chinese arts was measured in thousands of years. Your question was whether Chinese arts had been able to evolve past MMA, this sport style that's been around about a decade. See the implication you made?

Secondly, China is still barely coming out of extreme repression. Millions died from starvation. Martial arts were outlawed and only practiced secretly. They haven't fully recovered and no one puts his family at risk by raising their head too high. This idea I often hear that "well all I've seen is bogus white guys doing kungfu and they don't win at MMA" is a little absurd. It will take time for them to see much value in a fight with some sort of arbitrary rules. Instead of dissing "internal guys" and things like that, maybe it's better to sit back and wait. Things will happen.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-08-2007, 08:37 PM   #92
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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I tend to avoid these types of conversations....
LOL, yeah, I can see that...
 
Old 03-08-2007, 09:10 PM   #93
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
I believe you are misreading Kevin, and hence, misjudging him.
No, I read him correctly, but I don't think he meant what he wrote. It's not a big deal... cross communications. I generally avoid the style wars, but the "internal guys" versus MMA stuff was a little silly. What happens is that some guy claims he's "internal", mixes it with somebody, loses, and next thing you know it's the same old situation of people talking about things they don't know about.

There was a guy who talked his way into doing some Summer training for some of the Broncos players. Claimed he taught "Tai Chi". It was crap. Later you had Broncos players talking about what crap Taiji was. Happens in all the arts, though, I suppose, where guys claim expertise in something. Certainly happened in some of the earlier UFC fights and got some heated discussions going about who was really qualified for what.

Regards,

Mike
 
Old 03-09-2007, 05:33 AM   #94
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

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Robert John wrote: View Post
...I thought the fact that it being Miyagawa's first time ever going to the ground, would illustrate my point just a bit. Generally people with no grappling experience ...
Hey Rob, is this a distraction for you... conning standup people onto the ground? ...wish I hadn't caught that cold when visiting you guys. Next time I guess.

(Rob suggested I mess around with one or two of the MMA guys from a guard posn. Pretty much all new to me, and I don't think they were necessaily stellar at groundwork, but still good fun.)

Currently visiting the local judo club to remind myself of tatami close up again.

Best,
Dave.

Dave Findlay
 
Old 03-09-2007, 06:24 AM   #95
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Dave Findlay wrote: View Post
(Rob suggested I mess around with one or two of the MMA guys from a guard posn. Pretty much all new to me, and I don't think they were necessaily stellar at groundwork, but still good fun.)
Ooooh... the honest truth hurts
Yeah they were kind of like "wtf, why does he feel so heavy and why can't I break his guard???!! muhahaha"
Dave, even though they weren't stellar at ground work one of them has been in the game for at least 6 years or so

I agree with Kit that the skills need to be polished to be used within the given situation. If you ask me it is still a major leg up though
 
Old 03-09-2007, 07:15 AM   #96
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
... the skills need to be polished to be used within the given situation. If you ask me it is still a major leg up though
Totally; otherwise it can easily become a bit of a self-congratulating distraction (like push hands for push hands sake), and then be quite uncomfortable in an unfamiliar situation.

One of the challenges when stepping into the technique oriented enviroment is trying to maintain a handle on "the way I want to do it" when all the other people are out there just trying to rip your arm off. Not taking "short cuts" forces you get happy with getting chucked around real quick, but I think its going to be better in the long run. Touch wood.

Dave Findlay
 
Old 03-09-2007, 07:52 AM   #97
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I've been grappling in one form or another longer then some folks here have been alive. I was a strong advocate for it at the dawning of the first list servers. I just wish these world class guys were out and about then!! Oh to be 30 again!
I don't like seeing the new form of ignorance being spouted by folks just "discovering grappling" now who are mixing in a little BJJ or Judo ne-waza with their aikido.
Grappling is a specialty game with its own weaknesses and strengths-just like any-other- traditional art. And guess what? They- just like everyone else- had to learn. Even BJJ has had to evolve and learn the truths of MMA.
As much as the traditional arts-of all kinds- were shocked to see how easily they could be taken apart by a good grappler and taken to the ground and then tuned to a fair-thee-well by those intimately aware of that venue gapplers had to learn too. Grapplers (more particularly wrestlers) were equally shocked to see themselves screwed up, stymied, knock out by good strickers, or unable to "postion- for-a-submission"
Funnier still was watching wrestlers trying in vain to get locks or chokes and all while they were in a superior ground and pound postion!! They simply didn't know what the hell to do with it didn't strike once. I've seen and also experienced a wrestler giving me thier back and being unconcerned with a rear choke. Or they hit with amazingly weak power from the ground.
I've lost track of the wrestllers and Judoka I've played with who were euqually unprepaired for folks trained in resisting and reversing takedowns and kicking and punching the shit out of them for their efforts.
For the newly minted "true believers of grappling" I'd suggest you review the progress of the UFC from submissions to more and more TKO and KO's.You need to spend just as much, if not more, in your stand up as rolling and takedowns. I'd tell any BJJ'er to go ask Lidell, or Crokop what they think.
MMA is superior to just mat work, and will always be.
But mat work rocks!!
There is a reason I argue on two fronts here. The first proirity, and the most superior game, is stand up. In Japanese bujutsu as well as modern warfare or LEO, you don't, by choice; roll around on the ground in web gear, or close quarter grapple wth a weapon belt. You learn and truly undestand the ground game and concentrate on being better able to avoid it. You don't go there as a first choice.
In Bujutsu and JMA you focus on standing up thoughout an encounter and to stay mobile. Most tradional martial artists I have met simply can't cope with that envronment with grapplers fighting back. Grappling and MMA win as they are single greatest equalizer. Period. But the goal was and is to remain standing and move
As for internal skills they make any single person stronger, more sensitive and responsive and in any equal setting pound-for-pound- a better striker and grappler -for their current level.
But they don't teach you how to fight.
Combine the two? Very potent stuff.

Internal skills in Aiki-do. They are the source of aiki. The moving for "blending" and moving from bigger to smaller circles and all the shapes and timing like Erice mentioned in the basline skills thread....isn't. THats just more waza stuff. The internal skills are the single thing needed to give Aikido back what it needs- both in power and sensitvity to create Aiki- for it to be anything more than just another weak and palid jujutsu.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-09-2007 at 08:05 AM.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 08:17 AM   #98
DH
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Rob
I'm glad you finally got your wish to play with both bigger and more experienced players. You picked a good group with the Seattle crowd. I'll bet you also learned first hand that grappling isn't a bunch of meat head muscle boys.

For those still suffering under that dellussion, many-not all- but many are intimately aware of weight, postioning, relaxation and sensitivity. For allot of TMA'ers it comes as quite surprise to both feel and see us relaxed and thinking while your sweating your ass off trying to figure out what to do next, and frequently opt go for an opening we provided for your viewing pleasure....bang!
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 03-09-2007, 09:06 AM   #99
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

I feel like many of the skills I learned in wrestling are applicable to my aikido. Nevertheless, aikido is what I am passionate about.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 10:17 AM   #100
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Re: Meeting with Mike Sigman and Rob John

Mike, I am not dissing internal guys and what they do. Only asking for a clarification concerning your hypothesis concerning the evolution of external, to BJJ as seen in the UFC, to MMA, to internal arts of CMA.

That is all.

I have never said there was no value in the skills.

I don't agree witht the delineations that you place on the skills as being separate from things. Nor do I see how the hypothesis that this delineation of internal CMA applies. If it did, we'd be seeing it in some distnct way that would cross the boundaries of age, size, and so-called style/methodology of engagement.

We do see MMA guys getting better in their skills over all from striking, kicking, closing distance (maŠi), timing, grappling, use of body, center...all that good stuff.

So, do the exercises you teach and have obvisouly done quite successful apply. I absolutely think they do.

I just don't understand why you have to go so far as to lay claim that they are so materially important that they will transcend and greatly change what is already being done in MMA.

I don't think we will ever see such a distinction as you state, only MMA guys evolving to be more efficient. However, because we have to have rules in training and in competition, that evolvement will always be somewhat stunted, as it will gravitate to not the BEST way to fight, but one that is simply good enough to win.

Actually Patton said it best. We don't need the best plan, only one that works.

 

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