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Old 03-16-2007, 02:13 PM   #76
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

As I think I've pointed out before, Carlson Gracie Jr. did a seminar at my club a few months back. He did half the seminar on stand up locks and throws. Including nikkyo and ikkyo.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:29 PM   #77
KIT
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Oh yeah?

But could he make that stuff work in the UFC?? Huh?

Sorry, couldn't resist...
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:02 PM   #78
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

If a seminar is held and there is no video evidence . . . does it actually happen?

A couple things that I've been thinking about regarding bjj/aiki/internal training . . .

1) The way a bjj player can 'float' someone while they are on their back is definitely something worth feeling and to me . . . very 'aiki', in that the goal is to fix your position, while in their guard, etc., with their structure and then using their contact points with the ground, get under your balance while letting gravity do the work.

2) Submission setups work best the same way, I use my structure/posture with the energy you're giving me to fix your position, then moving along my contact/base points derived from you AND the ground gets me in the position to apply a lock or choke. Do the same thing from the knees (something I need to practice more) and it's suwari-waza. Do the same thing while standing at arms length and it looks like aikido (except maybe not as pretty as someone that's leaping into the air for you).

I think the way this ties in with some of the things others have been talking about in the 'Internal' specific threads that have to do with training/wiring your body to maintain and move with its own alignment/structure and follow certain rules for receiving/generating power from the other guy and themselves. Though I admit up front I know "nothing" for sure and am speculating based on what others have said.

I've definitely appreciated those chiming in that have felt this stuff from some of the more vocal exponents (as well as those I've talked to personally). I'm much more likely to give them my attention than the person that trains in semi-isolation, yet insists "We do that too and always have done", but when pressed, can't contribute anything more substantial than, "It's sorta kinda this way but not really".

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on with some of the folks doing this stuff, but in the meantime, will continue training in accordance with trying to exceed my own teacher's expectations.
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:19 PM   #79
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I agree Budd. Posture, head, and spine alignment are so, so important in BJJ, as in aikido.

Yes, I love the floating feeling in the open guard that you are talking about. In fact I love the guard because of the contact and feedback you get in training it. It took me a while to understand why in BJJ you work the guard so much, I think it is because it allows you to work with all your tools and everything must be aligned so well in order to get things right.

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Old 03-17-2007, 01:58 PM   #80
KIT
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Interesting comments from Budd and Kevin.

Along the same lines is the harmonizing with the opponent when you are being "floated," in the top position.

Sometimes your contact with the ground is through HIS contact with the ground, and your contact with him. You start to move around to pass the guard, he floats you and the sweep begins, but you float your own hips around your contact point with him (shin, arm, elbow, what have you) bringing them around and basing (i.e. re-establishing contact with the ground ) so that his sweep actually floats you into a superior position as you take advantage of the points of contact.

From the bottom, its that feeling you get when every sweep you do puts him in a better position or opens another sub for him. Yikes!

I love it when that happens for me. Hate it when others do it to me!!
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:22 PM   #81
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Agreed, Kevin. I think one reason it (the guard) is so good for isolating the ground connection with your points of contact is that it gives you another context for weighting yourself to the ground and creating/releasing tension within yourself that it effects the other person.

Nice description, Kit, and I think this goes along with what you're saying, in that if you can do the above things AND harmonize (in the trained intercept/sensitivity to the other person, rather than the philosophical context), then that creates the "inevitability" factor that the really good practitioners (standing, clinch or ground) display regardless of the position they start from. I know I'm not there myself, but I love/hate that feeling when I get it from someone else (also known as the "Oh, S41t, not again!" montage)!
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Old 04-17-2007, 05:26 PM   #82
mikebalko
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

[quote=Chris Birke;172062]You don't sound like you misread Don, or do not understand what guard and mount are.

Guard: One person is in a defensive position on their back or side with their legs between them and their opponent.

The person on their guard can submit or deploy limited striking from the bottom.

The person IN the guard of their opponent can strike fairly well, or go for leg submissions. (GSP was talking about striking from within the opponents guard...)

Don was referring to mount, however.

Mount: Having passed the guard (legs) so that you now control your opponents hips by sitting, or kneeling on them. A person who's hips are controlled cannot marshal the power or reach to strike someone above them effectively. In a one on one situation, a sitting mount provides optimal control - you see this in MMA. In a scenario where multiple attackers are possible a knee across the belly mount is employed (you see this a lot on "Cops") - it provides greater mobility and visibility. You do not see it in mma because control is proffered in 1 on 1.

It is also, however, heavily used as a transition move in bjj, or simply because it's fun to squish white belts with...

GSP does not advocate striking from underneath the mount. He advocates squirming.["/QUOTE]

Fun to squish white belts eh, I could stop right there, that tells me everything I need to know about you. GSP was on the bottom, on his back, with Dave between his legs on top of him. I guess I just hallucinated what I heard him say from that position in that documentary if I have an expert such as yourself contradicting it

"Reductio ad absurdum:
Your self defense system is laughable. I have discovered that having an armed posse trumps any sort of personal self defense technique. It has been demonstrated countless times in history. At my school we train how to be nice to others, win friends, and influence people such that you might muster a posse at all times. We also study the market, such that one might afford arms for their posse. It's the only best way you can really be safe.

The US army has taken this to heart, forming massive possies(sp?) for war making purposes.

To not train in the methods of posse forming simply because you don't care/think it's impossible/unimportant to make friends who will stand around you all the time is really foolish and short sighted. You're probably already dead!"

If you can't defend yourself against more than one person you just plain suck. I was able to do that before having trained in any martial art. LOL, you learn how to make friends and play the stock market! Better places than a dojo to learn that! A posse? So you either think you are a cowboy from the 1800's or you are really into "urban culture", either way something is not right with you.
Oh yes the U.S. army were so effective in the middle east after freedom fighters did not put up any resistance due to a technological disadvantage, but yet young american soldiers are getting sent home in bags every day of the week, just like in nam. What a victory! That is why they are about to pull out without having stabilized the area.
If you are depending on others risking their lives for you, you don't know human nature. If you are lucky you can count those willing to do this for you on one hand. Why bother learning how to defend yourself unless at all? That is what the cops are for. Oh right, they always show up once it is too late or they are the ones you have to defend yourself against, even though you have done nothing illegal, due to their widespread incompetence and unwarranted aggressiveness. As far as being impresssed by police and soldier's martial skills, it is good thing for them that they usually outnumber their enemies who are usually weaker from malnourishment, drugs, pshychiatric disorder, unarmed or more poorly armed, offensively unskilled, untrained and ignorant of how to defend themselves.

Where was this boy's posse?

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/nation...13_174902_3332

Ahhh, the problem with internet forums v.s. real life is you have to point out how absurd someone is in writing as opposed to the quicker and more efficient manner of physically demonstrating it.

Last edited by mikebalko : 04-17-2007 at 05:41 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 04-18-2007, 08:35 AM   #83
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

If you honestly don't care whether or not you can effectively deal with a skilled clinch/ground grappler, then no worries, how tough do you want to be when you grow up? You'll get out of your aikido what you put into it (whether it's meditation, moving Zen, hard training, lots of solo work, intelligent randori, hard sparring, some combination), assuming that you're honest about the results of your training and reasons for training (which can be a hard thing).

If you honestly care how your aikido fares in a sport grappling context, go visit a wrestling/judo/sambo/bjj club and find out (it's fun - I've personally found the bjj guys here to be the most laid back about such things). If you don't care, then don't bother, but if you've got no experience with such things, you might come across as being less than credible if you talk about what "grapplers do" or how "grappling works" (which sort of also can be applied to folks pointing out why body skills in the ki/jin context aren't of value -- not pointing out anyone in particular in any case OR implying any abilities in this, though I do want to experience/learn more).

Either way, my experience has been that, when appropriate, it's good to get out and meet people and have informed opinions based on person-to-person interactions, which can then be shared (appropriately) rather than theoretical discussions based on what you think or suppose. I again thank folks that participate who have experienced differrent stuff (and share their experiences), gone out of their way to meet/train with people that have posted strong views (and again, then share their experiences -- I'm sorry to have missed at least one opportunity that was semi-locally available, unfortunately, one can only be in so many places at one time).

It's just a lot more credible than folks that write (sometimes needing a lot of words to basically say) "Yeah, we do that, too" or "I don't need to do that" when most people aren't really asking them or telling them otherwise (even if that's how it comes across according to the "protest too much" rule-of-thumb).

Personally, I've had nothing but good experiences with the people I've met that also post here.

Last edited by Budd : 04-18-2007 at 08:44 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:00 PM   #84
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

I was interested in reading the article by Bruce Bookman but there doesn't seem to be anyway to read without buying the issue despite the fact that the website claims the first issue can be downloaded for free. I keep ending up being sent to PayPal.

What have I missed or was that post just a spam advertising the magazine ?

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Old 04-25-2007, 10:59 AM   #85
mike.quinn@fsmail.net
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

OK, it's done to death, but if anything, then BJJ in the UFC made us all sit up and take notice- or ignore in the fantasy world if your protecting your ego or your income if you're teaching. kung fu had this in the 70s, now it's BJJ or M.T. . What's next?. The problem with aikido is the way it is taught is not real for the street, but the art in it's original form would. Many techniques have been removed, complience is order of the day, which does not make for testing your technique easy. The atemi , P/Ps, ground work etc were removed. I switched to Karate and found the outright face to face stuff difficult. in Aikido we react, which is dangerous in a self defence scenario. For you!. However, once you become aware of your limitations, then that is the first step, and believe it or not you are then on the road to being a proper martial artist. Aikido is a lovely art , and to be honest I wouldn,t want to change it. I don't practice very often, but I know it'ts there, and as I get older/slower etc, maybe Aikido would deliver what other arts could not. I am a martial artist for life, and see aikido as the long term option.
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Old 04-25-2007, 07:37 PM   #86
DaveS
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Re: Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu

Quote:
Michael Quinn wrote: View Post
The problem with aikido is the way it is taught is not real for the street,
This is only a problem if your goal is to defend yourself on the street with what you learn. The way I learn aikido (shodokan) is not, as I understand it, directly preparing me for a fight - either in the MMA ring or in the street - and that's not a problem for me as the likelihood of me being in either of those situations is honestly quite low. In particular, it's not preparing me for a fight with a trained groundfighter, as the chances of that happening are pretty much negligible.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?
Can we write this above the door, or translate it into Japanese and hang it on the wall or something?
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