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Old 02-12-2007, 11:17 AM   #26
mriehle
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
15-20 minutes, man I don't think I'd be down for that. 5 minutes is enough, then lets start actually working for underhooks for another 5 minutes. It is an important skill, and very good to practice. But my classes are an hour and a half long. I wouldn't want to waste 20 minutes of my time doing an exercise I can do at home. I'd rather have my technique critiqued, or spar.
You know, sometimes I do 30 minutes just on step turns (tenkan). These exercises are so fundamental that I'll spend this time having students do step turns and then ciritiquing the step turns. Then we'll spend the rest of the class working on techniques where step turns are a fundamental part of them.

You can do the exercise at home, but are you doing it right? Is it helping you to build the foundations to do technique correctly? This, IMO, can be as important as working on technique directly.

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Old 02-12-2007, 11:29 AM   #27
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Re: rowing exersize

Different learning methods I guess. I personally won't do any drill for 30 minutes straight. I find 3-5 minutes, then adding resistance is enough, and like it was said previously, sometimes after you add that resistance, you have to take it away and go back to step one to correct something. But for me 30 minutes of the same thing over and over will make me become less mindful and more sloppy. I'd rather be sparing.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:40 AM   #28
sbrocklebank
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Re: rowing exersize

my sensei was relating his training back in the late 60s early 70s and encouraging me to try some of the things that he did back then...eg; sitting in seiza for 40 mins with hands in prayer posture, rowing exersize for 40 mins and standing in horse stance for 40 mins, 1000 cuts with bokken.
we were talking about activities i could do at home to develop the power of my techniques...
as i said, when i asked why, he replied that i would only know when i have done it! at the moment the mental battle to keep going when it gets boring or painful is the big issue, how this will help me develop powerful technique who knows!?

sim

sim
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:56 AM   #29
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
...You can do the exercise at home, but are you doing it right? Is it helping you to build the foundations to do technique correctly? This, IMO, can be as important as working on technique directly....
Absolutely....students should be working on these drills/basic movements at home. You usually can spot the student that performs them ONLY at the dojo a mile away. Work on them at home and then be prepared for critique at the dojo.

To work on the basics ONLY at the dojo is a waste of everyone's time.

Regards,

Charlie B.

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:03 PM   #30
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Re: rowing exersize

One of my aikido instructors used to sometime spend all class walking and turning, very slowly, transistioning weight carefully and intentionally while breathing correctly. I hated it, but now see the value in what he taught us.

He usually did it because he would get pissed at us for not doing it in our pracitce on things like irimi nage.
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:13 PM   #31
mriehle
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
But for me 30 minutes of the same thing over and over will make me become less mindful and more sloppy. I'd rather be sparing.
Well, therein lies the problem. If you're doing the same thing over and over again, you're not doing the drill. If it isn't significantly better at the end of those 30 minutes, you were just going through the motions.

Part of what I'm doing when I do long drills like this is stopping people and making them aware that they are just going through the motions. Or testing them as they do the movement. For rowing exercise I'll wander around and randomly grab arms. If they're doing it right, their arm keeps moving. If they are just going through the motions, their arm stops. Although, that might qualify as "adding resistance" in your view.

Still, the point is to perfect the small motions. You can't do this in every class. It would be a waste of time to try. But I'll have a class every couple of months where I will nitpick mercilessly.

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:17 PM   #32
mriehle
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
Absolutely....students should be working on these drills/basic movements at home. You usually can spot the student that performs them ONLY at the dojo a mile away.
Well, there is no doubt that it's better if students do practice at home. Still, it's good to go over this stuff in class and be sure they're getting it right.

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
Work on them at home and then be prepared for critique at the dojo.
Presumably during the drill in class?

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
To work on the basics ONLY at the dojo is a waste of everyone's time.
But to not work on them at the dojo is also a waste of time. Such basics lay the foundation for everything else we do.

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:22 PM   #33
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Re: rowing exersize

I guess I just prefer to work on things a little bit at a time, everyday, then a lot at a time, but with breaks.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:28 PM   #34
mriehle
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I hated it, but now see the value in what he taught us.
So many of the exercises I have done in Aikido I could say this same thing about.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
He usually did it because he would get pissed at us for not doing it in our pracitce on things like irimi nage.
Okay, I'll admit it, at least some of the time when I do these long drills it's because I'm annoyed with a consistent mistake that everyone in class is making.

I always wonder who I'm annoyed with, though. If all the students in the class are making the same mistake, it probably means I've made a mistake in my teaching...

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:31 PM   #35
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Re: rowing exersize

I agree Don, there are alot of things that I don't do in our advance classes, because we only have so much time. Alot of people will do conditioning drills, I don't do them, as students can do them on there own and you only have so much time when you have people together to train. why waste your time on simple things that can be done alone.
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:33 PM   #36
mriehle
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I guess I just prefer to work on things a little bit at a time, everyday, then a lot at a time, but with breaks.
I have to say that most of the time this is exactly correct.

I do think, though, that once in a while it's good to focus on a detail and nail it down. Generally I pick on things that people are having a hard time with or things that in my experience people tend to try to short cut their practice on.

The former come as they will, the latter are often amazingly predictable.

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Old 02-12-2007, 12:46 PM   #37
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Re: rowing exercise

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
...But to not work on them at the dojo is also a waste of time. Such basics lay the foundation for everything else we do...
Precisely....I don't believe that anywhere in my response did I advocate not teaching the basics in the dojo. Of course it has to be digested in the dojo otherwise there is no transmission.

However, with most schools typically only offering training 2-3 times a week from anywhere from 1-1 1/2 hours a class, a brunt of the work has to be done by the student in a setting outside of the dojo if there is to be a solid progression.

After all...the greats only became great because they practiced...A LOT!

The trick is to find the balance between teaching the basics AND teaching technique...because in the end they go hand-in-hand.

Either way, it is just a lot easier to practice the basics at home [after having solid instruction at the dojo]...solo...for extended periods of time....uh oh...there is that now so familiar caveat that we seem to keep seeing creep into one thread after another!!!!

FWIW

Charlie B.

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Old 02-12-2007, 02:07 PM   #38
Michael Douglas
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Simon Brocklebank wrote:
hi
my senei has encouraged us to do the rowing exersize for 40minutes. which i have tried to do but got board!
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Wooden you just know it!
40 minutes sounds a bit overboard to me!
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Old 02-12-2007, 04:54 PM   #39
crbateman
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Re: rowing exersize

Perhaps break it up into tree smaller pieces...
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Old 02-12-2007, 05:53 PM   #40
Upyu
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
Absolutely....students should be working on these drills/basic movements at home. You usually can spot the student that performs them ONLY at the dojo a mile away. Work on them at home and then be prepared for critique at the dojo.

To work on the basics ONLY at the dojo is a waste of everyone's time.

Regards,

Charlie B.
Personally I don't think it's a waste of time.
Focusing too much on waza is a waste of everyone's time if you ask me (this applies to any MA)
Be interesting to see what would happen if no waza were taught, and only the fundamental exercises to some beginners for a year.
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Old 02-12-2007, 06:19 PM   #41
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Re: rowing exersize

Which ties perfectly into not going to the ground-but this time, not in MMA formats for sprawls but in excellently trained ways to remain standing though structure. If we look at very real confrontations, the last place you want to end up is on the ground. Being connected and being able to both use and generate power doesn't look like normal fighting because it -isn't- normal fighting.
Its a different way tor emain on your feet that has nothing to do with Waza.
I know its hard to understand for folks, hell its hard to explain.
But in a word it is the very heart of Bujutsu. ONe could say that if you cannot feel your body changing, the way to carry your weight changing, your instant non-response response changing-you aren't doing something right.
And heres another thought. If good structure can stop most "waza?" Then why learn more waza?
Learn to have better structure and the ways to use it.
Theres nothing sadder then standing there with exterenally trained twenty-year men who can't make a damn thing they know work on you. Technique junkies are everywhere, be the few who "get it."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-12-2007 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 02-12-2007, 07:44 PM   #42
Charlie
 
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Personally I don't think it's a waste of time.
Focusing too much on waza is a waste of everyone's time if you ask me (this applies to any MA)
Be interesting to see what would happen if no waza were taught, and only the fundamental exercises to some beginners for a year.

Well Rob…you only quoted half of what I said. In doing so changes the message that I was trying to get across.

To know me is to know how I was raised up in Aikido and that is by constantly being drilled on the basics. My teacher is relentless about going back and working on the basics.

I find that having that experience has done wonders to help me understand comments that you and people like Dan have made concerning the advent of technique driven dojos that are found in abundance these days. It's nothing I haven't heard before from my teacher.

I was not advocating more technique but instead pushing for the point that the student has to do a lot of work that will most likely be done outside the dojo.

It is a waste of time if a student doesn't have the gumption to do the work that they need to do on their own IF they keep coming once and/or twice a week and only do the basics in the short time they are actually in a class. If those 2 classes a week were only focused on the basics and not technique...who knows. But most classes are not set up that way.

Now if they want to just sign up for some type of martial social club then more power to them.

It is pretty much a given that if the average 2-3 day a week dojo concentrated most of their training time dedicated just to the basics they would most likely end up closing shop quickly. They would have very few students that would stick it out. Most schools have to find a balance between good and bad in order to keep the doors open.

That being said, I am in the process of organizing to open my own school. I already have a basic curriculum set up that will provide for 3-4 classes a week that deal solely with basics. In doing so I already expect dojo growth to be slow…fine by me! I know what kind of atmosphere I want to have in my school.

FWIW

Charlie B.

Last edited by Charlie : 02-12-2007 at 07:47 PM.

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Old 02-12-2007, 07:45 PM   #43
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: rowing exersize

Commenting on Dan's post: Since techniques are mechanical work using the body structure's strength, it's always possible to devise more complex exercises to strengthen certain parts of the structure more and more, always keeping the same principles and working those. Just being able to do such complex movements would give evidence of unusual strength, without needing a partner to demonstrate that strength on. Oh, but isn't that to a large degree what kata are for?
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:00 PM   #44
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Re: rowing exersize

This reminds me of a little game I played last week.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30749731121005

The first match was against a kid who was all power, no structure. I have good balance and structure and he beat himself. The second was against a former army ranger who had good technique and physique. My good structure was unable to compensate and I was beaten.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:09 PM   #45
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This reminds me of a little game I played last week.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30749731121005

The first match was against a kid who was all power, no structure. I have good balance and structure and he beat himself. The second was against a former army ranger who had good technique and physique. My good structure was unable to compensate and I was beaten.
Well, I see what you're saying, but essentially the strongest power using that kind of "weapon" is in the straight push that he relied on. If you had the kind of "structure" that Dan *may* be talking about (in this type of instance), then you could have still beat him. I.e., it's possible that you're thinking one type of 'structure' and we're looking at something else and also calling it "structure".

That being said, I have to agree with you and say that while these skills of ki/kokyu give you and advantage, they don't make you bulletproof, by any means. Take a worst-case comparison, for instance: put Tito Ortiz against a 105-pound person "with good ki/kokyu skills". Bet on Tito. There's a sliding-scale of reality that has to be applied to all of this.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:13 PM   #46
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Re: rowing exersize

The first kid said he felt like he was hitting an unmovable brick wall. That's the kind of structure I'm talking about. Of course I only had a platform hardly big enough for my feet to fit on. I tried to stay fully relaxed and used a lot of one point focus and attention to directing the energy given to me straight down into my feet. That was fine and dandy till the second guy parried my strike, this circular motion lifted me, and that was my downfall.

Next semester I get a rematch. The guy who beat me was the president of the college. (Everyone is trying to get me to admit I let him win. They really thought after watching my first two matches I was unbeatable.)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:34 AM   #47
Upyu
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
Well Rob…you only quoted half of what I said. In doing so changes the message that I was trying to get across.


I was not advocating more technique but instead pushing for the point that the student has to do a lot of work that will most likely be done outside the dojo.
Sorry about that, didn't mean to make it seem like I was coming down on you, I'm not.

I also agree that unless students are willing to do the bulk of the work out of class, it wastes everyone's time. Class should be a review session to go deeper into the subject. (Like every class should be... *thinks back to college when no one studies ahead of time, lol, myself included*)

A large part of how a student practices is mirrored in how he's taught though, so if say, the bulk of the class is spent on basic technique, such as ikkyo, irimi movements etc, I think a large portion of them are going to end up not focusing on the solo exercises that need to be done at home.
Or, it at least needs to be explicitly told to them that xxx exercises need to be done. Everyday. No exceptions.
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:42 AM   #48
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Re: rowing exersize

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote:
40 minutes of funakogi undo??? That's nuts!!! But hey, "practice makes perfect"
Not if you are doing it wrong.

And for 40 minutes ... why is it I think I know who the teacher is ... been there ... done that ...

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 02-13-2007 at 03:44 AM.

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Old 02-13-2007, 09:59 AM   #49
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Re: rowing exersize

was he on about just technique or something internal as well?

-------------------------------------------------

sim
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:09 AM   #50
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Re: rowing exersize

Dan wrote:

Quote:
Theres nothing sadder then standing there with exterenally trained twenty-year men who can't make a damn thing they know work on you. Technique junkies are everywhere, be the few who "get it."
Cheers
Dan
AND THIS....this is what I really, really want to see, or try in person. For someone to demonstrate with a decent so-called or labeled, "externalist" with a so-called internalist...you for instance...go toe to toe in a completely, or as complete as reasonably possible...NHB situation...AND to have you demonstrate the martial superiority and the dominance that you can establish.

When I get back to the states, If you agree to the time and place, I would get together with you and work through this, as I seek a deeper understanding of the mysteries that I apparently "don't get".

Not being sarcastic, but geninuely honest and sincere desire to be shown how this works.
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