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Old 02-08-2007, 12:40 PM   #51
senshincenter
 
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Re: Called out.

Hi All,

My point of view is wondering why things have to be considered "jabs" at all. For me they are not. They are not because they do not have to be. If we keep seeing and feeling jabs all the time, in this forum (for example), my opinion is that such a person should start asking "why?," no longer feeling that it's just self-evident that someone is jabbing at them.

If I am pushing this point here, it is because, yes, all the times we are feeling attacked, all the times we are feeling insulted, all the put-downs we feel, all the challenges we make or sense, all the accusations of ignorance and/or lack of experience we snap out only to silence another, etc., make this site much less than it can be. Yes, I wish that were not so here. It makes the site suck - for me. Personally, I feel this is being disrespectful to Jun - because everything he has shown me of his person is that he is not of this kind. And if I would not try or support this stuff in Jun's home, I wouldn't think it's appropriate here. This is how I feel.

For me, from my own perspective, being a martial artist is not about stepping up at every challenge against our "honor" or our "skill", etc. For me, true honor and true skill are best demonstrated when they are shared, not when they out to compete in order to exist. And they can only be shared when they are not so press-able into a challenge. For me, a huge part of martial arts training is about discovering why we feel so thusly challenged and how we can stop that. Thus, I do not think we have to stop being a martial artist and/or stop seeking to be martially effective before we seek or if we seek to cultivate an ego that is not so easily threatened. A person can defend himself, defend another, make an arrest against an aggressive or resistant criminal, etc., without possessing the kind of ego that is getting "challenged" left and right. In my experience, this is the kind of martial artist I have looked up to - and am aiming toward.

I agree, what is said on this or any site does not jive with many folks that do not post or even visit. Yet, since I am of the opinion, for better or for worse, that Aikido is many things to many people, I am not surprised at that, nor does it say much to me personally. I try to have my Aikido. I don't try to have everyone else's Aikido or to have everyone else have my Aikido. This does not mean I do not have strong opinions, directions, leanings, etc. I do, but I do not seek to enforce them - that would be silly to me, counter-productive, etc. Any pressure I have accompanying these things I save for myself and for those that have sought to train under me. I assume, always, everyone here is doing the same - even when they openly say otherwise (this is because there is no real capacity to affect anyone in such manner here).

Additionally, I can see that this site has a plethora of opinions - so it's a bit of a stretch then for me to see anything in the fact that a lot of different folks - old timers or otherwise - don't agree with a lot of the different opinions readable on this site. I see only variation - and I'm fine with that though I try to be as distinct as I can with my own stuff for my own self. Sure, I enter into debates and disagreements, but if I able to remember that variation is here to stay, that that is all there is, that I have no reason nor power to change anyone's Aikido into mine, that my Aikido is not threatened by anyone's point of view, that I am not vulnerable to thoughts and words, etc., I tend to have a better chance of not taking such debates into areas away from what I consider a very integral part of martial arts training - the reconciliation of ego.

I do not see some folks as having an upper hand in posting. Aikiweb.com is not an area to be conquered for me. I assume everyone's mouse button has the same level of resistance to it. I have developed some friendships through this site and I continue to try and do that with everyone I meet up with here. Toward that end, I look to appreciate all opinions. That is possible, I feel, because I do not degrade some under others. With no one being under anyone else, for me, no one is on top either.

Some folks might find this point of view relevant to this thread. Some folks might find this point of view irrelevant. Some might say its truthful, some might say it's full of crap. In the end, it's only my opinion - a very small thing that should remain small for others here.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:41 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Called out.

Mike,

aikido is essentially martially ineffective the way it is trained. so is tai chi. It is practiced for other reasons than martial arts. Budo is an element of martial training, but it is not complete or really concerned with martial effectiveness.


It has become something else, and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:01 PM   #53
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Called out.

I really liked David V.'s post, and it is consistent with other things I've seen him write, so I'm not really surprised.

I think there are many valid points here, but I wish there was a bottom line.

For me, I think the bottom line is...treat people with respect. There was a time when if you didn't, you got beat, or else you were tough enough to stop the beating.

Ok, fine...but that time is (hopefully) passing. Are we children that we need the threat of a beating to enforce politeness?? We can't just be polite without any threat to ourselves?

I think as good as this board is (and it's one of the best out there in many ways), we all still have some growing up to do. Or humanizing. Or something.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:02 PM   #54
Neil Mick
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Mike,

aikido is essentially martially ineffective the way it is trained.
Well, I wouldn't go that far...that's too blanket a statement.

Not far from where I live, there's a dojo that has a Thai kickboxing Sensei come in every week and give some MA pointers to the aikido dojo.

Quote:
so is tai chi. It is practiced for other reasons than martial arts. Budo is an element of martial training, but it is not complete or really concerned with martial effectiveness.


It has become something else, and there is nothing wrong with that.
But yeah, a lot of aikido dojo's aren't practicing MA as a fighting art, and you're right...that's perfectly OK.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:04 PM   #55
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
aikido is essentially martially ineffective the way it is trained. so is tai chi.
Well, I dunno. Think of it like this. Ueshiba was not martially ineffective. A lot of his top students were not martially ineffective. Their efforts and skills made "Aikido" a famous name. Someone using the name "Aikido" for something entirely different (despite the hakam and other trappings) is in a sense stealing from the works of others in order to glorify the different thing that they do. See the point?

Same with Taiji. Go to Chen Village (Chenjiagou) and see what happens when you state that Taiji is "martially ineffective". Some of those guys are so good you can't believe it.

What you're justifying from appears to be the idea that real Aikido is no longer around now that Ueshiba is dead and a lot of people have been allowed to dilute the art.... and those people are martially ineffective. Based on that second-generation of people, you now feel free to assert (debate-wise) that Aikido is martially ineffective so it is not open-season and anyone should be able to call anything they want as "Aikido". And a lot of people will agree with you. But not someone who does Aikido aproximating the original Aikido. The people who agree to the dilution don't really love the original Aikido (IMO, debate-wise), even though they claim to do so and probably even have a bobble-head Ueshiba doll on a table at the front of their dojo.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:05 PM   #56
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Called out.

/ignore
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:07 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Are we children that we need the threat of a beating to enforce politeness?? We can't just be polite without any threat to ourselves?
Ron, even though they teach sex education, gender sensitivity, and have sexual harrassment laws all over the books..... you better believe that 16 year-old date out with your daughter is going to try and get into her pants. It's part of human nature and it can't be legislated or polite-ed away.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:29 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Called out.

Hmmm...that is possibly a valid point, and I don't even have a daughter. But I still dread the thought of my young great niece reaching dating age. yuck.

I know on some level you are right...but I also know that I don't have to live that way myself. If someone want's to be rude, I should learn to let them. Some OTHER bully will bring them back into line...but it doesn't have to be me.

Best,
Ron (trying so hard to live up to these words...still failing...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:44 PM   #59
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Re: Called out.

I think that O'sensei and many of his senior students were well rounded and effective martial artist, because they had quite a bit of depth in their training. Aikido was essentially an art that rounded them out and helped them see new things and reach a higher understanding of martial arts, budo, and things such as kokyu.

I guess all I am saying is that it is possible to understand kokyu, be able to demonstrate it quite well, and yet, still be a freshman when it comes to true martial effectiveness.

If aikido were concerned with martial effectiveness, it would be practiced much, much more different as a system than the way it is commonly practiced.

It would include much of the full spectrum of all that encompasses jiujitsu, and not simply the DO that Ueshiba distilled out of the art to concentrate and focus on budo. reserving what we commonly practice in aikido for those that have demonstrated the skills necessary to move on to higher levels of training.

I am sure there are many skilled tai chi artist in China. I bet they also do not practice the way I saw the old people in Nanchung, or Guangzhou that I saw in the parks.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 01:49 PM   #60
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Re: Called out.

No, I don't think that people have diluted the art at all Mike.

Ueshiba simply distilled the points out of the SU arts that he felt represented what he felt was necessary to teach his philosophy.

He basically said, I have done the hard work so you don't have to!

Nothing wrong with that at all, heck it must be worth something if we have all these people around the world practicing it.

I think it is not so much about dillution, but about a lack of understanding among people that are essentially novices when it comes to understanding martial arts as a whole.

Most of us today did not grow up in a martial culture so it is hard for us to interpret and understand much of what is beng taught. We tend to over generalize and to mis label what is being taught.

I think this is where we end up with trying to transmit the concept of effectiveness and aliveness onto the art, when it has been intentionally filtered out by Ueshiba to help people improve in the essence of Budo.

It is not so much about dillution, but misunderstanding concerrning budo.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 02:02 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I guess all I am saying is that it is possible to understand kokyu, be able to demonstrate it quite well, and yet, still be a freshman when it comes to true martial effectiveness.
Well that's true, but I was speaking more to the overall art. [/quote] If aikido were concerned with martial effectiveness, it would be practiced much, much more different as a system than the way it is commonly practiced.[/quote] True, but Aikido has been allowed to deteriorate down to some of the abysmal levels you see today. And you can't say "your Aikido sucks" because too many of the Aikidoists that have been allowed to develop and teach have been allowed to say "anything is Aikido" for too long. Stan Pranin has a number of nice interviews of Aikido experts that contradict the idea that anything is acceptable as Aikido..... yet here is a major western forum where the idea "Aikido is what you want it to be" is considered a "valid view". It supports the dilution process.
Quote:
I am sure there are many skilled tai chi artist in China. I bet they also do not practice the way I saw the old people in Nanchung, or Guangzhou that I saw in the parks.
Slightly different case, but it could be argued that the "for health" crowd represents a dilution of the original famous Taiji.... which got its fame from being an extremely powerful martial art.

Actually, it wouldn't be hard to convert some version of Aikido into a "health and strength" version, come to think of it. However, to be honest, it would have to clarify that it was a "health and strength variant" of Aikido... it couldn't claim to really be Aikido without making an oblique insult to O-Sensei and all he worked for, IMO.

Regards,

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 02:21 PM   #62
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Re: Called out.

Maybe I simply haven't been exposed to what I would consider bad aikido. I do belong to a great organization with Shihans like Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei that have oversight.

So, maybe I can't fathom or understand it.

I suppose "sucks" is a realitive term.

I mean when I sparred my first MMA/BJJ guy NHB a couple of years ago with my aikido background..yea, I would say that I sucked and I suppose you could draw a very clear conclusion that aikido sucks from that perspective. Frankly I would agree with you in this case!

I am not sure, however, how you can judge dillution of aikido etc.

I'd probably say from an ASU perspective that KI Aikido sucked because they have filtered out a bunch of things that we would consider to be salient points of tactical timing and effectiveness in order to reach a deeper understanding of KI. They might say ASU sucks because we are too hard in our approach to really understand the essence of KI.

An iaido or kendo expert might say that Aikido sword work sucked from an iaido perspective as it is not tactically effective in training sword work from a iaido/kendo perspective.

again, I think it is all a matter of perspective. I don't train aikido to win in BJJ, nor do I train in BJJ to understand aikido. However there are elements in both systems that help me better understand myself and what I am learning in both arts.

If aikido helps someone understand a concept that they are trying to better understand, then they have accomplished what they came to the art to understand.

If the leaders of aikido feel that they are overall successful in helping people understand peace, harmony, and the nature of conflict through the methods that we employ to do these things, then they are being successful.

I don't think there is anyone person out there that can categorically judge the art or various subsets of the art as lacking or sucking.

From the years I have been reading your post, it seems to me that you have discovered somethings that you feel are very valuable and might be a critical piece to aikido or helping those who study aikido better understand some core concepts. I applaud that and appreciate your eagerness and williness to share that knowledge with the community. I hope someday to catch up with you and train.

To be honest too...I feel I have learned a few things that I think aikidoka could benefit from in my studies of grappling and MMA, and I will share them with anyone that wants to work with me!

I would though not say that because I come at aikido or martial effectiveness from a different perspective and judgement of how to train than many or most in aikido that the art is somehow lacking or been diluted.

Hope this makes sense!

I mean it does suck if you are training in it for the wrong reasons and you are not gettng out of it what you think you should. However, that is a personal judgement based on your own values and judgements that apply to you.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 02:39 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Maybe I simply haven't been exposed to what I would consider bad aikido. I do belong to a great organization with Shihans like Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei that have oversight.

So, maybe I can't fathom or understand it.

I suppose "sucks" is a realitive term.
"Sucks" is indeed a relative term, but I in now way used it, just to clarify. And for god's sake be careful or you'll get the thread diverted to some of the horrible Aikido we've all seen.
Quote:
I'd probably say from an ASU perspective that KI Aikido sucked because they have filtered out a bunch of things that we would consider to be salient points of tactical timing and effectiveness in order to reach a deeper understanding of KI. They might say ASU sucks because we are too hard in our approach to really understand the essence of KI.
See.... a mature observation. You saw it first right here on AikiWeb, Folks. Kevin, you are now banned from list.
Quote:
From the years I have been reading your post, it seems to me that you have discovered somethings that you feel are very valuable and might be a critical piece to aikido or helping those who study aikido better understand some core concepts. I applaud that and appreciate your eagerness and williness to share that knowledge with the community. I hope someday to catch up with you and train.

To be honest too...I feel I have learned a few things that I think aikidoka could benefit from in my studies of grappling and MMA, and I will share them with anyone that wants to work with me!

I would though not say that because I come at aikido or martial effectiveness from a different perspective and judgement of how to train than many or most in aikido that the art is somehow lacking or been diluted.
Well, I don't fully agree. I have not "discovered" anything.... I "learned how to do something" that is in traditional Aikido and all Asian martial arts and which is very hard to get useable information about. That is quite different from skills and techniques which might benefit Aikido by the addition of them. Heck, I know some cute things that probably BJJ, Aikido, Karate, etc., could all benefit from adding to the curricula (don't we all?).... but that's a different topic entirely from a basic concept that has gone missing.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 02:46 PM   #64
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
yet here is a major western forum where the idea "Aikido is what you want it to be" is considered a "valid view". It supports the dilution process
Mike, I think you need to post less and listen more, or alternatively, take the colored glasses off. You mistake the capacity of the individual to derive multiple benefits from a single, albeit complex, activity. I suppose Aikido is what you want it to be (martial training, spiritual development, fitness), but from that standpoint, so is drinking a beer, so what's the point; it's rather silly to go about stamping your feet about it.

The variety of threads represent the differing emphasis individuals have at different points in their training. Over the past 6 years on the forum, I have also seen the same individuals change their emphasis, which is likely to be representative of their development in the art, a much more tenable hypothesis than the dilution of the entire 80-year-old art (give or take a few years) during little more than half a decade.

And you have my permission to quote me in your book. Go ahead, I know you want to...

Avery
 
Old 02-08-2007, 03:06 PM   #65
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Re: Called out.

Thanks for the clarification Mike.

When I said discovery...I really meant self discovery...not to imply that you were implying that you discovered something new!
 
Old 02-08-2007, 03:36 PM   #66
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
Mike, I think you need to post less and listen more, or alternatively, take the colored glasses off.
Just debate the point, Avery; don't make gratuitous comments.
Quote:
You mistake the capacity of the individual to derive multiple benefits from a single, albeit complex, activity.
I see. So if someone uses a piano as a boat, they are "playing the piano". I hope you see the logical futility of your argument. The logical error you're making is based on the argument that goes like "All ways of doing X are valid and there is no such thing as a wrong way". If that is true, then Aikido is also a nuclear explosion, depending on whatever whimsical definition you want to apply.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 03:59 PM   #67
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If that is true, then Aikido is also a nuclear explosion
Only if you grab Arikawa sensei, or so I've heard.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 05:25 PM   #68
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Re: Called out.

It's very telling about the Aikido community that this thread took off the way it did. When I went to work this morning there was only one page. Now ther are 3!

Mike I don't know how you get time to train with all the posting you do.

 
Old 02-08-2007, 05:43 PM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Mike I don't know how you get time to train with all the posting you do.
Don't worry, there's a train that goes right by my house (across the river, actually), so train time is easy.

Actually, I got about 2.5 hours of workout in today, not to mention a fair amount of writing. The little sound goes off telling me when things come in on the computer, I switch screens and knock off a reply if I feel like it, and continue on with my other writing. Not a problem.

I think this is a necessary thread, for a change, BTW. The "role-playing" aspect of any martial art needs to be faced squarely.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 06:42 PM   #70
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Notice that I try to stick to the issues, more or less,
I'll vote for "less".

Quote:
If you have personal remarks (and you've accumulated a few by now) do what most others do and keep them to yourself.
Does anybody else think that it doesn't make much of a point to tell somebody to keep personal insults to themself after one rattles out personal insults at that person for for several paragraphs?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 02-08-2007, 06:50 PM   #71
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
Dear lord. What kind of book are you writing that the random musings of otherwise bored aikidoka could possibly be a stimulant?

My suggestion is: Use lots of color pictures. That can compensate for a lot of shortcomings.

Avery
My suggestions are:

1) make sure well-known expert MAs read and critique your book before you publish

2) try to not self publish

3) try to get it reviewed in leading MA mags

4) actually have references that others can find, not just 'some Chinese guy', 'some book', type of stuff

5) try to not use too many words in quotes like "grounding", etc. and/or use only accepted scientific terms from a physics class, for example.

That's a short list.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 02-08-2007, 06:52 PM   #72
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And you know just as well as I do that there are some bona fide whack-jobs (that's the technical term) on this forum. One of them posted right near this post.
Some are probably wondering if your own post counts as "near this post" ?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 02-08-2007, 06:55 PM   #73
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Well, I wouldn't go that far...that's too blanket a statement.

Not far from where I live, there's a dojo that has a Thai kickboxing Sensei come in every week and give some MA pointers to the aikido dojo.
I agree Neil. There's a place a few miles away from me that I visited where it was clear to any observer that their techniques and mode of practicing were very martial.

Of course, I've seen others that were basically kiddie classes, with no martial anything; more like a day care. :P

I believe the first category to be the norm, however.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
 
Old 02-08-2007, 07:00 PM   #74
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Re: Called out.

Sorry to be off topic, but if an aikido dojo incorporates kickboxing into its practice, doesn't that make it not aikido anymore, but a form of MMA?

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-08-2007 at 07:02 PM.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 08:06 PM   #75
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Sorry to be off topic, but if an aikido dojo incorporates kickboxing into its practice, doesn't that make it not aikido anymore, but a form of MMA?
Nope, it's called "playing the piano." At least in Mikey's world.

Avery
 

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