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Old 02-08-2007, 10:31 AM   #26
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Called out.

Wow, its finally come to this, and on Aiki Web as well!
I am obviously contradicted on this point. I definitely agree with Mike that if you cant or wont put your money where your mouth is, then keep it shut. However I personally try to do that out of respect and not fear of being "called out". I don't like the idea that I can insult people I'm not afraid of and be careful of others who maybe could "swat me down." I grew up in London and when I was a kid there was no such thing as a fair fight, and even if you won you could expect to be ambushed, "mob handed" as we used to say, so it was a last resort.
I also absolutely agree with George when he quotes, "If it is not important enough for you or the other guy to die for you shouldn't be fighting". So for me, when people choose to express their personal opinions too strongly I would rather back off and let life be the teaching instrument not me.

"So how does that work, Chris? This has always been an intriguing question to me when someone says something like, "Oh, if you want to get trashed, go to the next seminar with Ohuku Sensei and watch what he does to you." So I have this picture where I do a nice Tsuki or Yokomenuchi and he breaks my arm. Or I give him katatetori and he nikkyo's me into agony. Is that how you "prove" something on the mat, Chris?"
Again I agree with you Mike, I think your point is correct, the misuse of the way aikido is trained can lead to some funny ideas but it sounds to me like you are bashing aikido in general, when I know you are not. You state that you are fed up with people role playing. Well if that's what us poor aikido fools are doing stop wasting so much energy trying to save us. If you feel there are a few of us out here who are serious then ignore the comments of the rest and they will get bored and fade away, which is what I will do now.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:38 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote:
Again I agree with you Mike, I think your point is correct, the misuse of the way aikido is trained can lead to some funny ideas but it sounds to me like you are bashing aikido in general, when I know you are not.
As a matter of fact, I even used a Judo analogy too, so that it would be clear that I wasn't singling out Aikido, Alec.
Quote:
You state that you are fed up with people role playing. Well if that's what us poor aikido fools are doing stop wasting so much energy trying to save us. If you feel there are a few of us out here who are serious then ignore the comments of the rest and they will get bored and fade away, which is what I will do now.
I'm not trying to save anyone at all. I enter these discussions because overall I get enough data and leads to make it worthwhile. It also gives me a chance to hear the questions, comments, etc., about the subject I'm interested in so that it assists me in the thinking process for a book I'm writing. So my "motives" are probably well outside of what you're imagining.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:46 AM   #28
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
So my "motives" are probably well outside of what you're imagining.
Mike, I didn't realize we were part of a social study for you to collect material for a book. I can "imagine" that quite well. You are not intending to insult my intelligence are you?

Quote:
As a matter of fact, I even used a Judo analogy too, so that it would be clear that I wasn't singling out Aikido, Alec.
Come on Mike, you mention Judo very occasionally, and in what I was quoting you were using aikido terminology specifically.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:47 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Another reason that I believe "call outs" are a bad idea.
In American society, it is illegal to respond to a verbal attack with a physical attack. That will land you in jail almost everytime; character flaw or not. The courts will likely hold a "martial artist" to a higher standard. So look at it from a consequences point of view. Expressing myself verbally in this forum will not likely land me in jail, but a physical response to those expressions probably will.
Ricky.... I need to introduce you to some people. You need to get out more. It'll change your perspective immensely to understand that the things you think will protect you are pretty flimsy indeed. I never forget a friend of mine, a notoriously bad bouncer in a bar that Hell's Angels frequented a lot... he listens to that stuff about "jail" for a second or two and then says, "My law starts after midnight".

Another big disconnect you seem to keep missing is that all of your justification about "saying what you want to say on a martial arts forum" is in direct contradiction with your cool sigs and web-pointers going to the "love" things. Do you see the contradiction? Is it the kind of contradiction that you think gives a good impression of Aikidoists? Or any martial art where there is this oft-babbled-about "Budo"?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:50 AM   #30
clwk
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Re: Called out.

Ricky,

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Another reason that I believe "call outs" are a bad idea.
In American society, it is illegal to respond to a verbal attack with a physical attack. That will land you in jail almost everytime; character flaw or not. The courts will likely hold a "martial artist" to a higher standard. So look at it from a consequences point of view. Expressing myself verbally in this forum will not likely land me in jail, but a physical response to those expressions probably will.
That line of reasoning sounds a lot to me like, "The bear is in a cage from which he cannot escape. As long as I stay at a safe distance on my side of the cage I am free to taunt him as much as I like." Whether or not that is true, it misses the point. The point is that it's generally a bad idea to provoke and taunt other creatures for sport. Playful exchange is not such a problem as long as the terms are relatively symmetrical. Provoking creatures which could maul you is a bad idea even if you have good reason to believe they will not. This is true for ethical *and* pragmatic reasons. Mutual respect *should* compel mature adults to communicate reasonably within the parameters of the medium; and common sense *should* compel martial artists to treat one another with respect.

Any discussion centering around exposition of a paradigm which everyone agrees is difficult or impossible to convey solely through words is implicitly part of a continuum involving eventual face-to-face and hands-on contact. It seems that most if not all active participants in these discussions are at least theoretically interested in and open to such meetings -- for the purpose of ameliorating the shortcomings of a forum like this. If your part of the discourse presupposes that physical clarification would be problematic and best avoided then you disqualify yourself as a participant in good faith of the actual discussion at hand.

Regards,
Chhi'mèd
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:55 AM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote:
Mike, I didn't realize we were part of a social study for you to collect material for a book. I can "imagine" that quite well. You are not intending to insult my intelligence are you?
Er, no.... Who said anything about a "social study"? I'm doing a book on internal strength skills. You're losing me with your assumptions and whatever logic they're leading you toward.
Quote:
Come on Mike, you mention Judo very occasionally, and in what I was quoting you were using aikido terminology specifically.
Same post, next sentence below what you quoted.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:02 AM   #32
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I enter these discussions because overall I get enough data and leads to make it worthwhile. It also gives me a chance to hear the questions, comments, etc., about the subject I'm interested in so that it assists me in the thinking process for a book I'm writing. So my "motives" are probably well outside of what you're imagining.
Dear lord. What kind of book are you writing that the random musings of otherwise bored aikidoka could possibly be a stimulant?

My suggestion is: Use lots of color pictures. That can compensate for a lot of shortcomings.

Avery
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:06 AM   #33
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Called out.

Mike,
There was a time in my life that I did hang around with the type of people you are talking about and most of them are now in jail. You see my point.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:10 AM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
Dear lord. What kind of book are you writing that the random musings of otherwise bored aikidoka could possibly be a stimulant?

My suggestion is: Use lots of color pictures. That can compensate for a lot of shortcomings.
Well, go back and look at some of the answers to specific ki and kokyu questions, as an example. Forcing me to formulate and articulate ideas helps me clarify things greatly. Questions about things I think are obvious already remind me to go back and fill in the gaps of my logic, repeatedly. Extraneous comments, suggestions, critiques, questions, challenges, etc., force me to think even more. Suggestions or addenda often add to what I already know or point me in the direction of a new information source I didn't previously know about.

The Japanese arts represent a repository of the ancient standardized Buddhist approaches to internal-strength development. That's why I'm here.... it's productive.... and that's also why I read other forums, too. The personality issues and any discussion thereof is simply one of the biggest time-wasters I've ever seen.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:10 AM   #35
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
Dear lord. What kind of book are you writing that the random musings of otherwise bored aikidoka could possibly be a stimulant?

My suggestion is: Use lots of color pictures. That can compensate for a lot of shortcomings.

Avery
Very funny Avery.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:10 AM   #36
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Er, no.... Who said anything about a "social study"? I'm doing a book on internal strength skills. You're losing me with your assumptions and whatever logic they're leading you toward. Same post, next sentence below what you quoted.

Cool. Skip the book though, you need to go direct to video. Put a teaser up on youtube, metacafe, etc. If you really want to do text, e-publish, your margins are higher and you can push-market your seminars.

Avery
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:12 AM   #37
Cady Goldfield
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Talking Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It also gives me a chance to hear the questions, comments, etc., about the subject I'm interested in so that it assists me in the thinking process for a book I'm writing.
Ah. That explains all of the socio-political threads and sparring sessions with Neil, et al., in the "Open Discussions" forum. What chapter will that information comprise? Sorry. Couldn't resist.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:17 AM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
Cool. Skip the book though, you need to go direct to video. Put a teaser up on youtube, metacafe, etc. If you really want to do text, e-publish, your margins are higher and you can push-market your seminars.
I did videos once. I wasn't happy with the results (people said they were great tapes but no one could demonstrate skills after watching them).... so I quit selling the tapes, even though they were making a lot of money. A book will just be a compendium for the next generation to use as one of many information sources. You can send me some pointers to info (in PM) about markets and margins and I'll be happy to read the info.

Seminars I've never done as anything more than an occasional hobby. I don't need the money and if I did, there are lots of things that make more money for the amount of invested time. I like my free time too much.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:19 AM   #39
Neil Mick
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
What chapter will that information comprise? Sorry. Couldn't resist.
"Chapter 10: Pseudo-Patriotic Virtual Pissing Matches, for Dummies."
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:20 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Ah. That explains all of the socio-political threads and sparring sessions with Neil, et al., in the "Open Discussions" forum. What chapter will that information comprise? Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Nah.... I just enjoy watching (OK, there's a lot of deliberate manipulation, but I've never tried to hide that fact) people and seeing what makes them work.

It's like when I was young and I met a friend of mine's brother who was "crazy". He seemed superficially normal to me and I was always trying to see what it took to establish a rapport of common sensibilities that would allow communication. In the long term, I've learned that there are more crazy people out there than I want to know about.

But yeah.... there's a part of me that is fascinated at watching what people do and why they do it. And you know just as well as I do that there are some bona fide whack-jobs (that's the technical term) on this forum. One of them posted right near this post.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:42 AM   #41
David Orange
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Another reason that I believe "call outs" are a bad idea.
In American society, it is illegal to respond to a verbal attack with a physical attack. That will land you in jail almost everytime;
Another important point is that "challenges" are usually prohibited by the rules of the forum. Of course, that isn't always the case, but where it is, a challenge should get you booted from the board right away.

However, that doesn't mean that, if you insult someone, he won't suddenly show up at your door. We can prevent much of this by not being insulting, but then there are people who just don't like your way of talking about things and decide to show up just because they don't like the image they get of you from what you post. And I don't think there is any way to prevent that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:45 AM   #42
David Orange
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote:
On the other side of the fence, nobody's ever called me out, and I can't imagine someone would, I'm a nice guy.
You are, huh? I see you live in CT, pal. I can drive up there on ONE DIAPER! Don't make me put my DIAPER on!!!!!

(I'm keeding!!)

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:51 AM   #43
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
but then there are people who just don't like your way of talking about things and decide to show up just because they don't like the image they get of you from what you post. And I don't think there is any way to prevent that.

David

Now that would be a sick puppy that did that.

We should all be able to take the banter but let's leave personal attacks out. If you go so far as to start with private email to an individual don't expect that to be treated as if on an open forum. I am getting extremely uncomfortable with the personal repartee I see starting here so I will leave. Even if I am not involved I am the type of person that becomes uncomfortable reading such stuff. So Long.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:54 AM   #44
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, that doesn't mean that, if you insult someone, he won't suddenly show up at your door. We can prevent much of this by not being insulting, but then there are people who just don't like your way of talking about things and decide to show up just because they don't like the image they get of you from what you post. And I don't think there is any way to prevent that.
Well, maybe, maybe not. Think of it like this: There is a lot of discussion about "steroid rage", the idea that one of the side-effects to weight-lifters who use roids is that the drugs induce some sort of loss of emotional control. But there are people who dispute that idea and nothing has been totally proven one way or the other.... and there's another theory. In that theory comes the idea that a lot of people who become very strong, martially capable, etc., turn into "bad people". I.e., they sort of become bullies. Because they can. And in my experiences, I've seen this happen a lot. A guy who gets a little power keeps less control on the asshole side of his personality, in too many cases.

Same thing with a keyboard. Suddenly there's this power to say all sorts of obnoxious things (often in passive-aggressive ways, too) and the a-hole side comes out.

Now the curious thing to me has been to personally meet some of these people and I've done by happenstance and/or design over the years. To make a long story short, most of them are suddenly quite polite.... but also I've never left with a different idea than this: someone who initiates asshole behavior and personal jabs on the internet is usually a person of "bad heart", no matter what 'sage' role they think they're playing, even in person. They're invariably phonies and the way they do things on the internet is a remarkably good indicator. Personally, I admit that I have an aversion to potential bullies in the martial arts... so I tend to hound them just a little bit.

So that's an alternative to your comments, David.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:58 AM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
You are, huh? I see you live in CT, pal. I can drive up there on ONE DIAPER! Don't make me put my DIAPER on!!!!!
I was kind of stunned to see the number of "political cartoons" poking fun at this obviously unhinged lady astronaut. It's one thing when something that silly and incoherent is done by a deliberative process; when it's done by a mentally/emotionally unbalanced person, the jokes are normal and fine, but for the papers to mock someone like that seems odd and misplaced to me.

Sorry for off topic.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:00 PM   #46
dhebert
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Re: Called out.

I am always fascinated by the level interest that this forum has in this topic. I myself have enjoyed reading all the comments, so its pull is manifest. However, I am also very interested in the idea of the warrior as a servant and keeper of the boundaries. In this context I would like to think I would fight when it is my duty do so. This includes such things as defending my family from harm, protecting children from abuse, self-defense, etc. From this point of view "calling someone out" or responding to such challenges for no particular reason simply seems to be selfish and counter to the values of encouraging good human relations. There is a lot of violence in our communities and it happens all to easily. Creating a civil society is hard work.

Respectfully,

Don Hebert
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:08 PM   #47
Neil Mick
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I think "calling out" belongs in the catigory that I would call Macho bullshit. It belongs to the class of things that 15-24 year old males need to do on a regular basis to find out if they are strong, and where they belong in the pack. That being said, I've been on both sides of a calling out too many times. The sucky thing about Aikido is, I believe it's a weapon system, and it's techniques don't work well empty handed.
Yes, but also remember that some ppl do not regard Aikido as a fighting art. They use it for other things. So, are these ppl "less" of MA's than the 15-24y.o. yahoo's that regard the Art as a chest beating exercise?

Is, say, Molly Hale less of a MA because she is confined to a wheelchair, some of the time? No, of course not. Aikido can be used for all sorts of ends. Self-protection is only one way.

And, this idea of "calling someone out" to prove your "martial capability" is immature, unless it's done in a noncompetitive spirit.

Just, IMO.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:20 PM   #48
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote:
From this point of view "calling someone out" or responding to such challenges for no particular reason simply seems to be selfish and counter to the values of encouraging good human relations. There is a lot of violence in our communities and it happens all to easily. Creating a civil society is hard work.
Theoretically, I agree with your point, Don. However, it becomes apparent time after time that when you don't respond to "attackers" and "call them out" (in any mode of society), they simply get worse, not better. In other words, a certain amount of normalized social deterrence of bad behaviour happens when the "bad guys" understand that they can't just do things at whim.

One of the interesting things I noted over the years in both the Aikido and Taiji communities was that the "peace and love" crowd actually became almost fascist in the way they controlled what was proper to say and think. Many ideals, for instance, were ascribed to O-Sensei that he neither meant nor obeyed in his own actions. But all sorts of coincidentally trendy cultural-behavior modes were imprinted with "Aiki" this and "Aiki" that. It's a fascinating subject. We should do another thread on it somewhere.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:31 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yes, but also remember that some ppl do not regard Aikido as a fighting art. They use it for other things.
I've seen this same argument in a few other instances, notably some of the Taiji factions. There's a common-sense approach where you just shrug it off and let Aikido mean whatever someone wants it to mean. "Martial art" also seems to mean whatever people want it to mean, all too often.

But let's use Taiji as an example for a minute because I can make the broader point with it. Some people teach "Tai Chi" to health and sell lessons to it. Some people teach it as a "manifestation of the Tao" and they sell it as "Tai Chi". Some people talk about the power of Tai Chi and they sell all sorts of versions and approaches. And so on. Not all of these things that are being sold as Tai Chi do what real Tai Chi can do. In fact, damned few of them do much in comparison to real Tai Chi because the "secrets" are still fairly closely held. So an element of fraud is allowed to creep in when nobody points out to a neophyte that not all Tai Chi is the real stuff. I.e., it's worthwhile to say what real Tai Chi is, what real Aikido is, and so forth. Allowing anything to be Aikido is to allow the art to dilute..... yet if someone really "loves" their art, how could they willingly allow it to dilute?

If someone is doing a martially ineffective version of Aikido, they should have the courage to step up and say so. Pretending all things called "Aikido" are equally valid is a fairly silly bit of post-modernism relevancy. (Incidentally, Neil, I'm just stump-orating, not pointing any fingers. ).

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 12:32 PM   #50
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Called out.

Along the vein of "calling out," I remember the days of dojo/kwoon storming when I was much younger. Who'da thunk that here in the civilized US of A, martial arts people would be calling each other out from their hole-in-the-wall schools in New York, LA, Boston, elsewhere? Before I saw it with my own eyes in the dojang where I trained (a respected, "legit above-ground school"), I thought it was the stuff of Hong Kong chop-sockey movies I used to sneak out to see in Boston's Chinatown.

But I think that in these cases, the purpose was as much economic and "politically" driven as it might have been ego-driven, usually on the part of the individual(s) doing the calling-out or storming. Students might dojo storm to see who is the "bestest, toughest, baddest" art and school in town, while their teachers might encourage it to win students and dollars at the bottom line. The reputation becomes a marketing tool that functions the same way in the "underworld" of MA as Yellow Pages ads do in the "legitimate" MA world.

Conversely, I've seen honorable-type martial artists send students out to storm schools that they perceived to be trashing the good reputation of an art or style. They'd send a friendly warning first that the offending school/instructor needed to clean up his act, and if that didn't work, they sent a squad to "close the school down."

Interesting stuff, but better mused about from outside the fray.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-08-2007 at 12:36 PM.
 

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