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Old 02-07-2007, 09:28 PM   #1
gdandscompserv
 
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Called out.

This comment:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Most of these 'martial artists' would be stunned to have someone physically call them out for loose lips.
got me wondering how many of you have been 'called out' by another martial artist. I'm not really sure what Mike meant by this but I think it's worth discussion. I have trained with people who have been very non-cooperative and I consider that somewhat of a 'calling out,' but I haven't had another martial artist openly challenge me to a physical contest of sorts to determine who's stuff works the best. I do wonder how I would react to such a 'calling out.' I'm pretty sure I would simply decline the challenge so don't get no funny ideas Mike.
Please share your thoughts/experiences in this regard.
 
Old 02-07-2007, 09:38 PM   #2
eyrie
 
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Re: Called out.

Being "called out" means that what you say, or what you say you can do, is not in reality what you actually know or can do. Make sense? If you have no idea what people are talking about, but make out like you do, sometimes the words you use will betray your level of knowledge.

Sometimes, all a person has to do is "touch" you to know if you have the "goods" - i.e. the ability to do what you say you can do...

So... consider yourself "called out"...

Ignatius
 
Old 02-07-2007, 09:55 PM   #3
David Orange
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Being "called out" means that what you say, or what you say you can do, is not in reality what you actually know or can do. Make sense?
eyrie,

In the US, calling someone out means literally to challenge them, like standing outside their home and calling them to come out and fight. That's what Mike was talking about. You claim you can do something and someone will "call you out," meaning, literally, to challenge you to prove it in a physical bout.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If you have no idea what people are talking about, but make out like you do, sometimes the words you use will betray your level of knowledge.
This is true, but only to a degree.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 02-07-2007, 10:28 PM   #4
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Change the imaginary scenario, Ricky. You come out and make a flippant, disparaging remark to a martial artist and you're suddenly surprised at the idea that it could ever come back and haunt you? Isn't that sort of a puzzling perspective? I can see it if we were on a poetry list and someone just got careless with the gratuitous remarks.... take it as a compliment that I assume someone on a martial arts list is a martial artist and is "calling out" a person when they make insulting remarks.

Surely, an experienced martial artist knows enough to be polite and not pick a fight they won't follow up on... at least that would be my reasoning.

See the compliment? You pick a fight and someone takes you seriously.... what could be better than that, Ricky? Someone is taking you for what you say you are. Any serious martial artist who didn't want to get into an altercation would keep his personal comments to himself. That's why most martial artists tend to be fairly polite.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-07-2007, 10:55 PM   #5
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Change the imaginary scenario, Ricky. You come out and make a flippant, disparaging remark to a martial artist and you're suddenly surprised at the idea that it could ever come back and haunt you?
Would you be so kind as to point out the 'flippant, disparaging remark' that I made? It doesn't really surprise me that you might want to "call me out," since your on-line personna strikes me as somewhat of a bully. It's all good though.
Since you are under the impression that I am 'picking a fight,' let me assure you it's only a cyber fight that I desire to pick with you. I'm confident that a physical altercation would be unpleasant for both of us and would be contrary to everything I believe in. But regarding this forum, I offer the following advise; If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Now, back on topic.
Your experiences and/or anecdotes on being called out, challenged, etc., would be appreciated.

Last edited by gdandscompserv : 02-07-2007 at 11:07 PM.
 
Old 02-07-2007, 11:16 PM   #6
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Re: Called out.

I've never been called out, I have called people out though. Never another martial artist though. Just wannabe's. I'm lucky enough to have a natural gift in figuring out who can kick my butt, and who can't.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 02-08-2007, 08:46 AM   #7
Cyrijl
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Re: Called out.

I think Don has it right.

There are power structures in every aspect of life. The key is being able to figure out when you can win and when you can't. And along with this, the times where doing what is right outweights the previous decision.

At any rate, I have been thinking alot of "calling people out". I am not a great fighter. I might not even be a good fighter. But I know I am alot better than some of those people out there claiming extraordinary skill. But I have decided it serves no purpose to go to these schools and call them out. If i go alone i risk being jumped, if I go with a group of people they will fear being mobbed. I just generally decide to keep my mouth shut. I grin and bear it everytime someone tells me they do kung fu, aikido, etc. and explain to me their great tricks...oops i mean techniques.

I understand you do not like confrontation Ricky, but being unwilling to take a stand does not excuse you from your responsibility in the world. It does not make oyu right or superior. Just thought I'd share that with you. The idea that a physical confrontation is somehow worse than some half-baked cyber one is pretty telling on your part.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
 
Old 02-08-2007, 08:49 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Called out.

Hmm...If I did get around to having to call someone out, whether I would win or lose shouldn't be part of the equation I think. If it's worth fighting for, it's worth fighting for even if I lose. Any other perspective to me is...kind of playground, I think...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 02-08-2007, 08:50 AM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
It doesn't really surprise me that you might want to "call me out," since your on-line personna strikes me as somewhat of a bully. It's all good though.
Really? Have you ever thought about what your personna comes across as to me? And not just in the last thread. Notice that I try to stick to the issues, more or less, but that I'll respond to someone making a personal remark to see what sort of person they are. You contribute nothing. You have constantly wanted to slip in your "feelings". You post touchy-feely sigs like that justifies you for who you are. In short, you're not really my idea of a martial artist. You'd be an embarrassment as a representative of Ueshiba's dojo, for example. Your best comeback to that comment of mine is that "you're just having fun" and so on, which leads us straight back to the same idea..... you're not much of a martial artist. You're a slight embarrassment to the whole idea of martial arts because you're more of a role-player.

It's very easy to spot the people who are serious martial artists. The ones who choose not to act like martial artists while among martial artists have no beef when somone wants to check their oil.
Quote:
..let me assure you it's only a cyber fight that I desire to pick with you. I'm confident that a physical altercation would be unpleasant for both of us and would be contrary to everything I believe in.
So you're a Keyboard Kommando, then. How much respect do you think a Keyboard Kommand rates when he talks to martial artists?

You see the best solution. If you have personal remarks (and you've accumulated a few by now) do what most others do and keep them to yourself. If you have a personal problem, take it to private mail or go see the guy. Don't embarrass your art. Don't act upset when wannabe martial artists making off-topic comments get an (unsurprising) negative reaction.

You want stories? I've seen every variety you can think of, even down to someone getting shot dead and some people getting maimed for life. That's why I'm always surprised when some idiot goes up to someone they don't really know and starts screwing with them like "this is safe because I'm behind my keyboard." You're used to dealing with kids, if that's your attitude.

I remember having a few beers with my old buddy Frankie Salerno (Boston guy... runner for the mob after he left the service... screwed with the wrong guy and got killed). We were in a bar on Okinawa and 2 Air Force guys came in. Ultimately one of them started jacking with Frankie and after about 10 minutes Frankie and I just shook our heads and stood up. When Frankie took off his leather jacket and the one guy saw how huge Frankie's arms were, the guy suddenly fell on the floor and started crying, begging Frankie "Oh god, oh god, don't kill me!". It was pretty funny. These two clowns had their own idea of having some "fun" that evening, but they didn't stop to think that it wasn't fun for other people who might not enjoy being made a part of their game.

You want respect, Ricky? Debate the issues with me... not personalities. You wanna play? You need to play with your pals. You want me to respect you? Act like a thoughtful and serious martial artist. Then I'll treat you like one and you'll find, voila', we get along.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 09:07 AM   #10
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Re: Called out.

I have been called out by name.
I have shown up.

I have never called anybody out.
Its a waste of time.

I do agree.
Don't say it if you don't want to be called on it.
Talk and walk what you do know.
Listen and learn to what you don't.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:06 AM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
I do agree.
Don't say it if you don't want to be called on it.
Talk and walk what you do know.
Listen and learn to what you don't.
I've got enough of a background, including some fairly hard times in combat, that most "martial arts" appears to be a nice hobby, sort of like wood-working, with some occasionally interesting (or even fascinating) aspects imbedded in them. Talking about real martial arts stuff is, to me, like sitting around the woodworking shop with a bunch of pals, discussing what's the best way to route out a dovetail joint. I.e., it's a very clinical thing with a lot of fine details.

Where I get dumbfounded in martial-arts is when I run into the people who are role-playing and who have been so involved in role-playing for so many years that they genuinely believe in the fantasy world they have built up and which a number of their friends play along with them.

Think about it. Everything is there for some serious mind-shenanigans. Uniforms. A "leader" and pecking-order hierarchy. Exotic rituals. Foreign words that must be used as part of the ritual. Cooperative training that helps confirm that the play is "real" as long as it's kept within the secret meeting hall (the dojo). And so on. Bear in mind that there is a huge difference in the symbolism of all these things in the minds of a Japanese from the mind of a westerner.

What I'm slowly getting around to is that the role-playing (sure some of it is good stuff; it's not all junk, so don't get me wrong) leads into a world with its own values. When I take my "woodworking", practical mentality and try to have a discussion with someone who believes (to some degree) in a fantasy world with exotic rituals, leaders who must be "respected" for their belt color, and so on.... there can quite often be a big disconnect and even some friction from the "true believers" who sense a heretic in their midst.

The real problem is that a lot of the fantasy martial artists (not everyone in western martial arts is one of these, let me stipulate.... just too many of them) don't seem to realize that in their fantasy they are usurping a lot of the terminology and then insisting that their way is the correct view. Just to mention a quick example, most of the "Tai Chi" in the US is fantasy-based, but it uses all the original Tai Chi (Taiji is the preferred spelling, nowadays, and more accurately shows that the correct pronunciation is "Tai Jee", not "Tai Chee"). When member of a lot of the western Taiji community saw some of the real Taiji experts from China in the early 1980's, they were dumbfounded. Real Taiji is a powerful martial art, not a fantasy role. The "exotic words" don't mean what some of the westerners thought. So many of the westerners simply refused to go and learn real Taiji.... it would mean that they would have to lose "face" and become beginners again, rather than be allowed to continue in their fantasies as knowledgeable Chinese sages.

I.e., there is a resistance to letting one's fantasy-bubbles get popped. And there is a lot of anger directed, by the fantasy believers, at anyone who doesn't "respect" the current game and its rules.

The point being that there is a huge difference between someone looking to find out everything possible about martial arts and someone whose goal is more oriented at protecting the status quo where they are "somebody".

Most of these "frictions" and "getting called out" that I see the real martial arts types get into on a lot of martial arts forums is the friction between the "non-fantasy-world" types and the "fantasy-world" types who are more interested in protecting the game than in penetrating the core.

My opinion, FWIW

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:22 AM   #12
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Called out.

Well, this seems like an interesting topic. As you can see everyone has there own idea of what "calling out" means. To some it means showing up at a dojo and arranging some type of match that I'm assuming would include some arbitrary rules. Those rules would inherently favor some types of martial artists while putting others at a disadvantage. Let me illustrate. Let's say I called out an iaido practitioner. Would he fight me empty handed? Would I fight him weaponless? Well that would all depend on the rules. Without these prearranged rules, whatever took place would surely end up in the court systems. If I were to accept a calling out from someone, what would be the ground rules? Would it be a duel to the death? Would we be using weapons? That would certainly get ugly. And who would be the judge of the outcome. If you broke my arm and I broke your wrist, who would be the winner?
I am not looking for anyone's "respect." I think a forum is a bad place to seek out that respect. If someone has a problem with the way I express myself, they are certainly free to express their displeasure. A forum is a good place for doing just that.
I certainly don't mind being "called out." Just don't expect me to show up. I have nothing to prove.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:28 AM   #13
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Called out.

There are real people behind the words. The words mean honor for some and just words for other. The cyber world is just a plain ride away from the real world. I have told this story in other forums so I will just bare bone it here. When Aikido-l was very young in the 80's and hosted by a university a fellow took exception with me and lunched a personal attack. Me, being naive and perhaps stupid, took it personally and real. My wife and I could barely pay our bills yet I bought a airplane ticket and showed up at a man's door. It turns out it was his 13 year old son using his account to attack me. I use a little more tact nowadays but underneath I am still the same guy. Words hold different value for some people.

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Old 02-08-2007, 10:29 AM   #14
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Re: Called out.

I feel that the tendency to be called out is directly related to the propensity one feels to be insulting to another - for reasons of "saving the truth," "upholding the right," "defending the worthy,". There are ways of being that can keep one professional and/or cordial without the deluded fantasy of defending what HAS TO BE DEFENDED at all costs. These ways of being are directly related to not having a need to affront the honor of another. It's not that hard to not be called out, nor is it difficult to not feel the need to call someone out. Both are only as difficult as one has a difficult time being who he/she is without needing to lower or degrade the Other to be or remain that person. If you can't do this, everyone and everything is a threat to you - to your way of living, to your way of thinking, to your way of doing. When we hit this point, we're probably sick, maybe insane - probably trying to self-medicate in one form or another, etc. That should be a clue for us - the possibility of a turning point, where we can and should ask, "Why does this always happen to me?" and where we stop believing our usual answer of, "Because folks are afraid of the truth."

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:41 AM   #15
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Re: Called out.

David,
Once again you strike to the heart of the matter.
Thank You.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:43 AM   #16
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
This comment:
got me wondering how many of you have been 'called out' by another martial artist. I'm not really sure what Mike meant by this but I think it's worth discussion. I have trained with people who have been very non-cooperative and I consider that somewhat of a 'calling out,' but I haven't had another martial artist openly challenge me to a physical contest of sorts to determine who's stuff works the best. I do wonder how I would react to such a 'calling out.' I'm pretty sure I would simply decline the challenge so don't get no funny ideas Mike.
Please share your thoughts/experiences in this regard.
To paraphrase Funakoshi Sensei, "If it is not important enough for you or the other guy to die for you shouldn't be fighting". There's almost always a way to avoid the fight if you don't care about your own self importance.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Aikido Eastside
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:48 AM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I feel that the tendency to be called out is directly related to the propensity one feels to be insulting to another - for reasons of "saving the truth," "upholding the right," "defending the worthy,". There are ways of being that can keep one professional and/or cordial without the deluded fantasy of defending what HAS TO BE DEFENDED at all costs. These ways of being are directly related to not having a need to affront the honor of another. It's not that hard to not be called out, nor is it difficult to not feel the need to call someone out. Both are only as difficult as one has a difficult time being who he/she is without needing to lower or degrade the Other to be or remain that person. If you can't do this, everyone and everything is a threat to you - to your way of living, to your way of thinking, to your way of doing. When we hit this point, we're probably sick, maybe insane - probably trying to self-medicate in one form or another, etc. That should be a clue for us - the possibility of a turning point, where we can and should ask, "Why does this always happen to me?" and where we stop believing our usual answer of, "Because folks are afraid of the truth."
Oh, that sounds a little like projection to me. Think of it more as the ante in a poker game... you wanna play, you gotta pay. If someone does "Martial Art A" and it's really focused on self-help, role-playing, a few "sensei's" selling themselves, and so on, it should be called something else than a "martial art". The one big glob of info I've been mulling for over a month is that *apparently* Tohei Sensei stepped up and said that his Aikido style is not a martial art. If all of Aikido is not a martial art, and everyone admits/accepts that, then what you say *may* be true, David. However, each sentence that I write this, I keep picturing some of the demo's I saw hosted on your website a year or so ago .... I have some reservations about the motivations behind your comments.


BTW.... bear this in mind, too. I have several friends that go back in Aikido many, many years. They don't come to this forum or others simply because they've visited before and got the impression that most of the posters are not really representative of the ideals they hold for Aikido. They've publicly said as much. I.e., they don't agree with a lot of the people that have had the upper hand in posting on some of the forums. And it happened more than once. They disagree and it kept happening..... does that imply to you that there was something wrong with them, David? I'd bet not. So maybe you were just trying to take a jab of your own, disguising it as a moralism.... leading us back to the type of people who post again.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:52 AM   #18
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Called out.

I think "calling out" belongs in the catigory that I would call Macho bullshit. It belongs to the class of things that 15-24 year old males need to do on a regular basis to find out if they are strong, and where they belong in the pack. That being said, I've been on both sides of a calling out too many times. The sucky thing about Aikido is, I believe it's a weapon system, and it's techniques don't work well empty handed. You don't want to use weapons in a calling out (often considerd cheating, you're only trying to establish dominance not kill someone), which puts the Aikidoka at a disadvantage in a "calling out".

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-08-2007 at 10:59 AM.

 
Old 02-08-2007, 10:54 AM   #19
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
To paraphrase Funakoshi Sensei, "If it is not important enough for you or the other guy to die for you shouldn't be fighting". There's almost always a way to avoid the fight if you don't care about your own self importance.
There was a saying that my old geometry teacher used to tell us and make us repeat..... " when you're well off, stay well off and keep your mouth shut". There's plenty to be learned from other martial artists without having to get into a discussion of individual personalities. If I let the personalities divert my focus, I'd never get any information.



Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:03 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Far more fun to show up at a seminar that someone is at and prove to them then and there what you are talking about.
So how does that work, Chris? This has always been an intriguing question to me when someone says something like, "Oh, if you want to get trashed, go to the next seminar with Ohuku Sensei and watch what he does to you." So I have this picture where I do a nice Tsuki or Yokomenuchi and he breaks my arm. Or I give him katatetori and he nikkyo's me into agony. Is that how you "prove" something on the mat, Chris?

Of if some judo guy wants to kick my butt on the mat.... do I put on a gi and to get in the approved stance/grip and wait for the "Hajime!"?

Let's get the conversation back .... read a few of the responses that essentially are trying to say, "well if someone provokes you, you shouldn't do anything because that proves a character flaw on the respondent's point". It's very interesting to read the dichotomy. I'm afraid I'm on the side of "don't bet on the guy you piss off being of such noble character that he won't swat you down". And I'd add.... anyone who thinks the character flaw is on the side of the respondent, not the original smart-mouth, those people need to re-think their whole lives. What the respondent does may or may not be the right thing, but that's beside the point.

My 2 cents.

Mike
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:14 AM   #21
Dazzler
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
There are real people behind the words. The words mean honor for some and just words for other. The cyber world is just a plain ride away from the real world. I have told this story in other forums so I will just bare bone it here. When Aikido-l was very young in the 80's and hosted by a university a fellow took exception with me and lunched a personal attack. Me, being naive and perhaps stupid, took it personally and real. My wife and I could barely pay our bills yet I bought a airplane ticket and showed up at a man's door. It turns out it was his 13 year old son using his account to attack me. I use a little more tact nowadays but underneath I am still the same guy. Words hold different value for some people.
This makes me smile Dennis. I've made similar mistakes but not gone to such impressive lengths to right a perceived wrong.

I see something in the underlying attitude though that applies across the board to me - if the wrong person is disrespected then expect a fight.

Doesn't matter if he's done aikido, BJJ TKD or nothing at all.

Some people have thresholds which when they are crossed prevent them from living with themselves.

And this to me is why effectiveness comes down to the individual everytime and to me overrides many of the arguments over which training method is superior.

Perhaps its more about what someone is prepared to do rather than what he has trained to do and the training method chosen is a personal thing to polish whatever they have.

Personally - I've found Aikido has helped me move my threshold up many levels - Looking at the short fuses of many of my oldest friends and family I don't think this is just the process of growing older.

Anyway - thanks for the story - It is a good one.

Regards

D
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:18 AM   #22
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Called out.

Another reason that I believe "call outs" are a bad idea.
In American society, it is illegal to respond to a verbal attack with a physical attack. That will land you in jail almost everytime; character flaw or not. The courts will likely hold a "martial artist" to a higher standard. So look at it from a consequences point of view. Expressing myself verbally in this forum will not likely land me in jail, but a physical response to those expressions probably will.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:22 AM   #23
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Re: Called out.

Quote:
I remember having a few beers with my old buddy Frankie Salerno (Boston guy... runner for the mob after he left the service... screwed with the wrong guy and got killed). We were in a bar on Okinawa and 2 Air Force guys came in. Ultimately one of them started jacking with Frankie and after about 10 minutes Frankie and I just shook our heads and stood up. When Frankie took off his leather jacket and the one guy saw how huge Frankie's arms were, the guy suddenly fell on the floor and started crying, begging Frankie "Oh god, oh god, don't kill me!". It was pretty funny. These two clowns had their own idea of having some "fun" that evening, but they didn't stop to think that it wasn't fun for other people who might not enjoy being made a part of their game.

Mike, I'm splitting a gut with this story. Too bad I'm at work.
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:26 AM   #24
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Re: Called out.

Daren I do believe we are a product of environment and upbringing. Seeds planted early root deep. I have had some people raised with privilege (comparatively speaking) ridicule me for being such a base person even though I have three university degrees and have been trying to civilize myself with Aikido (and other budo) for 40 years. When one is raised in a place of extreme poverty by proud people honor is sometimes the only bread on the table. One does not forget that easily. I can now appreciate how others react to stimuli but I see it as no more valid than my reaction with my core values.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 02-08-2007, 11:30 AM   #25
Avery Jenkins
 
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Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 139
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Re: Called out.

When used correctly, rather than as a form of paleolithic breast-beating, calling someone out is actually a useful strategy. I've done it three times in my life, all three times ended with my objective accomplished. Even in retrospect, with the opportunity and knowledge to consider alternative strategies, what I did was ok. Maybe not the best in terms of risk avoidance, but ethically sound and, as I said, the objective was achieved.

On the other side of the fence, nobody's ever called me out, and I can't imagine someone would, I'm a nice guy.

Avery
 

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