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Old 02-13-2007, 11:34 PM   #126
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Michael F wrote:

Quote:
Re: This aint UFC!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm guessing Michael's point is that that may be the goal in theory but in practice it's not what he observes...
Oh...no questions in practice we do lots of different things. the goal of practice is to study options and the full spectrum of dynamic movement...especially in aikido.

Just like in BJJ right. when you first start you a little cause you don't know what to do. then you get to be a blue belt and you move alot because you have lots of new toys to play with. Then you get to be a purple belt, and you move less because you start figuring out what really works for you.

We do need to be careful I think about not transferring what we practice for learning to reality sometimes.

From that standpoint I'd agree with Michael...that aikido is not about efficiency. If it were only concerned with this aspect then we would be limiting ourselves and probably practicing RBSD crap that was narrowed focused.

So circularly...maybe I do agree with him in theory.
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Old 02-14-2007, 03:00 AM   #127
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Re: This aint UFC!

Ah yes the age old question. What is the best martial art for loners who like to go out by them selves to biker bars populated by huge men armed with pool cues, and where the floor is equal parts broken glass and molten lava, and then look to make trouble.....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:15 AM   #128
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Re: This aint UFC!

Justin,
If you offer no alternatives, please stop criticizing. It is easy to criticize anything and everything. Have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever sparred full contact? If you look at the early UFC most people did not know who they were going to fight, there were no weight classes, canvas is not cushy (it has springs).

Quote:
Relying on hope is not wise, however
Then what are you relying on. At lease kevin, don and I have an idea of what works and what does not work. What are you basing your opinion on if not hope? Jun might have to step in soon because I can only use logic and reasoning so much.

You attitude reminds me of the dim mak guys. And, if you search the web you can see how well they fare in a physical confrontation. If you are over 18 (which I doubt) and live within driving distance to me in MA, I would be happy to invite you to my judo or bjj club to do some sparring. You can even bring friends.

Your arguments sounds like this to me:
"Yeah but what if they shoot your with a sniper rifle from 1000yds away, or what if they drop a bomb on you"
You can only have better or worse defense. No defense is perfect.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 02-14-2007, 05:54 PM   #129
DH
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Re: This aint UFC!

What is an efficient use of force in a minimal effort?
To do what?
Stay in a stressed environment for a prolonged period of time trying to use less force to control the situation. All while risking mistakes?
Or is the best use of force actually MORE effort to end it quickly.
Define efficient?
Define environment?

While the environment and use of force may change, if you have the ability to use maximum force, you just may have edge on any lower level requirements.
When is hyper aggressive, well balanced tactical mayhem a more efficient use of force? Most people have never felt or experienced a trained man going-off on them. Well-trained, sustained, aggression is pretty efficient combatively. Both due to the psychological benefit of overwhelming an even trained people, and the physical elements of shortening their timing and defensive responses. There is serious tactical advantages to hyper-aggression in order to increase the odds of totally dominating them physically and mentally. And if you can do so while YOU remain calm the feedback is sometimes fascinating.
So, if your actually fighting, I think you may just find that you have to extend an effort. This "use his force against him" is fine in any grappling sense, but if someone with training is standing on the outside and playing you and picking you apart-minimum effort ideas just may not be the way to go.
And the presumption, as usually expressed here, is one of defense. What if we want to bring it? For the mild viewers let say what if you want to defend someone else from being attacked. I say "want" because the milder peaceniks may "want" to let the girl be raped while they try to talk the guy into a peaceful resolution
For the rest of us normal folk-if we need to attack, you may find the best use of efficient force is not minimal. Full power strikes and kicks (we can leave internal, whole body, power out of this) and body throws may be just the ticket for "best use of minimal effort"
Why?
You may it end quickly.
Dan
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:54 PM   #130
DH
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Re: This aint UFC!

Aikiweb has been acting up and I lost my chance to edit.
The caveate to that post should have been I was discussing external means for external fighting in response to those who were debating use of force. Nothing more.
I've left out any discussion of the most efficient ways to generate power or engage power. I wanted to simply dicuss the tactical advantages to use-of-force without being side tracked.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-14-2007 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:20 PM   #131
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Re: This aint UFC!

Interesting Dan.

We actually teach our guys in the Army to close the distance and fight through and to fight hard, once you seize the iniative or are attack you go forward into the fight and try to gain dominance.

I learned along time ago...the hard way, you are either in the fight, or not. If you are not....make sure the other guy understands that you are not in the fight....otherwise you are getting your ass kicked.

My experiences have been that it is more dangerous typically to disengage and reduce force if you do not have control of the situation, this includes knife fights as well...at least as much as you can avoid being cut...which is admittedly difficult.

Statistically though, even in a knife fight, i have found it still better to close the distance once inside of effective range and take the fight to the person until you acheive dominance of the situation.

use of force, escalation of force, or minimal force have their place...but once you have crossed the line into the fight, you must fight hard until you have achieved dominance, THEN you can start discussing next actoins IRT minimal force etc.

This has nothing to do with internal or external training...those are different subjects..I agree.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:10 AM   #132
Zeb Leonard
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Re: This aint UFC!

from the website of SBGi, the section on 'street vs sport' :
"Just to add on to James point. This past weekend I arrested one half of a domestic battery. As I am taking him into the booking area to turn him over to the jailers he doubles over, falls to his knees and starts bellowing and puking. I asked him what his problem is and he says his stomach hurts. The jailer calls for a rescue and he is taken to the emergency room. The doc asks what happened, I tell him I have no idea, he was choking the life out of his brother when I showed up, all I did was spray him. Doc checks his stomach, looks around and than says his testicles have ascended..., Later his cousin said that during the fight he had hit him in the nads approximately 30-40 times as hard as he could while he was choking him. Didn't stop him from choking him unconscious."

http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:31 AM   #133
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Re: This aint UFC!

Well...

I can't argue with those Straight Blast Gym guys... they have a good point

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:14 AM   #134
Zeb Leonard
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Re: This aint UFC!

of course some other (perhaps less 'motivated') guy might let go of the choke as soon as he gets hit but I guess thats the whole point
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:42 AM   #135
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Re: This aint UFC!

Yup, you are correct! Good post Zeb.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:23 PM   #136
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
If you offer no alternatives, please stop criticizing.
The alternative is to not commit that particular logical fallacy I referred to.

Quote:
Have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever sparred full contact?
Yes and yes. But, I'm wondering, do you ask if Ebert has ever directed a movie because he is a movie critic, and if so, does that add or subtract to your disagreement with Ebert's criticism?

Quote:
If you look at the early UFC most people did not know who they were going to fight, there were no weight classes, canvas is not cushy (it has springs).
How did the fighters get invited to the event if they weren't known. And yes, canvas is relatively cushy when compared to concrete.

But if you're going to look at what, 3 or so UFCs, what, like 30 fights, many by the same people, a business, and extrapolate that to all fighting in general, to what can and can't happen in real life, that isn't too convincing.

Quote:
If you are over 18 (which I doubt) and live within driving distance to me in MA, I would be happy to invite you to my judo or bjj club to do some sparring. You can even bring friends.
Your judo or bjj skills don't concern me.

Additionally, I already know martial arts are effective, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to show. Perhaps you could run your logic by me on what you hoped to accomplish with your 'challenge', and how it had anything at all to do with my article.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:15 PM   #137
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Re: This aint UFC!

Hi Kevin
Actually I knew you would agree anyway- due to your previous posts and due to what you do. I wrote it for the less experienced Martial "artists" who may never have had their asses in serious trouble. Some of us need no reminding of where minumal force can or cannot be entertained. Others may need a clearer picture.

I dissagree with Justin point about "Already knowing the martial arts are effective."
No they're not. Not by long shot. They are tools.
Men are effective.
It takes skill and understanding to avoid the martial arts propensities for getting -in the way- of our ability to fight.
If we really pay attention, instead of a hinderence- they can even be used to help.
Everybody else just ends up looking like...well....martial "artists."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-16-2007 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 02-17-2007, 03:44 AM   #138
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: This aint UFC!

Yes, Martial Arts can be a tool or methodology to make you effective. It depends on how you want to be effective and what elements. I have found no one art that in all inclusive for sure.

Justin offers the old UFC ain't real argument that has been debated since the UFC came out. Actually I bought it for the longest time and paid the price of years of lost training.

If you look closely at the dynamics of fighting, general patterns..etc. you see elements that are common in just about all fights. UFC, Pride, and other sport fighting venues do offer us a great deal of reality to be learned, and have spawned some pretty darn good schools from which to learn from as well.

The Early UFCs especially were of value because of there realitive lack of rules and varying degrees, paradigms of fighting. Any one remember Fred Ettish VS Johnny Rhodes, UFC 2? Not to beat up on Ettish, he was a brave man and did well mentally as a warrior in that fight, he simply did not have the tools to respond appropriately. Check out Google for details concerning what many have to say, interesting read.

Basically Ettish fought from the fetal position once his kamae was broken.


Essentially Dan is correct..men are effective. When we debate effectiveness holistically from a style or an artistic standpoint...say like aikido or UFC, inevitiably we will have areas of weakness and areas up for discussion about the strengths, weaknesses in various situations in which we are viewiing or judging.


Justin offers no alternatives I beleive because of one of two reasons. one, he has no real experience or training to draw from two, he simply loves to argue and debate, and if he did have a view point, he might not have much left to discuss.

He is right though about most of his logic though. One or two fights does not necessarily qualify you to be an expert, and it is possible to be a critic without experience, that does not mean that the critic is correct in his assumptions nor is he correct about everyone. He simply has an audience of people thatt value his opinions, and find that his "shot group" is correct more often than not.

With martial arts, we simply do not have the same mechanism of feedback as a movie critic has. That is, lots of movies to criticize and lots of people to particpate in the process to provide him the feedback.

Most fights and violent situations, happen spontaneously, most of them are illegal and the participants unwilling to participate, it is therefore difficult to analyze them and determine what works.

Martial training can only approximate and simulate real fights or violent situtations, they cannot replicate them and all the variables.

Therefore, we turn to using models such as the UFC to draw from.

The evolution of the UFC and Pride and such events has definitely seen it evolve from raw fighting to a more sophisticated art and sport of fighting. I cringe and close my eyes when I see the early UFCs, lots of barbaric force and violence that I frankly consider unecessary and dangerous to the fighters.

You don't see that today for several reasons. 1. the rules have eliminated some dangerous things. 2. there is greater parity and skill between the fighters...you don't see Fred Ettish crawling in the ring with Tito Ortiz these days.

UFC offers us some good lessons to learn from and as the skill levels of the participants grow and widen, we can see some very interesting patterns develop that are of benefit to us as martial artist.

IMO it is a very sophmoric view to say the UFC doesn't approximate reality as there are many aspects that do.

Same with aikido, very sophmoric to say that aikido doesn't approximate reality, or converse that it approximates it better than UFC.

There are aspects in both genres that are of benefit for us to study. The trick is to figure out which elements are worthwile for us to study...making us more effective as people.
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Old 02-17-2007, 08:45 AM   #139
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
The trick is to figure out which elements are worthwile for us to study...making us more effective as people.
therein lies the rub.
what or who is a more effective person?
in what respects are they more effective?
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:35 AM   #140
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Re: This aint UFC!

Exactly Ricky. know thyself, unto thyself be true.

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Old 02-18-2007, 05:47 AM   #141
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Re: This aint UFC!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Can you explain? ...

Efficiency dictates that you preserve energy or resolve conflict with as little input as possible.

The more energy, effort, motion you put into something, the more chance that something goes wrrong, or you make a mistake. Why would you do this?
Well, I disagree with both of these statements, but in a nice way.

Sorry I'm late and the discussion has moved along nicely.
Many posts here about what is efficient and what part of an encounter needs to be efficient. My opinion is still that most matial arts teach inefficient methods as their core curriculum, including aikido.
Aikido can be efficient, so can boxing, so can RBSD etc. I just think that Aikido students are guided away from efficiency too often.

As an example: Drunken thug swings with beer bottle at Man. (maybe untypical, just an example). Swing looks like yokomenuchi.
1.Boxer ducks, clock him on the jaw, lights out. Efficiency score = 9, yeah!
2.Aikidoka takes strike down and round, shihonage, drunk on ground in a kind of pin. Fight not over, possible complications. Efficiency 5?
3.Boxer ducks or clinches, lots of punches, drunk staggers about a bit. Nobody hurt much, fight might continue. Efficiency 5?
4.Aikidoka strikes the throat from inside the swing, some technique drives the drunk's head into the ground. Lights out, maybe dead. Efficiency 9. Yeay! Bit cruel, hope it's not on CCTV!
5.Victim dodges/steps away, pulls a weapon."Go home you cad!".
Drunk flees. Efficiency 10. Not even a martial art, go figure.

OK, so the scores may vary but I don't see many Aikido dojos actually training for number 4. Not really training for that level of chosen nastiness most of the time. It IS aikido, but so is the rest.
I imagine (yeah of course I don't know, I imagine) Ueshiba doing a variation of number 4, I cannot imagine him doing number 2 based on reported results of challenges made upon him.
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:21 AM   #142
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Re: This aint UFC!

The throat punch is the universial sign that you've had too much to drink and you're annoying someone

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:04 AM   #143
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Re: This aint UFC!

Actually when working with my instructors, in particular Saotome sensei, he emphasizes martial intent throughout the range of the technique. With the yokomen type punch, haymaker, you step in and do the same thing the boxer does, take center and acheive martial awareness with...say...a punch, or atemi of your own. that intially off balances or lands, which ever....then you can move on to the next thing.

At least in my dojo, we never moved on to the shionage until you established irimi and dominance with martial intent of taking the center line.

I have never gotten shionage in a non-compliant situation. Hovwever, the lessons learned from studying it, and the range of options has been most helpful.

Even with the clinch.

I think with Ueshiba on #2. Having the option and being able to do it, is important. having the control and skill to not have to and have other choices is quite another level.

I think first we must be able to do #2. Can most aikidoka do this in a non-compliant situation? I don't know.

I think though what is important is that we in aikido study the full range of dynamic movements.

I don't think they are guided away from efficiency...it is built into the range of movement, however, how many train from a position of aliveness or with an awareness of the points of failure, and maintaining martial intent throughout the spectrum of movement?

I don't know....but I did not find this to be problematic my dojo. Maybe with certain students in the dojo, but not with the instructors that teach.

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Old 02-18-2007, 11:32 AM   #144
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Re: This aint UFC!

Regarding "efficiency", it might be worth thinking strategically as well as tactically. If you rate a quick, fight-ending move as 9, but receive follow-up grief from the attacker, their buddies, the police, bouncers, your own conscience, etc., you might well end up being far less efficient in the long run than the person who establishes dominance without damage, then proceeds to a more involved/gentle technique that allows for de-escalation.
Of course, this is only an option if circumstances and relative skill levels allow it, but the basic idea seems to me as essential to Aikido as the techniques. No guarantee that the attacker will calm down, or that their buddies won't jump in anyway, but you now have the possibility, at least, of a long-term peaceful outcome.
And no, people are not effective. Nor are martial arts. People who express themselves effectively with martial arts are effective. Substitute "music", "guns", or "English composition" for "martial arts" to see the proof of this. Every art, it seems, must be a more or less natural expression of human potential. But only through rigorous, consistent training can we hope to reach that potential.

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:40 AM   #145
DH
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Re: This aint UFC!

I didn't read this whole thing, so if its been said...sorry.

Every one of your founding greats, whom you look up to, tell stories about, and venerate were.....MMA'ers
Further still if you read these various "founders" words. There is a common theme.
"This or that art was weak here."
"That art weak, there."
"So I......"

And in their day they were frequently looked at as brash, arrogant even at times foolish, etc etc.
Now generations follow the shadow of their visions.

I bet on grappling and P/K as a combo 35 years ago. From then, till now I've seen nothing in Martial Arts or artists to change my mind. As a method- MMA works. It always has. Most intelligent men don't argue with success. But fools rush in where.....
I'd even bet were your own founders alive today-they would be looking back at you as they themselves stepped outside the remainders of their own arts -you- now practice.... to join MMA'ers.
You, just may be who they were talking about when they said
"l looked at the weakness in this art or that,"
"So I......" ;-)

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-20-2007 at 09:48 AM.
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