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Old 01-23-2003, 07:50 PM   #1
Kevin Wilbanks
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What's in a yonkyo?

What makes yonkyo yonkyo?

I originally learned the technique in such a way that the nerve pinch was only a seldom-used option. The technique was largely a mechanical shoulder control in which nage grabbs the forearm like a baseball bat or sword and casts it out as if fishing, then follows through with a screw/twist to drive the shoulder into the ground.

The people I'm training with now have never seen it this way, and try to ply the technique with a more distal, less mechanically secure grip, and use the nerve pinch as motivation for uke to move. I'm even getting the comment "That's not yonkyo." about my version as though the nerve pinch is what makes it yonkyo.

I have never worked with a high ranking sensei or shihan that relied on the nerve instead of the leverage, so I may be missing something, but the mechanical way seems much more reliable and effective. I have felt yonkyo from people who could hit the nerve well, and it hurt a lot, but so what? It seemed to hurt less than gashing my head on the corner of an open hatchback or overhanging cabinet, and people routinely push through this kind of pain in fights.

It requires a little upper-body strength, but the baseball bat version seems ridiculously effective to me, even on people bigger than I am, and I'm not even very good at it. On the other hand, I've seen lots of people with many years experience still fumbling around to find the nerve in the nerve version.

Is there a 'party line' in various organizations on what makes a yonkyo? Particularly in ASU, USAF, or just Aikikai in general. Does anyone actually think relying on the nerve pinch is better?

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 01-23-2003 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 01-23-2003, 08:23 PM   #2
Col.Clink
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nerve pressure

Hi Kevin,

in my experience, which is quite small at this stage, the only good result I've had with yonkyo is with the nerve pinch.

I have always been taught to use the nerve, mainly to get uke to lift up and change their body position without really any effort on my part, and then follow through with the rest of the technique. I have not been shown any other way (as yet), and the times when I have not hit the nerve on the thick wristed fellas, they have not moved.

I have trained with one person where he did not feel the pinch at all (one of the rubbery folk), even the Instructors had a rough time moving him, but I found he was very suseptible to Ikkyo and that was the only way I could get him to move. It was quite hilarious watching the instructors face when I moved him during kata-tori-yonkyo, although I had applied an ikkyo.

Even I myself have not been moved without the pinch, but perhaps that is just the way we have been trained, or I have not yet got to the non-nerve pinch yonkyo.

So for me, yonkyo requires pain, very briefly, but just enough to lift the uke and have his balance. I have trained only once in yonkyo to excess during a seminar, not nice!!

Now, once we have found the nerve once, that's it, no more until the next class.

I am enjoying reading the yonkyo threads, very interesting.

Different strokes for different folks??

or different methods of training??

Cheers

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:33 PM   #3
Mel Barker
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Kevin, I'm with you. I don't do it much any more, but I used to just endure the pain as training. I might not be able to use that hand the next day if someone could generate allot of pain, but I would just stand there and smile at them.

I never go for pain. Your description of the mechanics is very good. Much better than I could have managed. My addition - nage should squat to raise his arms rather than use muscular strength. Using the legs to raise uke's katana (arm) is most effective and powerful.

Our sensei goes for the pain, it's our second in charge theortician that teaches doing proper mechanics. The former was trained USAF - Midwest, the latter came from ASU. Hope that helps.

Mel Barker
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Old 01-23-2003, 10:37 PM   #4
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
My addition - nage should squat to raise his arms rather than use muscular strength. Using the legs to raise uke's katana (arm) is most effective and powerful.
That's a whole other can of worms. I would never advocate doing any technique with just arm/shoulder girdle strength, but to do this or any technique where your arms are not as limp as wet noodles requires the use of muscular strength.

I think you are framing it in terms of a false dichotomy. It's not use center/legs OR use upper body muscular strength, but use upper body muscular strength properly coordinated with center/leg movement OR use upper body muscular strength improperly/uncoordinated with center/leg movement.

If you were to analyze the movement in excruciating detail with high speed video, EMG sensors, etc... you'd see that what you're talking about is more about using the upper body/torso muscles isometrically to transmit dynamic force/movement generated by the lower body as opposed to using them to generate the dynamics independent of the lower body.

...might seem like tedious nit-picking, but I think broadly inaccurate hyperbole like this and oft-repeated 'relax' mantra can be really confusing to the relentlessly skeptical and literal-minded. I know it was for me.
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Old 01-24-2003, 02:52 AM   #5
Creature_of_the_id
 
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I was told once that yonkyo came from a sword cut. If we look at the placement of our hands on our uke's wrist, then it is the same or should be similar.

More often than not we use the nerve technique, but we do sometimes practice it without.

I find the version that we do without the nerve alot more 'worrying'. it seems to be that we hold the wrist upright as if holding a sword and then step back with the font leg.

this brings uke back and twists the two bones in his arm against each other. as you step forward and cut you can use this twist to extra effect in controling the elbow and shoulder of your uke.

I think its easier to get to if you do an uchi movement on your partner and treat it kinda like sankyo, but instead on the wrist, twisting the bones against each other (not nice on myself, as I have very thin wrists and bones).

we do an alternative submission also when using this 'variation'.

the pin ends with us sitting on our uke's back with the arm entwined around one of our knees.

its very difficult to explain and describe, its a bit like ude garami, but using your legs. and its very painful, especially when you get a heavy nage and you cant breath.

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Old 01-24-2003, 02:55 AM   #6
Bud
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IMHO, you need both the leverage and some of the pain for yonkyo. Relying on pain alone can be tricky since it may or may not work. It's good that you learned the leverage "version" first. Learning to coordinate your legs, hips, arms and upper body when applying the leverage is essential.

I've studied under senseis that taught both and I found that by doing the leverage movement with some pain to act as a distraction / extra motivation for uke, you get consistent results.
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Old 01-24-2003, 10:03 AM   #7
ian
 
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I don't think pain works too well in real situations as people ofetn have very high levels of adrenaline or are willing to put up with the pain if it means they can maintain their hold on a weapon. I'm not sure if the meridian it works on is important in a multiple pressure point attack (for a knockout for example).

I think soto yonkyo is a very good form since it really does get that sword cutting and body motion behind it. Raised elbows often weaken an opponent, and yonkyo is a good illustration of this.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-24-2003, 06:30 PM   #8
Alfonso
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In my dojo (ASU)the emphasis is on leverage rather than Pain.

There appears to be a version of the pressure point hold where the hand of the arm being held goes numb and can't grip anymore.

that's the only concession my teacher makes to whether it's worth using the "nerve pinch"

on the other hand, sempai Kevin (hi kev) has gotten pretty good at finding the ouchy spot on my forearm, and I won't deny it'll make me move quick

the sword cut version is in my opinion pretty effective at taking balance and leading to a controlled pin (with a knee on uke's shoulder on top of everything else)

so pain is considered "icing on the cake" at our digs

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-24-2003, 08:06 PM   #9
Abasan
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why does it have to be one or the other? I think yonkyo is both...

The nerve pinching isn't an end to itself as many of you have agreed, since there will be those minority who would not be affected by the pressure point. But for most of us, it helps to put our mind there in our hands and therefore losing our center thus making it easier for nage to take our balance.

The leverage in yonkyo, as in all our techniques must also exist. you can't force someone with just the nerve point to move where you want them to move. The worst it'll do is for them to rip their hands out, and then where will you be?

Besides, getting the nerve is not through pressing it with force, but more to do with extension of the arms outwards. This I presume happens naturally when you go for the leverage.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-24-2003, 08:35 PM   #10
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
ahmad abas (Abasan) wrote:
Besides, getting the nerve is not through pressing it with force, but more to do with extension of the arms outwards. This I presume happens naturally when you go for the leverage.
This presumption seems to have no correlation with my experience. The variations of grip with which one can effect the technique by leverage without coming anywhere near pressing on the nerve point are nearly infinite. This is part of my point, and why most nerve-oriented practice sessions seem to consist of everyone standing around puzzling over the proper grip instead of actually practicing the technique.

One can quickly grab the forearm pretty much any old way, with either hand over the other, and grind someone's shoulder into the ground mercilessly by means of sound movement mechanics and some strength. On the other hand, finding the nerve point requires a very narrow range of quite particular grips, and it seems extremely tricky to land such a grip in one swoop, on the fly. I don't think I've ever met anyone who could effect the nerve grip as quickly and reliably as I, a relative neophyte, can simply grab a forearm with both hands.

In general, this serves as a good illustration of why I have little interest in practicing with pressure points. By the time one becomes even close to proficient at making such a tenuous connection on the fly, one could have spent countless hours honing a much more reliable skill.
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Old 01-24-2003, 11:59 PM   #11
Col.Clink
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
This presumption seems to have no correlation with my experience. The variations of grip with which one can effect the technique by leverage without coming anywhere near pressing on the nerve point are nearly infinite. This is part of my point, and why most nerve-oriented practice sessions seem to consist of everyone standing around puzzling over the proper grip instead of actually practicing the technique.
Hi Kevin,

I remember puzzling over many things in aikido, and still do. IMHO, the nerve pressure is the BEGINNING of the technique.
Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
One can quickly grab the forearm pretty much any old way, with either hand over the other, and grind someone's shoulder into the ground mercilessly by means of sound movement mechanics and some strength. On the other hand, finding the nerve point requires a very narrow range of quite particular grips, and it seems extremely tricky to land such a grip in one swoop, on the fly. I don't think I've ever met anyone who could effect the nerve grip as quickly and reliably as I, a relative neophyte, can simply grab a forearm with both hands.
Remembering that both hands are on the uke anyway with the nerve pressure, you could still follow through with the "sound movement mechanics and some strength", if you miss the nerve perhaps.
Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
In general, this serves as a good illustration of why I have little interest in practicing with pressure points. By the time one becomes even close to proficient at making such a tenuous connection on the fly, one could have spent countless hours honing a much more reliable skill.
Personally, I think it takes great skill to be able to hit the nerve time after time, and on the fly. Their are many aikido techniques that do and do not work for various reasons and I would be glad to spend countless hours on them, if only I could find someone to pay my mortgage!!

I tend to agree with Abasan. As I said earlier, the pressure/pain is used to distract and change the body position(flinch?) of uke with minimal strength, then the rest of the technique is applied, weather it is using the sword cut/cast down, or changing it to an ikkyo or nikkyo or whatever works for you.

Mind you, this is just my interpretation, and like aikido, it'll change over time.

Respectfully,

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 01-26-2003, 08:22 PM   #12
Abasan
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I understand your point of view Kevin, because it is hard to get the nerve all the time. Especially when its that burly new guy with hairy forearms who's about twice as large as you lumbering towards you mammothlike.

Before attending this one singapore camp, I used to apply yonkyo just like I was taught in my first dojo. Religiously find the nerve and cut down like the sword. It works in my dojo at least (1st and 2nd).

Then in singapore i was shown that you didn't have to pursue the nerve directly. Holding the forearm right and extending into the cut works better then my traditional, inside of knuckle and forefinger straight style. And it helps that now you are thinking of taking uke's center rather then having your mind focused on that one nerve spot. Don't get me wrong, my traditional style hurts a lot, but it involves too much forcing as this singaporean sensei said after applying it on him. Then he grabbed me and effortlessly splatted me on the floor. So i have no reason to doubt him since.

But what you've said in previous posts has been interesting to me, cause I like to dabble in pressure point training. Only there are no commercial instructors here in my place, so i get my kicks from the books. Which is not enough, (try learning aikido from books say). Maybe, just maybe you should ask a real PP fighter to test his skills against yours. Perhaps then, it might give you hints as to whether the stuff works or not.

As for me, I think yonkyo isn't entirely about nerves, nor is it entirely about body mechanics. Like all aikido techniques, it encompasses a lot more and that's why the simple looking ikkyo is called a 10 year technique.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-26-2003, 09:23 PM   #13
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
ahmad abas (Abasan) wrote:
Maybe, just maybe you should ask a real PP fighter to test his skills against yours. Perhaps then, it might give you hints as to whether the stuff works or not.
Whatever, dude. If wandering around looking for 'real' fighters of various types to test my skills against was my bag, I suspect Aikido would only be a small part of my training regimen, and pressure points even smaller.
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Old 01-28-2003, 06:15 AM   #14
ocbolton
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I've always thought that it was both. i found that practising yonkyo concentrating on the form(mechanics)without fumbling for the nerve spot was good and then sooner or later i will execute a yonkyo using form only and hit the nerves- the more i practice the more often the two will come together- keiko, keiko, keiko and just a bit more keiko.
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Old 02-03-2003, 01:09 PM   #15
Doug Mathieu
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Hi Kevin

In Western Canada I have been taught to focus on the mechaical leverage and work on the form rather than getting the nerve point.

Similarily for Sankyo and Nikyo we have been told to focus on the affect on ukes body and center rather than the pain factor.

Of course each of these can produce pain.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:23 PM   #16
Largo
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OP- I have been taught that a properly done yonkyo doesn't have to hurt. If it is done properly, the form of the technique will bring someone down even if they don't feel the nerve pinch. ( not that I can do it though
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:38 AM   #17
Jonathan Lewis
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Pain can be apowerful motivator but it is unreliable. If it is not reliable in the dojo, it will be much, much less reliable outside the dojo. In the dojo, you are dealing with people who are familiar with the specific pain being applied, and which direction to go in order to relive that pain. This is knowlege that we don't even realize we have and so assume that everyone will understand it automaticaly. They won't.

When teaching arrest and control (something I no longer do) we found that verbal instructions to the arrestee were necessary while applying any pain-conmpliance technique. Otherwise, unless they had experience in reciving that particular technique before, they tended to struggle even harder against the pain in an effort to make it stop. Furthermore, if, once cooperation had been established, the arresting officer did not reduce the pain level, the arrestee would renew his struggles since cooperation did not provide the immediate result desired from his point of view.
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:39 AM   #18
Alan Drysdale
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Like Ahman, I would say that yonkyo uses both mechanical and pain compliance, but another vital ingredient is balance. If you don't get uke's balance, most likely an uke your own size or bigger will resist the mechanical forces and ignore the pain. Another is sente - if you don't give uke time to brace himself and resist, yonkyo will work a lot better.

Alan
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Old 02-06-2003, 03:31 PM   #19
Jem8472
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Painful
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:34 AM   #20
aikidoc
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I recently bought Doshu's new tape-the last one which shows oyo waza and some kihon waza. He demonstrates yonkyo on the tape.

He seems to use the mechanical leverage with the application of pressure points in two ways: one on the forearm bone along the radius near where the course of the radial nerve runs and two with his supporting hand he presses his thumb into the wrist.

Personally, I like to use both the mechanical and the pressure point only I add a complex torque to the wrist to accentuate access to the nerve either via a sankyo or mawashi wrist bend. This seems to expose the nerve or bone-whatever hurts by moving some of the tendons out of the way.
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:33 PM   #21
Mike Galante
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Re: What's in a yonkyo?

Hi Kevin,
The way I was taught yonkyo was to press the base of the forefinger into the sensitive area.
In other words, the forefinger and several others, are arched back while the pad on the palm just below the finger itself is pressed into the nerve, while the sword extension type forward motion is executed. I agree with the others that it as with all aikido holds will only work with all the balance, leading ki, etc, no forcing bringing you into the hold. Once uke has his balance again, well we know about that.
Mike
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:55 AM   #22
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: What's in a yonkyo?

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I recently bought Doshu's new tape-the last one which shows oyo waza and some kihon waza. He demonstrates yonkyo on the tape.

He seems to use the mechanical leverage with the application of pressure points in two ways: one on the forearm bone along the radius near where the course of the radial nerve runs and two with his supporting hand he presses his thumb into the wrist.

Personally, I like to use both the mechanical and the pressure point only I add a complex torque to the wrist to accentuate access to the nerve either via a sankyo or mawashi wrist bend. This seems to expose the nerve or bone-whatever hurts by moving some of the tendons out of the way.


Kevin,

I sort of do it John's way. I originally learned it by applying pressure to the radius bone, and it was very effective. But on day, I was doing Yonkyo to someone whose arms were extremely thick, and this person was extremely strong. Now mind you, I'm pretty strong myself, but Aikido is not about how strong you are. Anyway, my instructor came over and he knew exactly what I was trying to do. He showed me how to gain control and cut the person down by using the "sword cutting version" first. I was able to do it everytime, no matter how much he resisted. I was told to do it that way first, in order to gain control, and once I was ready to apply the pin, to apply it the way I was first taught.

In addition, I might add, you really need to do a lot of Bokken cuts and "ringing" the Bokken handle at the end of your cut. This will give power to the point on your hand that actually applies pressure to the radius bones. People who don't practice weapons generally do not have proper grip for this technique.

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Old 12-31-2006, 02:50 AM   #23
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: What's in a yonkyo?

Thanks for the input Nafis, but the Kevin you are addressing is an historical figure. This thread is four years old. Mr Galante didn't like the fact that I took him to task on another thread and he is engaging in a strange form of thread-stalking. I say strange because this is the first time I've seen it done without insults. Nonetheless, I find the fact that he is dredging up threads I started years ago more than a little odd. It appears to be some sort of passive-agressive form of personal attack, as I can't imagine many people would want someone sifting through the archives and pulling up a bunch of their old threads as if they were still live discussions.
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Old 12-31-2006, 11:09 AM   #24
Lan Powers
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Re: What's in a yonkyo?

Still an interesting topic for discussion though......(but yeah, kind of weird)
Our Shihan (Kato Sensei) does not aim at placing his pressure on the nerve point, but as you are planted the pressure focuses to that place.
Sword cutting is very prominent in his motion, but the pressure appears when he has you in the pin.
Combination I think, with intent, makes the best effect.
(subject to change, or correction)
Lan

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Old 12-31-2006, 01:52 PM   #25
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: What's in a yonkyo?

I guess my view hasn't changed much in the intervening time. Getting the nerve when they are still nearly upright and you haven't cut them down yet just isn't going to happen more than one time in thousands if you are training at speed and with a live uke. If you want to find it once you've got their face on the ground, I suppose it's plausible enough, but at that point, you can also stomp on their head, jump on their back, crank away and destroy their shoulder and/or elbow, etc... Like most formal Aikido pins, it seems elegant and clever, but difficult to fully apply unless the person is stunned and labile, and probably not the end of the situation if the person really wants to get up.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-31-2006 at 01:54 PM.
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