Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-14-2007, 03:27 AM   #76
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Boon,

You find the best vids. Dr. Loi's waza is just sooo crisp in both the kata and randori parts of the Shodothug clips. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I could just imagine what would happen if that Uke went all out with those tanto strikes.

Gambatte.
LC
Thanks Larry for your praise. I accept graciously. You know.... finding aikido video with alive RAN-DORI is like finding a needle in a haysack. If you do find one, one should keep it for posterity and future reference.

Err.. one more thing, is Dr Loi is a woman right. That makes her a Shodothugress?

OSSU!
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 06:33 AM   #77
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Lynn, you are whipping out these one-liners like a Chinese fortune cookie factory.
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a gudeline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 10:43 AM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Lynn I like your one liners. I always see the wisdom in them.

Interesting point to about a secondary weapon. That is how I practice with knifes..as a secondary weapon.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 04:19 PM   #79
garry cantrell
Location: texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

OK, time for my two cents. Great discussion about proper training and dealing with trained knife fighters and types of attacks and the like - but here's another perspective. My one and only (thank goodness) experience with a knife attack was with a guy who, as far as I could tell, had no training and gave no indication that he wanted to hurt me (or even that he found me mildly irritating) prior to trying to shove a butcher knife through my stomach. Geez, that was years ago. I lost a quarter sized hunk of skin off the end of my elbow. It was very fast, from very close range, and very unexpected. My response was clearly Aikido based (and expletive enhanced, if I remember correctly) but wouldn't have been confused with traditional tanto take away techniques. There's a point here somewhere. Maybe it's just that it's rare to be able to accurately predict real life applications. You train hard, as best you can, and enjoy the training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 04:34 PM   #80
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Yes I agree with your assessment on training Garry. thanks for sharing that story!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 05:17 PM   #81
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.
I would agree totally on that one Lynn!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 09:18 PM   #82
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Never mind, found out where they went....
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 06:55 AM   #83
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I would agree totally on that one Lynn!
Okay, that's one. ;-)

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 07:51 AM   #84
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a guideline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.
Frankly, from a practical standpoint, the one place where the knife makes sense is as part of your weapons retention system. If you carry a firearm, you should have a tactical folder available that you carry on the opposite side from the gun. If you get in a grappling situation on the ground you try to get the gun underneath you so the assailant can't get at it. It's the off hand which accesses the knife. If you get jumped from behind, this is one of the few things that will work fast enough to save you from a choke. It allows you to still use your strong side hand to protect the firearm while the off side hand accesses the knife and goes to work on the choke. I trained a bit with Eric Remmen, a Hwang Rwang Do fellow, he actually carried three folders, one on each side low and one high in the neck of his vest. There was no grappling hold you could put him in where he could not access one of the three knifes. That's where a knife really makes sense, I think.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 08:56 AM   #85
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.
.
Filipino cookies! Uraro (arrowroot) cookies immediately come to mind

Dangayan Singkaw incorporates an art called asut kampilan, the technique of drawing and cutting with the Filipino short sword.
It is similar to iaido / iaijutsu.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 05:22 PM   #86
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 08:08 PM   #87
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Cody Bruce wrote: View Post
I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE
I am not trying to be disrespectful of your efforts here but:
a) the attacker moves as if he is scared of you; if I'd had that knife I would have come at you like a cuisinart

b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons

d) anyone who knows what he is doing will strike with the off hand, you aren't paying any attention to that opening and your partner isn't using it

If a guy has a knife and you cannot escape, then you go in without any hesitation, cover anything that would kill you if he hit it, and get in and tie him up, then proceed to render him unconscious. If he stabs you or cuts you, he only gets one. Dancing around as your are doing will result in getting so many cuts he can render you totally ineffective in short order.

Knife stuff is all about "irimi" in the end. You need to have your mind "inside" his attack and then put your body there. He only gets one shot to finish you.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 08:22 PM   #88
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 10:36 PM   #89
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

George, I was moved to post similar points for this fellow and had to go to the dojo. If someone that was intent to cut and even half-way good with a knife was involved in that action it wouldn't have lasted long.

Please find someone that can help you learn good stuff or while you're getting some exercise you'll get into habits that may have you buying some rural real estate.

Sincerely,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 11:32 PM   #90
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I have to agree with Chuck and George above.

The only thing I can add is that by stepping back in the case of a knife attack and not committing to a solid offline entry (irimi) that can control the weapon hand/side and minimize its effectiveness you are inviting a follow-up or combination of stabs/slashes that will render you useless to defend yourself in short order.

I'd like to reiterate these points George made, they are ery important:
Quote:
b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons
Finally at the times where you did grip the knife arm and failed to immediately follow up with a strike or technique you could have also gotten your wrist and inner arm cut repeatedly if the knife holder utilised turning motions of his hand or body while dragging the blade across your wrist/inner arm to break your grip.

Just my 2 cents. Resistance Tantodori isn't easy under any circumstance imho but one can develop "best practices" that minimize the dangers.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 11:54 PM   #91
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I'm going to start practicing in this fashion. This session was simply to really see what it was like. I've learned quite a bit on here and will apply it as soon as possible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 01:50 AM   #92
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Cody Bruce wrote: View Post
Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.
Sort of... Certainly, if you are in avoidance mode and thinking defensively, the guy with the knife has such a distinct advantage that you'd only get out of it by an act of God.

Doing this kind of thing you have to have your mind right. You have to mentally "own" the space he wants to come into to attack you. This is an energetic thing and takes some practice.

You need to put your attention, your mind "inside" his attack. You are aware of the knife but your mental projection is straight to the guys center. Your mind is forward, your body is forward oriented, everything in your being is committed to going in.

Then, play with not letting him determine when he attacks. If you move into his space, he has two choices, either attack or back up. If he has strong intention to attack he will, the moment you start to close with him. If you are the one who decides when that moment is, rather than letting him do it, then there is really no reaction time. If you know when something is going to happen, then you don't react to it, you are causing it, and therefore there is no "reaction" time.

If, however, he backs up, that tells you something about his commitment. Keep going forward and then suddenly accelerate. You have the advantage because you have already caused his mind to retreat. He can still kill you of course because the knife is so inherently dangerous, but if you can back him up, his advantage is a fraction of what it was if you let him attack you and you try to "defend".

Just remember, the guy who is defending isn't winning. The only way to win is to attack. The Japanese phrase for this is "offense and Defense are one".

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 05:58 AM   #93
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Here's a short video of a knife flow drill:

http://www.albokalisilat.com/video4.html

An important part is the very last section where the drill is done in real time. The vid hasn't been sped up. A good knife fighter can cut you 6 times in one second, but it only takes one to kill you.

And, yes, this is where I'm training kali/silat.
http://www.albokalisilat.com

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 07:01 AM   #94
Mark Jakabcsin
Dojo: Charlotte Systema, Charlotte, NC
Location: Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 207
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Cody,
Lots of good advice so far. Another piece to training knife defense is to learn knife offense. Become comfortable with the knife. How to carry it, hide it, draw it, change hands with it, and use it fluidly. By learning how to use the knife you will learn the dangers and difficulty in defending against one. You will learn the openings that need to be addressed and hopefully a little bit of the mindset of the knifer. All of this is important when learning to defend. Plus, by learning the offense, you and your training partners will provide each other with harder and more realistic attacks to practice against.

Take care,

Mark J.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 03:57 PM   #95
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I'm really learning a lot. After watching the clip slowly you can pick up little things about the timing, body language and techniques that are really useful. If the community as a whole doesn't mind I will post another video later and see if there is an improvement and gain some more insight. Thanks for everything!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 06:23 PM   #96
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Cody,
Here's my knife taking advice.

1. Don't, turn and run
2. If you can't avoid the fight. Have your buddy rush the knifer as fast as he can. while they are wrestling kick the knifer in the face.
3. If you don't have a buddy see 1.

You're doing a great job though. This kind of practice will make you better then most "shihan" before you know it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2007, 06:36 PM   #97
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I appreciate the encouragement! I also certainly agree with you...I don't want to tangle with anyone that has a knife (or anyone period for that matter).
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 01:13 AM   #98
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

The attacker in Cory's video was obviously unskilled with a knife, and a bit worried about what was going to happen after he attacked, which probably hampered his creativity and tenaciousness. The young man said this was the first time he tried this, and still he put himself out there for everyone to see.

I would love to see Ledyard, or anyone else for that matter, post a video where he is engaged in uncooperative empty-hand v. tanto. A picture is worth a thousand words.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 03:51 PM   #99
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Not gonna touch that huh...

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2007, 06:44 PM   #100
divinecedar
 
divinecedar's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I'm just trying to expand my abilities. I also feel that Aikido with resistance allows a person to determine the effectiveness of specific techniques in a situation and improves your timing. I've done it against a 6'7, 320 lb. untrained opponent and despite the lack of skill he was still hard to do anything with. I am far from highly skilled, but practice makes perfect and I'm glad to recieve input from other Aikidoka.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
kata dori vs. katate dori emi_moes Language 25 02-25-2005 10:12 AM
Tanto Shiai Demonstration L. Camejo General 32 12-02-2004 08:02 PM
One class in the life of...(Photographed Edition) Veers General 14 07-16-2003 10:25 AM
Home Made Tanto Design Suggetions Amendes Weapons 8 03-07-2003 01:33 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:11 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate