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Old 02-06-2007, 03:31 PM   #51
Rod Yabut
 
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Another tanto dori vid

This vid has been posted here before. I would like to highlight that this vid is what I am familiar with on how to deal with tanto. Compare and contrast with the approach taken by ChrisH and MichaelV.

Maybe it is just different flavouring? But I still prefer the method in this video. There will never be a right or wrong answer.
If I could ad a penny to Larry's comments above, check out some Systema type knife take aways. Just like someone on this post mentioned, I've messed around with it too, starting very slowly and then going progressively faster. Even when you know the attack, its still gets intense at full speed since elements of random body movement comes into play.

Rod
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Old 02-06-2007, 04:05 PM   #52
Jonathan
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Hey, Chris and Mike.

Just to be clear: I get "cut" regularly in practicing freestyle defense against a knife attack. Part of the way I learn what does and doesn't work. I'm under no illusions about getting away totally unscathed in an all-out knife attack. But I've done enough defense work against a knife now to see that "going with the flow" really is an extremely effective (albeit initially difficult) way to defend myself. My knife defense training always involves alot of atemi, too.

Mike, if you want to see some great knife defense work check out Systema vid clips. Much of what I do in knife defense training incorporates Systema movement, tactics and striking methods.

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Old 02-12-2007, 07:40 PM   #53
Brion Toss
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Have any of you seen the Dog Brothers' recent video covering attacks with knife and pistol? Much there that is adaptable to/reminiscent of Aikido. I have spoken with two police officer Aikidoka over the years who have survived knife attacks, and they mentioned other officers and prison guards, so perhaps Mr. Harden hasn't seen everything ...
Shouldn't this thread be in the 'Weapons' forum?
Regards,
Brion Toss
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:16 AM   #54
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Everything "should" be in the weapons forum.

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Old 02-13-2007, 06:38 AM   #55
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
Have any of you seen the Dog Brothers' recent video covering attacks with knife and pistol?
Big fan of the Dog Brothers. Highly recomend a sneak and peek.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:36 AM   #56
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
In this case it is where the FMA folks and their like, though extremely effective in using a knife as a weapon, tend to approach training to use the knife from a situation of blade on blade, duel type combat. This causes them to believe (and rightly so with a skilled FMA person involved) that certain things simply "will not be done/allowed by a skilled knife fighter", e.g. allowing one to easily get hold of the knife or knife hand. They are of course correct, in an FMA sense...
I have no experience of FMA, or indeed of knife use in general apart from in my kitchen and in tanto-dori. However, I do play Go a bit, and the "will not / cannot be done" situation arises quite alot there. When people with a bit of experience are playing, there will quite often be groups of stones that both players will agree are "alive" or "dead" without having to play out the full sequence of moves that would make them so. Equally, there can be territory that, to an observer, might appear open and "up for grabs" but an experienced player will know that the other player has full control of it and there are no openings. Of course, to a large extent, whether stones are alive or dead, or whether territory can be successfully invaded may depend on the difference in skill between the players. If you think that you're more skillful than the other player, you can play it out and, since its only a board game, the consequences aren't too horrendous.

Anyway, my point was that in so far as there are certain starting assumptions that people of similar skill might make about whether particular tactics will work, there are parallels with MA training.

Back to the scheduled discussion...

Best,

Ed

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Old 02-13-2007, 10:58 AM   #57
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Good example and interesting perspective Ed. I have never thought about things quite this way. I will be using this as an example for now one! Thanks for the wisdom!
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:24 AM   #58
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Ed Stansfield wrote: View Post
Anyway, my point was that in so far as there are certain starting assumptions that people of similar skill might make about whether particular tactics will work, there are parallels with MA training.
Ed is correct. This is seen a lot in Kendo matches between high ranks where there is hardly any attacking but the majority of the match is taken up with minute adjustments in ma ai and an attempt to get a minuscule tactical advantage on the other player to launch a decisive stroke and win. To the untrained eye one would wonder why no one is attacking, but in the minds of both players the attacks are executed and defended without the need to "play it out" as Ed says.

However there are also the skilled and deceptive few who are able to use these assumptions against the skilled attacker and feign "lack of skill" and do something to invite an attack that places the other in the perfect place for a winning/killing stroke depending on the situation. The difference here with the Go example is that the rules of Go or chess for example are set and one can only move in certain ways, this law does not apply to the strategic or tactical creativity that can be expressed in arts like Aikido etc. meaning that it will be difficult for one to see all possible outcomes of a particular action. The way we do tanto randori this concept is often used to get an edge on the tanto wielder. However this has nothing to do with the exercise in the video which is not tanto randori, but more like tanto retention practice.

Of course the assumptions made by a "trained" individual may not be made by the totally untrained but nevertheless skilled aggressor. We see this often when street fights occur between martial artists and folks with no "official" training but know how to use focused aggression just from fighting a lot.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

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Old 03-10-2007, 07:09 PM   #59
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

As far as the knife holder being at a disadvantage in this context(where the other guy has a grip on the wrist already) the guy without the knife has the advantage when it comes to joint locks. It is much easier to apply them when the other guy is holding something in his hand as opposed to when he has a closed clenched fist. The arm is much weaker when holding a knife because you can't contract the muscles the same way.
The guy holding the wrist should be striking and kicking at this distance though, not attempting to to lock/throw. The guy with the the knife should be doing the same and not just with the knife hand.
The term "skilled knife attacker" isn't quite accurate when making reference to feints and non lethal blows, as in a cut or stab that will not kill the defender or stop his ability to do anything else like escape or get enough distance to draw a weapon of his own. At this point the knifer would have given away his advantage of a longer reach and the ability to do more damage with his attacks. In this video the knifer has done just that, he is within range of kicks and strikes.If you want the guy holding the wrist to be able to do throws more often have the wrist holder stand outside of range of a kick( traditional aikido maai for gyaku katate dori) or much closer,like almost body to body/a clinch where striking doesn't work because even if the guy without a weapon lands a shot it will be to weak to have any effect.

Last edited by mikebalko : 03-10-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:36 AM   #60
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I spend like 90 percent of my time in training my soldiers in basic ground grappling and clinch range stuff. Until they get a handle on it, we don't even discuss weapons.

They get comfortable with the basics of grappling and a little cocky actually.

Then we inject weapons and I let them play with them without any instruction on the use to see instinctually what they will do.

It is amazing to watch them commit to using them too soon in some circumstances. Once you arm yourself with a knife or gun in a close fight, that hand is now committed to that weapon. It is no longer free to do anything other than maintain control over that weapons or employ it.

In many circumstances, it isolates that hand and limits many choices that you may have without that weapon. This is especially true with handguns as they are useless until you have established dominance or range. Knifes in a close fight have more flexibility, but still can isolate options in certain situations.

It is amazing to FEEL the KI shift, if you will, from the center of the fight, to the knife wielding hand. In some respects that shift in energy and focus benefits the knife wielder, in some respects it does not as a more skilled guy, gainign control of the knife hand, can move around the center and exploit areas that are not in the focus.

Once dominance is gained by the non-knife holder, the knife holder is COMPLETELY neutralized and must focus all his energy in controlling that weapon....he cannot work on escaping the dominant position as he must focus KI/energy/effort on maintaining immediate control of the knife.

The Key to knives is stealth. Pulling it and using it at the right time and place. Striking quick and fast, and avoiding the clinch takedown. If you are in the clinch or in grappling mode, pulling it fast, using it, and then exploiting the moment that the strike gives you to escape.

Obviously, situationally, many, many factors come into play. The Dog Brothers do a good job of training this stuff., if you want to see the correct way to train, IMO

...however, you can't train like this everyday...at least I can't!

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:57 AM   #61
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The Key to knives is stealth.
IMHO, there are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate.

Agreed, once some one grabs a weapon, they tend to forget about everything else they have at their disposal.

Love the Dogs.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-13-2007, 12:13 AM   #62
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

"There are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate"

This is a pretty bold statement there Lynn.

What happens when I ambush or assassinate one fellow, but don't see his buddy who comes to his aid? Can I only make an attack with a knife when they don't know I'm coming. Would I have to run from his buddy, so I could take him from the shadows.

What about when an angry teenager picks up a kitchen knife to take out his rage on a parent or friend. The second they pick up the knife, do they have to wait in the corner till no one is looking.

Knifes are tools, used like all others; when they are necessary. Granted, the best and safest way for me to use a knife on a person I want to get rid of, is in fact to ambush them, but that's not always an option. Further more it might not be my motive (to kill someone in secret). I might want the attention I get from wielding a knife, like might be seen from a crazy person, or a scared mugger.

If you plan to use a weapon, you need a method of retaining that weapon. Our school believes that Aikido's techniques are designed to do just that; keep your weapon. And this is what you are seeing in this video.

We are not kicking or punching because that's not part of this drill. This is not an all out fight, it's simply an uncooperative randori.

-Christopher
p.s. Lynn, I fought with the dog brothers, and at the meetings of the pack they conduct their knife fighting practices in the open, one on one (usually). They don't hide in the rafters of the building waiting to ambush each other.

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Old 03-13-2007, 01:40 AM   #63
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkbbBSDSls&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3 Fp%3D1384875

Look at this clip, especially at 2'07"to 2'17. I believe they are ShodoThugs [TM], I see a beautiful REAL Uncooperative Tanto Randori. Way to go ShodoThugs! It is avery well executed RAN-DORI sequence IMO.

Just a side track... at the beginning of this clip, the tori, he looks like Jacques Payet to me, anyone can comfirm this?

Boon.

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Old 03-13-2007, 06:32 AM   #64
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Yep, that little section is definitely Shodokan. The little snippet of toshu randori they do after the tanto stuff is very nice too.
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:16 AM   #65
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
"There are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate" This is a pretty bold statement there Lynn.
Chris,
IMHO, it wasn't meant to be a bold statement, just a useful distinction.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:47 AM   #66
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Chris,
IMHO, it wasn't meant to be a bold statement, just a useful distinction.
This is somewhat cultural. If you live in a "knife" culture like the Philippines or Indonesia, guys actually do knife fighting as a form of dueling.

But in our culture an edged weapons attack is almost always spontaneous and takes place either as an ambush or in the heat of an already on-going fight, one or the other accesses a previously hidden weapon. Most (the vast majority) are stabbed before they ever even know it's a knife fight.

The one exception is in domestic violence cases in which someone grabs a knife that is handy, usually in the kitchen. Then the defender usually has some warning that it's an edged weapons situation.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:25 AM   #67
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This is somewhat cultural. If you live in a "knife" culture like the Philippines or Indonesia, guys actually do knife fighting as a form of dueling.
My two biggest influences are the military and FMA.
(Okay, and Detroit before that.)

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:58 AM   #68
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

His posture and movement really look like Payet Sensei...I think that is him, but can't be sure.

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-13-2007, 02:48 PM   #69
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

I tend to side with Lynn for the most part concerning my experiences in dealing with knifes and frankly these are the ones that concern me the most and the most dangerous.

Chris Hein, brings up some very good points though. It is not always the case that someone pulls a knife and intends to use it. It becomes a leverage point or a powerplay to gain space or control, The overall intent, at least at that point is NOT to use it other than to gain control or space.

Motive for these individuals might be a multitude of reasons.

In domestic situations it might be emotional control or space. They may decide to use it if pushed over the edge by an emotional trigger.

A mugger using a knife uses it to create space and control to gain something from you, usually money. at that point and time he does not want to use it, he wants the space and control that it affords to get your money. The trigger that pushes him to use it might be fear of loss of that control, or emotion. It could be irrationality as well steming from whatever, (I am not a psychologist,, sorry).

Either way, this presents a dilemea for you. Do you comply and give him the space and actual or perceived control of the situation and de-escalate the situation if possible. de-escalation may be running, or maybe handing him your wallet, or talking him down.

OR

Do you push forward and escalate the situation hopefully on your terms.

Escalation would occur if you have a percieved advantage of some kind that allows you to perceive you can "take him". It might be you have a gun, taser, pepper spray, knife, or you honestly feel you can take him empty handed for whatever reason.

Situational factors such as his position obviously come into play. That is, what if he closed the distance already and has you unbalanced from behind with the knife held at throat? (this would be an successful ambush).

Philosophically speaking, I'd say that if the guy really has you fixed in a position with a knife where he has successfully closed distance to an effective range of utilization, then that to me, constitutes an successful ambush. (Unless of course, you knowingly LET him come into that range with the weapon, and that would not be an ambush, but a "what were you thinking!" moment)

Note that in all these digits no mention of techniques like kotegaeshi or aikido whatsoever!

So how does aikido prepare you to deal with these situations? I think through the general study of budo of being prepared to face fear maybe with hopefully calmness of mind.

What is the probability that you will escape the situation unharmed. I have no idea how you can account for this with all the variables, from skill with weapon, to positional distance, to emotional/mental state and motive of the indivdual.

However, once the fight has started, doesn't matter what you call it, ambush or not....it is the same situation at that point. He has successfully closed distance, fixed you, and now you must figure out how to deal with that weapon.

SO, training wise....

I think it is good to learn and practice budo for the sake of budo.

I think it is good to practice knifes from the effective fighting range at the point that the individual has close distance and attacked you from a multitude of situations. standing, equal, behind you, and on the ground.

the discouraging point of all this is how bad you will fair in these situations regardless of how much you practice!

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Old 03-13-2007, 03:17 PM   #70
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

If you get the message that is being sent in the techniqual froms, you will almost always be armed. That should help when faceing an armed attacker.

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Old 03-13-2007, 03:30 PM   #71
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Chris, not following you, you are saying you should always be armed?

If so, obviously it helps in the right circumstances, however, it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.

we could "what if" this all day long though!

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Old 03-13-2007, 03:32 PM   #72
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
the discouraging point of all this is how bad you will fair in these situations regardless of how much you practice!
IMHO, one goes to the hospital and one goes to the morgue.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 03-13-2007, 07:55 PM   #73
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Chris, not following you, you are saying you should always be armed?

If so, obviously it helps in the right circumstances, however, it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.

we could "what if" this all day long though!
I'm not talking about "what ifs"

I was being a bit of a smart ass though. I was alluding to the fact that I think Aikido techniques are designed for weapons retention, and not for unarmed fighting. Aikido's techniques teach you how to get at, use, and keep your weapon. They don't teach you how to fight one on one (or heaven for bid more then one on one) while unarmed.

Aikido techniques are very ineffective, and I would say many of them are useless, unarmed. But if you look at the system as a weapons retention system, they work like a charm.

So the message the technical syllabus teaches you is to always be armed....why do you think uke is always grabbing nage's wrist...

Lynn,
you are whipping out these one-liners like a Chinese fortune cookie factory.

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Old 03-13-2007, 09:12 PM   #74
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkbbBSDSls&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3 Fp%3D1384875

Look at this clip, especially at 2'07"to 2'17. I believe they are ShodoThugs [TM], I see a beautiful REAL Uncooperative Tanto Randori. Way to go ShodoThugs! It is avery well executed RAN-DORI sequence IMO.

Boon.
Boon,

You find the best vids. Dr. Loi's waza is just sooo crisp in both the kata and randori parts of the Shodothug clips. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I could just imagine what would happen if that Uke went all out with those tanto strikes.

Regarding limitations to Aikido training and waza re: tanto I think the only limitations that exist are what the individual places on ones own potential ability and creativity. One can never completely control all the variables in an any conflict, but one can control oneself. When your empty hands may be the only thing you have and the proverbial hits the fan it may surprise one what weapons of flesh and bone may be capable of. In an instant all the "mental masturbation and what if-ing" gives way to the obvious, which can go in a few different directions depending on a variety of factors.

However if one trains assuming that any goal is impossible to achieve then it will be without a doubt.

Kevin said -
Quote:
it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.
This is so true and is often even moreso when one is the vitcim of a well-executed ambush. Being armed and being able to bring arms to bear in many situations can be a luxury many may not be able to afford.

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 03-13-2007, 09:29 PM   #75
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Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post

Aikido techniques are very ineffective, and I would say many of them are useless, unarmed. But if you look at the system as a weapons retention system, they work like a charm.

So the message the technical syllabus teaches you is to always be armed....why do you think uke is always grabbing nage's wrist...
I believe there is a lot to what Chris is saying.

But first we have to start be defining perspectives. It should be clear in reading some of the responses on this thread, that what people think is "uncooperative" and what people think is "good" (meaning, apparently, realistic) knife defense have very different standards, and reveal a lot about where they may be coming from in light of dealing with a knife. It is also the reason there is so much conflicting information about dealing with knife attacks in the martial arts and combatives community.

Lynn's and George's points are far, far closer to what happens most often.

Back to Chris's quote - certainly when there is a focus on a weapon, or retaining it, all sorts of locks and joint-lock projections start appearing. I've trained combatives with an aikidoka whose abilities in the clinch improved considerably once we started introducing weapons - training knives and simuntion guns - into the mix. It gave me pause and more respect for what aikido has to offer. As has also been stated, BJJ with weapons introduced starts developing all sorts of very koryu-esque controls and pins. Things that open up when the guy has a knife.

Has to be trained the right way, though, and don't ever assume that having a weapon means a weapon fixation is inevitable. More on that later.

ANY inkling that an unarmed man has an advantage over one with a knife, even an untrained one, is dojo fantasy. Period. Not denigrating any person individually, but if you believe this, and if you teach it to students, you are endangering their lives.Time to re-think your approach.

Most martial arts approaches and responses to knife are dojo fantasy as well, to include from many of the arts already mentioned on this thread. Yup, even the Filipino stuff.

What separates reality from martial arts is what is neatly summed up with the terms "unequal initiative" and "asymmetric engagement." Some reading:

http://www.shivworks.com/mythproparm.asp

Go to Youtube and look for prison knifing videos. That's what you see in the streets, 'cuz guess where a lot of the guys who end up mugging you with a knife learn their stuff?

Responding to such an attack is another matter. FWIW, Chris is actually not far off reality, though the "pickup" is of critical importance, he just doesn't show one in that clip, he's starting "after."

Realize too, as George noted, that your pickup will most likely be late, probably after you've already been cut, because more often than not you won't even be aware a knife is in the mix unless the guy actually came up and mugged you with it - against your throat or pressed into your back, not waved at you from a comfortable distance. George is absolutely right, many people will tell you they first realize a blade was involved when they saw blood. Before that they thought they were just "getting punched." It is common, not at all unusual.

So, you have to integrate your knife defense with your flinch reflex/instinctive/default response training. IOW, what you do to deal with a sudden unarmed sucker punch, is what you'll do with a knife. There is no "do it one way with a knife, do it another with unarmed," because it is very likely you won't have the time or information to make the assessment. If you have that time, your response should be evasion/accessing a weapon of your own. But if you have done your flinch response and then realized he has a blade, the difference for the properly trained is in how quickly you can change it to control of the striking hand.

Remember too, that people will switch hands, they will use the off hand to control, strike and distract, they will flank your and try to get your back, all the while pumping that knife into your face, your gut, and whatever else you might leave open during the onslaught. They train it in jail, and they use it on each other, so train your knife defense accordingly.

Then there is deploying a weapon of your own. Just carrying one is of no effect if you can't produce it skillfully under confrontational dynamics.

You must train extensively in deploying your weapons. What does that mean? No, not with a wooden tanto slipped into your hakama. It means with the folder or fixed blade (or gun) that you wear on the street, in the clothing you wear on the street. Practice drawing it - quickly - from various positions. Spar/roll with a partner and practice drawing it without his fouling your draw or taking your weapon, or maybe without him even noticing. Then, practice him blitz attacking you, you controlling him enough to buy time and position to access your own.

Then give him a weapon too.

Control the weapon hand. Do not "ignore the weapon, fight the man." Control the weapon, fight the man. Striking is great so long as you gain/maintain control his weapon hand (or the muzzle). If he tries to take your weapon do not ignore the attempt and try to fight the man. Control his access to your weapon and fight the man.

Integrate your combatives platform.Your clinch work should blend into your knife and gun handling (and defense) which should blend with your striking. It promotes performance efficiency (when adrenalin is flowing) and saves time in a real world encounter. This is a problem for those who practice multiple and/or disparate martial systems with different flavors and don't "make them one" - it matters if you are training too many different ways or in ways which are incompatible.

Remember the thugs out there train with their weapon in only one carry position, the same one he carries it in every day, and from which he has experience drawing it in multiple actual assaults. This repetition of one way become critical when the distractions of a real fight are a factor.

Some more reading folks may find interesting:

http://www.shivworks.com/systemsapproach.asp

Last edited by KIT : 03-13-2007 at 09:32 PM.
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