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Old 01-26-2007, 09:06 AM   #1
kocakb
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aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?
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Old 01-26-2007, 09:51 AM   #2
ChrisMoses
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Cool video, thanks for the link. I'm guessing the aikido guy is from the European line of Yoseikan Aikibudo (based on the short sword kata they showed him doing, and what came out in the ring), which would explain some of the MMA and judo like moves that he used. Interesting that what seems to have worked best for the aiki-dude was the locks and leg shoots, when he tried to mirror the muay thai stuff he didn't fare as well.

Oh, and the meat of the video starts at about 2:25 if you want to skip the actual match.

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Old 01-26-2007, 12:37 PM   #3
DonMagee
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

I liked the quasi knee walking he used to defend that kick while he was down. The MT guy was getting the better of him though, but he faired well. It was obvious this was not an all out match, just light contact friendly sparing. It was refreshing to see they could keep it there as well.

- Don
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:33 PM   #4
Aristeia
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

A couple of thoughts:
1. The Aiki guy fared better than I expected which is good to see.
2. Having said that I think the fact they weren't going 100% worked better for the Aiki guy. Some of those knees etc that were being thrown would likely have ended the fight at 100%
3. At the risk of sounding all soapboxish it reinforced for me again the synery betwee aiki and bjj. There were a number of times in that vid when his aiki was leading him right into a bjj type position or situation. If he had of kept grappling at that point with BJJ trainng it would have been a seamless transition and a very potent combination.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:07 PM   #5
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

halfway interesting

the aikibudo guy took the mt guy down several times but either because they were just sparring or lack of skills or experience with combative opponents wasn't able to finish control

then he seemed to change his game and started spending more time punching and kicking back producing predictable results

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Old 01-26-2007, 03:44 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Useful practice for us all, I should imagine.

I, too, like the even tone and control of the match conducted throughout at half speed or so.

(And yes, the MT guy would have crushed the other guy with those knees...)

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Old 01-26-2007, 03:49 PM   #7
aikidoc
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:03 PM   #8
Aristeia
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.
Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:06 PM   #9
Tharis
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Amateurish observations...

Aikidoka should stick with aikido tactics. The punching and kicking looked pretty sad.

Nice kotegaishi, but he failed to control the elbow, and there went that.

Decent grappling, but once he gets into a certain range, he doesn't have the tools needed. I'm sure there's a great sales pitch for BJJ in there somewhere.

In general, based on my own experiences, Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring. We practice for solid, committed attacks with intent to KO, not the feinting and jabbing of a sparrer. Also, and my teacher used to (probably still does) harp on this a lot: There's a tendency among some Aikidoka to get into this weird "fighting" mentality where we tense up and try to force techniques onto the aggressor, with results that look comical under forgiving circumstances. I think the Aikido guy was falling into that trap towards the end, with predictable results, definitely falling into the Muay Thai guy's game.

Also, I'm starting to think that Aikido tactics work best from an approach of total domination. No matter how they move, you move with their move and make it your own. I was watching that and wondering if the guy wouldn't do well to just close range and force the kind of committed attacks we're used to rather than hovering at ma-ai and waiting for the punch to come. Then again, in some situations such an approach may be a knife's edge away from suicide.

All told, a very informative video, and I think the guy held up well under the circumstances. I also think that if there were a "winner" or "loser" the muay thai guy probably won.
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:09 PM   #10
Karen Wolek
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

I'm only 1st kyu, so take this for what it's worth, but I didn't see a lot of aikido-like movement in there. He stepped back a lot and blocked a lot, and didn't do a lot of redirecting or entering either.

Then again, I am not really sure what "aikibudo" is.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:14 PM   #11
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Very interesting. Thanks for the vid!

A secret of internal strength?:
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:01 PM   #12
L. Camejo
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Ok I know it's not a fight, but Omg they really call that sparring? It looked more like semi-planned, cooperative, light freeplay. The degree of telegraphing on both sides was ridiculous imho. Not sure which were more painful to watch, the long range irimi nage that would have no hope of connecting by the Aikibudo guy or the spinning elbows used by the MT guy when his target was at kicking range.

I think it would have been a lot better had they actually done some medium contact sparring. Imho that vid cheapened both styles a bit. Imho of course.

Well you asked for opinions.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-26-2007, 09:24 PM   #13
Michael Varin
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

This was obviously very light contact, which is fine. You can learn a lot from that type of sparring, as long as you understand where it fits.
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Imho that vid cheapened both styles a bit.
At first I totally disagreed with this statement, but I thought about it, and you're probably correct. It doesn't show what either art is really good at. . . but learning how to NOT do something is quite beneficial.
Quote:
Thomas Harris wrote:
Aikidoka should stick with aikido tactics.
In general, based on my own experiences, Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring. We practice for solid, committed attacks with intent to KO, not the feinting and jabbing of a sparrer.
I think the Aikido guy was falling into that trap towards the end, with predictable results, definitely falling into the Muay Thai guy's game.
This is one of my pet issues. Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring, because the techniques have a low relevance in those situations. They are simply out of context. Give the aikido guy a bokken and watch how the two arts match up. Suddenly the muay thai guy would be compelled to play a different game.

If weapons aren't present the techniques of aikido can't shine. They come from a culture where weapons, particularly edged weapons, were always carried. If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit.

Physical conflict extends far beyond one-on-one emptyhand, and we should try to force a square peg into a round hole.
Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.
Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?
Definitely possible!

Michael
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:16 PM   #14
xuzen
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?
Opinion:

It is easy to think about maai, linear, circular posture bla bla bla yadda yadda... in kihon. In sparring, anything goes. I would already be very happy to not get hit in a sparring, friendly or not.

I think the aiki-budo guy was OK, his heel trip on the MT guy was innovative. What I would criticize is his lack of ground knowledge to finish the fight in a more clear cut manner.

Aiki-budo guy, if you read this forum, for the record, you did good! Now, go learn some newaza.
Boon.

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Old 01-26-2007, 10:34 PM   #15
L. Camejo
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
I think the aiki-budo guy was OK, his heel trip on the MT guy was innovative. What I would criticize is his lack of ground knowledge to finish the fight in a more clear cut manner.
Hi Boon,

Are you referring to the heel trip early in the session where the Aikibudo guy was in hanza handachi and caught the MT guy's inner knee and heel? The same heel trip that placed his head in the perfect place for a knockout roundhouse kick to the temple that the MT guy very nicely placed too high to be of use?

Just askin.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-26-2007, 11:41 PM   #16
xuzen
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Boon,

Are you referring to the heel trip early in the session where the Aikibudo guy was in hanza handachi and caught the MT guy's inner knee and heel? The same heel trip that placed his head in the perfect place for a knockout roundhouse kick to the temple that the MT guy very nicely placed too high to be of use?

Just askin.
LC
Yo Larry...I review the clip again. Yes, I agree that the MT guy did purposely miss the Aiki guy's temple. I also see the MT guy elbow the nape of neck of the Aiki guy. If this is a REAL DEATH MATCH (TM) I think the aiki guy would have been KO.

However, one can also argue that the kotegashi followed by an elbow break would have ended the fight early on. Arguments such as this will forever be like a never-ending loop. quite akin to the chicken or egg, catch-22 type question.

Take the clip for what it is, a light full contact sparring to showcase each artist skills to the media, nothing more nothing less.

Ossu!

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:06 AM   #17
L. Camejo
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

I guess my point is one can do light or slow sparring without compromising the soundness of one's waza so much that the exercise itself becomes little more than a semi-scripted, paired dance.

What is the point of "sparring" if you are not using the particular training method to develop the things that the method is designed to develop? In the end it would be better to practice cooperative paired kata imho instead of empty waza in a "sparring" environment. Many of the waza attempted by both persons in the video were ineffective from the beginning of their deployment. Imho this sort of practice can actually hurt one's training and cause one to develop bad habits if it is done regularly.

From my own experience with both arts in the vid I know that the same exercise could have been done without the need to throw empty, off target strikes/waza. In the end a similar safety level would have been maintained (though the level of awareness would need to be elevated) and each person would have a better idea of their own technical abilities/deficiencies. It would be of great help in their training imho.

If the entire thing was a publicity stunt for the media then each art should have showcased itself in its own ideal environment instead of using a "Sparring" approach imho since this leads to a host of unknowns which can hurt one's presentation of the art.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-27-2007, 01:08 AM   #18
kocakb
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

I have found another vid. "Kyokushin Karate vs Muay Thai 1962", not sparring this time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWhSh_huZGs&NR
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Old 01-27-2007, 04:12 AM   #19
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

I'm reminded of a quote I heard from an inteview by Steven Seagal.
It was something akin to The difference between fighting on the matt and fighting in the street is like swimming on a matt compard to swimming in the ocean.
Sparring and 'fighting' are deffinatly two different monsters. Even in the newest fad, UFC, theres rules, on the street theres not.

I'm not a big fan of watching these videos then commenting on what would and wouldn't work on the street. Theres just too much left to chance.
A personal example I was sparring as a white belt and getting my ass handed to me by a black belt. They owned me, I couldn't land any decent strikes. When we had a go at it after class one night, outside of being 'in the ring' I grabbed them, got a few kicks and knees in, shook them and basically fought dirty remminisent of bar fights and "fight club" at work. They paniced and froze. Sparring is deffinatly a different monster.

The aiki fellow in the video did, in my opinion, a lot better than many non-aikidoa would have assumed. It's a common comment "show me a video of aikido in sparring" which as we know are few and far between. What happens when one is produced? "Well that wouldn't have worked etc.. etc.."
It's a lost cause

I'm sure it's bed said a million times but (I think) one of the best methods of training, especially in aikido, is aliveness training.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 01-27-2007, 05:56 AM   #20
kocakb
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I'm reminded of a quote I heard from an inteview by Steven Seagal.
It was something akin to The difference between fighting on the matt and fighting in the street is like swimming on a matt compard to swimming in the ocean.
Sparring and 'fighting' are deffinatly two different monsters. Even in the newest fad, UFC, theres rules, on the street theres not.

I'm not a big fan of watching these videos then commenting on what would and wouldn't work on the street. Theres just too much left to chance.
A personal example I was sparring as a white belt and getting my ass handed to me by a black belt. They owned me, I couldn't land any decent strikes. When we had a go at it after class one night, outside of being 'in the ring' I grabbed them, got a few kicks and knees in, shook them and basically fought dirty remminisent of bar fights and "fight club" at work. They paniced and froze. Sparring is deffinatly a different monster.

The aiki fellow in the video did, in my opinion, a lot better than many non-aikidoa would have assumed. It's a common comment "show me a video of aikido in sparring" which as we know are few and far between. What happens when one is produced? "Well that wouldn't have worked etc.. etc.."
It's a lost cause

I'm sure it's bed said a million times but (I think) one of the best methods of training, especially in aikido, is aliveness training.
you are completely right what you wrote, my aim was not to discuss is aikido effective etc...I found the video interesting because it is a good example to see that we learn aikido but we can not apply it easily due to habits. We learn that we should be always off-line, we are told not to block attacks, we are told that we should move in etc. but if we are in a situation where we don't know how we will be attacked, then we don't apply - (or forget) any of the learnt basics I wrote above. The aiki guy tried to kick or tried use the techniques like the MT guy does. I am sure, if the aiki guy would be in the dojo, training with another aikidoka, he would behave-move different...as a result, therefore, Jiu-waza, randori etc becames very important to us to learn to move in an aiki-way, not to forget the principles and basics.
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:18 AM   #21
RoyK
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:

If weapons aren't present the techniques of aikido can't shine. They come from a culture where weapons, particularly edged weapons, were always carried. If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit.
Wow, that's an interesting perspective, I'll ponder on that, thanks.
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:23 PM   #22
Rich Stephens
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses.
I searched and couldn't find anything but then searched for "aikido vs." and came up with an aikido vs. kickboxing video featuring Fabio Branno (with an "a"). Is this the guy you were thinking of? He did have some good moved against kicks. Thanks.
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:17 AM   #23
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
If the entire thing was a publicity stunt for the media then each art should have showcased itself in its own ideal environment instead of using a "Sparring" approach imho since this leads to a host of unknowns which can hurt one's presentation of the art.

LC
I agree completly. This event was done for tv and has nothing to do with any sparring (light or whatever) and represents nothing at all. However even in such bizarre environment aikibudoka did quite well. I suggest for everyone to try even once such experience before writing here comments about what this aikibudoka should do or not.......

From my humble experience it is VERY difficult, and I agree that from pedagogical point of view one should have some kind of structured training to prepare for such free play. I personally am working a lot on jiu waza but still in more or less cooperative environment. No important injuries so far!

Nagababa

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Old 01-28-2007, 11:43 AM   #24
L. Camejo
 
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Maybe I'm a bit thick here but if the folks were not really sparring, but not really doing a demo either, how did the Aikibudoka or the MT guy for that matter do well? They did well at what? Showing that Aikibudo may have an odd chance against okayish MT if light sparring/demonstration is being conducted? Or that MT strikes are generally way off target and is generally a good art to use to make Aikibudoka look good?

I'm all for a meangingful display of skill in sparring or other environments (e.g. demonstration) but it is important to understand the context. If one can show skill and ability against a seriously resisting/fighting opponent in a sparring contest (whether light or heavy) then I say kudos to that person, regardless of art. However there were many things in the vid that to me revealed that those folks were neither really sparring nor really demonstrating, it was kinda a little bit of both, which is fine as long as we remember this when attempting to make any judgement on "skill" or "how well" someone did.

This is like when a new student tells me how good a fighter Jet Li is based on all his movies and awards in demonstration Wing Chun. Imho Jet Li is a great martial artist and has superb demo/choreographed fighting skills and form, but I would not call him a good fighter because of his ability in demonstration. Likewise it is difficult to say that the Aikibudoka "did well" when he was not really under much pressure to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

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Old 01-29-2007, 01:44 AM   #25
CNYMike
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Re: aikido vs muay thai sparring video

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?
Sparring automaticaly makes a lot of things more difficult. The mere fact that when you start your counter, your partner will move or block changes things a bit. Unless you explode in, you won't get on his side the way irimi movements do. I never hadve, ayway.

But I did get off the line once. I was sparring in Jun fan, and my partner kicked with his right leg which I blocked with my left hand. When he put his foot down, he started doing a spinning backhand. When he started knew the vector it was going to be on and did a sideway shuffle to the side. The backfist sailed by. (The Sifu said, "No spinning techniques.")

The trick, I guess is to identify where "the line" is and think far enough ahead to make use of it. Not the easiest thing in the world!
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