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Old 01-22-2007, 09:16 AM   #201
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Take a look at the videos of O-Sensei taking a push to his body.... his body deforms. He briefly "resists".
Then you turn around and act like that 's totally impossible, according to the way YOU interpret Aikido, Erick.
I merely apply what I have been told and shown to resolve some useful consistency between them. And I do not claim it is "impossible" to do the things done. I just think you are incorrect in asserting how they are or should be done in relation to aikido priinciples.

And thank you. For going on record, again, that O Sensei supposedly does "bounces" by resisting with kokyu.

[[snipsky]]

Now one of the following must therefore be true, either:

1) "Bounces" by resisting are part of proper aikido training and he lied that aikido is a principle of "absolute non-resistance;" or

2) "Bounces" are part of aikido, and he performed them without using any resistance; or

3) "Bounces" are a related function but not part of proper aikido training, however they are performed.

I personally woudl tend toward number 2, based on the physics and O Sensei's videos and statements. Ledyard Sensei in his post seems to me to lean toward the agnostic position of number three, in his direct experience of Saotome doing these things. I'll defer to him on that, in either event.
The idea of "no resistance" is common as a basic tenet of all good Asian martial arts, Erick. Not just Aikido. You're still confusing "training/conditioning the body" with "technique". And you endlessly justify this confusion with the idea that you'll do what you practice when it comes to application. Does this mean that a fighter who lifts dumbells will automatically start doing dumbell-lifting motions when he gets into a fight? No. That's absurd.

I can withstand fairly strong pushes, but when I do my martial arts, I don't use resistance to an attack. Many people just stumble as soon as they touch me because I simply work with their balance/center.... and I use these "baseline skills" to do it. The "conditioning", aka the "baseline skills" are not the techniques, Erick. That has been repeated to you numerous times, even in this thread.

If you want to talk about "techniques", then no, one shouldn't "resist". Of course not. I.e., there is not head-to-head use of brute strength. Using techniques in which Uke can't even feel your presence is good. "Borrowing" Uke's force is good, too. There are two ways to "borrow" Uke's force in a direct, face-to-face way (this is true of all Asian martial arts). One is to take his push and pull it (a coarse description, but you get the point). The other is to reflect his incoming force so that his own force helps push him away. That also is considered "borrowing" and is NOT resistance. You have built some rigid definition of what you consider "resistance" and which does not conform with the not-to-be-done "resistance" discussed in martial arts.

However, we're NOT talking about resistance in techniques, in this thread... we're talking about how to train the baseline skills. Training the baseline skills will sometimes involve resistance for testing and learning. Even Tohei and Ueshiba have demonstrated these things, so this is a rather insane discussion that seems to on ad absurdum.
Quote:
The debate is in how he moves, and more particulalrly, whether he moves to deform his structure in resisting so as to "spring" back -- or moves in such a way to keep his structure from being deformed, and to magnify the force applied back to the attacker, or to dissipate it. In other words, what mechanical principle is operating -- that is the debate, and whether the mode of action you propose is within the training purposes of aikido.
I'm going to keep this simplistic. It is standard to say in terms of Ki/Qi training that the strength is not in the muscle and bones but is in the sinews and connective-tissue. Think again about a tensegrity structure. For instance Buckminster Fuller's geodesic dome (or any other polyhedric tensegrity structure) has joints, edges, and vertices. You're worried about the forces that arise from manipulating those joints. The "internal strength" aspects are more concerned with the connective tensions that unite the whole structure (in addition to the force manipulations I've mentioned, which are sort of analogous to struts within the tensegrity frame which are moved at will). I.e., you're barking up the wrong tree, Erick. And it gets more complicated because the body has to learn to move with this dependence on the cohesiveness of the "connection" of the body and also on the mind's ability to learn how to move with the addition of the mind-willed force vectors... greatly different from you idea of rotational accelerations.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:17 AM   #202
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Ah, yes, well, that (tensegrity = discontinuous compression spaceframes) is certainly an "improvement" (cough) over angular momentum -- in terms of common knowledge More to the point, irrelevant. Tensegrity is structural means, not a mechanical principle. Tensegrity structures obey the same mechanical dynamic principles as anything else.
Your angular moment theory, as tortured as it is in its attempt to appear refined, is by no means a fully fleshed-out representation of the complexities involved in movement. I've resisted saying that in some of your past glissandos and trillings about how physically accurate you're trying to be, but let's lay the hyperbole to rest, shall we? I understand the thrust of your argument; you understand the thrust of mine. Neither "model" is exact, but at least people reading the thread can get a quick idea of what I'm getting at without having to endure a peeing contest about whose physical analysis most accurately reflects the statics and dynamics of complicated physical movement.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:55 AM   #203
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You're worried about the forces that arise from manipulating those joints.
Not forces, per se, but moments, which depend vastly on centering, a big topic in our art. If I can increase moment by an alteration of center I can increase the force required to accelerate the structure. It is not leverage because inertial moments do not need a physical fulcrum to be effectively maniulated. Moreover, I can add moment and disrupt energy, I can reduce moment and magnify it.

When those manipulaitons are capable of energy modulation with compound square terms -- darn-tootin' I worry about them, and consider their uses. Especially, when I see (and feel) the shapes of the rotational manipulations of limbs and integrated body movement in the kihon and kokyu tanden ho exercises, as I have described, which are the repositories of the art.

Nikkyo stops a punch with the free hand not by pain or compression to hold him off, but by eliminating the torso moment of the punch by a connected shift of the shoulder nikkyo is connected to arcing forward. Both shoulders cannot rotate forward at the same time, and the rotation powering the punch dies, and also sucks his balance away, by altering his center.

Understanding this prinicple through nikkyo, I can destroy the mechanics of the punch and his balance simultaneously with the same principle from a hand grab (Tohei demonstrated this in a video) , or merely with my hand on his shoulder, or even merely with my hip in contact with his. That movement what ever you choose ot call it is a basic skill, only the circumstance of connection differs.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The "internal strength" aspects are more concerned with the connective tensions that unite the whole structure ... ... greatly different from you idea of rotational accelerations.
The difference is freely admitted. Can you show that such a system is less complicated than the model I support? Relaxed structural rotations in rhythm with structural breath actuation applied tangetially or perpendicular to structures and forces of concern. Is there any square term that will allow geometric magnification or dissipation of energy in your model?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... it gets more complicated because the body has to learn to move with this dependence on the cohesiveness of the "connection" of the body and also on the mind's ability to learn how to move with the addition of the mind-willed force vectors ...
Saotome wrote: "Instead of separating the techniques for study, we must study to see their similarities, the same application of principle, the same philosophical result. There is no perfect ikkyo, but any ikkyo is correct if executed spontaneously, sincerely, and in harmony with a particular situation."

Doing it, I generally do not dwell at all, if I can help it. Analyzing it afterward is a different matter. In my experience it gets simpler to do, the more capable I am of seeing the complexity, if I dwell on it, contemplate what was going on, and breaking it down in to more and more fundamental elements in common with many circumstances of interaction. It is one way to see if my mind was paying full attention as I was doing something. This is the Western Way of knowledge -- reduction, and it is admittedly incomplete -- as the Eastern Way of composite wholes is also incomplete.

I am articulating a root mechanical dynamic in Western terms but that does not conflict with other Eastern mode descriptions in holistic terms. O Sensei specifcally recommended this development in the art in scientific terms.

Such an approach can be right, with out traditional jin, ki, kokyu, or musubi concepts being wrong. I may well be wrong, and maybe someone will show that. I have been wrong before, so it doesn't particularly concern me if something closer to the truth comes to light as a result of a challenge to prove me wrong.

Mechanics is hardly all there is to aikido. A root mechanical principle is something to look for in the study of aikido, especially when talking about basic skills training such as kokyu tanden ho.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:18 PM   #204
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Not forces, per se, but moments, which depend vastly on centering, a big topic in our art. If I can increase moment by an alteration of center I can increase the force required to accelerate the structure. It is not leverage because inertial moments do not need a physical fulcrum to be effectively maniulated. Moreover, I can add moment and disrupt energy, I can reduce moment and magnify it.
Fine, but you're back to "technique". I can touch someone lightly and with jin and buckle their knees or make them fall or put them off balance, yada, yada, yada, but the converstion in the thread is about the jin.... not what you can do with it.
Quote:
When those manipulaitons are capable of energy modulation with compound square terms...
But we're talking about the baseline skills, not the "manipulation" of someone else. Hello???
Quote:
Nikkyo stops a punch...
We're talking about the baseline skills, not techniques.
Quote:
Can you show that such a system is less complicated than the model I support?
Who cares, "less complicated"? Depends on how you want to describe it. There is only one jin as a basis for the Asian martial arts. Ueshiba used it. He used the standard demo's. He talked about it with the (old) traditional terms. He moved these forces from the middle because that is the "joint" between the ground/gravity and the point of application. "How complicated" has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
I am articulating a root mechanical dynamic in Western terms but that does not conflict with other Eastern mode descriptions in holistic terms. O Sensei specifcally recommended this development in the art in scientific terms.
Yeah, you can apply an analysis to a lot of things, but that doesn't mean your analysis is correct or that its thrust is spot on. You could say that a piston engine is about rotational moment (what isn't?) or "levers and force couples" (what isn't?) and you'd be "right", but you'd miss the point.
Quote:
Mechanics is hardly all there is to aikido. A root mechanical principle is something to look for in the study of aikido, especially when talking about basic skills training such as kokyu tanden ho.
No one said mechanics is all there is to Aikido. None of us. Nowhere. We're talking about baseline skills.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:22 PM   #205
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
....You're worried about the forces that arise from manipulating those joints. The "internal strength" aspects are more concerned with the connective tensions that unite the whole structure (in addition to the force manipulations I've mentioned, which are sort of analogous to struts within the tensegrity frame which are moved at will)..... And it gets more complicated because the body has to learn to move with this dependence on the cohesiveness of the "connection" of the body and also on the mind's ability to learn how to move with the addition of the mind-willed force vectors...
I've added emphasis to Mike's points above, to highlight the key (no pun intended) idea in what to look for in developing the baseline skills we are discussing.

The basic thrust of the baseline exercises is to connect your body in various ways, using this idea of the body as a tensegrity structure - i.e. the long bones are the struts, and the sinews, tendons and connective tissue being the elastic tensioning "device" that holds the struts together.

Granted, it is a simplistic (and perhaps imperfect) model, but it may help illustrate what is currently being discussed.... in simple terms.

It may also go toward explaining why some of us consider Erick's joint rotation model to be off-base in many ways...

How does that song go? The foot bone is connected to the ankle bone, the ankle bone is connected to the shin bone, the shin bone is connected to the knee bone.... Sure, they might be connected at the joint, BUT the joint is merely the point of articulation.... something else happens first before the joint can articulate.

Instead, consider.... What makes the long bones move? What causes the body to stabilize itself? What happens when the body is under load or acted upon by a (linear) external force? What difference is there, if any, if the body is relaxed/tensed in that circumstance? How do you redistribute the load/force on your body so as not to stress it structurally? How does the "unbendable arm" thing REALLY work?

Don't take anybody's word for it...mine, Mike's, Erick's, or some 7th dan shihan...

Ignatius
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Old 01-22-2007, 06:05 PM   #206
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Too late to edit... meant to add "What is the purpose of the unbendable arm trick? What is this trick demonstrating and why?"

Ignatius
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Old 01-22-2007, 06:49 PM   #207
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Instead, consider.... What makes the long bones move? What causes the body to stabilize itself? What happens when the body is under load or acted upon by a (linear) external force? What difference is there, if any, if the body is relaxed/tensed in that circumstance? How do you redistribute the load/force on your body so as not to stress it structurally? How does the "unbendable arm" thing REALLY work?
When someone pushes against Tohei's (for example) forearm, his chest, his shoulder, etc., he essentially lets the lower-body/ground handle the responsibility for the push. That is, he allows the body to form a path to the ground (this is the mind-body thing), so his body musculature doesn't have to do much more than maintain the integrity of that path. As a result, Tohei's body doesn't present as much of a moment-arm (lever arm) to the push and he's very had to push over.

This path from the push to the ground or the ground to the push (depending on how you look at it), is the essence of Kokyu. Kokyu-ho-dosa, Reiki-no-ho, etc., essentially practice moving this path through the arms while trying not to use the arms.

The "Unbendable Arm" is supposed to be simply another example of bringing the ground someplace, in this case the arm. If you push down on my arm, you're going to feel the ground, as purely as I can make it. The Ki Society may say something about a hose and water, but their visualization will bring about the same "ground" effect, for the most part. [[Incidentally, I have never liked the 'unbendable arm' demo because there are 3 or 4 ways to do it wrong and still think you've got it. I tend to avoid it because it's not a very definitive demo.]]

The interesting thing to note about the Ki-Society, IMO, is that while they use different terminology and different visualizations, they use the same principles and effects. As David Shaner Sensei began to try to give more detailed descriptions of what was really happening in some of the Ki-experiments, he easily and obviously overlapped metaphors and analogies a few times.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:23 PM   #208
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The "Unbendable Arm" is supposed to be simply another example of bringing the ground someplace, in this case the arm. If you push down on my arm, you're going to feel the ground, as purely as I can make it. The Ki Society may say something about a hose and water, but their visualization will bring about the same "ground" effect, for the most part. [[Incidentally, I have never liked the 'unbendable arm' demo because there are 3 or 4 ways to do it wrong and still think you've got it. I tend to avoid it because it's not a very definitive demo.]]
My bad.... I clean forgot there are several ways to do this "exercise"... wrongly. Some people have explained it (incorrectly) as the antagonistic action of the bicep and tricep. You can relax the bicep and let the tricep accept the load (which is the WRONG way), and still have an unbendable arm... up to a certain limit.

Letting the force go to ground or bringing the ground to the arm (whichever way you look at it), is, I think, THE point of the exercise. Personally, I think the imagery of hose and water detracts from the real purpose of the exercise.... not to say that mental imagery is not a key component of the exercise, just not the imagery I would use.

Ignatius
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:01 AM   #209
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

What imagery do you use?


R
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:26 AM   #210
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

If I told you I'd have to kill you

Really, you could use whatever imagery works for you.... the point is not so much what mental image you use, as long as you're not consciously focusing on someone trying to bend your arm....

Ignatius
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:15 AM   #211
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
What imagery do you use?
First you have to be able to do it to the arm, shoulder, or someplace.... reasonably well. Then you just make the same "ground" at the arm. It becomes almost unconscious... where you want it, it's there.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:43 AM   #212
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
First you have to be able to do it to the arm, shoulder, or someplace.... reasonably well. Then you just make the same "ground" at the arm. It becomes almost unconscious... where you want it, it's there.
The ground is always where I want it; right under my feet.

It is consistent like that.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:53 PM   #213
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Raul, I was in the mood yesterday and I made a fairly lengthy dissection, as I see it, on kokyu ho, how to approach the core skillset, etc., but it turned out better than I thought it would. So, as has happened several times in the recent past, I take a look at some of the odd posters that I'd be sharing information with and I decided not to post it here.

One of the things I've thought was timely about this thread, Justin and a couple of others putting in their nonsense, etc., is that there's a good case in point about why you don't openly share information in the martial arts. There are too many people who simply don't deserve it, haven't worked for it, would abuse it, and if they knew even a little bit they'd strut it around for their own glorification. I.e., why bother?

I'll brush it up some more and post it on QiJing in a day or so.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:41 PM   #214
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... I made a fairly lengthy dissection, as I see it, on kokyu ho, how to approach the core skillset, etc., but it turned out better than I thought it ... I decided not to post ... don't openly share information ... too many .. don't deserve it, haven't worked for it, would abuse it, ... they'd strut it around for their own glorification. I.e., why bother?
Why indeed? A question that has been asked here, before:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...77&postcount=1

The only glory I need or look for is the words "IT IS SO ORDERED" signed off at the bottom of something I prepared.

See, in my line of work (since I don't get paid a dime in aikido) we have to confront disagreements directly and persuade not merely in the face of ignorance of the merits of a dispute, but in the face of knowledgeable and committed opposition. Honorable adversaries in my arena still find a way to share time over a beer at the end of a case, sometimes even at the end of the day.

It is always easier to preach to the willing acolyte on facts provided than to persuade the critical mind with facts contested. If you are not interested in persuasion, why are you here?

This is budo, an arena of conflict, in which are supposed we make harmony, not recline in it.

Try us.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:11 PM   #215
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Why indeed?
Erick, I think you miss the point that a number of people (even more, if you count a lot of lurkers) on this forum know a fair amount about this stuff or have encountered it and therefore have an idea of what's going on. I don't want to engage in anymore fruitless "debate" with someone who doesn't know the subject; I don't want to share things above a certain baseline on a too-public forum. Why should I? Your cite didn't say anything in real argument and your stump-posting didn't either.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:17 PM   #216
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'll brush it up some more and post it on QiJing in a day or so.

Pardon my ignorance, but whats QiJing? Is that a public area or a mailing list?


best


RAUL
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Old 01-23-2007, 03:37 PM   #217
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'll PM the info, Raul, rather than create a side-topic.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:58 PM   #218
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

And thus endeth the thread...

Tis unfortunate that this thread didn't get as many views as the Aikido Addict thread or as many posts as the Word War 3 thread.... which kinda says something...

See, Mike... I told you so...

Last edited by eyrie : 01-23-2007 at 05:00 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:49 PM   #219
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
One of the things I've thought was timely about this thread, Justin and a couple of others putting in their nonsense, etc., is that there's a good case in point about why you don't openly share information in the martial arts. There are too many people who simply don't deserve it, haven't worked for it, would abuse it, and if they knew even a little bit they'd strut it around for their own glorification. I.e., why bother?
Please don't let me and a few others who are below you, scare you away.

We'd miss out on crucial information on internal strength, such as

"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:09 PM   #220
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Re: Baseline skillset

From the peanut gallery,
I usually don't post because I do not have much to add. While I have figured somethings out, I know I still have much to learn. Personally I enjoy reading these debates, mostly because they expand my perspective. I listen to peoples responses & I try them out, its a learning experience, It is good thing to hear these different perspectives, to hear other points, to debate, hell its how we grow & evolve. I am thankful for all those who post their opinions & discuss the reasoning behind their positions. But what I don't understand, is why do you (Justin) keep posting subtle negative comments? Of course it is ok to disagree w/ someone, & pretty much everyone gets a little hot under the collar every now & then, but please just argue your points & keep it relevant to the discussion.
Again, thanks to all who offer their opinions
Moses
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:03 AM   #221
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Well Moses, (and everyone else in the peanut gallery), do feel free to post what you consider to be "baseline skills" for Aikido and why.... I think the Justin, Erick and Mike show is well and truly over... (BUT... I have known to be wrong occasionally... at least my wife would like to think) and it would interesting to see what others thoughts are....

Ignatius
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Old 01-24-2007, 08:33 AM   #222
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well Moses, (and everyone else in the peanut gallery), do feel free to post what you consider to be "baseline skills" for Aikido and why ....
This forum is a place for intellectual sharing but also intellectual challenge, not to give an easy comfort in established assumptions of knowledge. It is always easier to persuade the willing follower on facts provided, than to persuade the critical mind on facts disputed. Everything has to be vetted in training, but ideas have their own power and relevance, and their own modes of conflict and resolution.

In a forum on an art about conflict and its resolution, any set of ideas is subject to challenge. Any idea or set of ideas that simply departs the field of inquiry does not end the conflict in the sense that Aikido strives to do, by reconciling the conflict. Avoidance is not aikido. Any advocate of an idea ought to accept and indeed welcome such challenge, as long as it is both honorably and appropriately stated -- even mocking silliness may be honorable if properly done. Anybody seen the Daily Show lately?

Aikido does not shrink from conflict, but neither does it relish in it for its own sake. Foundational ideas we have gleaned in coming along our own path that give us comfort in our ordinary training should be a safety net for more precarious explorations, not a hammock to recline in. But, just as foundational ideas are not sacrosanct from challenge, novel approaches, or even novel application of old concepts from other disciplines to new areas are equally subject to challenge. All ideas are potentially useful but usefulness is circumstantial, and may reasonably be questioned, if a sound basis for questions is given.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-24-2007, 09:26 AM   #223
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

If it's other opinions you want, I guess I'll chime in a bit.

I studied aikido about 10 years in the U.S., but never really felt it was right. I came to Japan 12 years ago and have studied aikikai style about 6 years total. I've asked a billion questions about aikido/ki/kokyu, etc. and for the most part, no one here(in my dojo) really understands it completely. There's never really time to talk to anyone here outside of class(workaholics) and even so, the language is still somewhat a barrier. And as per this thread, it's all pretty hard to put into words. Just today I was looking at a kanji that means transport and my friend said it meant haulage(must be a British thing.) and I hadn't a clue what he was talking about. It took me a while to pick out the "haul" from his accent and work it out.

So for me, it's really great to read about what/how I am/should be doing aikido. I've almost never verbalized what I do since I came to Japan so it's nice reading it in English. Nice to read about theory/philosophy/imagery AND this baseline skillset thread, even if the read is a little bumpy. So's my aikido, buh dum bump! I'll preface what I write with the excuse that I don't really know anything. I'm just guessing about what I do and feel in the dojo and what I think might be happening. In my dojo we usually do seated kokyu at the end of class, and I always look forward to it. Recently I read of others doing that in the beginning and I think that's a great idea. And I suppose kokyu would be a good place to start learning aikido.

It's been said before here:
Relaxation, connection, moving from one's center, maintaining balance, smooth movement, breathing. It all seems to be important to me(especially that breathing part!) I'm not sure about the back leg talk and the friction of the feet, but I certainly feel a lowering of my center, a relaxing of the muscles, slow, controlled breathing, a centering of myself. All very vague, I know, but that's what I feel. I might not know how to do it right all the time, but I definitely know when I'm doing it wrong. And that is also important.

Nothing wrong with being a rock or a tree or connected to the center of the Earth or even being in complete harmony with the universe and overflowing with the all powerful ki stuff. And heck, rotate whatever you like as long as it works for you.

I think I favor how Mike has been explaining things, but at the same time I don't think Eric should be faulted for believing otherwise. A lot of what Eric said made sense to me. But perhaps Eric could explain what he would think a good skillset would consist of and how to teach it using his concepts and jargon and allow Mike his beliefs.

Would like to learn more in this thread so if you all have more to say, please do. I'll soak it all up like Sponge Bob Squarepants.

Thanks all,
Eddie
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Old 01-24-2007, 09:58 AM   #224
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
In a forum on an art about conflict and its resolution, any set of ideas is subject to challenge.
When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough.

When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much.


Fen-Yang

It's one thing to debate perspectives of strong ideas; it is another thing to never get to the ideas but to only argue the alphabet with which they're written.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:48 AM   #225
shodan 83
Dojo: Sho Dojo North Florida Aikikai
Location: Tallahassee Florida
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
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Re: Baseline skillset

Mike we can only lead them to the water, you can't make anyone drink from the well. So if those of you out there who wish to discount the validity of the arguments, that is your prerogative. There are many of us who realize that there is more to this any many other arts which was there that isn't now, or more accurately for a myriad of reasons hasn't been passed down. So go along and discount it as non-valid, enjoy your training and don't worry about it.

E
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