Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2007, 04:50 PM   #176
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
Any curve is an infinite series of infinitely small straight lines, each one at an infinitely small angle to the next.

Therefore if you can't do something linearly, you can't do it in a spiral.

Q.E.D.
Come now, calculus is useful to describe some aspects of reality -- but it isn''t really.

A straight line is merely a three dimensional conic section, (circle, ellipse or paraboloa) -- seen edgewise, and the only straight-line conic section is the intersection of a surface tangent to the curved surface of the conic itself. In other words, in three or more dimensions "straight lines" are derivatively defined in relation to curved surfaces, and linear curves, and are easily mistaken where there are really underlying arcs and rotations. Q.E.D.

Categories are fun things, aren't they?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 04:55 PM   #177
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Conversely, resistance (as I have complained about) requires a point of application, and is therefore anthithetical to kokyu.
The problem with your personal assertion of what "kokyu" is, in that resistance is antithetical to it", is that I've seen (and so have a number of others) actual Japanese shihans stop somebody cold, not moving, and say "use kokyu" to describe the kind of power that stopped others cold.

Same thing with your idea that a "bounce" is "not Aikido", even when Ueshiba demonstrates exactly that in videos on film. This stuff permeates Asian martial arts, Erick.... you can't just assert on your own what the rules and logic are.


Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 05:07 PM   #178
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The problem with your personal assertion of what "kokyu" is,..
As opposed to your personal assertion of what kokyu is?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 05:21 PM   #179
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Same thing with your idea that a "bounce" is "not Aikido", even when Ueshiba demonstrates exactly that in videos on film.
That is not what I said. I did say that a "bounce" done the way you suggest it is or should be done involves resistance, and therefore is prima facie not appropriate to aikido. I have corrected you several times in misstating what I said on this point. Argue with something I did say. There is plenty to choose from -- I hate to edit.

I have never disputed the power of kokyu to do these things. Anyone can see them. I have asserted that what is done is done by a means different from what you suggest, and is not linear and is not resistant, like your "store/release" model. Your assertion of some linear mechanism by which these things are done, with opposing component forces, and of what kokyu is, in mechanical terms, and in relation to aikido training, I have disputed.

Argue with that, maybe.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 05:40 PM   #180
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
That is not what I said. I did say that a "bounce" done the way you suggest it is or should be done involves resistance, and therefore is prima facie not appropriate to aikido.
Well, the films are right there for anyone to view. First you said that forces had to be at right-angles or more.... then you changed it in light of the films. Then you said that "bouncing" was not Aikido, but now you've amended it so that it's OK, as long as it's not done the way I explain it. You're a pip. Then there's the convoluted explanations you have... it appears that the convolutions allow you to assert what is correct and what is not. Who needs Ueshiba on film?
Quote:
I have asserted that what is done is done by a means different from what you suggest, and is not linear and is not resistant, like your "store/release" model. Your assertion of some linear mechanism by which these things are done, with opposing component forces, and of what kokyu is, in mechanical terms, and in relation to aikido training, I have disputed.
Don't get me wrong... I'm happy for you to believe as you like. I've stated this before. Your idea that despite all the commonalities in Asian martial arts, etc., that Aikido and the "ki skills" in it are somehow radically different from all the martial arts of Asia and that only you have seen through to the rotational subtleties is interesting to watch.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 06:47 PM   #181
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Kokyu development needs to start with linear.
As an aside, my jujitsu instructor (who has had exposure to aiki arts via Obata, who is the patron of his organization), once commented that aikido was very linear.... FWIW.

IMO, many of the aiki taiso/"warmup" exercises are linear in nature. Funekogi undo is a good example. It's essentially the same concept as what we've been discussing - vis a vis shifting weight, push from the ground etc.

One of the exercises I use to illustrate how to do this correctly, is have a partner pull on your belt, as you rock your weight forward and backward using your big toe of your rear foot and front foot respectively.

Since a pull is the same as a push, albeit in the opposite direction, you can place a tanbo/jo at your tanden and your partner pushes into your tanden as you are doing the exercise.

IMO, this basic linear exercise is applicable to many, if not all, aikido techniques, in particular all variations of kokyu nage. It is what powers the movement. Of course there are additional "add-ons" which help add power, but they are beyond the baseline level which we are currently discussing.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:10 PM   #182
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Admittedly you were unclearl of the poositon (straight forward, down and out, to the side, or what have you.)
I meant straight out in front of you.... elbows locked and pointing down, arms parallel to the ground. Or were you referring to WHERE uke should be off-balanced? Does it matter? If you know how, you can off-balance in any direction - up, down, left, right, forward... or even bounce them backward...OR even make it so that they cannot lift their knees or balls of their feet without breaking their structure.

I should make a point about kokyu ho in general.... it is NOT a contest of strength - there is no win or lose. Uke does not "lose" by being off-balanced, and nage does not "win" by off-balancing uke. I think this point needs to be reinforced.

Initially, uke's role should be to provide a certain level of resistance - commensurate with nage's ability to ground and redirect forces. Uke's role is to help nage feel this.

As you both progress, uke is also working on grounding and redirecting force at all times. So, even if you as uke are taken to the ground, if nage is not grounding the force correctly, you *should*, in that position, be able to off-balance nage.

Or, if nage isn't grounding the force properly, you as uke *should* be able to exploit that and off-balance nage. If nage is using muscle tension, you as uke should be able to feel where the tension is and exploit it.

PS: Even though I made an artificial delineation between uke and nage, since it is not foreign to most people's understanding, it may be helpful to NOT think of of uke/nage as two separate roles.... think of it as being the one thing - uke is nage and nage is uke.

Last edited by eyrie : 01-21-2007 at 07:16 PM.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:13 PM   #183
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Who needs Ueshiba on film?
There's "bouncing" on this film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

But there's also a lot of questionable things as well, however, so we have to really question the worth of a snippet of film taken from a much larger demonstration.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:19 PM   #184
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

So should we then posit that another baseline skill is the ability to do kokyu tanden ho in the manner that Ignatius describes, arms extended, palm down, without the rotation of the forearm?

Or is that a higher level than than we can discuss fruitfully at the moment?

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 01-21-2007 at 07:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:23 PM   #185
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
As opposed to your personal assertion of what kokyu is?

The party wouldn't be complete without Justin.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:27 PM   #186
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
So should we then posit that another baseline skill is the ability to do kokyu tanden ho in the manner that Ignatius describes, arms extended, palm down, without the rotation of the forearm?
I think what Ignatius is pointing out is more the core skill of Kokyu-ho, when you remove the distracting tangents. The core skill of Kokyu-ho is simply to learn to harness the power of the ground going through you. Doing a "technique", "rotating your arms", etc., etc., are all nice things, but they are not the core of what Kokyu-ho-undo really is. "Kokyu-together-practice exercise" is for developing the power that you use in all other Kokyu throws, so to make it some specific technique only limits what students can learn from the exercise.

Kokyu-ho, Reiki-no-ho, or whatever you want to call it, is an ancient traditional exercises used by many ryu and the point was to develop the kokyu power. In that vein, many of the kokyu-ho practices had Uke simply resisting and Nage simply raising and lowering his arms using kokyu power. I honestly think it would do a lot of Aikido dojo's a lot of good to implement seated and standing kokyu-ho-undo's that are very simple, as I described.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 07:57 PM   #187
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think what Ignatius is pointing out is more the core skill of Kokyu-ho, when you remove the distracting tangents. The core skill of Kokyu-ho is simply to learn to harness the power of the ground going through you. Doing a "technique", "rotating your arms", etc., etc., are all nice things, but they are not the core of what Kokyu-ho-undo really is. "Kokyu-together-practice exercise" is for developing the power that you use in all other Kokyu throws....
That is precisely what I'm saying...

To muddy the waters even further, IMO, ALL aikido "technique" is "Kokyu-together-practice exercise"....

Hmmm... aikido as "tanren" - body, mind, spirit forging?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 08:08 PM   #188
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
That is precisely what I'm saying...

To muddy the waters even further, IMO, ALL aikido "technique" is "Kokyu-together-practice exercise"....

Hmmm... aikido as "tanren" - body, mind, spirit forging?
So really, the "baseline skills" are pretty simple. In fact, lo and behold, Koichi Tohei has what is at heart a fairly simple approach to the baseline skills (not that I full agree with his preferred approach), the Yiquan that Master Sum practices has a preferred approach that actually boils down in its essence to the same ideas, Taiji has the same baseline skills, and so forth. But a lot of people can't see the Baseline because they see the individual Techniques.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 08:18 PM   #189
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But a lot of people can't see the Baseline because they see the individual Techniques.
My teacher used to admonish us to "forget technique"... yet at the same time, senior instructors in the organization were to ensure that the "shapes" of techniques were being adequately drilled.

It's not the shape or the technique that's important... well it is and it's not. What's more important is what you don't see - this must be felt. Once you feel it, the shapes and techniques don't matter. Well, they do, but they don't at the same time.

* shovels more mud into water *

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 08:37 PM   #190
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Okay, I'd like to implement your approach, Ignatius, but I'd appreciate a few more hints on what to look for. My current mental model (as we learned it from some Aikikai shihan) is still very much technique oriented. Kokyu tanden ho is commonly presented as a way of using the inhalation into the hara coupled with the rotation of the forearm to lift uke's center (to break his connection with the ground) usually by making his elbows rise and therefore making him easy to move. This is the model that we get even from an Aikikai 7th dan. And then last year I took ukemi for a different kind of kokyu ho from a couple of Hombu instructors, Ito and Kuribayashi, and it was as you describe it. Palm down, arm extended. I felt like I'd been flicked away by a "pulse" of energy that I couldn't locate. Which is radically different from my usual experience.

So how does one know if one is using the ground in kokyu tanden ho? If you tell me that "one simply has to feel it," then that doesn't leave me any more enlightened.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2007, 09:37 PM   #191
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Raul,

I want to make one thing clear... this is not MY approach. It's Martial Arts 101... baseline skills that are common to many Asian MA.... i.e. the true meaning of 基本.

I think you're missing the point... Kokyu-ho undo is NOT a technique. It is "breath method exercise".... EXERCISE... like weight-lifting... with the "breath".... It is body conditioning, tanren-ho, which precedes, or rather, *should* precede any actual learning of technique. The difficulty is that aikido is an integrated practice...

OK, for the moment, forget about breath, or rotation of forearm/wrist and what have you, or even worrying about the hara. That's why we're talking about "baseline" skills... so for the moment, forget everything you think you know about kokyu ho, forget what some 7th dan "showed" you and work it out for yourself... from first principles. I had to work it out myself.... sensei didn't tell me everything, and neither will I. And yes, you have to feel it... work it out for yourself and OWN it.

I love seated techniques. It's a really good way to sit like a rock, feel the ground, and the triangular base is more stable. Learn to sit like a rock. Have someone push you gently from all sides (start with the front if it makes it easier). Just feel their push go to the ground. Feel where your stable points are.

Standing... same thing.... stand like a tree, feet shoulder width apart, relaxed, arms by your side. Have someone push gently from all sides (again start with the front if it helps). Feel their push go to the ground.

Have someone push gently along your weak lines, feel the push go to the ground. Find a way to remain standing even as they push.

OR... take a walk in the park or on the beach... take your shoes off... and feel the grass and sand.... feel the ki of Heaven and Earth flow thru you...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 12:01 AM   #192
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, the films are right there for anyone to view. First you said that forces had to be at right-angles or more.... then you changed it in light of the films. ... Then you said that "bouncing" was not Aikido, but now you've amended it so that it's OK, as long as it's not done the way I explain it.
I do you the courtesy of quoting your stated contradictions. Do not invent things and then put them in my mouth. It does not advance the discussion to merely suit your ad hominem attacks. It's all there in the archive. Please oblige me.

Another bit of advice about persuasion. Opinions are typically valued only to the degree that one is first seen to be a reliable reporter of the facts.

In addition -- I've changed nothing. "Tangency." It is a concept: action at right angles to a centripetal force, when acting along a reducing radius it forms a ballistic path, and a variable radius an orbital path. Do you know what a really tight parabolic or elliptical arc looks like if you are at the wrong angle or do not look carefully when it reverses direction ? A straight line movement. The Earth is not flat either, I should mention, appearances to the contrary not withstanding.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Your idea that despite all the commonalities in Asian martial arts, etc., that Aikido and the "ki skills" in it are somehow radically different from all the martial arts of Asia... ...
No, I have no such idea, nor have I voiced any such opinion. You have accused me and others in this forum of this silly strawman argument you keep throwing into these discussions, without any foundation whatsoever, at least on my part.

There are forms of Asian arts that use the same root principles for radically different purposes -- as is true for so many things. Nitroglycerin -- heart medication ... or explosive.

I am saying that the understanding of these things in the West needs a native foundation in our model of thinking for it to take root here. I am hardly alone in this idea. These ideas will remain a wilting hothouse flower in the West until they "go native." "Jin" concepts as a basis for analysis and discussion does little to aid in that, whatever other uses it may have. We have in aikido the more generally accessible ki no kokyu concept, which I do not maintain is different, just understood differently, and perhaps differently applied -- important, maybe subtle, distinctions that seem consistently to escape you. I will not assume that it is willful -- for that would be a moral judgment.

I have offered the common sense observation that elements of the limbs rotate in order to move, and so do elements of the spine. I have illustrated the connection between actual breath and the propagation of internal rotations through the frame of the relaxed body operating as an aspect of kokyu power. I have related that to the operation of hiriki or hi-ryoku, another recognized form of kokyu power. I have step by step worked through the operation of this in one of the most commonplace "body skills" exercises in most Aikido regimens readily accessible to (and therefore independently testable by) others -- kokyu tanden ho. I have given my sense of the fundamental nature of this form of movement, following authoritative teachers on this point, notably Saotome, but limiting my focus to the mechanical aspects.
Quote:
Mitsugi Saotome, "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature" wrote:
-- All Aikido movement is condensed in the kokyu ho training exercise. It holds all the technical secrets. Therefore, all other techniques extend from this training. --
I have illustrated kihon that contain training in some of the same underlying kokyu skills that the Chinese video examples have shown. I have given a few points in the physics of rotation to demonstrate the facility of exponential energy magnificaton and dissipation by manipulating that form of movement and the angular momentum it creates. This gives the order of magnitude of what is seen on video, and attested by others here, such as Ledyard Sensei. I have given a mechanical analysis of the application of those underlying principles that meshes with O Sensei's principle of "absolute non-resistance."

You, leaving aside the inexplicably venomous condescension, (toward someone you do not even know), and the ad hominem arguments, have not articulated a reasoned refutation of my points at all. You haven't told us how the body moves in kokyu linearly without rotating any joints, or why that should be disregarded as a fundamental point of our attention to the basic body mechanics. You cut off discussion of kokyu tanden movements as "waza" because they do not fit your Procrustean bed.

Since I, and most of those here, do have to rotate our limbs to move about, it may have some relevance to the discussion of basic body skills that you have not, so far, demonstrated to be worthless to consider. You have not shown how your "stored" energy is accomplished without deforming the structure and thus resisting applied force, and risking injury. You have even waved away O Sensei's direct statements about non-resistance as if they were of no importance.

In short, please either lay off, or argue a point or two on the merits.
Quote:
Mitsugi Saotome, "Principles of Aikido" wrote:
Training in musubi, irimi/tenkan principles and kokyu tanden ho should be lifelong studies as important to advanced students as they are to the beginner.
Those are the baseline skillsets I am exploring.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 03:31 AM   #193
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

yes, ignatius, i understand that its not just your approach but all Asian MA. I meant the approach that you describe. And precisely I am trying to leave behind the waza oriented approach to kokyu tanden ho. I am not arguing. I want to understand. And i will try the pointers you suggest. Thank you.

When I mentioned that the waza oriented model came from a 7th dan, i wasnt citing an authority in order to register my opposition to your idea. I was simply trying to show that this insistence on the technique oriented approach to kokyu tanden ho can come from pretty high up in the food chain, making it that much harder for junior people like me, who are interested in other, more internal approaches, to broaden their thinking.

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 01-22-2007 at 03:37 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 03:44 AM   #194
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I am saying that the understanding of these things in the West needs a native foundation in our model of thinking for it to take root here.....
Quote:
Mitsugi Saotome, "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature" wrote: -- All Aikido movement is condensed in the kokyu ho training exercise. It holds all the technical secrets. Therefore, all other techniques extend from this training. --
There's nothing inconsistent with what Saotome said and what Mike & I are saying here... it's just a matter of interpretation. Although the first question I would be asking is how both Mike and I can talk about something, from different paradigms, yet we both comprehend what the other is saying? How is it that Rob John, Dan Harden and others can also speak of the same things from different perspectives, yet some of us can understand and not others?

Quote:
Quote:
Mitsugi Saotome, "Principles of Aikido" wrote:
Training in musubi, irimi/tenkan principles and kokyu tanden ho should be lifelong studies as important to advanced students as they are to the beginner.
Those are the baseline skillsets I am exploring.
So are we... so are we... in fact, we just spoke of baseline skills in relation to kokyu-tanden-ho.... Mike and I agree on this point, but somehow you're still trying to fit your round peg joint rotation model into a square hole of linear forces.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 03:59 AM   #195
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
I am not arguing. I want to understand....i wasnt citing an authority in order to register my opposition to your idea.
Hi Raul, I recognize the genuine sincerity with which the question was asked. If I came across in any way other than positive encouragement, I sincerely apologize.

There is nothing wrong with the technique oriented approach... jujitsu is largely a technique oriented approach and they can still churn out quite capable martial artists using that paradigm - more capable than many aikido schools can IMO.

I love techniques too, don't get me wrong, but understanding the principles and knowing how to apply the principles are more important. Techniques are merely the embodiment of certain principles - i.e. they illustrate principles.

But understanding the principles helps with learning techniques better and faster. Imagine learning a new technique in a much shorter time - simply by understanding the basic principle.... that's what having the baseline skillset gives you.

As for the top-down insistence on technique oriented training approach, I'm sorry I can't help you there... other than to suggest, look to the principle and the baseline skills as the "motivation" (mechanism) for doing a technique. IOW, follow the technique as best you can, but use the baseline skill to accomplish it.

In fact, all the exercises that were mentioned before - the gist of it should form your everyday movement - i.e. every waking moment movement.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 05:19 AM   #196
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Yabusame? Can't find it in my Japanese dictionary-what does it mean?
Hi John.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InKmjTJzUGs

Not quite in the same league as Mongolian mounted archery, (but then I'm biased since I have had a Mongolian blue spot), and contrary to Erick's belief that there is no great reflection involved, it takes great skill to remain seated on the horse in full gallop whilst drawing a 100-160lb recurve composite, attempting to hit a target the size of a watermelon at 80 yards.

And again we see baseline skills in action - horse riding and archery - 2 of the 3 "virile" sports.... (the 3rd being wrestling)

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 07:49 AM   #197
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Erick's belief that there is no great reflection involved, it takes great skill to remain seated on the horse in full gallop whilst drawing a 100-160lb recurve composite, attempting to hit a target the size of a watermelon at 80 yards.
Skill beyond doubt. Contemplation -- not so much.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 08:16 AM   #198
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Mongolian mounted archery, [yabusame] [kyudo] ... And again we see baseline skills in action.
Reflecting further, you give something of an example of my point. Between the three forms of archery there are common skills --but very different modes in their training and employment.

Mongolian mounted archery was famed for its accuracy and distance of engagement. Yabusame was deadly for its accuracy with high rates of target aspect change in close flanking charges past a body of infantry. Kyudo is something else again, more akin, in martial terms, to the sniper's art.

Common skills, like Lao Tsu's uncarved block, only remain undffierentiated until the carving begins, and its purpose is revealed. Then there are important, sometimes antihetical, approaches and goals to training these common skills, on the one hand to cut a tight mortise joint, or on the other hand to carve a face.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 08:18 AM   #199
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
We have in aikido the more generally accessible ki no kokyu concept, which I do not maintain is different, just understood differently, and perhaps differently applied -- important, maybe subtle, distinctions that seem consistently to escape you. I will not assume that it is willful -- for that would be a moral judgment.
Because I don't agree with your "subtle distinctions", there must be something personally wrong with me? Heh. I grokked your whole wild theory plus its "subtle" ramifications the first time you wrote it out, Erick. Believe it. I read it seriously to see what, if any, redeeming points it had.
Quote:
You, have not articulated a reasoned refutation of my points at all. You haven't told us how the body moves in kokyu linearly without rotating any joints, or why that should be disregarded as a fundamental point of our attention to the basic body mechanics. You cut off discussion of kokyu tanden movements as "waza" because they do not fit your Procrustean bed.
Why am I going to "reason" with you on these things, Erick? I do these body skills, I teach these body skills, I am friends or acquaintences with a number of world-class experts who do and teach these things.... why am I going to go through some silliness using long words and high math, just to give some dignity to a theory that is simply wrong. It's like you asking me prove that the moon is not made out of green cheese (I can't.... but I know it's not).
Quote:
Since I, and most of those here, do have to rotate our limbs to move about, it may have some relevance to the discussion of basic body skills that you have not, so far, demonstrated to be worthless to consider. You have not shown how your "stored" energy is accomplished without deforming the structure and thus resisting applied force, and risking injury. You have even waved away O Sensei's direct statements about non-resistance as if they were of no importance.
Take a look at the videos of O-Sensei taking a push to his body.... his body deforms. He briefly "resists". Then you turn around and act like that 's totally impossible, according to the way YOU interpret Aikido, Erick.

O-Sensei, Master Sum, and many others, in static or quasi-static cases use their bodies like tensegrity structures. Yes, there is slight deformation and during that deformation, joints slightly rotate to accomodate the rotation, but you keep missing the point that I mention about mind-willed forces, pressures and tensions, and so forth. They're important points.

The real trick comes, as I have said a number of times in a number of threads, when someone begins to learn to use these forces through a tensegrity body for movement and effecting work (in the physics sense). But we're not at that level of discussion. And we're certainly not there as long as "teachers" defend exotic ad hoc theories ad infinitum.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2007, 09:33 AM   #200
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Because I don't agree with your "subtle distinctions", there must be something personally wrong with me?
Disagree with me. Heck, pummel me into the dirt, logically -- just don't misstate me. Simple request.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Why am I going to "reason" with you on these things, Erick?
Why, indeed? That would be a serious philosophical question. Which I think you just answered -- clearly.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Take a look at the videos of O-Sensei taking a push to his body.... his body deforms. He briefly "resists".
Then you turn around and act like that 's totally impossible, according to the way YOU interpret Aikido, Erick.
I merely apply what I have been told and shown to resolve some useful consistency between them. And I do not claim it is "impossible" to do the things done. I just think you are incorrect in asserting how they are or should be done in relation to aikido priinciples.

And thank you. For going on record, again, that O Sensei supposedly does "bounces" by resisting with kokyu. Courtesy examples, elsewhere:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ueshiba certainly displayed episodes of the exact same "resistance" (kokyu force displays) that you say he had nothing to do with.
And
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The main purpose is to teach someone how to use kokyu force, the essential method of movement/power in Aikido and most other Asian arts when done beyond the amateur level. Anything other than that practice is extraneous to a basic Kokyu-Tanden-ho.
.... It's the same basic practice, if you cut to the heart of the exercise. ...
Is it "resistance"? Sure. O'Sensei didn't develop his great physical strength by never using resistance to train with.... that's a completely absurd and off-base interpretation of "Aikido".

Personally, I don't use kokyu-training since I do essentially the same sort of training while standing on my legs (training them at the same time) and mixing in other elements.
In that same post, last quoted, { http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=365 } you actually gave Friday's depiction { http://www.neijia.com/KokyuHo.jpg } of the kokyu tanden ho mvovement, you recommended there, and that I described earlier at Ignatius' request. It even shows the same orientaiton of limb rotations that I talked about.

Now one of the following must therefore be true, either:

1) "Bounces" by resisting are part of proper aikido training and he lied that aikido is a principle of "absolute non-resistance;" or

2) "Bounces" are part of aikido, and he performed them without using any resistance; or

3) "Bounces" are a related function but not part of proper aikido training, however they are performed.

I personally woudl tend toward number 2, based on the physics and O Sensei's videos and statements. Ledyard Sensei in his post seems to me to lean toward the agnostic position of number three, in his direct experience of Saotome doing these things. I'll defer to him on that, in either event.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Take a look at the videos of O-Sensei taking a push to his body.... his body deforms. He briefly "resists".
Indisputably, O Sensei's body moves, a point that I maintained and you "resisted" some while back. As a courtesy:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
According to your self-styled rules, the demonstrations by Ueshiba, where someone pushed on him and he did not move, are "outside the boundaries of Aikido".
And
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Why did O-Sensei show so many demo's where he could not be moved?
And:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... early Asians weren't dumb. They didn't confuse simple mechanical forces with "Ki". So if a knowledgeable Asian says someone is not moving because of "Ki", then they mean something besides the forces.
Dan Harden was even more unequivocal in your defense:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
There are many videos of Ueshiba ... both absorbing force without moving, and rebounding that force back at the guy. ... His presence on tape, showing force absorption ... pretty much defines and solidifies everything Mike has been telling you.
The debate is in how he moves, and more particulalrly, whether he moves to deform his structure in resisting so as to "spring" back -- or moves in such a way to keep his structure from being deformed, and to magnify the force applied back to the attacker, or to dissipate it. In other words, what mechanical principle is operating -- that is the debate, and whether the mode of action you propose is within the training purposes of aikido.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... tensegrity body for movement
Ah, yes, well, that (tensegrity = discontinuous compression spaceframes) is certainly an "improvement" (cough) over angular momentum -- in terms of common knowledge More to the point, irrelevant. Tensegrity is structural means, not a mechanical principle. Tensegrity structures obey the same mechanical dynamic principles as anything else.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido Transmission and Class Size Kevin Leavitt General 30 03-02-2007 10:14 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:27 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate