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Old 07-13-2007, 10:27 AM   #1426
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thanks Mike.

Correction: My post should say Villabrille-Largusa Kali. Sorry about that.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:05 AM   #1427
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
One of the things that I'm curious about is how much of the Danzan Ryu syllabus was influenced by the fact that it was developed in Hawaii.
Hi Tim,

I had forgotten that it was developed in Hawaii - that probably explains it, given all the cross-fertilization that you mentioned.

Josh
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:06 PM   #1428
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
One thing I noticed about that picture, Mike, is that the pick is going between the two straps that hold up the vase. I wonder if the straps are working partly like a tourniquette, given the amount of weight presumably being suspended from them. You can see in the second picture that the pick is going through an area where the straps are putting enough pressure on the arm to displace some flesh. In other words, would there have been blood if he just jammed the pick into his arm without the vase? Or if the pick was either distal or proximal to the straps?

Josh
Virtually all over the world you can find shamanic rituals which mortification practices take place with identical result. I have pictures of Taiwanese shaman piercing their bodies with iron spikes. Not only is there no blood, but the wounds are healed very quickly with no ill effect... These folks use trance type technique to achieve this but there's no reason that other methods could not be used to achieve the same skill while maintaining something closer to normal consciousness. I'm sure that's what you are looking at here.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:25 PM   #1429
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Virtually all over the world you can find shamanic rituals which mortification practices take place with identical result. I have pictures of Taiwanese shaman piercing their bodies with iron spikes. Not only is there no blood, but the wounds are healed very quickly with no ill effect... These folks use trance type technique to achieve this but there's no reason that other methods could not be used to achieve the same skill while maintaining something closer to normal consciousness. I'm sure that's what you are looking at here.
Hi George: This sort of control is considered a quintessential part of the whole qi-paradigm. Body-Mind. Add to that the actual exhibited strength (look back at some previous posts I've made where one of half-dozen defining characteristics of ki/qi is "skin that is difficult to lacertate or tear") and a nice part of the whole picture of "ki" resolves itself.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:19 PM   #1430
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You know, David. Seriously. You should quit while you're behind. Anyone with a moderate understanding of Chinese martial arts or Asian martial arts in general has written you off long since. In some way, each one of your posts is trying to disparage me personally, but the reverse happens when you talk about things that you clearly don't know.
Gotta agree. But then Mike, you're arguing with a guy who posited that Aikido people really could take swords away from swordsmen, which is about where I tuned out. Add the whole toddler thing and it's over. I thought this thread was long over, but it seems to have resumed it's former shape; some guy who doesn't know what you're talking about, but acting like he's coming off as more knowledgeable. I must say, it seems to be a successful mix of ingredients for keeping a thread going forever.

I'll make one comment before finding better things to do, but the kind of movement Mike, Dan, Rob(tm) talk about is simply not natural. Natural movement evolved to conserve calories. If I can pick up an object mostly with arm motion, that's what I do because it costs me less than using my whole body. Using my whole body to do something I can do with a part is not natural. If the load increases beyond what I can do locally, I involve more of my body naturally, in the most energy efficient manner. The more I practice, the more energy efficient I become, whether running, throwing bales of hay, etc. An elite runner is more efficient than I am at running, and old farmhand is more efficient at throwing hay bales. That's the way we're wired: practice makes us economical and efficient. The Nepalese example or whatever is also a matter of conserving energy and being efficient. None of it is the same as this martial movement, the purpose of which is specific to martial usage, at the expense of "natural" calorie efficiency. It uses more energy than needed, to accomplish a martial purpose. Period, end of story. All talk about "natural" is an immediate three strikes you're out, you don't know this stuff.

If anyone wants to pervert some definition of "natural" to better fit their view, the bottom line is that unless they can actually do what Mike, Dan, Rob(tm) can do, it's empty talk. Which, not coincidentally, is why this thread is so long. But there's the occasional 1% of interesting material, so it's good that it keeps going. Carry on.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:29 PM   #1431
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
I'll make one comment before finding better things to do, but the kind of movement Mike, Dan, Rob(tm) talk about is simply not natural. Natural movement evolved to conserve calories. If I can pick up an object mostly with arm motion, that's what I do because it costs me less than using my whole body. Using my whole body to do something I can do with a part is not natural. If the load increases beyond what I can do locally, I involve more of my body naturally, in the most energy efficient manner. The more I practice, the more energy efficient I become, whether running, throwing bales of hay, etc. An elite runner is more efficient than I am at running, and old farmhand is more efficient at throwing hay bales. That's the way we're wired: practice makes us economical and efficient. The Nepalese example or whatever is also a matter of conserving energy and being efficient. None of it is the same as this martial movement, the purpose of which is specific to martial usage, at the expense of "natural" calorie efficiency. It uses more energy than needed, to accomplish a martial purpose. Period, end of story. All talk about "natural" is an immediate three strikes you're out, you don't know this stuff.
Good point. I've said things sort of along the lines that it's not really efficient, is awkward at first, etc., but you articulated it better than I ever have. Thanks.

Mike
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:17 PM   #1432
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

My citing of the Nepalese load-bearers wasn't really to discuss natural vs. unnatural movement, but simply to raise the question of how individuals learn to do body adjustments that might be considered unnatural because they must solve a specific problem that a body might not ordinarily be confronted by (such as carrying great weights, or maintaining an upright position in a lurching subway car). How is this information taught to others, if it is at all?

But how do you know that the internal mechinations used in this load-bearing activity -don't- have any potential martial applications?

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
The Nepalese example or whatever is also a matter of conserving energy and being efficient. None of it is the same as this martial movement, the purpose of which is specific to martial usage, at the expense of "natural" calorie efficiency. It uses more energy than needed, to accomplish a martial purpose. Period, end of story. All talk about "natural" is an immediate three strikes you're out, you don't know this stuff.

If anyone wants to pervert some definition of "natural" to better fit their view, the bottom line is that unless they can actually do what Mike, Dan, Rob(tm) can do, it's empty talk. Which, not coincidentally, is why this thread is so long. But there's the occasional 1% of interesting material, so it's good that it keeps going. Carry on.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 07-13-2007 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:34 PM   #1433
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
But how do you know that the internal mechinations used in this load-bearing activity -don't- have any potential martial applications?
Hi Cady:

I think I posted here (it may have been on a few other forums, too) within the last few years that jin (at least the ground jin) almost certainly derives from the same mechanics as weight-bearing-on-the-head. Of course it's not as efficient, since it doesn't have the length of a vertebra behind it in all directions, but the principle is the same, I would argue (fairly easy argument, if you think about it).

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:55 PM   #1434
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Re: Baseline skillset

Mike,
I remember that post, and that is pretty much what I was thinking as well.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 07-13-2007 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:29 PM   #1435
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
My citing of the Nepalese load-bearers wasn't really to discuss natural vs. unnatural movement, but simply to raise the question of how individuals learn to do body adjustments that might be considered unnatural because they must solve a specific problem that a body might not ordinarily be confronted by (such as carrying great weights, or maintaining an upright position in a lurching subway car). How is this information taught to others, if it is at all?

But how do you know that the internal mechinations used in this load-bearing activity -don't- have any potential martial applications?
Hi Cady,

I added your example because it is an example of natural movement, not unnatural movement. Over time the porters learned what was most efficient. "Load bearing" is a general concept that applies to many things, but just because it does, doesn't mean all things that it applies to are the same. If you put a weight on a taiji master's head, he would still walk with it differently because he uses his legs and torso differently, and it would not be as efficient since his movement is based on martial purpose and not energy efficiency. If he were standing still, it might be closer, but then it would be close for everyone; it's not exactly a very flexible or meaningful scenario to equate one thing with another.

I can't vouch for this guy's skills, but he shows clear examples of movement that is not natural in any way, and has to be deliberately learned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIcstWYHW5w

In the opening he explains not to focus on the shoulder muscles to raise the arms, which would be the natural way, at 3:26 he shows exaggerated motion of the torso to move the hand, etc. This is the *kind* of thing under discussion, things that go on inside the body that are not usually visible by outward appearance, that can't be learned unless someone really shows you, that can be taken to very advanced levels of conditioning and usage - and not a lick of it is in any way natural, childlike, or something that will just happen by itself via endless repetition of other movements.

Anything to do with "natural" is a non-starter. That's my 2 cents, I won't get sucked into endless side topics and banter, it's well over my patience threshold.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:28 PM   #1436
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
I can't vouch for this guy's skills, but he shows clear examples of movement that is not natural in any way, and has to be deliberately learned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIcstWYHW5w
Good example of why it's not natural. Not that I fully agree with him, BTW (not to argue; just to set a limit to agreeing with that sort of movement). His explanation of the abdominal muscles pulling the back muscles and then raising the arms is in the right direction, but if that's all there was to it, it would be highly inefficient, as you're indicating, Pete.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:09 PM   #1437
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Re: Baseline skillset

Pete touched on a topic I frequently discuss in-house with those who are of the aiki persuasion who always ask what "power" has to do with Aiki at all?.
Why Power building?

The power in Kicks punches and the ability to withstand throw attempts is clear enough for most who have felt it. But what isn't clear for many I have met was where and how it can make aiki happen? Where and how does it enable an increased sensitivity, -not the fuity B.S. sensitivity- I mean real ability to read and react in a freestlye environment. How does the resolving of in/yo in oneself produce aiki in us? How does that effect.....affect those who come in contact with it? How and why does it make the body heavy and then amazingly light in motion-say floating off of uchi mata to re-engage and be heavy again? Why would that be two sides of the same coin in body conditioning?
Why does breath-power make the Japanese term "the living center" a reality? Why would it be meaningful to move your center, without moving. How is it moving? What is "it" moving? and can it be demonstrated and felt.
Most folks I have met still are stuck in the external mode of definitions offered for aiki. The all too typical turn-when-pushed or enter-when-pulled as the ideal. In my mind, they actually don't even know what they are saying as they are saying it. "Turning" is a whole, big, whopping idea in a single word. So is entering. And neither of which has to do with moving in any large way, though of course you can.
I only offer the questions to those who have started to recondition their bodies .To start to think of how the conditioning can manifest real-world, real-time, martial results. I do think you'de already have to be training this way to get a glimpse of the body connection being a sort of management-system in motion.

Last edited by DH : 07-13-2007 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:26 AM   #1438
Aran Bright
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
BTW, speaking of the fascia training as part of breathing exercises (and other things), it's common in a number of Asian disciplines and religious regimens, showing how important these body skills were. In Buddhism and martial-Buddhist training, the idea of strengthening the fascia part of the ki (ki is a number of things; the fascia stuff is only part of it) was important and often shown only to a few proven people within a discipline. Here's some pictures of a Danzan Ryu adept showing part of his accomplishments in the "secrets":

http://www.neijia.com/ICEPICK1.JPG
http://www.neijia.com/ICEPICK2.JPG

FWIW

Mike
I actually saw a demonstration of someone putting a steel bar through their arm exactly the same as the photo. Then a leather strap placed over the bar. He then lifted a pile of house tiles and his partner, his son, did the ' and now I'll break them with the sledge hammer' thing.

At the time he talked about the importance of ki and that he felt no pain as long as he used ki. There was no blood until he took it out, and then not much after that either. He actually said that he ended up in hospital last time as he punctured a vein. Maybe showmanship, I don't know.

Thing was he was an australian, seemed like he had been involved in the koryu arts for years, rough as guts (as we say) and generally pretty scruffy. Thing is, if that is some test of real ki skill then I guess I have to review my opinion of that guy. And next time I see him ask a lot more questions.

http://brisbaneaikido.com

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Old 07-16-2007, 07:56 AM   #1439
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Aran Bright wrote: View Post
I actually saw a demonstration of someone putting a steel bar through their arm exactly the same as the photo. Then a leather strap placed over the bar. He then lifted a pile of house tiles and his partner, his son, did the ' and now I'll break them with the sledge hammer' thing.

At the time he talked about the importance of ki and that he felt no pain as long as he used ki. There was no blood until he took it out, and then not much after that either. He actually said that he ended up in hospital last time as he punctured a vein. Maybe showmanship, I don't know.

Thing was he was an australian, seemed like he had been involved in the koryu arts for years, rough as guts (as we say) and generally pretty scruffy. Thing is, if that is some test of real ki skill then I guess I have to review my opinion of that guy. And next time I see him ask a lot more questions.
Well, I know guys who can break coconuts with their hands, puncture their skin as you described, break bricks, etc., but they're more demonstrating "street tricks" than showing that they've got any real ki.

There was a book called "Beyond Biofeedback" by Elmer and Alyce Green of the Meininger Institute (which is sort of New Agey) many years ago. They did empirical studies on 3 guys: Swami Rama (a yogi), Rolling Thunder (an Indian Shaman... guy seemed like a waste of time to me), and Jack somebody. Jack had been injured in a motorcycle accident overseas in WWII and he had some sort of innate way of controlling pain and stopping bleeding. He demonstrated to lots of people the piercing sort of trick and he could close up the wound and control the blood mentally pretty good. Technically, that would of course be termed as "using his qi" because the feat is certainly what would fall into the purview of qi/ki and that's an example of the body mechanisms that are involved in the actual qi/ki mechanics. But Jack whats-his-name could only demonstrate this trick, so it wouldn't be the full body-skills arena that would be considered martial qi/ki.

Remember the example of Koichi Tohei showing that even though some Buddhist monks practiced their qi/ki, he could push them over easily. Well, they may well have developed some aspects of ki and better than Tohei, for all we know, but they didn't know how to practice the martial usage of jin/kokyu-power, so their martial powers weren't complete (this is not always the case, since the martial skills are/were common in many Buddhist Temples but reserved for only select people).

I listed the martial skills/abilities that are commonly associated with ki/qi (maybe I did it early in this thread) and generally, someone is going to be able demonstrate all of these skills. Problem is that there are always people who do hokey physical tricks that rely simply on normal conditioning and physics who claim to be showing ki/qi and it's not really the same animal, or it's just a limited version of the animal. I'd have to see what someone could really do before I'd jump to conclusions.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:58 AM   #1440
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Speaking of that Meininger Institute book, the common thread between Swami Rama, "Rolling Thunder", and Jack was that they all had demonstrable abilities of using voluntary controls over normally autonomic parts of the body. That seems to sum up a lot of the intriguing stuff, right there.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:20 PM   #1441
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
[snip]
There was a book called "Beyond Biofeedback" by Elmer and Alyce Green of the Meininger Institute [snip]
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Biofeed...4609918&sr=8-1

Menninger Foundation.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:30 PM   #1442
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Menninger it is. Picked the wrong mental choice. Prices are good. Unbelievably good. Last time I looked that book up on Amazon and Alibris, it was going for $40 minimum. I think the "Jack" guy is "Jack Schwartz", but I still can't find my copy that I thought I had, dangit.


Mike
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:22 AM   #1443
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We were just talking about this in the dojo the other day. It really does get weird here doesn't it. Over the years I most certainly have talked about things;both some of the ways to do certain things and some times the results and given descriptions. It's pointless to describe actual details that even folks who come and train here have difficulty with one-on-one. I can talk about lets say, central pivot all the day long. So what! I have yet to meet guys who can do it well after several trips here.
Hmmm ... so, the saying "when they push, turn. When they pull, enter" ... that's all about the central pivot, right?

Mark
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:00 PM   #1444
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi Mark
I'm in Bar Harbor at an internet cafe while my wife is shopping

My point was really addressing the typical misunderstanding of turn-when-pushed, enter-when-pulled (lets call it TWP/EWP) . The idea itself is an external fighting principle that can be managed externally or managed internally. Internally it can done with aspects that can be both capturing or disruptive in a far more efficient manner than external methods. OK, to be honest I think there are things that can done with an internally driven CP that simply cannot be duplicated with an external mode of movement

So, to answer your question-The central pivot, and the proper support of it, addresses a beginning stage of getting that idea (TWP/EWP) to work in a far more efficient manner involving internal movement as its source. As you know, it is hard enough to start to get the body to even think of moving this way as it isn't natural at all (no matter what Dave says), and quite another to build the necessary connections to support such movement. No trained connections, no trained support,..... you have an empty theory.
FWIW, there are several stages of body conditioning that support the body movement involving C.P. . You were in a room with several people who were doing different things internally, with different results to effect that same exercise goals... "outcome".
Some with more demonstrable results than others. Some of the aspects you "felt" in the twin sticks play were from what I do with CP to handle instantaneous loads and create immediate openings with no slack or lag time in weapons work. Because of the nature of the connections, it is very fast, when it is fast, and even fast when its slow... But there are better ways.
Again, it is a movement "principle" that without years of internal connections is an empty theory.
So, that's just a limited start up way to begin to access and use some of the connections you are striving for. The real fun starts later when you involve more of your body tied to a central "point." It's more powerful, mobile, and responsive than the pivot... and muuch harder for someone to capture and play you with.

Last edited by DH : 07-17-2007 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:39 PM   #1445
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Mark
I'm in Bar Harbor at an internet cafe while my wife is shopping
Wow, and you're online reading and answering questions. That's dedication. Or is that boredom?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
My point was really addressing the typical misunderstanding of turn-when-pushed, enter-when-pulled (lets call it TWP/EWP) . The idea itself is an external fighting principle that can be managed externally or managed internally. Internally it can done with aspects that can be both capturing or disruptive in a far more efficient manner than external methods. OK, to be honest I think there are things that can done with an internally driven CP that simply cannot be duplicated with an external mode of movement

So, to answer your question-The central pivot, and the proper support of it, addresses a beginning stage of getting that idea (TWP/EWP) to work in a far more efficient manner involving internal movement as its source. As you know, it is hard enough to start to get the body to even think of moving this way as it isn't natural at all (no matter what Dave says), and quite another to build the necessary connections to support such movement. No trained connections, no trained support,..... you have an empty theory.
FWIW, there are several stages of body conditioning that support the body movement involving C.P. . You were in a room with several people who were doing different things internally, with different results to effect that same exercise goals... "outcome".
Some with more demonstrable results than others. Some of the aspects you "felt" in the twin sticks play were from what I do with CP to handle instantaneous loads and create immediate openings with no slack or lag time in weapons work. Because of the nature of the connections, it is very fast, when it is fast, and even fast when its slow... But there are better ways.
Again, it is a movement "principle" that without years of internal connections is an empty theory.
So, that's just a limited start up way to begin to access and use some of the connections you are striving for. The real fun starts later when you involve more of your body tied to a central "point." It's more powerful, mobile, and responsive than the pivot... and muuch harder for someone to capture and play you with.
Hmmm ... okay, it seems that I have a little ways to go before understanding all of that. But it's a start. Thanks.

Mark
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:13 PM   #1446
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

You saw the "frowny face" after the mention of his wife "shopping," didn't you, Mark? Obviously, Dan is distracting himself from the thought of impending credit card bills...
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:35 AM   #1447
Al Gutierrez
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Re: Baseline skillset

Dan, if you have a moment, could you respond to my questions in the Understanding Fascia thread?

I'm really curious if you'd be willing to post some clips of the exercises you describe here - for example the twin sticks mentioned just above, or the wall pushing exercises you descibed earlier. This would be quite helpful in helping to visualize and put into context what your describing.

Many thanks,

A.G.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:39 AM   #1448
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
You saw the "frowny face" after the mention of his wife "shopping," didn't you, Mark? Obviously, Dan is distracting himself from the thought of impending credit card bills...
LOL! Well, since he didn't say it was a major city, I figured how bad could it be?

Although, for all I know, Bar Harbor could be some upscale shopping extravaganza in a major metropolitan district. eek.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:47 AM   #1449
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Al Gutierrez wrote: View Post
Dan, if you have a moment, could you respond to my questions in the Understanding Fascia thread?

I'm really curious if you'd be willing to post some clips of the exercises you describe here - for example the twin sticks mentioned just above, or the wall pushing exercises you descibed earlier. This would be quite helpful in helping to visualize and put into context what your describing.

Many thanks,

A.G.
Not to answer for Dan, but this is my personal take from experience and being a beginner. Videos won't help a new person at all. The only thing videos might accomplish is to jog the mental and muscle memory of a student who's already had some hands on training.

So, no, they aren't helpful at all, either with visuals (how do you get internal actions into a video?) or context (how do you get hands on feeling of this stuff into words?). I know that all sounds uncomforting, but unfortunately, it's the truth.

But, don't take just my word for it. Ask the others who have been there, too.

Mark
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:59 AM   #1450
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

In complete agreement with Mark. Basically, to train this particular physical skill you need hands on, at some point, preferably for a sustained period of time.

My own personal hurdle is that what little hands on I have was some time ago and too brief. And my schedule recently hasn't allowed me to change that. Yet.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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