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Old 07-03-2007, 11:33 AM   #1176
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
And he told me that I "pretty well understand" or "pretty completely understand" (daibu wakaru) aikido. But no one listens to a thing I say.

The reason being you still havent, even since the e-budo days, come up with a competent description of the body mechanics we talk about.
Just to clarify, my statement was in reply to Mike's statement that I am probably used to groups of open-mouthed beginners listening to and believing what I say.

And I said no one listens to what I say.

And that does not primarily refer to internet discussion groups. It applies to anyone with aikido exposure--especially those with some kind of stature in an organization. People who have been uchi deshi to some caucasian guy in the US, etc.

Those with some position in a hierarchy, etc.

And don't mistake it for a complaint. As I said, I'd far rather be underestimated than fully understood.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 07-03-2007 at 11:36 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:43 AM   #1177
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
As I said, I'd far rather be underestimated than fully understood.
Well, this is really just an aside, but I'm genuinely curious about that.

The logical implication of your statement is that you would *not* want to be both fully understood and properly estimated on that basis. In that case, you would actually prefer to confuse and obfuscate someone's perception of you -- in order to ensure that he continue to underestimate you. That is a conceptually coherent position, but it is a somewhat strange one to publicly profess. On the other hand, it seems *in itself* to help accomplish its twin goals, which is nice. Am I just misreading you?

-ck
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:43 AM   #1178
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
A gin and tonic is 'just' a drink with alcohol, water, and carbonation -- but that does not make a 'rum and coke' a gin and tonic.
You know, I've made exactly that point with Mike. Sake is not vodka is not whiskey, but Mike says they're all essentially the same.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
But the point stands that a gin and tonic can be made from a variety of gins and a variety of tonics. You could even probably make a drink that was, *in spirit* essentially a G&T with an even wider range of ingredients -- but Coca Cola would not be one of them (even though it might be okay to use Pepsi in a version of 'rum & coke').
Sure. But just movement and qi do not add up to reeling silk or aiki age or kokyu. Did you read Mike's detailed scathing of Chris earlier when he claimed that his Japanese koryu employs silk reeling? "Impossible," Mike (essentially) said. It has to be precisely the thing or you're fooling yourself.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
Why not just entertain the notion that there may be two related but non-trivially different styles of movement designated by the terms 'reeling silk' and 'pulling silk'?
I accepted that Mike meant exactly that. It was Rob that pointed out that they are different things--though I've never heard of "silk pulling" as a concept in Japanese arts...

So maybe you're mistaking the one who differed on this point?

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
It makes it sound as though you are *not* genuinely interested in information which *is* being communicated.
Some communicate, but Mike tends mostly to self-glorify and my earlier post delineates the proportions of intent by which he goes about it.

I'm always interested in honest exchange. I've just never found it from Mike.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:47 AM   #1179
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
...you would actually prefer to confuse and obfuscate someone's perception of you -- in order to ensure that he continue to underestimate you...Am I just misreading you?
I have no intetntion to confuse or obfuscate, myself, but if someone wants to dismiss what I honestly say and engineer a diminshed image of me for his own self-satisfaction and self-glorification, that's fine with me. I would rather he underestimate me than that he fully expect my range.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 07-03-2007, 11:55 AM   #1180
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sure. But just movement and qi do not add up to reeling silk or aiki age or kokyu. Did you read Mike's detailed scathing of Chris earlier when he claimed that his Japanese koryu employs silk reeling? "Impossible," Mike (essentially) said. It has to be precisely the thing or you're fooling yourself.
I thought Mike was trying to be precise. I read him as saying that *based on his reading of Chris' past statements* he thought it unlikely that Chris was also already engaged in a full-blown 'silk-reeling' practice. He laid out a specific line of reasoning to back that assertion, and I saw no concrete challenge to that reasoning (from anyone). You seem to have called foul on Mike for 'even attacking someone who wanted to be your friend', but I just see a clinical dissection of mechanics. There is an actual dialogue about concrete mechanics underlying all this, and the politics and personalities are just a confusing overlay.

Quote:
I accepted that Mike meant exactly that. It was Rob that pointed out that they are different things--though I've never heard of "silk pulling" as a concept in Japanese arts...
I read Rob as reminding you of what Mike had actually said. If you accepted that Mike had said they were different, why would Rob need to point it out to you?

Quote:
So maybe you're mistaking the one who differed on this point?
Maybe so, although I still don't see it. If you have always understood that both Mike and Rob were saying reeling & pulling are different, then where did the disagreement ever come into play. I only even spoke up because you seemed to be saying that Mike was using 'reeling silk' and 'pulling silk' as synonyms. It seems like you want to nail Mike for a false step, either in etiquette or terminology. Like I said, it's fun to watch the banging and bashing. I'm just offering a line call from my vantage point in the bleachers.

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Old 07-03-2007, 11:57 AM   #1181
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I would rather he underestimate me than that he fully expect my range.
So you are talking about a 'fighting tactic' rather than a general principle of discourse, right? I think that answers my question, and I do not mean that snidely.

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:28 PM   #1182
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I thought Mike was trying to be precise.
Then why throw in the "silk pulling" reference at all? That just muddies the water.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
There is an actual dialogue about concrete mechanics underlying all this, and the politics and personalities are just a confusing overlay.
And I see more of that from Mike than from Rob or Dan. (Far more.) As Chris said, Mike just seems to like to disagree. And Mike has basically admitted that more than once. He needs the human attention.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I read Rob as reminding you of what Mike had actually said. If you accepted that Mike had said they were different, why would Rob need to point it out to you?
No, I read that Mike had said that they were the same. Why would he bring "silk pulling" into a discussion of "silk reeling"? The whole question was whether Japanese arts use silk reeling.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I only even spoke up because you seemed to be saying that Mike was using 'reeling silk' and 'pulling silk' as synonyms.
No, I thought Mike was trying to pass off "silk pulling" as "silk reeling." It was a late comment in a series of exchanges over whether SR is part of Japanese arts and he came in and said "Aikido uses silk pulling." I still think he was trying to appear "right" when there was no basis for it. I maintain that silk reeling is a very highly refined Chinese method with a recognizable movement and that this "method" has never been used in Japanese arts. To which Mike replied, "Aikido uses silk pulling" with no indication that he means anything different by it at all.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
It seems like you want to nail Mike for a false step, either in etiquette or terminology.
Well, Mike likes to pick nits and dismiss anyone's statement on the slightest ground, by twisting what you say if necessary, by restating what he has said so that your reply to what he really said doesn't apply to what he now says...

And he does this to everyone--except Rob, because he's afraid Rob's teacher will embarrass him. So he is always respectful to Rob. But he sees Dan as more on his level (though he would never admit that). At least he's afraid the readers of the forum will perceive Dan to be his equal and so he really has to work on that.

Me, he just thinks he can push around. Let him think it. Every front has a back.

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
Like I said, it's fun to watch the banging and bashing.
Well, it is all in fun, after all. I don't hate Mike. He's just so ...whatever you'd call him....I just have to give him a little trouble now and then.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:30 PM   #1183
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
So you are talking about a 'fighting tactic' rather than a general principle of discourse, right? I think that answers my question, and I do not mean that snidely.
Well, I'd just say I'd rather surprise someone by turning out to have more than they thought. For what that's worth.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:41 PM   #1184
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Then why throw in the "silk pulling" reference at all? That just muddies the water.
<snip>
No, I read that Mike had said that they were the same. Why would he bring "silk pulling" into a discussion of "silk reeling"? The whole question was whether Japanese arts use silk reeling.
Okay, you made me go back and look it up. Here's the quotation:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Who cares? The movements in Aikido employ pulling silk, which is just a variant of ki/kokyu as is reeling silk.
First, it seems self-evident from that sentence that Mike is distinguishing reeling and pulling. The phrase 'as is' gives it away.

Second, as to why: *if you read that a distinction is being drawn* then you recognize that Mike is making a statement about the mechanics he views to be operative in Aikido -- as well as making a precise statement about the relationship of those mechanics to the general discussion. It only 'muddies the water' if the waters are primarily a debate about who said what, rather than a debate about mechanics.

Quote:
No, I thought Mike was trying to pass off "silk pulling" as "silk reeling." It was a late comment in a series of exchanges over whether SR is part of Japanese arts and he came in and said "Aikido uses silk pulling." I still think he was trying to appear "right" when there was no basis for it. I maintain that silk reeling is a very highly refined Chinese method with a recognizable movement and that this "method" has never been used in Japanese arts. To which Mike replied, "Aikido uses silk pulling" with no indication that he means anything different by it at all.
Even looking back at what he actually said, do you still hold this position? If this was -- from the very beginning -- an actual substantive comment and not the attributed foul debate tactic, would that change your analysis of the situation? If not, why not?

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:45 PM   #1185
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, I'd just say I'd rather surprise someone by turning out to have more than they thought. For what that's worth.
Fair enough, and probably a sentiment many people share. I certainly understand why one would want to avoid the error of overplaying his hand (and therefore turning out to have less than represented). But what does surprising people have to do with making headway in a discussion?

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:48 PM   #1186
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
Even looking back at what he actually said, do you still hold this position? If this was -- from the very beginning -- an actual substantive comment and not the attributed foul debate tactic, would that change your analysis of the situation? If not, why not?
I think he's blurring the differences to support his position that Chinese and Japanese arts are essentially the same. I don't know how long you've been following these discussions, but it goes way, way back. My position is that the JMA and CMA begin with the human body and nervous system and that they both developed into substantially different end states. Somewhat like saying AC electricity is "the same" as DC electricity or not. I say they have the same base, but that they're quite different in the end result.

Mike's basically saying they're identical.

So whatever he says is aimed at that end result, supported by the context of everything else he's been saying along this line for months and months on end. And I think in the silk pulling/silk reeling statement he's, again, blurring the ideas together to appear "right" on what he posits. That's just how I see it.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:50 PM   #1187
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I certainly understand why one would want to avoid the error of overplaying his hand (and therefore turning out to have less than represented). But what does surprising people have to do with making headway in a discussion?
Assuming there's any chance of "making headway" in the discussion, there's no point to it. I'm just saying that if someone is determined to dismiss what I have to say based on my fairly long history and some pretty deep experience, then so be it. Let them dismiss it. You can't stop them from doing that. And if they have that kind of mindset, then I'd rather them keep an underestimation of me in case we should ever meet.

Clearer?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:59 PM   #1188
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Assuming there's any chance of "making headway" in the discussion, there's no point to it
Well, I for one would not even be reading it -- and certainly would not now be vaguely taking part in it -- if I thought there was no point at all. I would think a discussion only has 'no point to it' if there is *not* a chance of making headway. If there is no point, why be a part of the discussion?

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Old 07-03-2007, 01:08 PM   #1189
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
If there is no point, why be a part of the discussion?
Assuming there's any chance of making headway in the discussion, there's no point in being underestimated.

Is what I was saying.

But when someone (and who could that be? Who could it be?...) has proven over time that there is no chance of ever making headway with him, I'd rather be underestimated.

Still, this is a bigger discussion than just that small aspect of it, so on it goes.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:21 PM   #1190
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Assuming there's any chance of making headway in the discussion, there's no point in being underestimated.

Is what I was saying.
Okay, I see what you are saying. What you wrote was genuinely ambiguous. Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I'm glad I took the time to understand your actual intention rather than sticking with my first reading.

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:00 PM   #1191
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
. But just movement and qi do not add up to reeling silk or aiki age or kokyu. Did you read Mike's detailed scathing of Chris earlier when he claimed that his Japanese koryu employs silk reeling? "Impossible," Mike (essentially) said. It has to be precisely the thing or you're fooling yourself.
But go back and look at what I said. You're misconstruing it. Chris posted on AikiWeb that he got caught out with a frontal-jin situation when he met up with Rob and Akuzawa. That tells me immediately what some of the limits to his actual jin abilities are (and BTW, when I met Rob, he showed me this frontal push thing, so I know exactly what Chris ran into a problem with). So the actual jin understanding wasn't there, regardless of anything else. To do reeling silk movement, jin has to power the movement as an essential cog that can't be missing or it's not reeling silk. That's inescapable and it's written in a lot of places, too, so it's certainly no personal take of mine.

So there are the factors. You tell me.... could Chris have really been doing "reeling silk" exercises, given the critical factors I just laid out? If so, how could that possibly be????

But the point was not to denigrate Chris... it was simply to caution him that a statement he'd made about doing reeling silk exercises already had to be logicially incorrect. I could have shut up and let it pass, but Chris seems dedicated enough that I thought I'd throw it out there. He took it badly, it seems..... but he's way ahead of the game for now knowing this datum, so I don't feel bad for telling him.

Regards,


Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 07-03-2007 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:29 PM   #1192
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I thought Mike was trying to be precise. I read him as saying that *based on his reading of Chris' past statements* he thought it unlikely that Chris was also already engaged in a full-blown 'silk-reeling' practice. He laid out a specific line of reasoning to back that assertion, and I saw no concrete challenge to that reasoning (from anyone).
Look, I'm not going to qualify every comment I make with a full exposition so that Mike Sigman can give me a pat on the head. I did point out that Mike has never seen my sword style, ever. I very well may be wrong, and I may not be in a position to make the statement that I did, but Mike is in LESS of a position to say that I am flat out *wrong*. He could have come forward and said something like, "Hmm, gosh Chirs I'd be shocked if you had progressed enough to have mastered silk reeling and even more shocked that a Japanese sword art would have the practice. I'd love to see it if it were true, but I'm pretty skeptical..." That would have been perfectly reasonable, and a reasonable place to begin a discussion. It was not my claim that I was a master of silk reeling or that what my sword line did was identical to silk reeling in all of its detail. Instead though, I am simply wrong. Now, for Mike to be able to state that with the certainty that he did, he would need to have some level of familiarity with my sword art. He does not, there are 12 of us in the US (only about 7 of us know the kata), and the kata in question are from our inside series that are not generally performed outside of the school. If what he meant by 'wrong' was not in a position to comment, that's different, and I did ask what he considered to be the minimum level of mastery over a subject he considered a minimum in order to comment, so far I have not seen a direct reply other than to offer my detailed description up for his vetting. I'm not going to play that game. Why? Because he gets offended when people take the same tactic with him (wrt his Aikido training or familiarity with Japanese budo, and I don't count karate in that) and it is suddenly a personal attack. Another reason? I have never seen anyone meet a level of clarity such that he conceded their point or acknowledged the legitimacy of their view, even when they are agreeing with his position. This is the kind of relationship I would expect in a teacher-student, master-disciple relationship. My teachers do this a lot in class, they ask someone what they are doing in order to gage their comprehension of that thing. I have no problem with it there, because we have a unified terminology and the benefit of tactile feedback and there is the possibility and expectation that you may be correct. I have never seen anyone (with the exception of the mighty Bruce) attempt to take that same tone with an entire forum. It is not acceptable. A lot of people have this same view, but are too scared or too classy to say anything about it on the forums (I know, because I get emails and PMs from people all over the country after these kinds of interactions thanking me for saying what I did). I have attempted to point out inconsistencies in what Mike expects of others and what he considers acceptable for himself, tried humor, I've even paraphrased him back to himself (I'm even wrong then!). I simply do not understand the rules of discourse he wants to use (except that of master-student, and I'm not willing to agree to those rules). I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest when I say that it's genuinely too bad. I like to learn, I like to discuss and I'm about as far from an Aikikai party-liner as you're likely to find, but at the end of the day, it seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

The fact that David is arguing on my behalf should tell you something, it's like when Greenpeace and the Teamsters were marching arm in arm against the WTO.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:51 PM   #1193
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
an Aikikai party-liner
lol
Never heard that before.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:07 PM   #1194
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Look, I'm not going to qualify every comment I make with a full exposition so that Mike Sigman can give me a pat on the head.

<snip everything>
Chris, since you're replying to me, I will respond -- even though I think your quarrel is with Mike.

What about just going back to the line of logic about "essential cog that can't be missing" in Mike's last post on the subject? I don't know you, and I have no reason whatsoever to have an opinion about your sword ryu, your knowledge of it, or your overall skill. I think Mike is trying to provide information about the scope and range of what he has referred to as 'reeling silk' in order to help you perform any such exercises which might or might not be in your abstract curriculum -- *from his perspective*. I thought he basically said, "I'll wait and see -- " on the basis that your descriptions of other things gave him pause.

All I was saying, in the post to which you responded, is that from my perspective Mike *is* trying to discuss mechanics rather than styles, schools, personalities, etc. Everything you just said notwithstanding, I still don't see you presenting a direct counter-argument. I don't know if you are 'right' or 'wrong' in this argument, but I certainly see the disconnect. I see why Mike's line of argument might annoy or even offend you; and I see why he might label your line of argument as avoiding what he claims is the meat of the issue.

Quote:
The fact that David is arguing on my behalf should tell you something, it's like when Greenpeace and the Teamsters were marching arm in arm against the WTO.
Sure, 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend.' or something like that. What David and you arguing together tells me is that there is sufficient political motivation for two parties who fundamentally disagree to take the same side. You and David seem to disagree utterly on technical questions, so both of you disagreeing with Mike about this doesn't contribute any meaningful data one way or the other with regard to his technical correctness. It's not like you have some point of agreement beyond the opinion that Mike is behaving badly, do you? David says, "No silk reeling in JMA." You say, "Silk reeling in JMA."

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Old 07-03-2007, 03:28 PM   #1195
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So there are the factors. You tell me.... could Chris have really been doing "reeling silk" exercises, given the critical factors I just laid out? If so, how could that possibly be????
Well, to me it means that silk reeling is not part of his art and probably not part of any Japanese art, though I'd have to know more about what Dan learned.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But the point was not to denigrate Chris... it was simply to caution him that a statement he'd made about doing reeling silk exercises already had to be logicially incorrect.
I knew that, Mike. I was just joshing you a little...and otherwise.

Best to you and happy 4th.

David

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Old 07-03-2007, 03:29 PM   #1196
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Chhi'mčd Künzang wrote: View Post
I think Mike is trying to provide information about the scope and range of what he has referred to as 'reeling silk' in order to help you perform any such exercises which might or might not be in your abstract curriculum -- *from his perspective*. I thought he basically said, "I'll wait and see -- " on the basis that your descriptions of other things gave him pause.

All I was saying, in the post to which you responded, is that from my perspective Mike *is* trying to discuss mechanics rather than styles, schools, personalities, etc. Everything you just said notwithstanding, I still don't see you presenting a direct counter-argument. I don't know if you are 'right' or 'wrong' in this argument, but I certainly see the disconnect. I see why Mike's line of argument might annoy or even offend you; and I see why he might label your line of argument as avoiding what he claims is the meat of the issue.
Tell ya what, I'll make a deal. When Mike describes why what we're doing in my kata isn't *like* silk reeling in full detail, I'll offer my full description. That's fair right? See what I'm getting at? Why is the onus always on everyone but Mike? I can't comment on silk reeling because I don't know enough about it, but Mike can comment on my ryuha even though he's never seen it? No, I won't go along with those rules. Mike always phrases things as if he's just trying to help, like saving me time? I still don't know what that's about, but when the opportunity comes, he doesn't actually offer very much *here*. I've heard he's terribly generous with information in person, but that doesn't do me much good here. I was entirely serious when I said that I didn't know how to communicate effectively with him.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:04 PM   #1197
clwk
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Tell ya what, I'll make a deal. When Mike describes why what we're doing in my kata isn't *like* silk reeling in full detail, I'll offer my full description. That's fair right? See what I'm getting at? Why is the onus always on everyone but Mike?
Well, in this case the reason is that you are the one making a positive assertion. Since neither of you has full information, the onus is on you to reveal enough information to substantiate your claim. From a cryptographic perspective, there is probably some challenge-response protocol you could go through to publicly and securely prove your point. I read Mike as basically saying that you haven't provided the right responses to prove your case *without revealing more information*. One could argue that Ueshiba's Doha are a sort of cryptographic indicator where he tries to spell out what he knows without actually giving away any practical information.

Incidentally, if you succeed in proving your case, you disprove David's -- which would, ironically, curtail your brief alliance.

Quote:
I can't comment on silk reeling because I don't know enough about it, but Mike can comment on my ryuha even though he's never seen it?
He's just repudiating your weak claim, not your strong one. The strong claim would be to show your cards and *then* have the discussion. You could explain exactly why you think your claim is true, and then he could agree or not. And then you could either accept or reject the basis of his assessment, and you could go back and forth until you had some kind of agreement or could agree to disagree. It doesn't have to be a pout-fest on anyone's side.

Quote:
No, I won't go along with those rules. Mike always phrases things as if he's just trying to help, like saving me time? I still don't know what that's about, but when the opportunity comes, he doesn't actually offer very much *here*. I've heard he's terribly generous with information in person, but that doesn't do me much good here.
But those are two different issues. One is wanting to communicate *in order to learn*, and the other is not wanting to take the 'asymetrically lower position'. But that's implicitly the case when you ask a question.

Quote:
I was entirely serious when I said that I didn't know how to communicate effectively with him.
Well, I'm not a relationship counselor by day, but I guess you could take him at face value:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
While I am open to the idea (and probability) that some degree of six-harmonies movement remains (even vestigially) in Japanese martial arts, I'd question anyone that claimed them fairly closely in order to see whether they really knew them or not. It would be a breakthrough (in my explorations) to find someone in Japanese martial arts that really understood them because they're far more sophisticated than they appear on the surface. It would be social chat-level for me to just go "Oh, that's interesting" if someone made the claim.

I don't know if you followed the logic of what I said, but I'm pretty comfortable standing on it, Chris. If you want to probe it further, I can put you on the QiJin list provisionally and lay out the details. I'm not going to write that much just as an exercise for this forum, though, since it's not particularly of interest to most people doing Aikido.
You might not get to have it out 'here', but maybe that would meet the information-seeking and communication requirements your mentioned. I dont' know.

-ck
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:19 PM   #1198
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I did point out that Mike has never seen my sword style, ever. I very well may be wrong, and I may not be in a position to make the statement that I did, but Mike is in LESS of a position to say that I am flat out *wrong*.
Chris, I put my exact reasoning, which is based on your own posts, in my previous comment. I say I am in an exact position to make the comment I made. Notice that I didn't carry on, as you and David do, with the personality stuff (I'm not sure where you get the idea that you are somehow different from David in this regard). I gave a precise reasoning. Answer it, if you can rebutt it. If you can't withstand simple frontal jin then you don't have much jin: ergo, you could not be doing "reeling silk" since it takes extensive jin skills to do it correctly. It's *possible* that DR has some silk-reeling in it, but I don't know that... I just know that you personally are not in a position to credibly assert that it does, based on your own testimony.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:27 PM   #1199
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Tell ya what, I'll make a deal. When Mike describes why what we're doing in my kata isn't *like* silk reeling in full detail, I'll offer my full description. That's fair right?
You seem to wilfully miss the point. If you'd told me that you do Chen-style Taiji and you do reeling silk exercises, I'd have told you the same thing. It's logically impossible for you to know how to do reeling silk exercises (as you claimed in your post) and also to have not been able to handle simple frontal jin (as you posted in another post). You can huff and puff all you want, but that's the logic.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:15 PM   #1200
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

There is so much that I would like to say to clarify this line of discourse, but I just can't bring myself to. I don't think I have ever had so much trouble communicating with someone else on any forum. Hope everybody enjoyed the show.

Chris Moses
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