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Old 06-23-2007, 04:17 PM   #1051
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Is there any hope of getting some good exercises out of them without having had prior seminars with Mike Sigman?
No. That's why I quit selling them... I didn't feel like people were getting adequate results (videos made good money, though... but that wasn't why I put them out). Basically it boils down to the fact that someone has to show you and sort of chaperone you through a bit of a learning period. Books and videos just don't work *unless* you already have some idea of how to do the skills already.

Besides, those videos are over a decade old (the last set I did) and they're pretty outdated. I suggest just get one of them (#2) if someone is curious.

Best.

Mike
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:54 PM   #1052
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
To Jeremy H. and Mark M:

You seem to be implying that Dan's exercises are very similar to the Aunkai exercises. That is fine as far as it goes --- but how do they differ?

To Dan:Is it correct to assume that your last statement also means that power with a weapon is acquired faster through solo training that is not based on paired kata practice, than through a kata-based practice, such as TSKSR? If that is what you mean, have you subjected this approach to peer review --- perhaps by senior people in TSKSR? If so, what were their conclusions?

Sincerely,

Jim
Jim,
I never meant to imply that I met Dan. I hope to at some point.. My best guess from reading Dan's written stuff is that it's close but not the same.

In terms of generating power. If you know how to move with a weapon then from my limited experience, two hours with Ark in Tokyo and four with Rob here and practicing the Aunkai stuff as best as can remember. I am generating considerably more power with less effort than I was six months ago.

FWIW
Jeremy

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 06-23-2007, 08:11 PM   #1053
Thomas Campbell
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Dan, please clear your PM in-box

Thanks.
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Old 06-23-2007, 09:33 PM   #1054
Budd
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thank you very much for the detailed response.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Speed as timing/ technique has been discussed and done to death. There are many arts that can get you there in varying degrees; from the Kata based arts with years of repetition of movements on to the more freestyle based forms of grappling.
The reason I started into aikido was that at a wrestling camp, one of my coaches was a former Ukranian wrestling coach, sambo champion (his adult son and daughter-in-law were at the time sambo champs in the US) who would often punctuate especially tough workouts with the phrase "Good Vork!". When I locked up with him, I felt something much different than what I understood to be strength and speed, it was an inevitability of movement based on connection where he received everything I gave and I felt like a toddler trying to fight a grown man.

It was like nothing I'd ever felt and I've been manhandled by Division I wrestlers (coached by Olympic Gold medalist Bruce Baumgartner) who had freakish muscular strength and explosiveness. This was something different. I was a teenager then and seventeen years later, I've been chasing that feeling ever since (someone suggested I go try aikido in the 90s, which I then circled back to in 2003).

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Speed as a result of good bodywork is a different topic. It starts with learning to take slack out of the body. Once this is achieved any action is more immediate. Then you learn the various ways to move with it. Many arts instill a firing mechanism of muscle-chaining, which creates a reserve of tension to use. You can see this in many of the snap/jumping motions of fighters. That isn't what we should be doing and in fact is actually slower to move from.
When you take the slack out, does it also create a reserve of tension? Or is it more a state of readiness to either generate power or release it from your structure as needed? Just trying to see if I'm following what you're saying, because I definitely don't want to make any assumptions or give the impression that I'm trying to sound knowledgeable, rather hoping to see if I'm properly understanding what you're saying via this limited communication channel. If a reserve of tension is created, then I could see how an additional snap/jump motion could reduce the efficiency of movement, which is what I think you explain more of in the following. Another question would be is rather than the snap/jump motion, is a form of body release the more appropriate type of movement (to both receive external force or generate force externally), or is it something else?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Slack is very interesting to watch in people as they try to move and react. It not only accounts for slowness it also bleeds energy when we move and incrementally diminishes power transfer into a target and or how we receive power. It also accounts for why true aiki rarely happens in connecting with another person. An untrained person "adds" to support himself and has little or no idea of how to control his body so that his movements move others. For the most part "Aiki" in the hands of most of us is a game of timing and displacement and has little to do with the legendary power of the same name.
Anyway, once trained, movement becomes both faster and more importantly harder to read before it happens and power transfer is more efficient. More importantly when one encounters someone with this types of trained body their actions just sort of "run through" the trained persons body. They become "connected" to him and their movements are easier to read and far easier to manipulate and control.
Would this phenomenon of "run through" be the type of ukemi where you're 'receiving' what the other guy is doing via being "connected", rather than 'falling' as a result of it?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Power and Aiki are connected in ways most folks are unaware of.
Sort of circling back to power and speed (and their relative importance), does (at least the perception of) speed have the same connection to Aiki as power in that the connected body moves most efficiently with relaxed power? Again not trying to sound like I know any of this (probably coming off as obtuse), but I'm just trying to take advantage of the resource of being able to ask questions until I get the chance to go feel this stuff in person.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:42 PM   #1055
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...If you tell me you didn't mean me -in your comments about the Chinese arts- then that's good enough for me. I care more about your intended meaning aynway.
I understand that you have a daito-ryu and kenjutsu background, though you have talked a good bit about training with some Chinese-style masters. What I meant to say (and I think if you look back at the post you referenced, it will be clear) is that a lot of the feats and skills described in the internal mechanics discussions sound more like Chinese performances than like Japanese performances.

It is true that Ueshiba did that thing where several people would push him and not move him. Also Tohei. But I pointed out one example of where Tohei was moved. And Mochizuki sensei never once demonstrated that kind of standing against attempts to move him. It might have been his time with Mifune, but he always moved--and dropped the guy who was pushing him. And speaking of Mifune, when someone once asked him, "I'm younger, stronger and, realistically, faster than you. Why is it you always beat me?" Mifune answered, "It's simple: you take two steps, I take one."

The fact that Tohei could be moved in certain demonstrations, under certain circumstances doesn't detract from his status as an aikido master. And therefore, I just don't think that those skills are really the essence of aikido. Not to say they're immaterial. I recently met a fellow whose wife is Japanese. Her uncle is an aikido teacher in Japan and my friend was very impressed that this uncle of his wife's could sit on his butt, raise both feet in the air and let you push him by the head--but you couldn't move him. So there's a definite stream of that within aikido, but Mochizuki, who goes back to way before it was ever called aikido, didn't see fit to include it in what he was doing, whatever that means.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As far as training with people who have trained with Ueshiba? Why yes I have-many times..With the latest meeting offerring some extremely surprising comments about this very topic for both me and others in the room. Not that it really matters. Those who already know the truth ...already know. I think most others really don't want to know anymore.
I'm aware that my experience is neither the baseline nor the outer border. I know that it has limits and those limits are not necessarily permanent. I have no rank or organizational standing to defend, so I have no reason not to learn whatever is true. I hope you will expound on those comments without restraint.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-23-2007, 10:57 PM   #1056
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Speed as a result of good bodywork is a different topic. It starts with learning to take slack out of the body. Once this is achieved any action is more immediate....Slack is very interesting to watch in people as they try to move and react. It not only accounts for slowness it also bleeds energy when we move and incrementally diminishes power transfer into a target and or how we receive power.
This is why I thought you would find Feldenkrais interesting. It's all about accurate sensing of slackness--though most people would say (it's easier to say) excess tension.

The fact is, slack is usually caused when one is using the wrong muscles to perform a function and the muscle that should be performing that function is left out altogether.

Feldenkrais excercises put the body in unusual positions, then demand a relatively simple movement that can only be done if one is using the correct muscles in the correct ways. Almost anyone will find areas where they're not using the proper muscles and so, in those unusual positions, they will find that certain simple movements are very hard to make.

After several repetitions, they invariably recognize the small error and sense how to activate that formerly "slack" muscle.

At the same time, they have to recognize that they have been unnecessarily using other muscles, resulting in unnecessary tension, which they can release as soon as they recognize it and begin using the correct muscles.

So the experience leads to awareness, which leads to release of both improper slackness and unnecessary tension.

The result is both freer movement, more spontaneous and immediate movement and a sense of more energy and less burden.

This, of course, goes back to the idea of "intent". Does someone "intend" to use the wrong muscles to perform certain acts? Does he "intend" to leave inactive the very muscles he should be using?

Of course not. And when he becomes aware of what he is actually doing, he also tends to recognize "why" he has been doing it that way, which gets into the realm of psychology and personality.

So the change is deep-reaching and, once felt, easily maintained and expanded on.

So that's why I think you would find the Feldenkrais Method both interesting and useful. It's all about intent and the use of the total body organism.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 06-24-2007, 07:29 AM   #1057
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
.....is that a lot of the feats and skills described in the internal mechanics discussions sound more like Chinese performances than like Japanese performances.

It is true that Ueshiba did that thing where several people would push him and not move him. Also Tohei. But I pointed out one example of where Tohei was moved. And Mochizuki sensei never once demonstrated that kind of standing against attempts to move him. It might have been his time with Mifune, but he always moved--and dropped the guy who was pushing him. And speaking of Mifune, when someone once asked him, "I'm younger, stronger and, realistically, faster than you. Why is it you always beat me?" Mifune answered, "It's simple: you take two steps, I take one."

The fact that Tohei could be moved in certain demonstrations, under certain circumstances doesn't detract from his status as an aikido master.
.... So there's a definite stream of that within aikido, but Mochizuki, who goes back to way before it was ever called aikido, didn't see fit to include it in what he was doing, whatever that means.

Best to you.
David
Dave
Being immovable is -not- a goal of mine nor anyone who trains with me so I don't know who or what you're talking about. Being all but unthrowable and having the opponent feel like he was hit by a hammer is. Particularly from a clinch or mount. It's about a hard rubber or rubber coated steel cable feel I'm interested in and have attained to a degree. I'm far frome satisfied with my training though. You greatly misunderstand the use of this type of training nad reveal your level of understanding at the same time. It is ALL about practical use. If you shoot for me I don't want to go down, if you try to throw me judo or jujutsu style- I'll want to break your ribs or face, or use your throw to throw you. All that is done specifically by being very relaxed, fluid and.......mobile. What do you think I just stand there like some dolt.

Were Aiki-do -to be your goal then this type of training will make Aikido come alive. There the increased sensitivity to capture their force and manipulate it, as well as the ability to walk through while entering is greatly enhanced. We can of course add what Mark Murray and others are discovery, and what I wrote about ten years ago and was told I was full of it. That is the abiltiy to be all but unlockable and unthrowable. In the limited environment of AIkido this type of training builds what Ueshiba wrote about and suggested was attainable. An undefeatable body and an atemi that can kill. Of course he didn't meant it literally. But the power level is very high.

What you fail to realize- is that there are ways to train your body to take care of itself. Ways to make connections so that incoming forces are nuetralized giving me...more options than you, in the same space and time. When you add to that increased sensitivity. heavy hands, and increased stength, it makes a potent fighter.

These things are known David. The fact that you don't know them doesn't change a thing. Feldenkras method I am not interested in. I've had two people try to convince me of it. I tossed them and moved them all over the place (not fighting just efficient movement and they could do nothing to me. I decided I'll stick with my own research and training.
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:17 AM   #1058
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Dave
Being immovable is -not- a goal of mine nor anyone who trains with me so I don't know who or what you're talking about. Being all but unthrowable and having the opponent feel like he was hit by a hammer is. Particularly from a clinch or mount. It's about a hard rubber or rubber coated steel cable feel I'm interested in and have attained to a degree. I'm far frome satisfied with my training though. You greatly misunderstand the use of this type of training nad reveal your level of understanding at the same time. It is ALL about practical use. If you shoot for me I don't want to go down, if you try to throw me judo or jujutsu style- I'll want to break your ribs or face, or use your throw to throw you. All that is done specifically by being very relaxed, fluid and.......mobile. What do you think I just stand there like some dolt.
Well, I've always figured if you can be immoveable when a huge guy is trying to push you, you can probably do pretty much anything you want with him. I don't mistake it as your goal in practice, but it's something that Mochizuki Sensei didn't even address. As I've said in other posts, I've been surprised to find myself unmoved on occasion when bigger people tried to affect me, which is why I've also said "under the right conditions" I might be able to do some of those things. It would be rather like rain or snow or lightning. It doesn't just happen on demand, but when the conditions are right, nothing else can happen.

No, I have never thought that standing unmoved was your goal. you've made it clear that you work for application--and not application of kata or form, but in the MMA setting, which I know is "demanding" to say the least. We just never trained for immoveability at all--though it has emerged at unexpected moments as an unexpected side-effect from the technical training.

And which does bring us back to technique because when the other guy is matched in strength and speed, technique will decide. It can even decide when the opponent is somewhat stronger, faster and larger, as Mifune proved.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were Aiki-do -to be your goal then this type of training will make Aikido come alive.
That's why I've been interested in feeling what you do.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In the limited environment of AIkido this type of training builds what Ueshiba wrote about and suggested was attainable. An undefeatable body and an atemi that can kill. Of course he didn't meant it literally. But the power level is very high.
Actually, I think he did mean literally an atemi that can kill. That's why, when the emperor invited him to demonstrate, he said that "real" aikido kills the opponent at a single blow. Since he couldn't kill his training partner, he didn't want to demonstrate before the emperor. It was okay to "show the lie" to ordinary people, but not the emperor.

And that killing atemi is behind Takeda's statement that "The art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance, and win without fighting."

It's not a "hard" look, as someone suggested, but it communicates subconsciously to the potential attacker that something very, very bad will happen to him if he attacks, and he chooses not to attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What you fail to realize- is that there are ways to train your body to take care of itself. Ways to make connections so that incoming forces are nuetralized giving me...more options than you, in the same space and time. When you add to that increased sensitivity. heavy hands, and increased stength, it makes a potent fighter.
Well, of course that's unquestioned. The question is whether it can be done with mere practice of technique. Which puts us back to the court of "Of what level of technically trained person has your method made you the equal?" In other words, do you have "more options in the same space and time" as a judo 6th dan? 7th dan? Mifune?" Not having met you, I can only compare you in my imagination to some of the people I met in Japan.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Feldenkras method I am not interested in. I've had two people try to convince me of it. I tossed them and moved them all over the place (not fighting just efficient movement and they could do nothing to me. I decided I'll stick with my own research and training.
Well, that's your prerogative, but like Mike, I think you're confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais. It isn't to make me a better fighter than you. It's to make me better at whatever I do. It's to help you find more efficient ways to do the same thing you're doing. I haven't met anyone whose level of sensitivity or perception could not be deepened by exploring the Feldenkrais movement series.

In one of my classes, I took a student and did some Feldenkrais-based things on the right side of his body, then had him stand up. Everyone in the room was startled because his right side was a good two inches taller than his left side. It was a bizarre thing. His right eye was larger than his left and the right side of his face was more open and younger-looking than his left. There are things in Feldenkrais that no one would imagne without direct experience--and you can't experience those by trying to fight the guy who's trying to show you.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-24-2007 at 11:20 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:40 AM   #1059
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'm working so I can't write just now.
Fighting is fighting, Dave. Its why I -always- seperate it out from body work. I've met a few CMA guys with decent structure, even in practical use, but we both knew I could take them apart were we to go at it. And then there are guys without internal skills per se who can, I am quite sure take me apart. It doesn't deny the validity of the training method. But in the end fighting skill is just that. The real question is how to make me a better me. Wtether fighting, hiking, lifting or moving.
Now that said Internal skills will skew that to an internal artists advantage in a huge way depending on their skil level, thats all.

Actually I NEVER said you can't learn parts of internal skill through paired training. You just keep saying I did. I keep saying its the slow way. I just said it a few posts back. The problem is everyone goes through "Man, everything scame together for me" days in the dojo, when they could be defining and working specifics to make that" coming together a regular event. Better still, that there are methods to target train the body that you don't have to maybe or maybe not "Find" one day in the dojo. It makes rising to master class a much shorter road whatever your chosen art may be.

You also keep saying Rob, Mike, and I try to say this training is something new when all three of us say just the opposite. That it's old, its known, but not openly taught when it could be. Sometimes I worry you're not reading what I saying. Case in point, I said the feldenkras guy and I were NOT...NOT...fighting!! Your retort was I would have learned something if I stiopped fighting him. To be clear he was telling me he could show me a better way to move that ewould handle guys trying force on me-this after he watched me do so. His methods failed over and over against me. So Why would I use something I can stop. Add to that another fellow I met with the same results. Now I met two Chinese teachers who had a great deal of trouble moving me but who's methods were logical and very sound. And one of thme had power (at 70) unlike any I had felt before. So, I'd just rather keep doing what I am doing and then adding things from guys who got the stuff and are willing to share. Not from guys who think they do.

Last edited by DH : 06-24-2007 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 06-24-2007, 01:09 PM   #1060
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm working so I can't write just now.
I'm on the 12th draft of my novel these days...just taking a breather...

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...And then there are guys without internal skills per se who can, I am quite sure take me apart. It doesn't deny the validity of the training method.
Exactly. And vice versa. There's nothing ultimately wrong with developing by technique practice--unless the techniques are of such a narrow range that they don't cover the whole map of human potential. Mifune is a perfect example of how judo technique does cover the full range of human potential. But modern judo competition has narrowed that, effectively, for most people. They will never experience and develop the full range of potential that Mifune did because competition forces them to work on a narrow range of the technical map.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
But in the end fighting skill is just that. The real question is how to make me a better me. Wtether fighting, hiking, lifting or moving.
Absolutely agreed. And the Feldenkrais Method is far broader than any of the people you've met so far. Besides which, they have presented it to you in the wrong context, which is why I encourage you to have a look at it in its own terms.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now that said Internal skills will skew that to an internal artists advantage in a huge way depending on their skil level, thats all.
And I agree, from all that I've heard. Of course, I believed that when the only internal training methods I knew of were tai chi and baguazhang.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually I NEVER said you can't learn parts of internal skill through paired training. You just keep saying I did.
Where did I say that? I know I've refered to technique practice, which tends to be paired, but don't forget, yoseikan also emphasized karate (and Hiroo Mochizuki emphasizes it much more than his father did). Like Ushiro Sensei, that "technique" practice is solo....through karate kata....

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I keep saying its the slow way. I just said it a few posts back.
Slow and often injurious. I wouldn't mind finding specific ways to shorten that time. On the other hand, the Feldenkrais approach to slackness and excess tension did help me quite a lot. It helped me recover from injuries, get back with the black belts and reduce the effort I needed to make better technique. It also let me view in deep detail my motivations for training and reorient my life.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You also keep saying Rob, Mike, and I try to say this training is something new when all three of us say just the opposite. That it's old, its known, but not openly taught when it could be.
Well, Rob refers to the Aun statues at the temples, clearly stating that Akuzawa's method does go way, way back. And you have indicated that you learned yours through dait ryu. Mike seems most pointedly to have learned what he has partly from Chinese sources and transferring it onto the aikido framework. And I know it's old in China. But in early discussions, Rob said that the Aunkai method was not qigong and there was a lot of unclarity about exactly what it was--including whether it was new or old.

But I don't recall saying lately that the concepts are new...

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I said the feldenkras guy and I were NOT...NOT...fighting!! Your retort was I would have learned something if I stiopped fighting him. To be clear he was telling me he could show me a better way to move that ewould handle guys trying force on me-this after he watched me do so. His methods failed over and over against me. So Why would I use something I can stop.
He was showing you Feldenkrais methods in a mistaken context. That's not the way to communicate the essence of it. It's true that Feldenkrais was trained in judo by Jigoro Kano and some of his top students, that Feldenkrais founded the Judo and JuJutsu Club of Paris and that he was a major influence on judo and some aikido people in Europe, but his Feldenkrais Method is not primarily about showing you a better way to move that would handle guys trying force on you. It's like taking a microscope to your nervous system. And if you've already developed the ability to look at your own system with a microscope, you'll find that the Feldenkrais approach will be like using and electron microscope.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So, I'd just rather keep doing what I am doing and then adding things from guys who got the stuff and are willing to share. Not from guys who think they do.
Well, Feldenkrais was not so widely influential because he couldn't do things. I know I flatly rejected learning about his method when I first heard of him--using very much the same words and reasoning you use. So I can say I know where you're coming from on that. But I will also say that no one has presented it to you as it's supposed to be.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 06-24-2007, 02:41 PM   #1061
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Naw
I read about it enough and met two folks-one who supposedly teaches it. I'm just not interested. Looks like a dead end to me. I have an open mind, but judging from what I read it pretty much isn't any direction I'm interested in. It's easy enough to read someone's description of double-weightedness (double heavy) and see how it ties in with axis work and have a conversation with some people. But ten minutes into reading Feldenkras I left. Since you seem to know so much about it and can and have used it- we'll see how much it helps -you- when we meet. The proof is in the pudding.

There's nothing ultimately wrong with developing by technique practice...
Your kidding right. It is THEE, single, one stop source, for why most guys never did. The idea of "devoloping the body" through technique over twenty years is just plain sad.
You leanr fighting through technique and experience. You don't develope your body that way. Even good MMAers know that and they do cardio and lift and point specific drills. yet here we are talking about a much harder way to develope the body and you come on board and say technqoue is enough!
Never was, never will be. did ya read my sig line?
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Old 06-24-2007, 04:37 PM   #1062
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hey Budd! Been busy working a hell of a lot. Hope you and all over there are doing well.

Basically, what I have learned is that I have a LOT of work to do (in regard to my visit with Dan). That's about it...

Best,
Ron (nothing new here, move along please...)

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I also hope that those of you folks (Mark M., Ron T., I'm especially hoping you'll contribute, cause I've met you and have some context for your words, but I'd welcome any other perspectives) that are now working on the fundamentals from your meetings with Dan (yes, I'm jealous -- but that includes missing meeting Mike & Rob when they were in the DC area) will be able to provide some updates -- basically, whatever you feel comfortable sharing that you start to notice/feel happening within you as you continue working the solo drills, etc.

I continue to be quite interested in this stuff and think that, while the debate seems to have somewhat settled down regarding whether these skills are out there and are integral parts to budo training -- I know I'd personally love to hear more about the progress you guys are making as you start to work this stuff. Anything from how you see your posture changing, to how you start to apply/receive forces in training or in everyday interactions.

I guess I'd say just colour me mucho curiouso (pardon the Spanglish).

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-24-2007, 05:36 PM   #1063
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Since you seem to know so much about it and can and have used it- we'll see how much it helps -you- when we meet. The proof is in the pudding.
Helps me...what? Proof of...what? What do you think I have said it will do? I think you will be surprised that I don't take the same approach as other people you have met--and I'm not a certified practitioner. For me, Feldenkrais is a way to explore...on a very subtle level.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There's nothing ultimately wrong with developing by technique practice...
Your kidding right. It is THEE, single, one stop source, for why most guys never did. The idea of "devoloping the body" through technique over twenty years is just plain sad.
I'm not just talking about developing the body. That's really one thing I think Americans have gotten wrong about martial arts. In the US (maybe the West), I've seen it promoted as 1) self defense; and 2) physical fitness; and 3) spiritual development; and 4) recreation; and 5) philosophy; and 6) social network; and several other things, all at once.

I guess it was about ten years ago that I realized that the technique really should be separated from the physical fitness aspects and strength development. The truth is, martial arts cannot and should not be "all things to all people" or the essence is lost and I think that has happened with aikido.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
did ya read my sig line?
Yes, I have read that. Of course, technique alone is not enough. For most people, that idea should have been washed up about green belt. On the other hand, I don't really know what kind of solo training you're doing.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-24-2007 at 05:39 PM.

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Old 06-24-2007, 06:34 PM   #1064
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hey Budd! Been busy working a hell of a lot. Hope you and all over there are doing well.
We're chugging along, doing what we do. Keep on pushing ourselves, trying to improve, the usual drill.

Don't work too hard, though, life's too short! The wife and I are looking to possibly do a weekend in Philly in the fall, if you're available, we should hook up (maybe for training or for social fun or both).

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Basically, what I have learned is that I have a LOT of work to do (in regard to my visit with Dan). That's about it... .
Yeah, that's one of those lessons I keep getting hammered into me as well. I'm trying to make more efforts to get out into the big bad world to train with others though - I figure part of the improvement process thing is to try to get exposed to the other stuff I don't know about that's out there.

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Best,
Ron (nothing new here, move along please...)
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Old 06-25-2007, 05:57 AM   #1065
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hey Bud
Why not "tag along" with Ron, Mark, or Murray and make a weekend or prolonged day thing of it. You'll leave with plenty of homework and then we can talk on the phone to refresh some of the exercises. My goal is to get you guys on your own and thinking in as short a time as possible.
Think of it this way.
It's free
It's fun
And it will change your Budo- maybe even how you "think" about Budo forever.
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Old 06-25-2007, 07:19 AM   #1066
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Re: Baseline skillset

All sounds good to me.

Best,

Budd
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Old 06-25-2007, 08:19 AM   #1067
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Re: Baseline skillset

Oh . . . and thanks, again!
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:22 AM   #1068
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, that's your prerogative, but like Mike, I think you're confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais.
I don't confuse the purpose of Feldenkrais at all, David. I think you do. I think Feldenkrais is an interesting take on body mechanics. I think it actually evolved from an incomplete understanding of "intent" (which Ueshiba refers to also, BTW) and therefore it missed the mark. You think it adequately meets the criteria, including intent, so I would suggest that it's *you* who are confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais. Feldenkrais wasn't used by Ueshiba, Kano, Mifune, or anyone I know of, so your theory seems to be unique to yourself.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:31 AM   #1069
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No. That's why I quit selling them... I didn't feel like people were getting adequate results (videos made good money, though... but that wasn't why I put them out). Basically it boils down to the fact that someone has to show you and sort of chaperone you through a bit of a learning period. Books and videos just don't work *unless* you already have some idea of how to do the skills already.

Besides, those videos are over a decade old (the last set I did) and they're pretty outdated. I suggest just get one of them (#2) if someone is curious.

Best.

Mike
Much thanks for the info Mike!
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Old 06-26-2007, 01:26 PM   #1070
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Feldenkrais wasn't used by Ueshiba, Kano, Mifune, ... so your theory seems to be unique to yourself.
But was "pengjin"?

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Old 06-26-2007, 02:23 PM   #1071
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think Feldenkrais is an interesting take on body mechanics. I think it actually evolved from an incomplete understanding of "intent" (which Ueshiba refers to also, BTW) and therefore it missed the mark.
Mike, you are so funny. You never let a lack of understanding keep you from tearing something down...or trying to, anyway. What do you think "the mark" of Feldenkrais is? Maybe you're missing that (duh) so you think Feldenkrais misses. You don't even see the target of Feldenkrais, dude.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You think it adequately meets the criteria, including intent, so I would suggest that it's *you* who are confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais.
Why don't you tell me what you think the purpose is?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Feldenkrais wasn't used by Ueshiba, Kano, Mifune, or anyone I know of, so your theory seems to be unique to yourself.
Feldenkrais "GOT" a lot of his method from Kano. A lot of it is the basics of judo, broken down into much smaller components, which are then used as departure points to examine "effort" and to find excess "slack" and tension in the body as describe earlier. That is its purpose--to make the learner aware of where they're using too much or not enough muscular involvement to make their movements. How does Feldenkrais "miss the mark" on that?

It is a bit of a shame that, while Feldenkrais did get extensive instruction in judo both directly from Kano and from Kano via some of his top students, he never met Morihei Ueshiba. With a mind like his, meeting Ueshiba would undoubtedly have produced some incredible insights.

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Old 06-26-2007, 04:58 PM   #1072
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Oh I dunno David. Like I said 5 minutes into a conversation I know if someone is on the right track with certain things. Ten minutes into reading Feldankras I said '...Naw'

I spotted way back that you don't know this stuff and neither did a host of folks who were very vocal in oppostition. You guys sort of said -we- were full of crap.
All of -you- who now felt us,
now agree with us
and disagree with you.

All due respect man, I still like ya. You just aint doin- what I'm doin.
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:16 PM   #1073
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Feldenkrais "GOT" a lot of his method from Kano. A lot of it is the basics of judo, broken down into much smaller components, which are then used as departure points to examine "effort" and to find excess "slack" and tension in the body as describe earlier.
Feldenkrais "got" his impression of how *some* of the ki things actually work from Kano. One of the things becoming more clear through a number of sources currently is that even worse than western Aikidoists, western judokas dropped the ball on the ki aspects that were in ju jitsu and judo. I've read Feldenkrais's takes on a lot of things and frankly, I think he got some things and missed others.... but the next generation simply blew it and Moshe probably wouldn't approve of a lot of what is being called Feldenkrais nowadays. Regardless, the main point that gives away the big "miss" is the point about "intention". It didn't make it into Feldenkrais. Ergo, Feldenkrais doesn't hack it for the Asian martial arts. Which means, as I stated, that it's *you* who is confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais when you try to conflate it with martial arts, David. If you now want to pronounce Feldenkrais has some other purpose,fine.... but you're the one who introduced it as a companion to Aikido.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:20 PM   #1074
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Justin Smith wrote: View Post
But was "pengjin"?
Heh. "Pengjin" is used in Cheng Man Ching's own books and in every other acceptable source of Taiji commentary. You just don't know what it is, or you wouldn't have set yourself up so badly.

But I've been through this with others, like Peter Lim. First the denial that there is such a thing and then when a number of actual experts say it's in all the literature, all that's left is to say... "Oh... pengjin.... sure, but Sigman doesn't really understand it." Heh. If you don't know what pengjin is, Justin, then your teacher was a fraud if he taught you something and called it taiji. It's the basis of Taiji. And Aikido. And Xingyi. Etc. Sometimes called "neijin" or often just "jin".

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:32 PM   #1075
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Rob
Kuroda? Otake Sensei?
I'd bet my money on mid level students of various Koryu bujutsu of my choosing against Aikido Shihan. I'm not disparaging Aikido but rather the "idea" that you can take the sword away from men who train to use it. I've had this discussion with top men in the field of Japanese Bujutsu. I don't think you'll find the idea taken seriously by many of them and you will get laughed at to your face by several I know. The idea is viewed with as much credibiltiy as the Aikido folks who punch the knuckles of a knife wielders hands as a defense, or tenkan. Its generally recognized that allot will change if you give the knife- or in this case the sword- to someone who knows how to use it.

A more interesting topic is the idea of internal training and sword. Which is better; speed or power?
Speed.
I disagree. While I agree with your point concerning aikiken vs other JSA. I think speed is less advantageous than power IMO. I've found that internal skills help prevent people from striking you, which balance out against speed of attack. So if you want to win by attacking, speed. If you want to win by waiting for the other guy to screw up, power. Though as with all things of this nature there is a balance to be struck I think, and of course a knowledge of both sides of that particular equation is needed.

IMHO

Mike

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