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Old 06-22-2007, 09:05 AM   #1026
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This presupposes that the practitioners of these two arts -Aikido and Tai chi- have a clue as to what they were supposed to be getting from their art in the first place. And secondly that you have any qualifying skills to both identify and judge what is shared and just what IS different.
Well, we're looking at two old-time sandans from Koichi Tohei. That would be equivalent to sixth or seventh dan in modern American aikido. And again, they were trained by Tohei, who has been advanced as one of the ultimate expressors of "the real aikido", along with Ueshiba and Shioda. So I think we have to say that those two guys must have known at least the fundamentals.

Next, we have Smith, who was advanced enough in tai chi to be able to recognize the relative stiffness in their arms and to perform multiple pulldowns on both of them.

And while I'm not a master of either aikido or tai chi, I've seen enough of both to know that they are not fundamentally the same.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Odd that of the few men who actually have skills and ability to really judge-they seem to find similarities. Perhaps, they have the knowledge to see things you cannot see, David. Perhaps they can look past yet another technique and to discern what is really going on.
I've met many such people. And note that I didn't say the arts and even the techniques are not "similar." You can find similarities by the dozens. A long-trained martial artist of any style can usually begin to pick up elements of very "different" arts because, of course, they're based on the human body and its interaction with other human bodies that work with the same limitations. So it would be wrong to say that the arts are not similar at all, but I think it's also wrong to say that their differences are insignificant. If you and Mike Sigman, both living in the US, both with similar (generally similar) martial arts backgrounds, can both be doing similar things, yet differently, we would be wrong to say that you're both doing "the same" things. Now how much more so must we believe that the arts created in vastly different cultures, among people remote from one another, and in many cases, dire enemies, are doing 'the same things'?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A couple years ago I spent an afternoon with a Chinese master of tai chi who also had trained two of Sagawa Yukioshi's students. he found and even expounded on similarities he saw with his experiences in Japan.
Yet, I've met many men like you in Aikido and DR and Tai chi who categorically state their arts are "unique" and different from all the rest. I know who I'll listen to.
I'm not saying that "my" art is unique and different from all the rest. I'm saying that "ALL" the arts are unique and different from all the rest. Although they all use the four limbs and head attached to the trunk, each expresses something different from the others. Each takes a different approach from the others. Each emphasizes different principles and deemphasizes other principles. Ergo, each is unique.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So as you said "What are we left with?" Pretty much listening to men expound on their own experiences- as limited or as expansive as they may be.
And every one of them "unique".

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
An example right here is your fanciful idea that aikido people can take away "samurai swords" from swordsmen.
Ueshiba did it. I'm not of the opinion that I can do it with "anyone." I met some very serious swordsmen in Japan. I'm also acquainted with Toshishiro Obata, an expert in tameshigiri and once uchi deshi to Gozo Shioda, and I agree with him that very few people could take a sword from a professional swordsman. However, the way I got to know Obata Sensei was when I met one of his more advanced students, an Army Captain at the time (about 1985), who came to my dojo and demonstrated the fundamentals of Obata's teaching. We did discuss sword-taking methods (since he had no background in aikido). And while I wasn't silly enough to try to take his live katana from him during a serious attack, he did say that I was the only person he'd met (other than Obata Sensei) who could effectively apply the wrist-pressure-point manipulation we called "te kubi otoshi". But I'm with Obata that very few men could take a sword from a professional swordsman--including people like Obata, Kuroda, Otake, et al.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
First off, calling them "samurai swords" instead of Katana sounds amateurish and weird,
Considering that I usually call them "samuree swards", it should sound relatively knowledgeable.

Actually, I think that reference was in regard to a tai chi man. The movement and technique of tai chi simply isn't designed to deal, unarmed, with the Japanese sword. If anything, it is oriented to the Chinese straight sword, with its unique usage. However, aikido's fundmental orientation is to the Japanese sword. The full range of aikido omote is the full range of the ura of kenjutsu. I know one man who I believe was fully a master of that, aside from Mochizuki. That was his top student, Kyoichi Murai, who was really a master swordsman and a master aikido man.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
and second taking a Katana out of the hands of someone who knows how to use it is going to be a whole different affair then a bokken wielding Aiki-ken person. I find the idea preposterous.
It is preposterous for most people, but it was normal for Ueshiba, Shioda, Saito and Mochizuki. And it was a fascinating art for Kyoichi Murai (who, if he is still alive, God bless him, would be 91 this year, or 92, I think, so I don't know what he could do now).

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Coming from a point of view like yours-that toddler movement IS aiki and its all natural explains allot about where your coming from and why you "see" the things you see. In the end, It won't change the truth that these Asian arts share in their bodywork.
You miss my point. I have never said that the Asian arts don't "share" in their bodywork. Just that they take the same fundamentals and express them differently. Just as Japan takes Chinese writing and adds its own characters, its own pronunciations, its own meanings, etc. Just as Japanese and Chinese architecture are clearly different, though similar. Just as you and Mike and Rob all do something undeniably different, though undeniably related....

And getting back to toddler movement, Lao Tzu taught that events begin as "seeds" that are so tiny as to be unnoticeable to most people, who recognize them only when they have achieved a good size. So no one recognizes an acorn as an oak tree. No one would recognize a little pencil-point-sized green thing poking out of the ground as a moso bamboo that will grow to 100 feet tall and five or six inches in diameter. Aiki is a way of confronting superior strength and even speed, to neutralize it. Children demonstrate the seeds of that in their clever and tireless evasions.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-22-2007, 09:18 AM   #1027
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Whether or not xxx person takes away the other guys sword, or the other guy gets rammed with the sword is a measure of how deeply one or another has refined/developed his foundation.
I agree for the most part there, but the "technique" of avoiding the sword is precise. One of my favorite scenes in all the history of martial arts movies is where Bruce Lee goes into the Japanese martial arts dojo and cleans the floor with all of them. Then their master (who looks amazingly like Minoru Mochizuki) comes after Bruce with a sword.

What's hillarious is Bruce's "evasions" of the sword attacks. I think this is in "Fist of Fury." As I recall, they show the Japanese guy slashing away with the sword, but you don't really see what Bruce is doing. Then they switch to the swordsman's point of view and you see Bruce sort of twitching his head and shoulders a little bit, side-to-side, and it's so preposterous I laugh out loud every time I see it--every several years!!!

And this is not to say that "no" Chinese art or artist can deal with a Japanese sword. And DEFINITELY not to say that all aikidoists can. I've been to very few aikido dojos where I could make anything like a semi-realistic sword attack without scaring the crap out of the other people there. When I'm holding "WAY" back to make certain I don't hit them, they are quickly convinced that I'm doing my best TO hit them--that's how far off they're conditioned to having a "sword strike" made.

But while real aikido is made for the Japanese sword, tai chi is not and I think very few of even the top masters could deal with one.

However, of course, this is like discussing whether Einstein or Newton could calculate a square root faster. On the other hand, we could say that calculus is better equipped for that than is geometry, for instance.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-22-2007, 09:23 AM   #1028
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Rob
Kuroda? Otake Sensei?
I'd bet my money on mid level students of various Koryu bujutsu of my choosing against Aikido Shihan.
But what if the aikido man were Ueshiba, Saito or Shioda?

Heck, the katana (how's that?) is so dangerous that almost anyone with a live sword should be avoided altogether.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm not disparaging Aikido but rather the "idea" that you can take the sword away from men who train to use it. I've had this discussion with top men in the field of Japanese Bujutsu. I don't think you'll find the idea taken seriously by many of them and you will get laughed at to your face by several I know.
And I would laugh at it for most aikido people I know. But there was a little dojo beside the Abe river in Shizuoka City....

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The idea is viewed with as much credibiltiy as the Aikido folks who punch the knuckles of a knife wielders hands as a defense, or tenkan. Its generally recognized that allot will change if you give the knife- or in this case the sword- to someone who knows how to use it.
Just give a red marker to "ANYONE" and let them go at it without restraint. Very few "masters" will come away without slash marks all over them, including to their throats.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A more interesting topic is the idea of internal training and sword.
I won't argue against that.

Best wishes.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 06-22-2007, 10:13 AM   #1029
HL1978
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A more interesting topic is the idea of internal training and sword. Which is better; speed or power?
Speed.
But with the proper connections built-in your power goes through the roof with no dedicated muscle in the movement. Everything you train for with the hands gets applied in the extension to the weapon. Then you have the idea of body displacement in order to cut-through central pivot. But you won't get there either without training to place your center-out there- in the sword or better yet, the spear point. I don't think you can body-train and then, of a sudden, be good with weapons. The extension I just wrote about is a hard won, many year, endevour. Eminating ground and manipulating center is a powerful tool in weapons work though as misunderstood, by as many, who misunderstand internal structure in budo in general. Its simply not trained or known. I've had folks tell me I'm flexing or using dedicated power when they make contact with my weapon when I am in fact relaxed and simply eminating. One guy even pulled his strike expecting I'd overextend. When he did I just stood there looking at him. If your body is using structure any resistence to the monouchi- even a touch- will result in them feeling ground or power, while you reamin relaxed . Since there is no dedication of power to be had it leaves you being light and mobile though feeling hard to the point of cutting the weapons right out of their hands. With spear, the idea of winding and weight transfer is just as valuable in the thrust, as it is in retraction of the point. Of course none of this will get you mastering Kata or the movements of a ryu. But outside of Kata -axis control and use of the central pivot is a huge advantage in relaxed movement while maintaining balance and non dedicated power in general weapons work.
Hi Dan,

this is a subject I have wanted to engage in with other weapons based MA people, both Rob and I have attempted to do so, but there appears to be very little knowledge of it at all. As usual, no one seems to understand why people move the way they do, and seem to feel that cross training is inappropriate, and only doing the motions of that particualr art for 20 years will lead you don the path of developing it.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:17 AM   #1030
Walker
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
This topic is interesting in regard to the connection between Daito-ryu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu. It would seem that Itto-ryu, with the emphasis of overpowering your opponent (or at least, cutting through your opponent's strike), would benefit greatly from the type of internal work found in Daito-ryu.
I would posit that it is the other way around. I'm not an Itto ryu guy, but I have talked with one who has some roots that go back to Itto and I train a version of hitotsu no tachi. What I hear Dan saying and I agree in my own limited experience is that his relaxed structure takes care of dominating the opponant -- he doesn't need to "overpower" the opponent or cut through their strike. If his structure is correct and he knows how to use it properly in whatever venue (sword or empty hand) then his opponent just doesn't have accesses to any valid line of attack. I think this is why any successful line of Daito ryu must have a weapon curriculum to effectively transmit itself. I might even go so far as to suggest that maybe the sword provides the internal structure and the dynamics for the Daito ryu stuff, but maybe that would be going too far...

Last edited by Walker : 06-22-2007 at 11:25 AM.

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Old 06-22-2007, 11:23 AM   #1031
Upyu
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Rob
Kuroda? Otake Sensei?
I'd bet my money on mid level students of various Koryu bujutsu of my choosing against Aikido Shihan. I'm not disparaging Aikido but rather the "idea" that you can take the sword away from men who train to use it. I've had this discussion with top men in the field of Japanese Bujutsu. <snip>
Hehehe well you know, just had to post an example that would be easy to understand

And you know where I stand with the rest of your post
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:23 PM   #1032
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
An example right here is your fanciful idea that aikido people can take away "samurai swords" from swordsmen. First off, calling them "samurai swords" instead of Katana sounds amateurish and weird, and second taking a Katana out of the hands of someone who knows how to use it is going to be a whole different affair then a bokken wielding Aiki-ken person. I find the idea preposterous.
Capitalizing katana also seems a bit "amateurish and weird."
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:51 PM   #1033
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The solo exercises. They are some of the most painful, hard, exerting, uplifting, tedious, mind-crushing, elating, numbing, exasperating set of exercises that I've ever done. The lazy side of me rebels every time I think of doing them. When I'm doing them right (as right as I can tell), I'm drenched in sweat within 5-10 minutes and they aren't aerobic at all. My mind typically gives out before my body does. And yet, there are moments when doing them that there's a certain elation kind of feeling. You're sinking but rising. The ground feels like it's in other parts of your body ... or rather there is nothing between that part and the ground ... or something like that.

Oh, and then I work on hanmi and everything bad I said about the exercises -- double it. Oh, do I hate hanmi. Especially on one side. And the lower back being flat thing -- ugh.
Now that you've told us how the exercises feel, please tell us how they look. What are you doing? If words seem inadequate to the task, there is always digital photography and video.

Jim
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:56 PM   #1034
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Now that you've told us how the exercises feel, please tell us how they look. What are you doing? If words seem inadequate to the task, there is always digital photography and video.

Jim
YES! PLEASE!
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:19 PM   #1035
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Baseline skillset

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDoLKfxPXy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrzLp...elated&search=

Aunkai stuff.......

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:21 PM   #1036
MM
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Now that you've told us how the exercises feel, please tell us how they look. What are you doing? If words seem inadequate to the task, there is always digital photography and video.

Jim
Hi Jim,

How they look? Oh, man, horrible. Okay, maybe not horrible, but I look at Rob John's videos of him doing these exercises and I certainly don't feel like I'm as clean, crisp or fluid.

But if you want vids, ask Rob John about some of his. The exercises that he shows are what I'm doing. Shiko is one. There's another where you have your arms up over your head and then bring them down beside you (EDIT: tenchijin), the pushout exercise, body axis training (EDIT: shintai jiku), etc. But really, those are basically what I'm doing. Hunter showed me a good exercise for using a bo, but I've already forgotten how to do it. Going to have to see if I can get a refresher on that one.

But the most important part of all of that isn't the video or how they look. I saw Rob's vids before I met him. I can replicate what he's doing on the vid with not too much problem. However, I would never have been able to replicate what Dan, Mike, or Rob is doing internally from the vids. That takes hands on.

But, give me 6 months or so and maybe I can explain what's going on inside a little better. Right now, I really can't describe what I'm doing internally. I feel like I'm 10 years old, I've been given the keys to a McLaren F1, and I'm still bloody trying to get the door open. LOL!

I just have to work on it, wait, and see. You definitely get out of it what you put into it, though.

I know it isn't much in the way of info, but it's the best I can do right now.

Mark

EDIT: I noticed when I previewed this post that someone posted links to Aunkai vids. Hope they help.

Last edited by MM : 06-22-2007 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:24 PM   #1037
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Now that you've told us how the exercises feel, please tell us how they look. What are you doing? If words seem inadequate to the task, there is always digital photography and video.

Jim
The internal exercises are based on how they feel, not how they look. You can look correct and be completely wrong. Probably the first thing they teach you, before you can even begin to do any woo woo, is how to propriocept. Once you know what you are feeling for, then you can approach what you see. Our group did a workshop with Andy Dale a few months back, to get his take on basic internal exercises. We built up to a section of the Chen taichi form. I've been working on the Aunkai stuff since I met Rob and Ark (last October). I have never done any taichi. So to keep things simple, Andy introduced the leg/hip work, then added one arm/hand and we just cycled that for a while. I was trying to keep the cross and all the other secret squirrel internal stuff and couldn't get it to feel right with just the right arm, so I just started pushing the cross out to the other arm, running counter tensions to try and generate a closed loop (kaeshi) so to speak. After a few rounds I found a pattern that felt about right. I looked around the room and about 1/2 of us were all doing the same thing. A few minutes later Andy introduced what to do with the other arm, and it was exactly what we had come up with (with no tai chi experience) just from feeling what needed to happen internally.

Chris Moses
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:45 PM   #1038
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Now that you've told us how the exercises feel, please tell us how they look. What are you doing?
Jim, you might find this interesting:

http://www.aunkai.net/eng/bujyutu/kiban.html

It's part of the updated Aunkai website, giving more of the rationale and some illustrations. I thought it was informative.

And I looked at Jeremy's videos, which were also very informative.

But again, it seems that Aunkai, at least, is a form of qigong. Is there any reason it wouldn't be considered so?

And that is not a dismissal because I've found a lot of benefit from various forms of qigong in the past.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 06-22-2007, 02:50 PM   #1039
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Baseline skillset

You also might want to check out Mike Sigman's videos that are available through Plum Flower (I think). He has a 3 dvd set available with a good deal of explaination.

MJ
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:55 PM   #1040
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

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David Orange wrote: View Post
But what if the aikido man were Ueshiba, Saito or Shioda?
Heck, the katana (how's that?) is so dangerous that almost anyone with a live sword should be avoided altogether.
And I would laugh at it for most aikido people I know. But there was a little dojo beside the Abe river in Shizuoka City....
Just give a red marker to "ANYONE" and let them go at it without restraint. Very few "masters" will come away without slash marks all over them, including to their throats.

I won't argue against that.

Best wishes.

David
Hi Dave

Your simply reciting my argument back to me then you knucklehead-whats up with that?. That's what I would have guessed your view point was in the first place..
1. The sword is a substantial weapon so is a knife and anyone versed in their use would not be having it "taken away"
2. I was talking about level to level. meaning a mid-level sword person, VS a shihan level Aikido person. You used Aikido as an example bud-not me. The sword or a knife is an equalizer. Its really no surprise to most people. I wast just-shocked to hear you state so flatly that an Aikido person could take a sword away.. Which is one of those stupid comments you hear every so often or hear they "practice." Now It appears that overall, you in fact agree with me.
We would have probably ironed this out in three sentences in person

Last edited by DH : 06-22-2007 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:23 PM   #1041
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Dave

Your simply reciting my argument back to me then you knucklehead-whats up with that?
What I'm really saying is that arts are similar because they begin with the same basic raw material--the human body, bones, muscles and mind--but they're different because each art is designed for a different purpose. Look at something as simple as a hammer: there are ball-peens, sledges, claw hammers, framing hammers, and on and on!

And look at all the kinds of mathematics there are. Each for a different purpose.

The point being that aikido is engineered around Japanese culture, including the Japanese, curved sword with its own particular style of usage, while tai chi is oriented to the straight sword (not denying that the Chinese also use broadswords, halberds and spears, as well). But the footwork and body shifting of aikido is different from that of tai chi mainly because of aikido's attention to the Japanese sword, I believe.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. The sword is a substantial weapon so is a knife and anyone versed in their use would not be having it "taken away"
Or "deflected" or anything else unless the defender is really exceptional.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
2. I was talking about level to level. meaning a mid-level sword person, VS a shihan level Aikido person. You used Aikido as an example bud-not me.
I'd pretty much give you any raw, untrained person with a live sword vs almost anyone unarmed.

I remember a story about a sword master whose servant got into some trouble and was going to be arrested and condemned to death. The sword master supposedly convinced the authorities to let him put the servant to death, himself, which he planned to do in a sword duel because he had always wondered what it would be like to fight a totally untrained person with a sword.

It was said that when he came out of the fighting ground, the master was pale and badly shaken. He said "I will NEVER do that again!!!!"

The guy with no training also had no preconceptions or habits and so was completely unpredictable. And besides that, he was fighting desperately for his life and almost killed the master. So I don't take it lightly--the sword or the knife.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wast just-shocked to hear you state so flatly that an Aikido person could take a sword away.
Obviously, most could not. And most training in aikido deludes them into thinking that they can.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now It appears that overall, you in fact agree with me.
We would have probably ironed this out in three sentences in person
Yes. In fact, overall, I think we are saying many similar things. I don't say that I can do everything you can, but our disagreements are probably more semantic than substantial.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-22-2007, 04:29 PM   #1042
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Question: There's been talk about the relaxed, coordinated structure emanating power, but Dan especially with your statement regarding speed being more important than power, I have to wonder if training the body mechanics you describe doesn't also give one a (at least perceived, possibly actual as well -- either way, I'm asking not trying to state from any point of authority) noticeable advantage in speed, purely from the standpoint of efficient movement (or not wasting movement by engaging unnecessary muscles/pathways, etc.)?

From my own experiences working out with boxers and grapplers, the better guys seem to move much faster and with greater relaxed power -- but they never give the impression that they're rushing anything, unstable or off-balanced in their movements. I'm not trying to say that this is the same thing as the "baseline skills" that are described in this thread, instead and in my own clumsy way, I'm trying to ask if the results of the training you describe don't also manifest in what I've described above?

Anyhow, I fully understand if the answer (or at least a good chunk of it) hinges on the "it has to be felt" variety. One of my goals for this year is to be able to get out more and work with those doing this "stuff". But since the discussion had sort of danced around this topic, I thought I'd ask . . .
Speed as timing/ technique has been discussed and done to death. There are many arts that can get you there in varying degrees; from the Kata based arts with years of repetition of movements on to the more freestyle based forms of grappling.

Speed as a result of good bodywork is a different topic. It starts with learning to take slack out of the body. Once this is achieved any action is more immediate. Then you learn the various ways to move with it. Many arts instill a firing mechanism of muscle-chaining, which creates a reserve of tension to use. You can see this in many of the snap/jumping motions of fighters. That isn't what we should be doing and in fact is actually slower to move from.

Slack is very interesting to watch in people as they try to move and react. It not only accounts for slowness it also bleeds energy when we move and incrementally diminishes power transfer into a target and or how we receive power. It also accounts for why true aiki rarely happens in connecting with another person. An untrained person "adds" to support himself and has little or no idea of how to control his body so that his movements move others. For the most part "Aiki" in the hands of most of us is a game of timing and displacement and has little to do with the legendary power of the same name.
Anyway, once trained, movement becomes both faster and more importantly harder to read before it happens and power transfer is more efficient. More importantly when one encounters someone with this types of trained body their actions just sort of "run through" the trained persons body. They become "connected" to him and their movements are easier to read and far easier to manipulate and control.

Power and Aiki are connected in ways most folks are unaware of. There is a reason that "power" was named about a hundred times in so many interviews with all the old aiki guys. Read the responses to that idea in all of "our" readership forums and articles over the years in Aikido journal, Aikido today, and varous other places. Heck, I still remember the comments on the old Aikido list. Now follow them right up to last year. The readers and practitioners of Modern AIkido had no clue what the old guys were even talking about when they used the term- power.
All of these things come from faster solo training. Or you can try it the twenty year "Kata" way.

Last edited by DH : 06-22-2007 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:37 AM   #1043
Michael Douglas
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I did have a few experiences of aiki in Japan, with Mochizuki Sensei ...
I really enjoyed David Orange's post starting here, post 1006.
It is filled with good points, logic and interest. I find myself agreeing with loads of it but I'll not quote it again, just encourage everyone to read the whole thing.

But this ;
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
... I doubt that even a high level practitioner would have much hope against a samurai sword, while an excellent aikido man would take the sword away from the attacker....
I disagree. Completely.

Edit : Oops, too late. Bandwagon already gone. Sorry all.

How can you write so intelligently about the essence of various arts, the practitioners, principles and techniques,
and yet claim that an excellent (unarmed I assume) aikido man could take a real sword away from an attacker. Or is this attacker drunk/slow/moronic?

Last edited by Michael Douglas : 06-23-2007 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:33 AM   #1044
Haowen Chan
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
You also might want to check out Mike Sigman's videos that are available through Plum Flower (I think). He has a 3 dvd set available with a good deal of explaination.

MJ
I was thinking about getting those some time back.

Is there any hope of getting some good exercises out of them without having had prior seminars with Mike Sigman? i.e. without having someone experienced in the room telling you all the moronic things you're getting wrong? Mike himself has sometimes said that you can't explain these things when you're not live and physically present.

I was also considered doing zhan zhuang without an instructor but I'm wary about getting the feelings right without anyone correcting me.
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Old 06-23-2007, 07:22 AM   #1045
DH
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

I found many of David's comments in post #1006 erroneous and deliberately obtuse. He went on at length discussing the essence of Aikido karate, KSR and Judo while telling the internal mechanic crowd we had no right to talk about ueshiba and what he did since we don't know anyone who trained with him. Further that what I do is more chinese. Something which I find hilarious.
In short he doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't have time for a proper reply just yet.

Last edited by DH : 06-23-2007 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:05 AM   #1046
stan baker
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Re: Baseline skillset

Dave

do you have any experience in martial arts

stan
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:41 AM   #1047
David Orange
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Dave

do you have any experience in martial arts

stan
I didn't see anything in the rules of this forum stating that one must have any particular experience to post here. In fact, I have read numerous books (in part, at least, with voluminous viewing of photographs, if any) and I have seen prodigious numbers of videos.

All the stuff on my profile is there because I thought it sounded cool.

How about you?

cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:57 AM   #1048
David Orange
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...telling the internal mechanic crowd we had no right to talk about ueshiba and what he did since we don't know anyone who trained with him. Further that what I do is more chinese....
I did know someone who knew Ueshiba (one of his earliest uchi deshi) and I know what he and his students did. And I've seen aikido all over the US. I don't dispute that tanren is fundamental to all budo, just like numbers are fundamental to all mathematics. But each budo art diverges in a different direction for different purposes--aikido being closely related to the sword, sumo being a shinto ritual of testing strength and responsiveness, judo being for spiritual/intellectual education through physical effort, KSR being the real use of the sword and other weapons (though Mochizuki Sensei believed it was less than truly realistic), etc.

I didn't say that what you do is Chinese. You'll need to quote that. I just reread it and it says something general about a lot of the internal mechanics stuff sounding more Chinese than Japanese.

Give it another good read and pick it apart and I think a lot of your protests will ease.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 06-23-2007, 03:14 PM   #1049
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Baseline skillset

To Jeremy H. and Mark M:

You seem to be implying that Dan's exercises are very similar to the Aunkai exercises. That is fine as far as it goes --- but how do they differ?

To Dan:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Power and Aiki are connected in ways most folks are unaware of. {snippage} The readers and practitioners of Modern AIkido had no clue what the old guys were even talking about when they used the term- power.
All of these things come from faster solo training. Or you can try it the twenty year "Kata" way.
Is it correct to assume that your last statement also means that power with a weapon is acquired faster through solo training that is not based on paired kata practice, than through a kata-based practice, such as TSKSR? If that is what you mean, have you subjected this approach to peer review --- perhaps by senior people in TSKSR? If so, what were their conclusions?

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:46 PM   #1050
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

HI Dave
I just got in from training. I'll look at it again tonight. No sense quibbling over something I either misread or you didn't clarify well.
I take you at face value and for your good word. If you tell me you didn't mean me -in your comments about the Chinese arts- then that's good enough for me. I care more about your intended meaning aynway.
As far as training with people who have trained with Ueshiba? Why yes I have-many times..With the latest meeting offerring some extremely surprising comments about this very topic for both me and others in the room. Not that it really matters. Those who already know the truth ...already know. I think most others really don't want to know anymore.

Last edited by DH : 06-23-2007 at 04:59 PM.
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