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Old 02-02-2007, 08:38 PM   #351
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Eric's Quote:
Well, it worked for me and for generations before me. And it will have to continue working that way until a really rigorous mechanical basis is established. Bottom line, I trust the tradition until the physics catches up.

Thanks, but no thanks... I prefer not to wallow in mediocrity... nor do I expect that of the people that expect me to show them what Aikido is... should be and can be.
Come now, Ignatius, you are not seriously suggesting that in the long tradition and history of martial arts, everyone who has come before has been mediocre? Please.

Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:40 PM   #352
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
You still don't get it... that's why we're talking about BASELINE skills... based on CORE principles which are the same whether it is applied statically or dynamically...
Statics and dynamics are not remotely the same things, a point drilled home to generations of pilots and winter drivers on ice...
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Thanks, but no thanks... I prefer not to wallow in mediocrity... nor do I expect that of the people that expect me to show them what Aikido is... should be and can be.
Thanks for that. You cannot describe the "thing" you seek and yet you will presume to tell others what it is and where to seek it. By what map? And by what warrant? If not in the traditional way, what other? By your own admission, you are uncertain.

You may have failed to take what traditional aikido training offers, but "it" is there in the traditional training if you approach it without preconceptions. You may choose to disbelieve me in what I tell you, in which you are again substituting your presumption of fact for my report of it. That and a distinct lack of trust, when I have given no cause for distrust That is a pattern to note, psychologically speaking. Both you and Mike share it. Get beyond it and take things on their own terms, not yours. Uke waza.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:18 PM   #353
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Here I was, sitting on the couch last nite, watching TV... and during an ad break, my 9yr old son and I started to play around a bit... he got into hanmi and with me sitting on the couch, and we did an exercise, where we would both try to maintain our structure without getting pushed over.

So, here we are, in a relaxed mood, gently but steadily pushing on each others palms, straight out in front of us, him in hanmi, me sitting... both of us feeling the push go to ground - him to his feet and me to my butt. Then as we both slowly and steadily increase the force of the push, he starts to slide along the tiled surface backwards...without breaking structure.

Were we using kokyu and testing each other's kokyu strength? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:59 PM   #354
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Re: Baseline skillset

I don't see any Japanese college judo team captains , or championship level sumo players getting pwnd by aikido teachers. I don't see top ranked kendoka dropping their head in defeat to aikido teachers before the first cut either.

I don't see inconsistent Japanese baseball players going to aikido dojo and coming out phenomenal. Well unless you count Kono Yoshinori as an aikido teacher. And I think Kuwata was pretty consistently good too. Oh wait, Kono likes nanba wallking and works with Kuroda Tetsuzan. No gyros there. Forget I even brought it up.

So yes, by that standard, I'd say today's aikido is pretty mediocre.
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Old 02-02-2007, 10:59 PM   #355
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
I don't see any Japanese college judo team captains , or championship level sumo players getting pwnd by aikido teachers. I don't see top ranked kendoka dropping their head in defeat to aikido teachers before the first cut either.
Why should they? Aikido does not seek to challenge them. Do you not get this yet?
Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
I don't see inconsistent Japanese baseball players going to aikido dojo and coming out phenomenal. Well unless you count Kono Yoshinori as an aikido teacher. And I think Kuwata was pretty consistently good too. Oh wait, Kono likes nanba wallking and works with Kuroda Tetsuzan. No gyros there. Forget I even brought it up.
Done. And not "gyros." Gyrodynamics of which gyros (gyroscopes) are but one special area of concern. If it turns -- it obeys gyrodynamic laws. Whether those laws predominate over other dynamic considerations in a given setting is a fair question, but those principles are operating wherever there is there is any motion about a center. To help you out here, your argument against my model must demonstrate that there is no motion about any center, or that in the setting concerned other dynamics principles are shown to predominate. Either way you need to show something definitive, and empirical. A string of anecdotes showing individual preferences and generalized and supposed consensus proves nothing of any use whatsoever.
Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
So yes, by that standard, I'd say today's aikido is pretty mediocre.
By what standard? Whose standard? On what evidence? And who are you striving against ? And why? Surely, not me. There are far better people out there than me. But here you are.

Ushiro, who you quoted at length elsewhere, said that philosophy and experience go hand in hand, a principle that you apparently espouse. That is a Neo-Confucian principle -- the unity of knowledge and action. Wang Yang-Ming said that if you you do not act on what you know -- you do not really know. My principles of debate only echo my physical understandings of dealing in actual conflict (not voluntary contests), as I have alluded to. My knowledge and my action are as unitary as I can make it.

If it were true that aikido is so mediocre then you would leave it and not trouble yourself. You are still here. Your actions belie your statement of what you "know" about aikido, its standards and its potential. I maintain that these basic things are right there in the traditional modes of teaching, if any one cares to pay attention to them, which I certainly did. Apparently, in your experience many people have not, and apparently you have not, or else you would not, again be here asking or talking about it being lacking.

So harking back to Ushiro, is it a failing of the art in prinicple or just in your experience of it?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:34 AM   #356
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I simply point out that the thing you are looking for outside of aikido (and for whatever reason you did not find it here) -- is in fact -- also here. Sanchin is merely the nmost recent example of things you keep saying we're missing, that I end up showing you are actually here in the traditional modes, and in the physcial action that thesearts do share.
Well, you can put the whole topic to rest by explaining how kokyu and ki are developed in Sanchin, Erick. I notice that when you get into your gyrational rotation hypothesis, you get quite detailed. When you talk kokyu, etc., you tend to revert to "move from the center" and other vagaries. If you understand Sanchin, kokyu, ki development, you should be able to describe in detail how it works.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:52 AM   #357
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
I find Mike's tensegrity structure appealing as a descriptor and I also find Eric's thoughts on biomechanics intriguing, especially the lever and movable fulcrum.
Frankly, once you see and do even a little of this stuff, the kind of discussion that considers "gyrational motion" as anything other than a peripheral oddity goes out the window.

I said it before, but let me say it again. Ki and kokyu development go hand in hand. Power comes from them both and they are inextricably intertwined. That fact alone rules out the rotational movement as anything of import... and anyone with even mediocre skills already knows this. This "debate" is a waste of time, in that sense. A little debate is OK so that neophytes get an idea of which way to go. Unfortunately, the problem with espousing bum theories is that they do indeed influence some neophytes the wrong way. And I never forget listening to some of the older guys who have been doing martial arts for many years... when they see this stuff and the logic and utility is obvious, all the old sayings and legends fall into place, and they ruefully shake their head about the teacher who they have loyally followed down the wrong road for 20 years, etc. It's worth something to me to make that effort to curtail those lost years with misguided teachers.

And in regard to teachers... many "teachers" don't understand how these things work, in a number of Asian martial arts where westerners have become ensconced in the dues-paying hierarchies. Some Asians withold much or all of how to do these things, if they know. The problem on the western side too often tends to be that a "teacher" learned his ignorance from his own "teacher". And this stuff isn't so simple that it can be acquired in a few workshops and the loss never noticed by anyone. All of this is worth open discussion, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:53 AM   #358
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, you can put the whole topic to rest by explaining how kokyu and ki are developed in Sanchin, Erick. I notice that when you get into your gyrational rotation hypothesis, you get quite detailed.
You will note that I said the main movement in the form was standing kokyu tanden ho. Everything I have said about that also applies.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-03-2007, 01:05 PM   #359
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I said it before, but let me say it again. Ki and kokyu development go hand in hand. Power comes from them both and they are inextricably intertwined. That fact alone rules out the rotational movement as anything of import... and anyone with even mediocre skills already knows this. ... Unfortunately, the problem with espousing bum theories is that they do indeed influence some neophytes the wrong way.
When you get around to an actual "fact," especially one that may tend to show what you conclude in the absence of any fact, I may choose to respond in detail. The mode you are using is just as metaphorical as the one you are criticizing in traditional teaching.

Any motion about a center involves gyrodynamic laws of motion, including but not limited to: angular momentum (and its conservation), angular velocity, moments of inertia, and if force is opposed, bending, shear, and torque, torsional stress and strain. The laws hold equally well for large or minutely small motions. All limbs (and even spinal vertebrae) rotate about their own center of mass and hinge from an eccentric joint center. You cannot move your body without a rotation occurring, usually many of them in succession. Even by merely relaxed breathing you rotate your upper limbs away from and toward the body with the cycle of breath, and rotate your spine curling vertically around your cycling diaphragm. There is no more fundamental aspect to human dynamics than differential and sequential rotations.

Or are you positing that kokyu and ki -- even in the metaphorical conception -- do not involve circulation of energy about the center?

If you want to show a mechanical theory to be wrong, you have to meet and overcome it -- with a better mechanical theory, not with a change of metaphor. I may yet be proved wrong in my working model, analytically or empirically. You have not even attempted it. As I mentioned to Eddie, I believe, this requires you to show, first, that dynamics action without rotation occurs in the body and, second, that in a particular instance that action predominates in its mechanical action over the reotations that are occurring in any movement.

I welcome anyone to do so. I don't need any ego satisfaction. I am willing to take a position and if need be, receive a fall, in order to learn something useful from it -- which is the only purpose of this forum.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And I never forget listening to some of the older guys who have been doing martial arts for many years... when they see this stuff and the logic and utility is obvious, all the old sayings and legends fall into place, and they ruefully shake their head about the teacher who they have loyally followed down the wrong road for 20 years, etc. It's worth something to me to make that effort to curtail those lost years with misguided teachers.
Really, the amount of arrogance on a foundation of assumption and ignorance, just astounds. Are your "facts" as good as these unsupported presumptions of yours about me, or more importantly my teachers, not to mention my motivations and my place or purpose in the world? I have a tolerably successful law practice. I don't discuss these things to stroke egos or make money, but to work through specialized and difficult concepts in a place subject to legitimate and potentially, well-informed challenge.

Is that really the basis for your conclusions about me ? Then you have a very poor structure with which to frame any attack at all. I will charitably assume on Ledyard Sensei's testimony about you that the structure and assumptions of your argument are an aberration from the structure underlying your budo.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... westerners have become ensconced in the dues-paying hierarchies.
I will now conclude my argument from the floor -- where I am spasming in helpless laughter at the premise of your statement.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-03-2007 at 01:15 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:37 PM   #360
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

It may well be true that joints rotate, and that the body goes thru a series of small rotations, but that is merely the effect of something else. It is not the causal action. Muscles stretch and contract, pulling the skeletal structure into place - that the joints rotate as a result, is due to the fixed length of the bone structures to which muscles, ligaments and tendons are attached.

That you effect rotational dynamics in performing techniques may well also be true, but it is due to basic linear forces acting on a spherical body. IOW, when you talk about rotations, gyrodynamics, and angular momentum, you are merely describing the effects - not the cause.

I think we're discussing causal action here in a basic linear form, in order for people to grasp the essence of the baseline skills we are discussing.

Ignatius
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:39 PM   #361
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
It may well be true that joints rotate, and that the body goes thru a series of small rotations, but that is merely the effect of something else. It is not the causal action. Muscles stretch and contract, pulling the skeletal structure into place - that the joints rotate as a result, is due to the fixed length of the bone structures to which muscles, ligaments and tendons are attached.

That you effect rotational dynamics in performing techniques may well also be true, but it is due to basic linear forces acting on a spherical body. IOW, when you talk about rotations, gyrodynamics, and angular momentum, you are merely describing the effects - not the cause.

I think we're discussing causal action here in a basic linear form, in order for people to grasp the essence of the baseline skills we are discussing.
You are at the wrong level of analysis for the mechanics involved. The wing does not care what kind of propulsion provides the thrust. The aerodynamics of a given wing are the same for a given thrust/lift condition regardless of the means producing the thrust. Even mere gravity can produce thrust sufficient to generate lift. By and large, aerodynamics does not concern itself with any engine functions.

Kokyu is not at the level of physical function that you are addressing. It is a metafunction of the linear actuation that drive joints and the body into rotary motion. Like aerodynamics, kokyu does not care what causes the motive impulse, but what results from it.

The very fact that the mind can usefully process metaphorical knowledge at two or three removes from motive actuation means that the mind/body interface in fact operates at a level higher than the differential tension of muscles and tendons around a given joint. The linear processing requirements alone become prohibitively large to concsciously manipulate the sequence of muscular action necessary to receive a simple push. There are reasons why we evolved those complex adaptive physical functions long before the capacity for manipulative abstraction or even conscious thought.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:48 PM   #362
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Well, I guess you're right... kokyu = aerodynamics = rotational dynamics. You know, all we're talking about is straight line forces... at a really basic level. But I guess it takes a lawyer to twist and turn it, just for the sake of doing so... and since you can't explain it in straight forward terms, why not dazzle with verbosity and obtuse physics...

Ignatius
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:50 PM   #363
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Baseline skillset

I was tossing a toothbrush this morning, and as it hit the floor and bounced back into the air it was clear that it twirls around its long axis. This is clearly explainable by moments. However, the power to make it bounce and twist (both intrinsic responses) came from somewhere else. The motions are merely a particular characteristic response for a given physical configuration. Yes, and don't ask, I spend my time observing trivial things :-)
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:40 PM   #364
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Frankly, once you see and do even a little of this stuff, the kind of discussion that considers "gyrational motion" as anything other than a peripheral oddity goes out the window.

I said it before, but let me say it again. Ki and kokyu development go hand in hand.

Actually, I hadn't really thought on Eric's rotational motion theory because I got side tracked on other links he posted. There I found info on levers and movable fulcrums which I thought very interesting. But it does seem to me that our internal gyros must come into play with any movement we make, making continuous miniscule adjustments whenever we move and naturally affecting our aikido. But this seems to me to be more of a locomotor response wherein ki/kokyu lies more in the psychomotor realm.

I agree with you on ki and kokyu development going hand in hand.

BTW, did you find the info on the "3 battling forces". Looking forward to the read.

Cheers,
Eddie
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:05 AM   #365
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well, I guess you're right... kokyu = aerodynamics = rotational dynamics.
You know I didn't say that. Who is being obtuse now?
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
You know, all we're talking about is straight line forces... at a really basic level.
You wish it to be. Does not mean that it is. Even simple bending does not involve merely "straightline" forces, but moments and countering shear stress to stop rotation that would occur if there was a joint in the limb stressed in bending. To determine the static equilibrium stress requires the same basic math as the rotational dynamic even if nothing is actually rotating. Look up Mohr's circle.

I merely pointed out that it may not be as easy as you think to analyze it the way you are trying to do it. Is it more effective to analyze the motion of every speck of dirt moving around the center of the planet or to treat it as a single rigid body? All approaches are necessarily approximate. The question is -- which approximation is more useful. You may question the utility of my approach, fair enough, but do it on the merits. Pointless name-calling demeans the forum -- not me.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
But I guess it takes a lawyer to twist and turn it, just for the sake of doing so... and since you can't explain it in straight forward terms, why not dazzle with verbosity and obtuse physics...
I learned this stuff as a pilot long before I was a lawyer. This discussion calls on none of my lawyerly skills at all.

"IT" is a class of manipulations that avoid, in no particular order, resistance in bending, shear, or direct countering moment. Thus, these manipulations do not stress the receiving structure much, if at all. It is not that the structure is thus made "strong" to resist induced forces, it is that the manipulations of induced forces intentionally avoid stress on the structure, so that its strength is irrelevant (beyond maitaining its own integrity).

Every limb has its own center (around which it will rotate if it were a free body) and most have two eccentric hinges that it may rotate around in action. An induced rotation (push) would conventionally be resisted by resisting moment against the engaged joint (a reverse push), or by material stresses in bending, shear or torsion. He must also generally pin his joints in their succession of rotation from the center outward to generate the push, and thus conserve the momentum and increase the energy to apply to the target.

To push you he must select a certain center of effort for the induced moments he wants to apply, defining a circle, infact, several of them, centered on every joint in the chain of action. The nearest one is the joint nearest me in the attack.

As O Sensei said -- you draw a circle around him and remain outside this circle. Moving in complementary or non-contradictory terms, he cannot stop you as long as he intends to keep pushing. Thus you can redraw one of his his circles (and thus the center and orientation of all of his induced moments or rotations to make the push) creating a completely different center of effort. His push thus cannot be directed at you any more, and he is then powerless to affect you.

"It" (kokyu) works "behind" the push. "It" operates to induce a defeating moment -- either about the center of the limb itself, or about the opposite hinge center, by applying either a complementary in-plane (not contradictory) rotation to the pinned portion of the limb, (or a shift of center, which is equivalent to a rotation) or an out of plane rotation (which being perpendicular cannot be contradictory). This causes the system of moments and pinned joints that are necessary to "push" me to be completely disrupted. There is no more power left in the push to have to "resist." Done properly, I move him then nearly as easily as I move my own arm.

It is like disengaging the transmission from the engine. It can rev as high as it wants, but it has no traction any more.

Typically, to resist his intact push, I must take up in my structure the bending, shear or torsional stresses in my "straightline" parts by pinning my own joints, against him, and to carry his horizontal forces to ground reaction. That requires their material to be strong -- primarily in torsion and tension, which the stress-tube fascial model Mike has talked about or the tensegrity model he now favors may not be not too far off of in describing. It may be good as a model of traditional Chinese jin.

But it ain't what O Sensei discussed or taught as aikido, even if some significant root concepts are shared between them. It is not what I am talking about. The distinction is in the need (or the lack of it), for "strength" to provide this internal material resistance to force. As Ikeda says, loosely paraphrasing, if we are not practicing so as to be able to do this as doddering, feeble old men, we are probably not doing it right. The earlier video of the Chinese master demonstrated nothing answering to resistive strength, but rather of force manipulation keeping him from having to resist anything. "Supreme skill in war lies in defeating the enemy without fighting."

Practice is in learning which points, in various interactions to apply complementary or noncontradictory in-plane or out of plane inputs to accomplish this, and how to apply them.

The same essential shape of action, employed by different body parts in different orientations is evident in all of them, however, and we often term it "ikkyo," or the "ikkyo line." If you put your whole structure in a position to draw this line through him and around him, he cannot touch you and he cannot resist you.

Seeing or feeling that "baseline" in every situation is where the art lies, and is the point of practice.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-04-2007 at 12:19 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:12 AM   #366
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
I was tossing a toothbrush this morning, ...Yes, and don't ask, I spend my time observing trivial things :-)
Generally speaking, time well spent. Worked for Newton.
Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
... The motions are merely a particular characteristic response for a given physical configuration.
That is probably the best summation of the general nature of finding the ikkyo line shape in a movement -- adopting a given physical configuration that provides a particular characteristic response.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:36 AM   #367
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
"It" (kokyu) works "behind" the push.
Does kokyu work differently in Karate? In Tachi? In the the Koryu? In Sumo? Are there different kokyu's? No. So therefore the discussion of baseline skillsets involving ki, kokyu training, etc., has nothing to do with your persistent waza-based discussion or with your point that no resistance is ever used in Aikido. For the umpteenth time, Erick.... you need to go find someone that can show you these things and how to do them. *IF* they're even interested in showing you.

And incidentally, your idea of doddering weak old men ... this form of strength/body-skills gives you physical power that does not rely on muscles, etc., but it is still a measureable strength. There seems to be a great confusion among many westerners about "don't use muscle" aka "don't use strength"... it means not to use normal strength but to use the jin/kokyu and the ki-developed power. Not some slack-muscled, atrophied, dearth of power.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:24 PM   #368
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Does kokyu work differently in Karate? In Tachi? In the the Koryu? In Sumo? Are there different kokyu's? No.
An unremarkable truth. They do, however, find definitive uses for it that differ in emphasis and attitude.

And then we get an immediate a conclusion that simply does not follow from the fact stated:.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So therefore the discussion of baseline skillsets involving ki, kokyu training, etc., has nothing to do with your persistent waza-based discussion or with your point that no resistance is ever used in Aikido.
Show me an art where joints do not rotate to move the limbs. Acknowledging and closely studying this fundamental requirement of biomechanics, conceptually, and practically, and examining them in traditional movements is not "waza." And saying it does not make it so.

Saotome said we should do that:
Quote:
Saotome wrote:
All creatures and all creation, visible and the invisible, whose workings and meaning are beyond human knowing, exist in accord with the laws of the natural world. By seeing clearly into these phenomena, we can begin to perceive the true meaning of budo.
Ushiro said we should do that by explorign the tradition with fresh eyes, not :
Quote:
Ushiro wrote:
Through the techniques that comprise our budo heritage, we have the opportunity, and at the same time the obligation, to seek answers to the same questions as did the founders. I believe that vitalizing this essence in the context of our life today embodies the meaning of budo origins .... in bujutsu karate, entering into the opponent - while at the same time removing the option for them to attack or defend - is our primary concern.... While striking blows involve the shock of a collision, non-strikes do not transmit any shock at all. In the latter, you find embodied the essence of unification that underlies true bujutsu karate.

This unification arises paradoxically from the power of a strong attack, or the potential of a strong impact. Unification or harmonization itself is not primary in this case. Rather, it is the absolute control of distance and timing that allows you to validate both yourself and your opponent. Kata practice in karate presents a particularly effective means to research these principles.
Ikeda said likewise:
Quote:
Ikeda wrote:
When studying a martial art, of course learning techniques is important; however, along with that, it is important to develop mental, energetic, and breath power through training and application. The attitude of many people studying martial arts seems to be that it is enough to train only techniques and not the fundamental martial spirit that vitalizes them.
The most fundamental martial spirit is :: "to win without fighting." Resistance to force is the epitome of fighting. Kokyu training allows one to feel the practical reality of there being no opponent, of your training partner being absolutely no obstacle to your movement. Of there being no contest of strength from the moment of the attack.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And incidentally, your idea of doddering weak old men ... this form of strength/body-skills gives you physical power that does not rely on muscles, etc., but it is still a measureable strength. There seems to be a great confusion among many westerners about "don't use muscle" aka "don't use strength"... it means not to use normal strength but to use the jin/kokyu and the ki-developed power.
Not my idea. Ikeda's idea. Read the article.

And Muscles? I never said "muscles" No. I said structure. Resistance involves all structure capable of taking strain, not merely muscular actuation to increase resisting strain with counter-force. In so many aikido techniques -- once the parties have engaged and beguna their struggle -- I point out that in doing it properly it is usually the first one to "give up" who wins.

The structure of the ninety year-old chinese gentleman in the video, or of O Sensei in his latter years, are unavoidably compromised by the rigors of age. They have a finite and severely diminished capacity to take up strain in their structure in resistance to force without breaking. If took strain in my shoulder now that I was capable of in my twenties, I would tear something badly. Fortunately, I don't have to. I can do far more now that I could then and my structure, while still pretty good for my age is still noticeably weaker in critical components than it was.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Not some slack-muscled, atrophied, dearth of power.
You should feel my "slack muscled, atrophied, dearth of power" punch, or bokken strike, sometime. Maybe you would think better of me.

Power? You want power? The canonical definition in physics is the amount of work done or energy transferred per unit of time. The simplest way to inrease or dissipate applied energy is to change the geometry of the tranmission, as I have illustrated.

I can demonstrate that the kokyu action traditionally seen in aikido (and the related high level karate controls illustrated by Ushiro in his article) develop power by changing centers of action and thereby simultaneously adjusting inertial moment and angular velocity -- modulating kinetic energy by the product of the inverse square of the moment radius and square of the angular velocity involved. Halved radius squares the angular velocity and double the angular velocity you get the square of the velocity in energy increase

2^2 x 2^2 = 16

a 16-fold multiplier, without additional input energy, just by controlling the center(s) of action, which is the root concept of Aikido. Show me mechanics that gets you the same or better in more fundamental terms within our art or any art. Tendons will not do that.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:36 PM   #369
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'll archive that one for posterity, Erick. As usual, you're missing the point. And once again, yes, your discussion about joints, torques, rotational moments is fine.... but unfortunately it also applies to everything, so in terms of jin/kokyu discussions it also talks about nothing.

Your quotes can be interpretted also in the same sense that you don't understand. I suggest once more that you go seek someone who can show you what you're so obviously missing.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:44 PM   #370
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I suggest once more that you go seek someone who can show you what you're so obviously missing.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
perhaps you could recommend someone.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:16 PM   #371
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As usual, you're missing the point. And once again, yes, your discussion about joints, torques, rotational moments is fine.... but unfortunately it also applies to everything, so in terms of jin/kokyu discussions it also talks about nothing.
Which response itself means absolutely nothing. If it is overbroad, which you imply, tell us why, in this context.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Your quotes can be interpretted also in the same sense that you don't understand. I suggest once more that you go seek someone who can show you what you're so obviously missing.
Arguing, from assumption and innuendo, rather than any evidence, that I am not qualified or "worthy" to debate with the likes of you, is by way of ad hominem argument, fairly transparent.

It is not a substitute for actually answering the points I raised, or providing a mechnical model to show that mine is off-base if you disagree with it. One might reasonably infer from that response that you do not have any answer.

I'll wait and see. You can keep saying the rhetorical equivalent of "Shut up!" as long as you like. Or -- we can try to have a civil conversation on the merits of our respective positions.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:35 PM   #372
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Arguing, from assumption and innuendo, rather than any evidence, that I am not qualified or "worthy" to debate with the likes of you, is by way of ad hominem argument, fairly transparent.
Hmmmm.... I don't think that's an accurate statement. What is really happening is that because you don't have the same baseline skills we're talking about, your arguments seem perfectly logical to me. I could make some perfectly logical-sounding arguments about torts which would indeed follow a pleasant-sounding logic but which would give away my lack of expertise to anyone with real legal experience. This is a good analogy for what is happening here... you sound pleasant and knowledgeable to your own ears, but your lack of experience is pretty obvious. Just as you wouldn't feel particularly motivated to give me long, detailed reasons of why my basic tort knowledge is lacking, I don't see where much would be gained in a prolonged discssion using your demand-rules of discourse about kokyu. Maybe that will help you understand my perspective.
Quote:
Or -- we can try to have a civil conversation on the merits of our respective positions.
Or you can take my advice and go see someone who can provide you with some information. Frankly, I still fail to feel compelled to engage in a discussion that follows your insistant demands of conformity. You've pretty much balked yourself into a standstill.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-04-2007 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:42 PM   #373
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
perhaps you could recommend someone.
Frankly, Ricky, I would suggest that people find someone who *can* show more than just basic-level stuff and then find out if those people are willing to show anything. At the moment, I'd suggest that people first go get a feel for what is happening... try visiting Ushiro Sensei.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:30 PM   #374
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What is really happening is that because you don't have the same baseline skills we're talking about...
See, there is one difference between you and me -- I do not make the error of underestimating my opponents, especially in this setting.

But please, continue.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:41 PM   #375
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
See, there is one difference between you and me -- I do not make the error of underestimating my opponents, especially in this setting.
Ah..... could you suggest the name of someone that will vouch for your having these baseline skillsets, Erick? I know some of your mutual acquaintances and they have not been quietly emailing me to assure me that you have these expertises. Maybe all of us are underestimating you and you've been hiding these skills? Whaddya think?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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