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Old 02-01-2007, 11:42 PM   #326
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
When I was much younger, my brother taught me how to shoot hoops... in 5mins... he demonstrated and explained how to use the ground as a springboard... how to use the elbow as a lever... how to transfer the throw from ground to elbow to fingers to hoop.... in 5mins I was getting the desired lift in the ball that I didn't have before. Sure my aim sucked at first, but half an hour of practice later, I sucked a little less...

So.... why can't kokyu-ho or any other "technique" be explained in the same way?
A nice brotherly image. I envy you.

If kokyu is purely a visible physical skill, then I grant you that it should be easily explained. But if it involves things one cannot see, then it becomes much more difficult a task. Just what this task is will also become difficult to discern, as a blind man attempts to describe the color red to another blind man.

Cheers,
Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 12:09 AM   #327
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
If kokyu is purely a visible physical skill, then I grant you that it should be easily explained. But if it involves things one cannot see, then it becomes much more difficult a task. Just what this task is will also become difficult to discern, as a blind man attempts to describe the color red to another blind man.
So, are you saying that if something is happening externally it can be explained easily...and that something happening internally is harder to explain since it is also difficult to discern?

But... wait a minute... if you are cognizant and aware of what is happening internally, why would it be difficult to discern what it is... even if you have to use analogies and metaphors to point at it?

This is why we're only talking about baseline skill... and Mike has attempted to explain how someone can get their foot in the door to these baseline skills.

Are you saying that kokyu-ho is more than a baseline skill and that it defies explanation because there is more happening internally that cannot be adequately described?

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 03:09 AM   #328
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
What I meant is that from what I understand of the description you gave, it sounded like the kokyu waza we do in the dojo every class. It's just that some people are better at it than others. But to say it clearly, yes, I think I can do what I believe you described.

So let me get this straight: the kokyu ho you do in every class runs like this--tori's hands are outstretched at chest height, palm down, fingers open. Back is straight, coccyx is tucked in. Tori will not rotate his forearms. Uke comes in with his hands grasping the sides of tori's wrists, trying to keep his own elbows close to his body so that he is harder to move. Nonetheless, tori can use the expansion of his hara to create the power (transmitted through his arms) to pop uke up, break his connection to the ground and make him easy to move. How does your sensei teach this? Sounds like an advanced dojo you've got there.


RAUL
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:50 AM   #329
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
So let me get this straight: the kokyu ho you do in every class runs like this--tori's hands are outstretched at chest height, palm down, fingers open. Back is straight, coccyx is tucked in. Tori will not rotate his forearms. Uke comes in with his hands grasping the sides of tori's wrists, trying to keep his own elbows close to his body so that he is harder to move. Nonetheless, tori can use the expansion of his hara to create the power (transmitted through his arms) to pop uke up, break his connection to the ground and make him easy to move. How does your sensei teach this? Sounds like an advanced dojo you've got there.


RAUL
Hi Raul,

Sounds fairly right the way you describe it. "pop uke up" is a bit vague, but if you mean bring off balance and throw down usually to left or right and pin, then yes. We usually hold our hands vertically though.

I'm not really familiar with other dojo. I've only trained in two. My teacher supervises mostly these days and said he turns 79 this month.(I was wrong when I posted his age sometime back.) There are 5 7th dan and 5 6th dan who train regularly(Had to look that up.) Learning is sempai-kohai hands on and all in Japanese. So when I say I don't have the English words to impart "how" some things are done, it's true. I like it here at this dojo. It feels right and I consider myself lucky. I also CAN'T do everything my sempai do. But they try to teach me and I try to learn.

Cheers,
Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:02 AM   #330
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ki in Daily Life
ISBN. 0-87040-436-9 Published in 1978 by Ki no Kenkyukai distributed by Kodansha International
Out of curiosity, what do you think of Tohei's book: "Kiatsu"
http://www.ki-society.com/english/renew/book.html
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:15 AM   #331
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
So, are you saying that if something is happening externally it can be explained easily...and that something happening internally is harder to explain since it is also difficult to discern?

But... wait a minute... if you are cognizant and aware of what is happening internally, why would it be difficult to discern what it is... even if you have to use analogies and metaphors to point at it?

This is why we're only talking about baseline skill... and Mike has attempted to explain how someone can get their foot in the door to these baseline skills.

Are you saying that kokyu-ho is more than a baseline skill and that it defies explanation because there is more happening internally that cannot be adequately described?
I believe there is more happening than can be seen. Yes. "...defies explanation" I didn't say. Try not to read more into what I say or don't say. I'm a fairly straight forward kind a guy. I said it is more difficult to explain, for me. And please, Ignatius, be realistic here, if it were easy to see and explain, there wouldn't be 15 odd pages here and no definitive answer?

At any rate, Ignatius, I did explain... the way I know how to. You disallowed me the use of my chosen vocabulary/imagery/ideas and suggest it is something else. Perhaps it is. Please tell me what. That's what I'm here for, to learn. I'm sorry you disagree with my choice of words, but that is how I learned so that is what I said. To me, it is a feeling. If it feels different to you, that's okay by me. If you have other words to describe it better, I'll listen.

As for Mike, I have said that I like his explanation and am interested in hearing more. I even like his exercise.

Cheers,
Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:49 AM   #332
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Since I've had very little to do with "Tohei's Style Breathing Methods", I'll pass on commenting. What was interesting to me was the comparative "softness" of Ushiro sensei's sanchin, compared to, say the Goju guys that I've trained with from the Miyagi-Higaonna line. And what's up with the shime - where they smack the practitioner in various places???

Perhaps a question would be how is kokyu in aikido different or similar to say, punching and kiai-ing in horse stance???
It would be difficult to answer that accurately, Ignatius, because different people in Aikido use slightly different approaches to developing Kokyu; the range of "muscularity" will vary over a spectrum. Same is true of karate. Let's compare kokyu to some "muscle" in your body, as an example... different people will develop that muscle using different approaches, different amounts of stiffness, different amounts of integrating it into the movements of the rest of the body, etc. Regardless, at heart it's all the same principle, but one that can be cultivated and expressed in different ways. Ushiro's kokyu may feel quite different from anything Tohei does, but the core principle is the same.

That being said, Tohei's approach is radically different from Ushiro's in many respects.

One of the massive, unspoken aspects of all these discussions has to do with the hara and how it's used, but that would be outside of this thread and difficult to talk about without physically demonstrating things.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:54 AM   #333
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well Erick... perhaps you should take Frank Doran's advice....
I don't know Doran Sensei or what he can do. I had an opportunity to feel what one of his students could do and my extrapolation is that they're more mechanically oriented. The reason I'm saying that is not because of Doran or others, but because when someone is introduced into a conversation because they are a "name", I often am not convinced we should go there. If we stick to Ueshiba, Tohei, Abe, and a few other known quantities in terms of the ki/kokyu skills, I would personally feel more comfortable. (Feel free to raspberry me).

Regards,

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:05 AM   #334
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you think of Tohei's book: "Kiatsu"
http://www.ki-society.com/english/renew/book.html
Well, it's sort of like "Simplified Shiatsu with a Twist". I'm not a fan of it. Granted, Tohei is getting into more of how ki manipulation is done in real shiatsu (rather than just poking acupuncture points), but I don't think Kiatsu is very complete or effective. His anecdotals are fairly self-serving and not helpful, IMO.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:10 AM   #335
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
From memories of the wooden floor, I recall sanchin as an attempt to unify the mind and body and become rooted and immovable. The smacking/hitting/kicking is an attempt to knock them off balance or show that their body is not working in unison. Perhaps similar to pushing on Mr. Sum in various places and angles.
Hi Eddie:

The smacking of someone doing Sanchin from all angles has more to do with making sure that the practitioner is maintaining the 3 battling (contradictory) jin-force-planes while moving. The better you get at maintaining those forces (for all practical purposes, it's just a variation of "extend ki", BTW), the more forces can be dealt with.

Technically, the 6-directions exercises that come from Akuzawa via Rob are the same thing, except that they're static.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:57 AM   #336
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Eddie:

The smacking of someone doing Sanchin from all angles has more to do with making sure that the practitioner is maintaining the 3 battling (contradictory) jin-force-planes while moving.

Technically, the 6-directions exercises that come from Akuzawa via Rob are the same thing, except that they're static.

Regards,

Mike
Hi Mike,

Are we in the same circle or what. I just looked into E-Budo and was reading what you wrote about sanchin. Tried to watch the linked video http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html but am lacking some quicktime plug-ins. Which, I'm not sure. Bummer, too.

Sorry to say I am unfamiliar with the 3 battling jin-force-planes. I do know that when I did it years ago, it felt like a battle. Haven't seen a clip, but I was smacked every which way until things just seemed to come together out of their own accord, and I was solid, in every direction. Then I must have blinked, and my arms were like spaghetti again. It would be interesting to try again at this point having studied aikido and feeling more centered than I did ages ago.

Is there a description/explanation on-line you could point me to? Also, I'm not familiar with this 6 direction exercise Rob speaks of.

TIA,
Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:27 AM   #337
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
Tried to watch the linked video http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html but am lacking some quicktime plug-ins.
Well, those are good clips of Sanchin (aka "San Jan" in the original Chinese that the Okinawans learned it from). Notice how soft it is. Ushiro Sensei is harder, but not as hard as the Uechi Ryu people on Okinawa. In other words, the "muscle-to-jin" ratio varies, according to the way different styles have interpretted, specialized, etc. The same question of "muscle-to-jin" ratio arises when learning the kokyu/jin skills of Ushiro Sensei and comparing those skills with what Ueshiba and others used in Aikido originally.
Quote:
Is there a description/explanation on-line you could point me to? Also, I'm not familiar with this 6 direction exercise Rob speaks of.
Well, the 6-directions stuff is outside of the "baseline skills"... the point is that we can always point back to the ki and kokyu skills as baseline and develop all other skills, including whatever skills derive from techniques and motion, because the ki and kokyu skills MUST be the basis for all techniques or the techniques are wrong (no matter how "effective" someone describes certain techniques).

You haven't read Rob John's deathless prose??? Good heavens, that's tantamount to admitting you've never read a Superman comic book.

I'll see if I can find some URL's and pm you with them.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-02-2007, 01:35 PM   #338
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Well Erick... perhaps you should take Frank Doran's advice....
Quote:
Frank Doran wrote:
Look beyond technique and discover the principle that gives it life.
Because that is precisely what we're trying to do, amidst your interjections and tangential arguments...
Interjections (irimi) and tangentials (tenkan). Those are the principles. I have it on good authority, confirmed by experience.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Yes, it (principle) may just be "an idea", but it is a idea that begs further exploration - off the mat. Which is what some of us are trying to do here, using the appropriate medium.
No actually, you are not using an appropriate medium. The appropriate medium is one in which the basic terms of reference are already clearly understood by the audience you are addressing before you begin the dicussion to elaborate their operation in particular circumstances.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
... since it is quite obvious that you have NO IDEA what the principle is that we are talking about anyway....
Please. The problem is that your desired audience has no idea what YOU are talking about. The terms of reference are too obscure.

Last night we did standing kokyu tanden ho -- from two hand grab as warmup for some rank beginners, as we have done in the past and in my own background. It is virtually indistinguishable from the main movement in the san jan/san chin, and probably for very good reason . We also did kokyu tanden exercise from a shomenuchi engagement posture as preface to shomenuchi ikkyo and iriminage.

If you want people like that to hear you -- you need to speak a language they are prepared to hear. Not one you prefer to talk in. Or, if the discussion does necessarily become detailed at least one they can learn with some reasonably available independent resources, so they can try to keep up.

You are obscuring your valid points by esoteric usage. MY point is that your discussion in an aikido forum of sanchin or sanjan or all the other Chinese stuff is misplaced (and I get it better than most here, since I studied for a degree in it). Valid though it may be so far as it goes, it will result in your continuing to bemoan the fact, five years hence that no one is listening to you -- and still labors in the sad error of their ways.

MY approach to common ground may be "technical" in looking to mechanics. But that has an utterly neutral and easily verifiable knowledge base. It is freely available online for the most part and is not metaphorical. It is not subject to differences of opinion about the root terms of discussion (avoiding the ceaseless debates about different flavors of jin and whether we are really "reeling silk" or "pulling silk.", for instance).

It IS in the aikido curriculum, but it is equally true that sloppy practice or sloppy teaching may overlook or skip over the significance of the things that are there -- if one is paying attention to what one is actually doing or teaching. There is no reason to be hunting underneath the street lamp across the road for the car keys you lost here in the bushes, merely because the light makes the search easier on your eyes. The keys are really still over here in the bushes, and any keys you do find over there are unlikely to fit the intended purposes as well, if at all, as the ones you did not look for hard enough over here.

Find some common ground for discussion and seeking here in the bushes, or find yourselves talking pointlessly amongst yourselves across the road by the lamppost -- there really is no other alternative.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #339
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
I just looked into E-Budo and was reading what you wrote about sanchin. Tried to watch the linked video http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html but am lacking some quicktime plug-ins. Which, I'm not sure. Bummer, too.
Try DIVX. It works.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-02-2007, 05:11 PM   #340
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Find some common ground for discussion and seeking here in the bushes, or find yourselves talking pointlessly amongst yourselves across the road by the lamppost -- there really is no other alternative.
Hmmmm.... how many people do you envision in this group that you've banished across the road, Erick? You realize that the number of people who understand the ki/kokyu/jin/etc paradigm is not just one or two readers of this list, don't you? Your views are quite a bit more singular and unique than those of the people you're figuratively banishing.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-02-2007, 05:24 PM   #341
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Thanks Eric. The plug-in still didn't work with quicktime, but when I pasted the url in the divx player, I was able to see the vids.

Mike, other than the lighter stances and some larger circular moves, the movements remind me very much of the style of karate I learned a half-life ago, done a little softer. The hand techniques were quite crisp and everyone seemed very centered. The weapons kata was impressive. That thing must way a ton! Interesting to see how he wielded it with his body movement and not his strength. Although I have no doubt that he is one strong old man! The positioning of the arms reminds of aikido so it appears to me that there are hard and soft things happening simultaneously. Perhaps an overall kokyu feel/frame and localized harder technique. Kinda makes me wanna dust off my kata.

Good stuff,
Eddie
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:00 PM   #342
raul rodrigo
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Find some common ground for discussion and seeking here in the bushes, or find yourselves talking pointlessly amongst yourselves across the road by the lamppost -- there really is no other alternative.

No offense, Erick, but I find I have an easier time understanding people like Mike and Ignatius than you. Despite the fact that i don't have a background in the chinese internal arts. The common ground for discussion is in fact in the baseline skills and body training. I.e., you start with things like funekogi and kokyu ho and move forward from there. Your approach is harder for me to get. When I did, for instance, one of Dan Harden's body exercises, i got what he means. in my country, we have a saying: its hard to wake the people who are pretending to be asleep.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:17 PM   #343
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It would be difficult to answer that accurately, Ignatius, because different people in Aikido use slightly different approaches to developing Kokyu; the range of "muscularity" will vary over a spectrum. Same is true of karate. Let's compare kokyu to some "muscle" in your body, as an example... different people will develop that muscle using different approaches, different amounts of stiffness, different amounts of integrating it into the movements of the rest of the body, etc. Regardless, at heart it's all the same principle, but one that can be cultivated and expressed in different ways. Ushiro's kokyu may feel quite different from anything Tohei does, but the core principle is the same.
My bad, I realized how poorly framed the question was... but I'm glad you picked up on it, because the question is how does one know one is not using "muscle" and using "something else" (kokyu/jin/ki/wathaveyou). Obviously "some" muscle is involved, particularly in the beginning... and obviously the ratio of "muscle" to kokyu/jin would be different for different people - at different levels and stages.

Someone once told me it was easier to go from "hard" to "soft" than from "soft" to "hard". Is that relevant to what we're talking about in terms of baseline skill?

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:29 PM   #344
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The problem is that your desired audience has no idea what YOU are talking about. The terms of reference are too obscure....If you want people like that to hear you -- you need to speak a language they are prepared to hear. Not one you prefer to talk in. Or, if the discussion does necessarily become detailed at least one they can learn with some reasonably available independent resources, so they can try to keep up.....You are obscuring your valid points by esoteric usage.
Hmmmm..... isn't it funny how people hear what they want to hear... interesting how others like Raul "get" this and you don't, Erick.

I'm not speaking Chinese or Greek... I'm talking about the CORE of funekogi, the CORE of kokyu-ho, the CORE of tekubi furi... if you understood what that CORE is, you would know that that CORE pervades every single Asian martial art... that is what we're getting at - BASEline skills. Maybe you simply don't understand the terms of reference?

It is the CORE that drives ALL aikido techniques from ikkyo to whathaveyou-nage.

I'm well aware of seeing the forest for the trees. The question is, can you see the solitary tree in the forest?

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:44 PM   #345
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmm.... how many people do you envision in this group that you've banished across the road, Erick?
I didn't suggest any sort of fence. It was a voluntary migration all around.

I simply point out that the thing you are looking for outside of aikido (and for whatever reason you did not find it here) -- is in fact -- also here. Sanchin is merely the nmost recent example of things you keep saying we're missing, that I end up showing you are actually here in the traditional modes, and in the physcial action that thesearts do share. You just missed out on finding it here, and therefore looked elsewhere -- perhaps not unreasonably, given your experience -- but perhaps judging the situation a bit unfairly, if your experience was not necessarily representative.

If you read Ushiro's comments for the summer camp in conjunction wiht those of Ikeda and Doran you will see that it represents a coming together and recognition of mutual need to deal with trends (institutional entropy essentially) in these arts toward their respective poles of emphasis, whereas their common ground is the root from which they all spring. I don't deny that there is that common ground. I just don't see any evidence there is anything wrong or deficient with aikido. There may be a lot wrong or defeicient with various people's aikido. And the rest of us should not be so parochial as to reject other experiences out of hand. But that does not mean we accept just anything uncritically as being appropriate to aikido training either
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You realize that the number of people who understand the ki/kokyu/jin/etc paradigm is not just one or two readers of this list, don't you? Your views are quite a bit more singular and unique than those of the people you're figuratively banishing.
I willl admit that I seem to be alone here in seeking a comprehensive mechnical description of the physical actions involved in aikido. A fact which I continue to find quite astonishing, actually. There certainly must be people in aikido with mechanical backgrounds deeper than mine who ought to be able to do better. That none have come to light in my research or turned up as referecnes from any of the people contesting (legitimately) technical points I have made here is nothing short of shocking to me.

This effort I see as part of what Doran Sensei and Ikeda Sensei are talking about. Points of view that take us away from preoccupation with airy metaphor (which I love as much as the next guy) and get some concrete description and rigorous physicality into the mix of understanding.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:45 PM   #346
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Eddie deGuzman wrote:
I believe there is more happening than can be seen. Yes. "...defies explanation" I didn't say. Try not to read more into what I say or don't say. I'm a fairly straight forward kind a guy. I said it is more difficult to explain, for me. And please, Ignatius, be realistic here, if it were easy to see and explain, there wouldn't be 15 odd pages here and no definitive answer?

At any rate, Ignatius, I did explain... the way I know how to. You disallowed me the use of my chosen vocabulary/imagery/ideas and suggest it is something else.
Hi Eddie, no offense given and none taken... I'm not sure that I "disallowed" you the use of your chosen vocabulary/images/ideas... I'm merely suggesting that such regurgitated explanations are becoming jaded for me, and that it is still at a level of describing the externalities of how the exercise is done.

Whilst I agree that the explanation and description of the internals might be more difficult, it is still possible to do so, as Mike has attempted to using the analogy of ground forces acting on a tensegrity structure.

What we're trying to get to is the CORE that is kokyu-ho (or whatever exercise) - i.e. the baseline skill. If we cannot even identify what this core is, how can we expect to teach this stuff effectively?

Are we then resigned to continue practicing without knowing indefinitely, until we "get" it???

Last edited by eyrie : 02-02-2007 at 06:48 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:38 PM   #347
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Hmmmm..... isn't it funny how people hear what they want to hear... interesting how others like Raul "get" this and you don't, Erick.

I'm not speaking Chinese or Greek... I'm talking about the CORE of funekogi, the CORE of kokyu-ho, the CORE of tekubi furi... if you understood what that CORE is, you would know that that CORE pervades every single Asian martial art... that is what we're getting at - BASEline skills. Maybe you simply don't understand the terms of reference?

It is the CORE that drives ALL aikido techniques from ikkyo to whathaveyou-nage.
Yeah, so I do that. Ho-hum. The question is whether there is a more rigorous way to describe the prinicples of its operation .When the closest you all can come to actual physical description of the thing that is in tekubi furi and in kokyuho, and in funekogi is:
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
"something else" (kokyu/jin/ki/wathaveyou)
or resorting to "jin" or "kokyu" both of which are largely metaphorical even in their own context, then there is a plain problem in reaching people with these ideas in the terms of ordinary language. I frankly think ordinary language is not adequate to the task except in metaphor or metaphor reduced to jargon. Technical languge may not suffer the same deficits

Don't get me wrong, jargon is very useful, but only as a shorthand for what everybody in the discussion has already agreed on a meaning. So if you are irrevocably reduced to jargon, it might be nice to have a jargon that actually has a rigorous, physical basis that is universally available, and not reasonably disputabel,at least as to the terms of description. Especially when you are trying to discuss and describe the "something else" you are trying to promote to others who may not yet have experienced oit for themesleves, and thus have no basis to join or usefully engage the premises of the agreed terminology .
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Ignatius Teo wrote:
I'm well aware of seeing the forest for the trees. The question is, can you see the solitary tree in the forest?
However, we are talking about the essential elements of what makes a "tree." Are you familiar with the Vitruvian Man? You can plainly see the circle, and the square. Look a little harder and you may see the triangles. Do you know where the spiral is represented? If you think this is irrelevant -- then you are focussed on but one branch of that one tree.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:46 PM   #348
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I'm merely suggesting that such regurgitated explanations are becoming jaded for me, and that it is still at a level of describing the externalities of how the exercise is done.

Whilst I agree that the explanation and description of the internals might be more difficult, it is still possible to do so, as Mike has attempted to using the analogy of ground forces acting on a tensegrity structure.
Which has some structural appeal, I'll admit. But only in static terms. Dynamically it is irrelevant, because the meta-structure of the connected parts, their degree of freedom and the means of control dictates the dynamic, not the structural nature of the connections.
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Ignatius Teo wrote:
If we cannot even identify what this core is, how can we expect to teach this stuff effectively?
An excellent question.
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Ignatius Teo wrote:
Are we then resigned to continue practicing without knowing indefinitely, until we "get" it???
Well, it worked for me and for generations before me. And it will have to continue working that way until a really rigorous mechanical basis is established. Bottom line, I trust the tradition until the physics catches up.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:59 PM   #349
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Dynamically it is irrelevant, because the meta-structure of the connected parts, their degree of freedom and the means of control dictates the dynamic, not the structural nature of the connections.
You still don't get it... that's why we're talking about BASELINE skills... based on CORE principles which are the same whether it is applied statically or dynamically...

Quote:
Well, it worked for me and for generations before me. And it will have to continue working that way until a really rigorous mechanical basis is established. Bottom line, I trust the tradition until the physics catches up.
Thanks, but no thanks... I prefer not to wallow in mediocrity... nor do I expect that of the people that expect me to show them what Aikido is... should be and can be.

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:26 PM   #350
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I'm merely suggesting that such regurgitated explanations are becoming jaded for me, and that it is still at a level of describing the externalities of how the exercise is done.

What we're trying to get to is the CORE that is kokyu-ho (or whatever exercise) - i.e. the baseline skill. If we cannot even identify what this core is, how can we expect to teach this stuff effectively?

Are we then resigned to continue practicing without knowing indefinitely, until we "get" it???
Hello Ignatius,

"Regurgitated explanations" in and of themselves surely are of no practical use. I felt the same way at first. But the more I feel that I do right, the more I see why they are used. I didn't create them and I'm not even saying that it's the right way or even efficient.

I fully agree that this core is not easily defined and I make no claim that I can define it. It would be great to find the words, agreeable words to all, but I doubt that will happen. I don't fault anyone for trying to define it or create exercises to help develop it. I applaud them as diligent martial artists and conscientious teachers. But if someone doesn't agree with or understand a principle or definition or method, that doesn't mean that the discussion should be abandoned.

I find Mike's tensegrity structure appealing as a descriptor and I also find Eric's thoughts on biomechanics intriguing, especially the lever and movable fulcrum. Both seem like ways to describe certain aspects of what I am learning. And I find the two thoughts complimentary. They do not describe everything in aikido that I am studying, however(At least at my currrent understanding of it). And this in no way implies that I believe that what they have spoken about is the only thing they know. That would be a foolish assumption on my part.

Happy weekend
Eddie
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