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Old 01-29-2007, 04:27 PM   #276
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
I remember the pictures and diagrams, and so very much else. You might be being selective in describing the nature of your posts.
If you're talking about the use of the term "vectors", I used it descriptively, not as a part of any mathematics.
Quote:
Again, I have no conflict with the skillset you've mentioned, only a question as to its suitability as Aikido basics. And incidentally, I have no reports on Rob and Dan, but from what I've heard from Ikeda sensei and other practitioners, Ushiro is not focusing on the same thing at all.
Precisely. If you knew or your instructor knew, this wouldn't be a "here's my opinion" conversation, Brion.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:14 PM   #277
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As I said, a conversation about reeling silk internal strength is not really germane to Aikido. It's particularly not germane to a thread topic about "Baseline skillset", IMO.
Great! We agree that it is not very germane to basic skills, and then we can ignore the recommendation that you just made that we ought to consider it.

Perhaps you would care to elaborate on a couple of minor points about "silk reeling," and the fundamentals of the fascial "skills" that you posit as basic to aikido (and all martial arts).
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... there are indeed these skills/body-abilities, so we can still talk about them, whether we're using western terms like "ground path", fascia, etc., or to clarify that we're talking about the skills referred to traditionally, we can sparingly use the terms ki, qi, jin, kokyu, etc.
So, if I get this right, we can knowledgeably and rightfully talk about the ki/kokyu skills, because they can be shown to exist (IF someone knows how to do them), but all the other "things that are Ki", like the "Ki of Heaven", etc., from the old beliefs won't fly as "valid descriptions of Ki".... because they don't exist in reality.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=144
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Silk", as in "Silk Reeling", "Pulling Silk", "Eight Pieces of Silk (brocade)", etc., refer to the fascia/connective-tissue/membranes. You work them with stretches, breathing, twisting (as in 'silk reeling'), but always in a way that does it from head to toe, fingertips and toes included.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=25

So, if the fascial "skills" you are talking about are so essential to jin/ kokyu, then I guess we need the most "pure" usages to train baseline skillsets to avoid belaboring my pointless "waza" and "techniques," I suppose. Obviously, that should not include "silk reeling," as you say:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... reeling silk winds the body in the way it naturally winds as the force behind its jin; pulling silk is a linear in-out usage of jin. Theoretically, for complex reasons I'd rather not try to write out, reeling silk is the only solution to "pure" usage of the jin, so anyone who uses jin/kokyu who doesn't use winding/spiralling would technically be admitting to a lapse ...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=28

And I guess my point about the ultimate evolution of the kokyu connection into into the "twitch" of kokyu tanden ho at contact -- once you "get" the applicaton of kokyu in its proper form -- is just completely off base:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, let me take out the "forces" part of ki, the "jin/kokyu" things for a second, in order to make things clearer. [It's a justifiable thing to excerpt because you can build up Ki and not have any 'forces' skills, as was demonstrated when Tohei pushed over those monks to prove god-knows-what] If you take that part out, you're left with an ability within the fascia and autonomic muscle functions that is somewhat related to the way a horse can quiver it's flanks, etc. (there's more to it than that, but I'm simply hurrying to make a point so I'm oversimplifying)
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=115
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well it's one of those things that in order to understand what's happening, you'd have to already have acquired some jin/kokyu skills and some development of the "ki" structure in the sense of the fascia.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=84

Apparently, this poor country lawyer cannot comprehend what you say when you say it.

Maybe we should talk about irimi/tenkan prinicples in kokyu instead, then. .

I'll start -- or perhaps I have already made a small demonstration.



No offense, Mike. I forget many things, but lines of argument are not among them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:17 PM   #278
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hi again,
Vectors not mathematics. Got it.
As for the "if you knew or your instructor knew," you are moving merrily between the particular and the universal, and leaving undefined references in your wake.
I was not offering an opinion, only offering some admittedly-secondhand-but-from-credtable-sources information which appears to contradict, at least in part, what you said. If you believe that information is incorrect, I'd love to hear about it. I haven't studied with Ushiro sensei, so all I can profer is what I have. In any event, that tidbit has no relation to what I or my instructor might or might not know in other contexts.
Regards,
Brion
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:26 PM   #279
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I believe I even wrote some while back about the nature of the human stability system having the dual eccentic hips gyrating the center of mass in a chaotic orbit shaped roughly like a warped figure-eight, citing to some balance studies as support:....Ignatius bowed out at that point in the earlier conversation, as I recall. Perhaps he will reconsider, now.
If you're talking about this study: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/9908/9908185.pdf, I bowed out then because I could not fathom how you arrived at a conclusion of "dual eccentric hip gyrating the center of mass in a chaotic orbit shaped roughly like a warped figure-eight".

If you're referring to Figure 1. in that study, which plots the upper body's random meandering path in the plane of the anteroposterior (front-to-back) coordinate and mediolateral (side-to-side) coordinate over one minute.... I still don't see how you inferred that such a random chaotic front-to-back and side-to-side swaying (as in like a pendulum) as gyrational motion (i.e rotation on an axis) - much less a "figure of eight".

I'm going to avoid the math, coz like George, my math sux... but from what I've read and understand, the human balance system uses strategies based on simple harmonics - linear oscillations - not rotational oscillation.

But then again, we're talking about baseline skills and how to develop these baseline skills. So to me, anything discussing balance coping strategies, reeling silk, and gyrational motion are way off-base.

I believe Nick Gudge frequents Aikiweb, and it would be interesting to hear his opinion.

Meanwhile, I remain bowed out of that tangent discussion...

Last edited by eyrie : 01-29-2007 at 05:29 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:49 PM   #280
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Apparently, this poor country lawyer cannot comprehend what you say when you say it.
Apparently not, Erick, since you went to other threads to get those quotes and this thread is about what would comprise a baseline set of skills, not the topics on those other threads. Correct?
Quote:
Maybe we should talk about irimi/tenkan prinicples in kokyu instead, then. .
No one has been able to stop you yet, it seems.
Quote:
I'll start -- or perhaps I have already made a small demonstration.

No offense, Mike. I forget many things, but lines of argument are not among them.
I have no idea exactly what you THINK you've shown, Erick, but from the way you're mixing your subjects up, it's quite obvious that we're back in the territory of you not knowing what you're talking about... again.

Let me see if I can simplify and take a guess at where you're getting confused. There are essentially two things that comprise ki/qi: mental manipulation of force paths and the development of a facial-structure thingamabob that is fairly complex but which involves breathing exercises, stretches, etc. Those would, in essence, be part of the "baseline skills". "Reeling Silk" is a far more sophisticated process than you realize (and I'm not going to waste the time trying to explain it) and it's an extension of the fascial structure thingamabob and jin/kokyu thing combined. Aikido does not use it. Nor doe Aikido use "fa jin", although it is an extension of the same 2 items. See the point? There are a number of skills related to the arbitrary 2 basics that are simply not in Aikido. Trying to discuss them as part of Aikido, in a "baseline skillset" thread, would be extraneous, IMO.

Since the conversation was about baseline skills (in this thread... but not necessarily in the other threads you quoted from). I fail to see where you understand the "line of argument", if you don't understand a simple fact like that.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-29-2007, 06:03 PM   #281
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If you're talking about this study: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/9908/9908185.pdf, I bowed out then because I could not fathom how you arrived at a conclusion of "dual eccentric hip gyrating the center of mass in a chaotic orbit shaped roughly like a warped figure-eight".

If you're referring to Figure 1. in that study, which plots the upper body's random meandering path in the plane of the anteroposterior (front-to-back) coordinate and mediolateral (side-to-side) coordinate over one minute.... I still don't see how you inferred that such a random chaotic front-to-back and side-to-side swaying (as in like a pendulum) as gyrational motion (i.e rotation on an axis) - much less a "figure of eight".
It is not random, it is clearly chaotic, which is just a very, very complex order. Kinda like this -- different system -- same family of chaotic attractor:
http://www.exploratorium.edu/complex...va/lorenz.html

In the phase space diagram (just go with it, really), the whorls you see in the linked Lorenz attractor and the rough radius of them, equate to the linear 2D depiction of the study I showed you (you are correct about figure 1) in the phase space. It would be (very roughly) as if you looked at that Figure 1 diagram edge on from the top of the page downward, in a plane that is horizontal to the page itself. Then you would see the repetitive, and dual ecccentric tendencies of the excursions shown in a shape very much like the Lorenz attractor.

You can see the realtionship between the two types of depictions in this link: The "X(t)" applet (the second one) shows what Figure 1 in the study shows, linear with respect to time. The first applet on the page (X-Z) shows the Lorenz attractor in the phase space. You should run the graphing applets at a fast speed to get the idea.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
From what I've read and understand, the human balance system uses strategies based on simple harmonics - linear oscillations - not rotational oscillation.
Sorry, but that is one of the points of the study, that it does not fit that. One of the other studies that I linked in an ealier discussion showed that the assumption of linear "spring-like" actuation by the leg muscles was actaully the reverse of the linear spring model. The hip orbit dynamic stability model fits with that, the linear static stability model does not.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
But then again, we're talking about baseline skills and how to develop these baseline skills. So to me, anything discussing balance coping strategies, reeling silk, and gyrational motion are way off-base.
More basic than balance. I am essentially saying that kokyu is just the extension of my balance control system into the other guy's balance system. Not as metaphor -- as physical reality.

Really, that is all I am saying.

Admittedly -- in too many words, but I try to back up my arguments.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I believe Nick Gudge frequents Aikiweb, and it would be interesting to hear his opinion.
Look forward to it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:02 PM   #282
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I am essentially saying that kokyu is just the extension of my balance control system into the other guy's balance system. Not as metaphor -- as physical reality.
You could say the same thing about a simple, muscular push, too.

Did I tell you the one about the professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the Odyssey was not written by Homer but by another Greek of the same name?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:21 AM   #283
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I am essentially saying that kokyu is just the extension of my balance control system into the other guy's balance system. Not as metaphor -- as physical reality.
You could say the same thing about a simple, muscular push, too.
... or a 9mm slug, or hitting him with a car at 40 mph, none of which is really aikido, either. In proper kokyu, I have his balance and he is not quite sure where it left his control and entered mine -- I have not merely knocked it over with an excess of energy.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:05 AM   #284
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
In the phase space diagram (just go with it, really), the whorls you see in the linked Lorenz attractor and the rough radius of them, equate to the linear 2D depiction of the study I showed you (you are correct about figure 1) in the phase space. It would be (very roughly) as if you looked at that Figure 1 diagram edge on from the top of the page downward, in a plane that is horizontal to the page itself. Then you would see the repetitive, and dual ecccentric tendencies of the excursions shown in a shape very much like the Lorenz attractor.

You can see the realtionship between the two types of depictions in this link: The "X(t)" applet (the second one) shows what Figure 1 in the study shows, linear with respect to time. The first applet on the page (X-Z) shows the Lorenz attractor in the phase space. You should run the graphing applets at a fast speed to get the idea.
Sorry. Left out the link:
http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~mcc/Chao...on1/Demo8.html
These are also helpful :
http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~mcc/Chao...on1/Demo1.html http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~mcc/Chao...on1/Demo3.html

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-30-2007 at 08:17 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:57 AM   #285
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
... or a 9mm slug, or hitting him with a car at 40 mph, none of which is really aikido, either. In proper kokyu, I have his balance and he is not quite sure where it left his control and entered mine -- I have not merely knocked it over with an excess of energy.
I would have to see it, I suppose. Too often I have seen what I call "smoothe pickups" in Aikido, actually be more of a reflection of cooperative practice than a reality. Think of the video of Tohei wrestling with the dumpy American cameraman back in the 60's. No smoothe "cameraman not quite sure where it left his control and entered Tohei's". I.e., descriptions don't convey reality often.... so I would have to see it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:52 PM   #286
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Did I tell you the one about the professor who spent 40 years of his life trying to prove that the Odyssey was not written by Homer but by another Greek of the same name?
I love that quote, though the way I heard it was that it was "another blind Greek poet of the same name." The added qualifiers, of course, intensify the seeming absurdity of the professor's pursuit. But the implied kicker is that, in the process of this absurd pursuit, that professor might produce an unintended but productive consequence: a clearer look at the big historical picture.
And what does this have to do with basic Aikido skills? Only that principles are very, very subtle things at heart, though the actualizations based on them can be so numerous and complex as to obscure this. That's one reason why this thread, though things can get contentious, is so valuable to me; it encourages me to look deeper.
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Old 01-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #287
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
And what does this have to do with basic Aikido skills? Only that principles are very, very subtle things at heart, though the actualizations based on them can be so numerous and complex as to obscure this.
Hmmmm.... maybe. I think that the principles are not "subtle", insofar as implying nearly "ethereal".... they're fairly straightforward, just like a magic trick after someone shows you how its done. THEN it gets subtle. The real problem that is now affecting a lot of readers on this forum is that they have a vague idea of how things are done, but they don't see the extended complexities and subtleties that they're missing.... i.e., they can't comprehend the idea of being able to miss a large issue in a field in which they've feel they're knowledgeable. IMO.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-30-2007, 03:52 PM   #288
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Sounds like one of those classic paradoxes: Some of the things that are done in certain arts look (and feel) like magic if you don't know what the underlying principles and mechanics are. Then, once revealed, there's the tendency to say... "Oh, THAT'S all there is to it?!"... But then, when you pick apart those elements in earnest, the response is... "Oh, there's more to this than I thought"... and after you have mastered it, you think... "Oh, THAT'S all there is to it?!"... and so on.

Like that old taoist story about "When I was young, a mountain was just a mountain..."

You might enjoy this (slightly OT, but definitely an illustration of the ""magic -> simple mechanics revealed -> sophisticated concept after all" idea:
http://www.handcuffs.org/pollard/
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Old 01-30-2007, 03:58 PM   #289
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hmmmmmmmm, Cady.... so you're into handcuffs, eh?

I agree with what you said, but the possibilities with these skills branch out like a bush, so there are few people who truly get to the "is that all there is to it?" stage. It's truly complex and deep, even though it appears to be just a puddle in the road to the uninitiated. That "puddle" can be the entrance to a set of underwater caves.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:21 PM   #290
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm, Cady.... so you're into handcuffs, eh?
No, I'm more interested in the mechanics of getting out of them (along with other classical forms of prestidigitation).

Quote:
I agree with what you said, but the possibilities with these skills branch out like a bush, so there are few people who truly get to the "is that all there is to it?" stage. It's truly complex and deep, even though it appears to be just a puddle in the road to the uninitiated. That "puddle" can be the entrance to a set of underwater caves.
I agree to a point (note the "And so on. " at the end of my comment -- implying that the process of discovery continues). We can follow a process down to the molecular level, to the extent of it becoming absurd, or at least not of much practical use, but there is --and must be -- an endpoint at which the process is considered "complete" and there are no further depths to plumb. Unless you start to delve into peripheral realms that affect/inform the principles you're enacting, etc.

Sometimes a cigar really is just an exploding cigar.
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:33 PM   #291
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
I agree to a point (note the "And so on. " at the end of my comment -- implying that the process of discovery continues). We can follow a process down to the molecular level, to the extent of it becoming absurd, or at least not of much practical use, but there is --and must be -- an endpoint at which the process is considered "complete" and there are no further depths to plumb. Unless you start to delve into peripheral realms that affect/inform the principles you're enacting, etc.

Sometimes a cigar really is just an exploding cigar.
Hmmmm.... well, I admit there are limits.... I didn't say infinite... but it still gets fairly complex. I realize that you are way above me with your ability to "get inside my body" and manipulate me at whim, but let me note for general comment the fact that the 2 basic criteria I've mentioned in a number of earlier posts can lead to some odd skills like:

Greatly enhanced personal strength, when done correctly and following a certain path;

The ability to put 2 fingers on top of a polished knife blade and lift up the knife;

Extraordinarily powerful "fa jin" and a number of tangents to that skill;

Difficult-to-puncture skin;

The ability to manipulate pressure pulses within the body;

And so on. I can think of several more, but that's enough.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:37 PM   #292
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

If you chase the word "subtle" down to its molecular level, or the etymological equivalent thereof, you will find that it is ultimately derived from "teks-", which also is the basis for words like tisse, context, architect, and, lo and behold, technical. That is why I used "subtle" instead of "insubstantial" or "ethereal"; principles are elusive, not because there isn't much to them, but precisely because there is so much.
Still, as Mike said above, principles are, "... fairly straightforward, just like a magic trick after someone shows you how it's done. THEN it gets subtle." Or, in Edisonian terms, that's where the 99% perspiration part kicks in.
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:44 PM   #293
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Mike, you forgot to include:

-lifting a larger, much heavier man off his feet and lobbing him across the room without using any discernable effort
- taking full-power punches and kicks without harm
- not budging when pushed hard by a much heavier invididual, then sending him flying onto his butt when he does
- knocking out a person with the lightest of touches
- sending a person flying back and down on his derriere with just the lightest of touches

But yes, the depth and extent of the amazing things humans can do are considerable, once we understand the principles and put them into physical practice. Again, though, these things aren't magic, are rooted solidly in biomechanics and Newtonian physics, and there is a limit to their reach. That doesn't mean there isn't enough to them to make a study last a lifetime! I'm just saying that they don't merit the belief that their well is bottomless. There are limits to the human body's abilities, and baried limits of individual people to enact the functions of their bodies.

We'll save "getting into" and "manipulating" your body for another day, though, or leave it to your trusted proctologist.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-30-2007 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 01-30-2007, 05:52 PM   #294
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote:
Or, in Edisonian terms, that's where the 99% perspiration part kicks in.
I agree with you completely here.
Also, understanding comes in layers, too, and with each layer of physical accomplishment comes that deeper layer of comprehension.
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Old 01-30-2007, 05:59 PM   #295
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Mike, you forgot to include:

-lifting a larger, much heavier man off his feet and lobbing him across the room without using any discernable effort
- taking full-power punches and kicks without harm
- not budging when pushed hard by a much heavier invididual, then sending him flying onto his butt when he does
- knocking out a person with the lightest of touches
- sending a person flying back and down on his derriere with just the lightest of touches

But yes, the depth and extent of the amazing things humans can do are considerable, once we understand the principles and put them into physical practice. Again, though, these things aren't magic, are rooted solidly in biomechanics and Newtonian physics, and there is a limit to their reach. That doesn't mean there isn't enough to them to make a study last a lifetime! I'm just saying that they don't merit the belief that their well is bottomless. There are limits to the human body's abilities, and baried limits of individual people to enact the functions of their bodies.

We'll save "getting into" and "manipulating" your body for another day, though, or leave it to your trusted proctologist.
I didn't forget anything you mentioned, Cady (with a caveat I'll get to in a sec), I was talking about things above and beyond those obvious basics. I will decline to accept your categorization of "the lightest of touches" to do what you describe. Don't you mean "with what appears to be a light touch"? Let's don't get all magicky, now.


The things you're describing are pretty obviously from the basic usages. See if you can figure out the knife-lifting trick.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:03 PM   #296
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Baseline skillset

Never seen the knife trick, Mike, so I won't offer postulations.
As for the other stuff, of course they're "basic usages." Isn't that what was being discussed -- the basics that look like magic, then -once the principles behind them are revealed- everyone says "is THAT all there is," and then you find that refining them makes you subtler and leads you into more sophisticated understandings, and so on? And, who's being "magicky"? The hand itself provides the lightest of touches. Again, isn't this what we're talking about? What the eye perceives, what is then revealed, and then the process of Brion's sweat equity, and so on?

There are just so many principles, but lots of ways to manifest them - some more sophisticated than others. We start at the basics, then add to that foundation as we grasp each level. Again, it's the trip of a lifetime. To me, one of the most intriguing aspects is that there are ways of using the body that are counter-intuitive; internal movements that people wouldn't normally think to do, and applications of those movements to provide external results. While the magician in the Strand Magazine demonstrated a handcuff escape that was a fraud (concealed key, but a clever way to retrieve it), this skill set we're discussing is for real, and it's a blast to see how far one can go with it in a lifetime.
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:09 PM   #297
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'll have to see the knife trick too... but crap... do I have a looooong way to go...

Ignatius
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:56 AM   #298
Ian Thake
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Re: Baseline skillset

Hmm, is the material that the knife's made from relevant here? Would the trick work with an equally hard and sharp plastic knife, for example?

Last edited by Ian Thake : 01-31-2007 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:06 AM   #299
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
Hmm, is the material, that the knife's made from, relevant here?
It's more the finish. I actually first saw this trick in maybe the 1960's from one of the perfpormers on the Beijing Acrobat Team, but I didn't understand what he was doing. He turned a large water-cooler jar (empty) on its side and placed his hand on the top side of the jar, palm to glass, and lifted the jar straight up into the air.

Like a like of the ki/qi tricks, you see 'em and you can decide on one or two ways that they're being done and sort of go, "Oh, good trick, but not very important". Because in a lot of ways, the ki/qi tricks are different from normal strength, but not all *that* different. If, for instance, Dan or Rob or Ushiro tossed someone up in the air who was pushing/resisting, it might look impressive, but not something you'd go call out your local physiology professor to look at. If you felt how it was done, you might go to the professor with a few questions.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:32 AM   #300
Brion Toss
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Re: Baseline skillset

[quote=... the 2 basic criteria I've mentioned in a number of earlier posts can lead to some odd skills like:

Greatly enhanced personal strength, when done correctly and following a certain path;

The ability to put 2 fingers on top of a polished knife blade and lift up the knife;

Extraordinarily powerful "fa jin" and a number of tangents to that skill;

Difficult-to-puncture skin;

The ability to manipulate pressure pulses within the body;

And so on. I can think of several more, but that's enough.

Best.

Mike[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, nice. But I am reminded of the punch line to an old Zen story:
"I don't know about your old fox, but my master's miracle is that when he's hungry he eats, and when he's tired he sleeps."
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