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Old 01-18-2007, 08:27 PM   #101
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
If it would make you feel better, everyone can hate someone else for a while. We could pick apart some other superpower that has its hands in everyone else's national bidness. You choose!
I think it should be the ones who really do deliberately harm other countries. The ones like Syria, Russia, China, Iran, Sudan, France, North Korea, and a few others. What I like is the way European self-loathing is such that they always look to fall on their own sword instead of fighting the people who really do do bad things to people.

However, World War I had the weirdest impact on Europe and many western Europeans... it's like they went crazy. Couldn't bring themselves to really even fight World War II. The "appeasement" process and "hate ourselves" attitude both took place after the *massive* population losses of World War I, the "Great War", the "Final War". But then again, maybe the bickering Europeans have always been like this. I know the Great War destroyed a way of life that, while brutal to the underclasses, had an upper class that will probably never be equaled. Many children of the rich could speak five or six languages by the time they were 7 years old. Some court scribes could take dictation at a spoken level for up to 50 languages. The educational achievements in breadth by some of the wealthy was unparalleled in modern times.

Mike
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:52 PM   #102
Cady Goldfield
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Syria and Iran definitely have their hands in other nations' bidness, especially in funnelling weapons to Hezbollah. In Sudan, the Arab-Muslim dominated government of which is engaging in wholesale genocide and ethnic subjugation of the country's indigenous black population. The situation there is desperate and dire. But I'd choose North Korea to pick on at this time, because it's under the rule of a monomaniacal looney who lives in splendor while "his" people starve. And he now has nuclear weapons to play with, and could ostensibly wipe out Japan, South Korea and a hunk of China if he has a tantrum.
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:00 PM   #103
Cady Goldfield
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I know the Great War destroyed a way of life that, while brutal to the underclasses, had an upper class that will probably never be equaled. Many children of the rich could speak five or six languages by the time they were 7 years old. Some court scribes could take dictation at a spoken level for up to 50 languages. The educational achievements in breadth by some of the wealthy was unparalleled in modern times.
A lot of poof people's kids could speak five or six languages by the time they were 7, as well, because they lived in countries that had more than one established culture and language, and because their countries were bordered by four or five other countries with different languages. All of my grandparents spoke at least six languages as a matter of course, in pre-World War I Europe.

But I understand what you're saying. There is no denying that most of the great gifts to the world, in the form of art, architecture, music, mathematics, etc. were from the patronage of the vastly wealthy, not just in Europe, but throughout the Near and Middle East, and Asia. The Moghuls, the Khans, the emperors of China.

There was a "golden age" when culture blossomed, and it gave rise to schools of philosophy, literature, music, art and sciences unprecedented in the Western world. This cultural boom was patronized/funded by aristocracy and the upper classes.

But now there seems to be a malaise in both Europe and North America, where people are turned inward and are more focused on empire and fortune-building, less to patronizing the arts and culture. Maybe democratic republics are not hothouses for cultural enrichment. Monarchy may mean dictatorship, but it can be benign and bring us circuses with our bread! Bring back the monarchy and the Medicis!

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-18-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 04:49 AM   #104
Taliesin
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Mike

So your argument is that when you use personal abuse you're taking the high road.

But it's only acceptable when you do it.

After all cricising the ignorance of someone who doesn't know the the British Armed forces had not only captured and decoded the Enigma Machine but also won the battle of Britain before the US joined WWII (that's you Mike) is totally unfair

Still it's moved the debate away from 'patriotism' & 'anti-Americanism'
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:46 AM   #105
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
But now there seems to be a malaise in both Europe and North America, where people are turned inward and are more focused on empire and fortune-building, less to patronizing the arts and culture. Maybe democratic republics are not hothouses for cultural enrichment. Monarchy may mean dictatorship, but it can be benign and bring us circuses with our bread! Bring back the monarchy and the Medicis!
If you listen to a lot of the campaign rhetoric in the US, you can see that it's aimed purely at the emotional reactions of the uneducated and the people who want to "share the wealth".... i.e., the people who should have little to say about the intelligent running of a country. I'm not much of a proponent of real democracy, of course, but then no system is really all that good for everyone, no matter what the claims. The masses are asses. I think a benevolent monarchy is a good idea.... how does "King Mike" sound, BTW? ;^

Mike
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:48 AM   #106
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
So your argument is that when you use personal abuse you're taking the high road.
If the abuse is against socialist louts, yes.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:55 AM   #107
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
There was a "golden age" when culture blossomed, and it gave rise to schools of philosophy, literature, music, art and sciences unprecedented in the Western world. This cultural boom was patronized/funded by aristocracy and the upper classes.
All on the backs of nations and peoples suffering under the yoke of colonialism.

Quote:
Monarchy may mean dictatorship, but it can be benign and bring us circuses with our bread!
And tyranny, bloody counter-revolution, and "3rd-World'ism." You simply have to look at the bloody history and colonial interference (pre- and post-) of Haiti, for instance, to see what I mean.

Quote:
Bring back the monarchy and the Medicis!
Might as well ask to bring back Hussein...in a way, he was a Medici of Iraq...except cursed with an appalling sense of artistic taste.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:59 AM   #108
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Mike

So your argument is that when you use personal abuse you're taking the high road.

But it's only acceptable when you do it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If the abuse is against socialist louts, yes.

Regards,

Mike
And, speaking of hints...

Hypocrisy

Quote:
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:33 PM   #109
Cady Goldfield
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think a benevolent monarchy is a good idea.... how does "King Mike" sound, BTW? ;^
Hm. Then, who would the Court Jester be?

Absolute monarchies seem to be on the out, with most turning into constitutional monarchies, with the titular monarch being ceremonial and symbolic, without absolute power. Even the last holdouts -- Bhutan, notably, because it was at the behest of the absolute monarch; and Nepal, because it was the people forcing the king to relent, at "swordpoint." The House of Saud still reigns, but it will be interesting to see what transpires over ensuing decades.

What do you suppose is the catalyst of this trend?

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-19-2007 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:35 PM   #110
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Hm. Then, who would the Court Jester be?
OK, OK, you can have the job, but you have to provide your own uniform.

Mike
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:43 PM   #111
Cady Goldfield
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
All on the backs of nations and peoples suffering under the yoke of colonialism.
Well, certainly. History likes to recall the grandeur and glory of the pyramids of Egypt, the Maya and Aztec temples, Moorish and Moghul architecture, mathematics and astronomy, and all that. That the structures were built by slaves and peasants, and that the royal courts that promoted the sciences and arts were supported by the tithes and taxes of the struggling farmers et al., is a given, and not often noted. And yet, those monuments and intellectual gifts are what remain and are lauded and admired. The cost, and who paid it, are not given the same due. The peasants were "sacrifices for the cause."

In more egalitarian societies, mediocrity is the hallmark of their monuments, because such environments do not allow for the focused use of slave labor to carry off great feats, and to

It's a trade-off.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:45 PM   #112
Cady Goldfield
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, OK, you can have the job, but you have to provide your own uniform.

Mike
Hah! This is a Union shop, buster!
And anyway, this is the only kind of Fool I'll be:
http://www.fool.com/index.htm?ref=topnav
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Old 01-20-2007, 05:17 PM   #113
David Orange
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickc..._uc/bs20070119

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:00 AM   #114
Taliesin
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Does anybody else find it funny that a guy I have no doubt describes himself as a republican thinks royalty is a good idea?
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:33 AM   #115
Hogan
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Does anybody else find it funny that a guy I have no doubt describes himself as a republican thinks royalty is a good idea?
Well, at least in the UK they make money off of their royalty....
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:44 AM   #116
Taliesin
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Or, if you take account of the Civil List, vice versa
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:11 PM   #117
Hogan
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Even taking into acct the Civil List, the UK still makes more money off of the Royals than the other way around. The UK has a pretty good deal.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:22 PM   #118
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Oh Lord, how the thread ever wanders!

Pardon this dip back onto the OP, interrupting all the interruptions.

Here's MY "alternative proposal" for Bush...back HR 508... The Bring the Troops Home and Iraq Sovereignty Restoration Act.

BRING THE TROOPS HOME, NOW!

You can send an email to your Congressman supporting the bill, here

And, you can write to Speaker of the House Pelosi, here
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:31 PM   #119
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

And, this just in:

Quote:
DN! wrote:
Report: Cheney Rejected Iranian Offer in 2003
In other news on Iran, former Secretary of State Colin Powell"s chief of staff has revealed that Vice President Dick Cheney rejected an Iranian offer in 2003 to help the United States stabilize iraq. According to Lawrence Wilkerson, Tehran also offered to end its military support for Hezbollah and Hamas.
Yeah, I know...more "he said/she said" stuff. I don't take the word of one disgruntled ex-chief-of-staff, as proof of anything. But if more independent sources come up buttressing this claim, it sure would a wrench in the whole "Iran is the thorn in the side to Iraq," line of thinking.

Perhaps, the real problem in Iraq, is W's refusal to employ diplomacy.

A world leader of a superpower, employing diplomacy to get what he wants, and what is best for the majority of ppl.

Imagine that.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:41 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yeah, I know...more "he said/she said" stuff. I don't take the word of one disgruntled ex-chief-of-staff, as proof of anything. But if more independent sources come up buttressing this claim, it sure would a wrench in the whole "Iran is the thorn in the side to Iraq," line of thinking.
Sure... that's old news. Iran offered to "help" (which they've verbally offered tons of times and have never really done when it came to it) and they offered to "stop supporting" Hamas and Hezbollah, illegal terrorist groups. How about if I stick a gun to your head, Neil, and offer to put it away if you'll give me your money. Do you understand now why their "offer to negotiate" was ignored? The next time you read where North Korea, Iran, Syria and sundry others are "offering to negotiate", why don't you look at their record of truthfulness in previous "negotiations" before you start screaming about how the Bad Ole US is just being a meany and won't sit down with those peace-loving nice guys?

Why is it that you "liberals" always fall in love with the most repressive, population-killing, illiberal governments and act like they're your best friends?

Look at Hugo Chavez, whom you so deeply love, and now he's just made himself a dictator. Sixty percent of his country is poor, 25% of that number is starving, yet he's giving money away trying to buy influence and he's going to "nationalize" the privately-owned oil interests. Perfect textbook example of what really happens when "liberals" and "socialists" take over.

Mike
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:57 PM   #121
Ron Tisdale
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Well, socialists anyway and I liked that quip about the armed robbery.
Touche

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-22-2007, 03:58 PM   #122
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sure... that's old news. Iran offered to "help" (which they've verbally offered tons of times and have never really done when it came to it) and they offered to "stop supporting" Hamas and Hezbollah, illegal terrorist groups. How about if I stick a gun to your head, Neil, and offer to put it away if you'll give me your money.
How about if you stop using metaphors as if whole nations are individuals, with guns?

Quote:
Do you understand now why their "offer to negotiate" was ignored?
Yes, our President doesn't believe in negotiation...even tho the Syrian's were quite helpful in supplying us with terrorist information, after 9-11.

AG Gonzales thought the Syrian's reliable enough to send them Maher Arar, an innocent man sent by the US to be tortured in Syria (they still refuse to issue an apology, BTW). He took them "at their word" when they said that they don't torture ppl...why shouldn't we take them at their word, when they say that they want to stop the destabilization?

I'll tell you why...because it interferes with the Mike Sigman view of the ME as some sort of backdrop for a "Clash of Civilizations," a "holy war." But seriously, Bush doesn't believe in negotiation. It's hardly a "radical" idea to negotiate: US Presidents have been doing it forever...it's probably the reason why we're not little flacks of radioactive ash right now, floating around in what's left of the planet.

Quote:
The next time you read where North Korea, Iran, Syria and sundry others are "offering to negotiate", why don't you look at their record of truthfulness in previous "negotiations" before you start screaming about how the Bad Ole US is just being a meany and won't sit down with those peace-loving nice guys?
Oh, you mean, like NK legally testing its own weapons, and legally announcing that it was removing the UN monitoring equipment?

Ah, Mike, on with the toothless dogs again? Is your repertoire SO denuded that you have to cook up outright lies, as well?

NK didn't break any laws, in pursuing a nuclear weapon. Sorry, but they were not part of the Test Ban Treaty.

And, Iran is not breaking any laws in pursuing nuclear energy programs. In fact, we just handed India the same technology that we're all in high dudgeon about Iran pursuing the same thing. Iran is perfectly within its rights to pursue nuclear energy...just not nuclear weapons. It will take years for Iran to even come close to a nuclear weapon (if that is what they want).

And anyway, the odds are very good that India will simply give Iran the technology (as they are close, diplomatically speaking), and so the urgency of the whole affair has the feel of cooking up false reasons, to invade.

Sound familiar? To Mike, I suppose not. This must all be news to him.

But to the rest of us who have moved on since 2004: we all remember going to war, propped up on lies and misinformation. Hopefully, more of us out there will know better, next time.

And there will be a next time: it's already being planned.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-22-2007 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:07 PM   #123
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

But there's that famed Mike Sigman misdirection again. No one responded to this post...a pity, as I see it as the olny "alternative" left to W...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Oh Lord, how the thread ever wanders!

Pardon this dip back onto the OP, interrupting all the interruptions.

Here's MY "alternative proposal" for Bush...back HR 508... The Bring the Troops Home and Iraq Sovereignty Restoration Act.

BRING THE TROOPS HOME, NOW!

You can send an email to your Congressman supporting the bill, here

And, you can write to Speaker of the House Pelosi, here
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:13 PM   #124
Mike Sigman
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Oh, you mean, like NK legally testing its own weapons, and legally announcing that it was removing the UN monitoring equipment?
Gee Neil.... I'm not sure why you keep complaining about the US. Why don't you move to North Korea? You'd fit right in.... the mines. You're really sort of like that American guy they caught with the Taliban, aren't you?

Mike
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:05 AM   #125
Neil Mick
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Re: An Alternative Proposal for Bush

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Gee Neil.... I'm not sure why you keep complaining about the US. Why don't you move to North Korea?
So typical. (*wildlife doc voice*) When pressed to the wall with all his nonsense, the Wild Wingnut will often employ the standard "if-you-don't-like-it-here-then-why-don't-you-move-to-blah-blah" strawman, in a bleating attempt at escape."

Please. One more reason why I think you're anti-American.

I don't want you to move, anywhere you don't want. You, OTOH...

Quote:
You'd fit right in.... the mines. You're really sort of like that American guy they caught with the Taliban, aren't you?

Mike
Note to self...ignore Mike's last 2 sentences in posts, as they are generally the dying utterances of a stew of half-digested blog-spew (hey, that rhymes! ), and are prone to nonsense.
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