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Old 01-13-2007, 01:52 AM   #26
sullivanw
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:

However, I have rarely resorted to the back roll in my own aikido training with partners and consider that it is virtually unnecessary. So why do we do it? I think it is a useful training exercise, but in actual aikido practice, I think there are very few waza where the back roll is possible.
This has been my experience as my senpai have progressively been using more and more force with me. When they are really challenging me I don't have the time or position to do a back roll - it becomes a back fall.

-Will
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Old 01-13-2007, 03:34 AM   #27
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Ron,

As far as I'm concerned, in an attempt to provide counterpoint, you have instead just unwittingly corroborated my claim that these objections are ridiculous, and worse. The concept that we are dealing with here has been parodied in Pink Panther movies, in the form of Clouseau's butler Kato. There's a reason why it's funny. One-upping someone else in terms of surprising them with random, unexpected malevolence is inherently ridiculous. Aside from the first example, which seems like a mere training convention for a certain group, and the second one, which just seems like a standard part of advanced training, the examples you provide show how this dynamic can easily escalate from silly to scary to criminal.

Whipping a fake knife out of one's gi at an unexpected moment strikes me as an exercise in being an arrogant smart ass. It is simply outside the parameters of the practice. I find it hard to see any way to interpet this that does not involve seeing the knife-wielder as thinking he is better and more aware than his partner, and looking to prove it, and/or thinking the training that he and his partner are supposed to be doing is beneath him somehow.

Onward to the more disturbing. The final two examples you give sound like classic cult behavior. I would not tolerate either one from any dojo I attended. When someone transgresses the implict boundaries of your association or social contract with them, it is a serious matter, and possibly a criminal act. I would say both of the practices you describe meet the legal definition of assault - the first physical and the second verbal... at the very least.

If any Aikido classmate of mine ambushed me with a weapon, I would defend myself in earnest. Unless they were vastly superior to me in a no-rules, anything goes, real self defense scenario, they would likely be going to the hospital. I do not tolerate unprovoked attacks on my person with weapons, and I can't imagine why any sane person would. My classmates do not have my permission to abuse me in this way, and they have no business assuming it without asking.

If an Aikido teacher of mine brought a presumably loaded firearm to class and said things that implied that he was going to use it on the students, I would assume he had lost his mind. Depending on my assessment of the scenario, I would either object strongly or attempt to escape and call the police. Either way, I would quit the dojo and press assault charges - even if the suit cost me money and was unlikely to succeed, I would pursue it to the end as a matter of principle, in the hopes that taking a stand and causing major hassles would serve to protect other students from such predatory behavior in the future.

Once again, no one, including my Aikido teacher has my permission to threaten me or play any kind of sadistic head game on me to "teach me a lesson". That's not what I signed up for. If you did, I'd say you are about an inch away from drinking poisoned Kool-Aid in the jungles of Guyana. My idea of participating in Aikido is not about joining a cult and allowing people to abuse me in ways that surprise me at every turn, it is about a mutually consensual social contract with two-way respect and clear boundaries.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 01-13-2007 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:41 AM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

As a background to the discussion between Kevin W and Ron T, I would suggest that the possibility of backward rolls during practice is closely related to the conventions of practice, which clearly varies in each organization/dojo.

Last night I practised in my university dojo with the students and the pace of training was not so fast and demanding. Sometimes backward rolls were executed by some students, but this was only because the waza was not applied to the end and so they were given the space and time to do so.

One waza in question was kokyu-nage from a morote-dori hold. This is a fundamental training tool and can be done with or without the ukemi. Last night some students were 'letting go' far too early (in my opinion), and so were given the space to do a backward roll. When we changed partners and these students practised with me, they could not do the backward roll because I did not give them the 'space' to do so.

If any of you have practised this waza with Masatake Fujita Shihan, you will know that a backward roll is completely impossible. He throws you straight down and does not 'let go' until the last minute: he continues the waza until you are lying flat on the mat, with his hand just above your head. The way he does this waza sometimes requires a back breakfall. And he expects feedback from his uke right until the end of the waza. I have seen one injury from this waza, as executed by Fujita Sensei: concussion caused by the head hitting the mat.

Compare this with the late Morihiro Saito Shihan. I once took part in a seminar taught by Saito Sensei and his uke was Bruce Klickstein. Bruce is now a non-person in the aikido world, but his ukemi was extraordinary. We did the same waza, morote-dori kokyu-nage with loads of variations, but Saito Sensei 'let go' somewhat earlier than Fujita Sensei and Bruce executed a superb ukemi. It was not really a roll, but Bruce was flexible enough to be able to land on his feet. It was more a 'side breakfall, but going backwards', which perhaps is what Kevin W has in mind. Except that you do not turn your body in the direction of the throw, and your feet should reach eye-level: it is the 'kick' that makes all the difference.

For the aikido history buffs who are around my age, the seminar was taught around 1981 or 1982 and was organized by the New England Aikikai. It was held in western Massachusetts (Springfield, perhaps) and was taught by Nobuyoshi Tamura and Morihiro Saito. It was the first joint seminar ever held by these two shihans. A youthful Bruce Bookman took part as did the late Paul Sylvain and other members of the Chiba-gumi.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:08 AM   #29
wayneth
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

At the BAF Summer School 2005, Sugawara Sensei introduced a different form of Ushiro Ukemi. This being instead of rolling over your shoulder, you just roll over your back; hitting the mat when you hit the ground and then hitting the mat again when you have rolled over.
If I can remember right he explained that this was much more safer than practicing the normal, standard Ushiro Kaiten Ukemi. Since when practicing technique with power and Uke aiming to do this rolling Ukemi, it can, I would imagine cause some sort of stress on the neck etc. Which is where this would come in?

Wayne
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Old 01-13-2007, 07:05 AM   #30
creinig
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The concept that we are dealing with here has been parodied in Pink Panther movies, in the form of Clouseau's butler Kato. There's a reason why it's funny. One-upping someone else in terms of surprising them with random, unexpected malevolence is inherently ridiculous.
It might be funny to most people, but I consider this to be very useful training, as long as (a) both parties agree to it and (b) both parties trust each other to have enough control to avoid serious injuries. And interestingly, there was a Clouseau-Kato relationship between Ueshiba and Shioda, as described in "Aikido Shugyo", p.153.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Whipping a fake knife out of one's gi at an unexpected moment strikes me as an exercise in being an arrogant smart ass. It is simply outside the parameters of the practice. I find it hard to see any way to interpet this that does not involve seeing the knife-wielder as thinking he is better and more aware than his partner, and looking to prove it, and/or thinking the training that he and his partner are supposed to be doing is beneath him somehow.
Simple

If I'm doing the technique and uke has the ability to pull a weapon and attack me with it during that, then I'm doing something seriously wrong. Of course that applies not to all practiced techniques and not to all ways of practicing (e.g. slow step-by-step detail work), but sometimes such pointers from uke are very helpful.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Onward to the more disturbing. The final two examples you give sound like classic cult behavior. I would not tolerate either one from any dojo I attended. When someone transgresses the implict boundaries of your association or social contract with them, it is a serious matter, and possibly a criminal act. I would say both of the practices you describe meet the legal definition of assault - the first physical and the second verbal... at the very least.
Depends. If everyone knows such a shinai attack is (or may be) part of preparation for a test, then I consider it to be perfectly fine. I can't say anything about the rifle thing -- I read it as the thing just being brought to the dojo, not being pointed at someone (which I would strongly object to as well).

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
My idea of participating in Aikido is not about joining a cult and allowing people to abuse me in ways that surprise me at every turn, it is about a mutually consensual social contract with two-way respect and clear boundaries.
I'm pretty sure (training in a supposedly similar dojo culture) that Ron's examples were in a dojo with "a mutually consensual social contract with two-way respect and clear boundaries". Just different boundaries than you might be used to

Not trying to be a smartass here. I just wanted to point out that Ron's examples are merely about a higher intensity of training (mainly the mental kind of intensity). And there's a bunch of us sickos who like that
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:02 PM   #31
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Wayne Price wrote:
At the BAF Summer School 2005, Sugawara Sensei introduced a different form of Ushiro Ukemi. This being instead of rolling over your shoulder, you just roll over your back; hitting the mat when you hit the ground and then hitting the mat again when you have rolled over.
If I can remember right he explained that this was much more safer than practicing the normal, standard Ushiro Kaiten Ukemi. Since when practicing technique with power and Uke aiming to do this rolling Ukemi, it can, I would imagine cause some sort of stress on the neck etc. Which is where this would come in?

Wayne
Wayne,

I think this is a variation on the same Ukemi I'm describing as a side-backward roll. I know someone who studies with Sugawara, and we have talked about this.

The more basic version of this fall does not require the first slap. When you tuck the inside leg, you put down the ball of your foot instead of falling onto the top of it. This allows you to lower yourself down under control and set the first hand down on the mat, not slap. You then lower yourself onto your butt and side of your back, then roll sideways, as you say. If you want to dissipate momentum, you can spread and extend the legs instead of slapping with the second hand. As you roll over, you begin to push yourself up with that hand - falling and getting up are all one motion. Your head/neck is never in any jeaporday, at least not from the fall. If you can't find anyone who knows it, you can see in on the first Donovan Waite ukemi DVD.

The version you describe is for when the inside leg is trapped, and you cannot control your trajectory or lower youself sufficiently with it.
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:09 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Hi Kevin, sorry my examples hit a sore spot.

No one in the one dojo felt threatened at all by the gun demonstration. The gun was never pointed at anybody, no one gasped (we all know that particular instructor is a firearms expert), and the gun was disabled. The presense of it was enough to make the point. Some of us were very into "what works"...his point was what works today is a bullet from a mile away. So getting *inappropriately rough* on your partners while trying to find "what works" did not and does not make a whole lot of sense. It was a good lecture, well worth the time, and it has stuck with me. The tanto part is something I've heard of...not something I remember doing myself...but I think it teaches a similar lesson. And I know Silat groups where they ONLY train armed. And I don't know of anyone crying assault there either.

When going for shodan/nidan in the other dojo, we know what is expected...control is used at all times, and to my knowledge, no one has ever been hurt, or believed that they were assaulted or battered. It was good training only

As to cult behavior, well, aikido, tennis, professional baseball, all can be cults of a sort. But no, I do not consider any of the dojo I have trained regularly in to be cults. In the case of the dojo above, we regularly trained outside of our organization, in other arts as well as other styles of aikido, and had others come in to us regularly. While the instructor was definately very religious and charismatic, he and I disagree quite a bit about religeon, politics and many other things. Yet we have a good relationship to this day, even though I have since left that dojo for completely unrelated issues.

To sum up...I have no issues with the training I described earlier, and I find it unfortunate that you react to it in such a strong manner, but hey; you pays your money...and you takes your chances. To each his own.

Backrolls...uh, yeah...back on topic...I agree with Peter...they have their place. Frankly, I probably do them too often.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:18 AM   #33
mwible
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

i have personally never heard of anyone being injured from a backward roll. and as to you not feeling comfortable doing a backward roll from a technique ill just say that when you are falling from a throw you have to put the foot closest to nage down anyways(for your breakfall), so since that leg is down and your other leg is up then you should take a backroll over the shoulder on the side with the leg thats up, but i usually only do backwards rolls out of a technique if it is a soft technique, because if it is really hard(like some of the ones i have expeienced from my sensei) then i just instinctively do a breakfall(either that or be hurt really bad). i dont know if this has helped at all but, there you go!!!
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Old 01-16-2007, 10:28 AM   #34
RoyK
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

I got hit on the head while doing a back fall in the past, so I don't see how a back fall is so much safer than a back roll. You still don't see where you're going.

I've been to a practice class in a dojo where they don't practice back rolls because rolling back gives the opponent a chance to attack you while ur back is turned to him.

I personally am glad I practice backward rolls because they're very helpful for improving my forward rolls.
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:24 AM   #35
wayneth
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Hi Kevin,

Yes the way you described that Ukemi was familiar to the one that I was saying about, the only difference being that we do hit the tatami twice; once when we hit the ground at first and then when we almost "rotate" onto the other side and get up. I don't now why we hit the mat twice, all Sugawara Sensei said that the Ukemi was to protect the internal organs from shock of the fall.

However the explanation you said at the end of your post does not seem familiar. I didn't now that that was the reason why you did it, simply because Sugawara Sensei taught it as a simple Ukemi and so does my own instructor. To be done when doing techniques like Irimi Nage and Kokyo-Ho Nage, among others.
Also apparently Kobayashi Sensei taught the same thing at the UKA Summer School 2005, possibly something which Hombu Dojo is implementing. Although a suggestion but looking at the Uke in Doshus books, they never do Ushiro Kaiten Ukemi.

If I am right don't Yoshinkan teach Ushiro Kaiten Ukemi (I saw it being shown in one of the Yoshinkan DVDs), but I have never seen it being done when they are performing techniques??

Wayne
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:38 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Yes, it is taught, and drilled. Like Peter said, if you see someone doing powerfull throws in a demo, you will rarely see uke doing ushiro kaiten ukemi. There simply isn't room for it, or any effective way I know yet to dissapate the power of the throw enough (other than doing an advance backfall kicking up the inside leg, and then rolling...but I'm not sure of the tactical reason to roll after doing that ukemi). You tend to land VERY close to shite / nage doing the advanced breakfall, and exposing your spine to your partner when that close seems to be a no no to me.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:44 PM   #37
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

I was trained in backwards rolls. However, as I worked with higher skilled practitioners, or at higher paces of practice, the opportunity for the backwards roll became rare. In my experience, this is because the backwards roll requires that uke be allowed to have his/her center move back and down prior to most other body parts, while a good practitioner (or folks working at higher paces) will never seek to throw you "backwards" without your center continuing to move forward and up. It is for this same reason that the common way of doing back break-falls is often impossible under these same circumstances (though folks do them) - i.e. folks tend to sit their bottom back and down rather than having their center continue forward and up. At our dojo, as a dojocho, I do not instruct at all in backwards rolls. My deshi range from being able to do them because they are coordinated folks who know their bodies and the ground to outright sucking at them. For better or for worse, I have to say, I am a bit proud of that fact - lol.

dmv

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Old 01-17-2007, 06:23 AM   #38
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Good points Ron.
For the record as Avery stated, Ukemi in all it's forms are part of your arsenal. One of the great things about a backwards roll (especially after a breakfall), is the ability to get out of a tight spot..quickly.
From time to time, we practice our awareness and how to deal with an attacker "mid- ukemi". There are so many options, most importantly is knowing exactly where you are.

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Old 01-19-2007, 03:35 PM   #39
David Shevitz
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

In our dojo, we practice back rolls. I agree with the many posts here: it's primarily a training exercise. I also agree (as others have already said) that experienced nages rarely give their ukes the opportunity to do a back roll.

I don't find back rolls dangerous in and of themselves; however, there is one practice that I dislike: the use of back rolls as a "lazy" way of getting up from a fall. I've seen many aikidoka use a back roll where a back fall would do. Their reasoning is that it allows them to use some of the momentum from falling to stand back up. The problem I have with this is that, too often, they try to use a back roll in a situation that is unsafe. Some examples: they might be close to the edge of the mat, or they don't see that there are other students directly behind them.

I see no problem with using them as a training exercise or as another "tool" to add to one's ukemi skills. And they are pretty fun!
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Old 01-19-2007, 06:31 PM   #40
seank
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
David Shevitz wrote:
Some examples: they might be close to the edge of the mat, or they don't see that there are other students directly behind them.
Funnily enough that is one of the reasons we do practice this, so as to practice and develop your awareness for what is going on around you.

I've been on the mats with hundreds of people before where we are quite literally shoulder to shoulder and backwards rolls have still been possible, and I can still only recall one incident where a person ended up with a broken toe as someone stood on their foot as they tried to stand up (but that could have happened from a forward roll or even just standing from a break fall)
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:10 PM   #41
Janet Rosen
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

To answer the original question: IIRC I believe one of the associations (USAF-WR?) stopped doing backrolls a number of yrs ago because of a very severe injury?
Personally, in situations where I just need to deal w/ being propelled down, a backfall works fine, and if I'm being projected, some variety of the "mai kaiten" across the shoulders while turning in space and right back onto the feet works fine too. I stopped doing backrolls after my first knee injury in 1999 and never once felt that I "needed" them in my repertoire.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-20-2007, 01:06 PM   #42
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
To answer the original question: IIRC I believe one of the associations (USAF-WR?) stopped doing backrolls a number of yrs ago because of a very severe injury?
That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Whatever that incident was, or any others like it, apparently no one else who has read the thread remembers, no one knows any details. I suspected there would be accounts of a few incidents. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell whether the lack of such information indicates the rarity of backward roll injuries or simply a lack of information.
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Old 01-20-2007, 01:52 PM   #43
Amendes
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

A Good teacher should teach his students about backward ukemi properly and the important of looking around before you start the techniques that involve being thrown or throwing. I know we have been told the stories at my Dojo about the injuries and accidents that have happened in other schools from back rolls and high break falls.

I can happily say in the 21 years we have been open nobody has been ever seriously injured at our school.

Also in my opinion though some may argue; Bankrolls and break falls should be taught at a more higher level to prevent problems as well. (I am not referring to the basic back ukemi that's not a roll either I am referring to the backward high falls or rolls where you don't see anything. I am pretty sure they are the ones you are referring too.)


When I teach a class or help assist teaching a class I make sure everyone is spread out and throwing in the same directions, not crossing each other.

Just last night we were doing the backward fall and slap which is neither a roll or high brake fall. But has the potential to be just as dangerous if someone was to hit their head on something or someone. I can recall now asking one of the students to move to a different place on the mats because they didn't even look behind them before they decided that was the place to fall.

So you always have to watch where other ukes are being sent too, and where you are going to send yours, or where you are going to end up.


Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
I am curious if anyone has first hand knowledge of people being injured doing backward rolls. In the past, I have heard about incidents of serious injury and even one account of a death from mid-backward roll collisions, but I don't exactly have medical records and death certificates to prove them.

So, first question: does anybody KNOW about incidents of backward roll related injuries or deaths?

Personally, I have never felt safe doing them from throws and am pretty sure I have never done a single backward roll, except during exercises at the beginning of basic classes. Even without factoring in that you can't see where you are going and might collide, I feel like there is too great of a possibility of angling incorrectly or getting mixed up about which side is being chosen, which could result in neck injury. Before I learned soft ukemi, I just always flattened out instead of rolling. Now I mostly turn slightly sideways, lower myself on the ball of my foot, and do the butt/back wide leg thing. Occasionally I do a hard, flattening out style fall.

In 7-8 years of training, I don't recall ever "needing" to roll backwards in the sense of avoiding injury or even feeling a little awkward. The alternatives always seemed fine. So the second question: does anyone feel backward rolls are necessary in their training? Why?

Last edited by Amendes : 01-20-2007 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 01-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #44
Amendes
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Here is some documented info for you btw on death and seriouse injury in Aikido.

This will verify any claims.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/...s/injuries.gif
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:01 PM   #45
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Andrew Mendes wrote:
Here is some documented info for you btw on death and seriouse injury in Aikido.

This will verify any claims.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/...s/injuries.gif
That's interesting, but it obviously only covers Japan and the last entry was 20 years ago.

I increasingly think that the kind of info I'm looking for will be very hard to find. People directly involved in such incidents probably aren't going to brag, and those who run the dojos and organizations involved aren't going to be eager to advertise serious injuries or deaths on their watch. I also suspect that many people who witness such things or are close to the casualties end up quitting in the wake of such horrible events.

It's too bad, it would be useful data. For instance, shihonage is disprortionately represented on that list. One probably doesn't normally think of it as one of the most hazardous techniques, but it reminded me that the worst injury I ever got in Aikido was to my mid-lower back, when someone cranked down on shihonage while my feet were sort of planted.
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Old 01-20-2007, 08:57 PM   #46
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

People,
The only time there is true danger is when one does not pay attention in the moment. Whether in the midst of a backroll,airfall...isn't being aware of our environment (regardless of what we are doing) the most important aspect of the martial arts? One could have the most perfect technique, but without awareness-it only takes one moment, when we are not paying attention..to get hurt.
Ukemi is a tool! A drill!
of great value!!!
If one gets hurt doing a backroll, whose fault is that?
uhhhhhh...hmmm.....

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Old 01-20-2007, 09:44 PM   #47
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
People,
The only time there is true danger is when one does not pay attention in the moment. Whether in the midst of a backroll,airfall...isn't being aware of our environment (regardless of what we are doing) the most important aspect of the martial arts? One could have the most perfect technique, but without awareness-it only takes one moment, when we are not paying attention..to get hurt.
Ukemi is a tool! A drill!
of great value!!!
If one gets hurt doing a backroll, whose fault is that?
uhhhhhh...hmmm.....
So, to summarize, your argument is that there is no inherent difference in the dangerousness of any technique or practice - anything and everything is safe, so long as the participants are aware and paying attention. So, I presume you have no problem with people practicing live sword takeaways? Gun takeaways with loaded firearms where uke really shoots at nage?
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Old 01-20-2007, 09:46 PM   #48
senshincenter
 
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
That's interesting, but it obviously only covers Japan and the last entry was 20 years ago.

I increasingly think that the kind of info I'm looking for will be very hard to find. People directly involved in such incidents probably aren't going to brag, and those who run the dojos and organizations involved aren't going to be eager to advertise serious injuries or deaths on their watch. I also suspect that many people who witness such things or are close to the casualties end up quitting in the wake of such horrible events.

It's too bad, it would be useful data. For instance, shihonage is disprortionately represented on that list. One probably doesn't normally think of it as one of the most hazardous techniques, but it reminded me that the worst injury I ever got in Aikido was to my mid-lower back, when someone cranked down on shihonage while my feet were sort of planted.

I agree, shiho nage is one of the most dangerous techniques. In fact, at our dojo, we probably don't practice it with new folks until a year or more into their practice. If we do it before then, it is usually done in a very slow and controlled manner and only as some sort of introduction to the technique or some other related point. However, when I started training, that was pretty much the first technique we did. Actually, at nearly every dojo I ever belonged do, that was one of the first techniques one did. Looking back, I think that was doable because of how watered-down the version often tended to be. I think that plays a big role in how soon one can actually be introduced to all of the basic elements of this technique - but that probably goes for any technique. However, for shiho nage: The reason it is difficult/dangerous is that, in my opinion, a good shiho nage takes away two very common things folks do to limit the kuzushi: a) allowing uke to turn into the technique in order to post up on the inside foot in preparation for a forward breakfall; and b) allowing uke to disengage his/her center first (i.e. sitting down into the common back breakfall) from their forward progress. This can make things very tough on shoulders, elbows, the neck, and the back of the head. :-(

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:25 AM   #49
PeterR
 
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

I think the shihonage deaths in Japan were do to repeditive slamming of the back of the skull onto tatami - one could say that was due to ukemi skills but from what I was told it was more to a level of exhaustion and inability of those in charge (third year uni students) to spot that and more importantly stop it.

Janet may possibly correct me but the serious injury from backward ukemi was due to a collision rather than the ukemi itself although the body position at the point of collision was a contributing factor.

I've seen a few cranked necks but have never heard of a serious injury from a backward role on its own. I don't think its any more dangerous than any other form - I've already given my reason why we don't do them although I just might assign them to one of my students to loosen him up a bit.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:53 PM   #50
David Shevitz
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Re: Backward Roll - Risks and benefits

Quote:
Sean Kelleher wrote:
Funnily enough that is one of the reasons we do practice this, so as to practice and develop your awareness for what is going on around you.

I've been on the mats with hundreds of people before where we are quite literally shoulder to shoulder and backwards rolls have still been possible, and I can still only recall one incident where a person ended up with a broken toe as someone stood on their foot as they tried to stand up (but that could have happened from a forward roll or even just standing from a break fall)
That's a good point. I think what I was trying to say is that it is all too common to see folks do back rolls without being fully aware of their surroundings.

So, if I were to rephrase, I'd say: "The one practice I dislike is people doing backrolls without awareness."
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