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Old 01-16-2007, 02:03 AM   #76
batemanb
 
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
How about this one on Systema?

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=-hO8yvA3cSE
Stan Pranin over at Aikido Journal has a bit of time for this chap. They've been on the mat at Aiki Expo, so there may be a few people on here that have experienced it and are able to comment more.

George Ledyard also has/ had some Systema people training up at his place, or next door. I believe he holds it in regard too.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:16 AM   #77
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Stan Pranin over at Aikido Journal has a bit of time for this chap. They've been on the mat at Aiki Expo, so there may be a few people on here that have experienced it and are able to comment more.

George Ledyard also has/ had some Systema people training up at his place, or next door. I believe he holds it in regard too.
Peter Young, in one of the previous videos does Taiji and so do I, but that doesn't stop me from pointing out absurdities in his "art". A good martial artist should be a clinical analyser par excellence, not a wannabelieve.

BTW, back in the mid-90's, I remember Peter Young coming over from England to some of the large tournaments in Houston and Orlando.... he would take workshops from me and anyone he could get information from, and I know he took it back as "secrets" to reveal to his loyal British students. I have this hangup about people having their students on and I hate to see them taught bogus stuff, no matter what art.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #78
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

No mention of me being a "wannabelieve" Mike (although am open to believing), just adding that there may be people on here that can provide some first hand comments of the guy from their own experience.

Last edited by batemanb : 01-16-2007 at 09:33 AM.

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Old 01-17-2007, 04:25 PM   #79
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Kenneth Zink wrote:
This is an old video that was made by my teacher's teacher, Barrish Sensei. He still teachers Aikido but is now a Shinto Priest and operates the Tsubaki Grand Shrine up in Granite Falls, WA.

Aiki

I'm curious if anyone else out there has experience with this type of teaching. My teacher Kimbal Sensei demonstrates this on a fairly regular basis but although I've experienced it as Uke many times over the years its still remains a mystery in many ways.
I personally experienced this kind of Aikido in Japan at the honbu dojo.

The first time I saw it, I couldn't help but laugh. It was funny and unbelievable.

Later on that same instructor motioned to me to attack, well, I attacked and, I'll say, I accidently hit him. He had me attack him a second time, this time he got out of the way and performed waza.

Erik Calderon
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:44 PM   #80
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Stan Pranin over at Aikido Journal has a bit of time for this chap. They've been on the mat at Aiki Expo, so there may be a few people on here that have experienced it and are able to comment more.

George Ledyard also has/ had some Systema people training up at his place, or next door. I believe he holds it in regard too.
Michael Ryabko is the O-Sensei of their system. There are several branches of this Russian tradition but the one that is Systema is his. He has taught a numebr of seniors. The one whom we know best is Vladimir Vasiliyev who is the number one guy in North America.

A number of my students and former students have trained with these guys. They continue to do so. These guys aren't the woo woo crowd one finds in Aikido. One has done karate and judo since he was a kid, has yudansha rank in Aikido from me as well, another has done club security work for years, the third is a WA State Patrol Officer... These guys have journeyed up to Toronto to train with Vladimir and Michael on a number of occasions. I have trained with Vladimir a couple of times and with Michael at the Expo. Suffice it to say that they didn't even scratch the surface at the Expo of what the eneregtics involve in systema practice.

Once again, it's one of those things where you have to feel it. Period. I personally think that the systema folks are seriously on the something. We keep having these discussions about Aikido in which we acknowledge that the real top level folks have failed to pass on what they know. This is not the case with the systema folks. My students and I have experienced some of the top people in North America, they come to Bellevue, WA to teach next door to me.

If you look at the people whom Vlad has taught directly, they have a phenomenol level of skill. Most of these guys trained with Vladimir under ten years. In fact, their exposure to Vladimir and Michael is about the same as most of the uchi deshi had to O-Sensei before they were sent off to teach. I can honestly say that these guys are operating on another level entirely. The systema teaching method is very straight forward, If you have access to the top teachers, they can and will pass on what they know to you.

Michael is off the charts as far as I am concerned in terms of the sophistication of what he can do.You definitely feel like the so-called primitives who labelled anything they didn't understand as "magic". He and Vlad are as close to "magic" as anyone I've seen but with them, there's nothing hidden. They will show you exactly how to train to develop these skills. Their senior students can do what they do, not as well as they do, yet, but they CAN do the magic as well.

One of the things that has really struck me with systema is the extent to which people will almost foam at the mouth in their efforts to de-bunk the system but they refuse to get on the mat with any of the top people. Folks have a lot of investment in hanging on to their notions of what works and what doesn't.

I can tell you that Ikeda Sensei views these guys as the real deal. I convinced Gleason Sensei to play with them at the Expo a bit. He let Vlad hit him... He told me later that Vlad hit him with a strike which looked like nothing and it hit him harder than the hardest karate punch he'd ever been hit with. He said he had no idea what Vlad had done... And what they showed at the Expo was purposely restrained...

I saw Vlad (at a seminar in Colorado I attended) do a sort of massage on a guy who held taken down in a knife free style. When Vlad got up and walked away, the guy couldn't move... Now this isn't some Dillman thing where suggestion has a lot to do with it... This fellow was just some guy who came to the seminar, not a personal student of Vlad, and there was no prior suggestion that Vlad was doing something. We thought he was given the guy a massage. But whatever he did, it temporarily reorganized the guy's nervous system and he was genuinely helpless for 20 or 30 seconds.

Jim King, one of Vlad's seniors, did a seminar at our place. He took one of my big brown belt boys and literally shut him down with a strike that looked like a flick of his hand. Scott was unable to move or breathe until Jim took it away... about the most fake thing you've ever seen til you've felt it. Scott told me he would never have believed it if he hadn't had it done to him.

The problem with systema training for Aikido people is that systema takes the opposite approach. We focus in the physical form first and consider getting to the energetics and letting go of the form as the "advanced" stuff ie shu-ha-ri... The systema folks start with no form right from the start. Their training is entirely about breaking you free from any constraints of form. And they start from day one on developing that internal power through devloping kokyu. Now it may be a different version of the energy than what Mike talks about.. I don't know. They don't train it the same way... But they have one of the most developed systems for teaching breath control that I have seen and it is integral to the system. It can't be separated out. What they do is actually a health system. the healing aspect is central to what the main guys like Vlad and Michael do. Fighting skill for them is a by product of the systema but not its point.

The reason Stan Pranin had these guys to the Expo was his belief that they had a lot to offer Aikido people. I think so too. Just make sure that you train with someone good. It's easy to do the relaxed movement stuff and look like you are doing systema. But its the internal kokyu training that is the goods. Find someone good to train with.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:36 PM   #81
Mike Sigman
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
One of the things that has really struck me with systema is the extent to which people will almost foam at the mouth in their efforts to de-bunk the system but they refuse to get on the mat with any of the top people. Folks have a lot of investment in hanging on to their notions of what works and what doesn't.
I'm not interested in either bunking or de-bunking Systema, frankly. It's interesting and there are some guys in it that can fight, etc., but my comment mainly has been that I don't see how Systema has much relationship, if any, to what Aikido does (any more than any other martial art). The point was really the video tape showing no-touch manipulation at a distance. Even to the point of slamming one guy back down on to the mat with a 2-handed gesture. My question is.... do you think these no-touch things are real and applicable in a martial situation. I.e., do the techniques on that video represent real stuff, as opposed to the hokey stuff done by Peter Young in his video clips? It's a potentially interesting conversation.

Just for the fun of it, go to Youtube and do a search on Derren Brown and some of his filmed exploits of "mind control". He has a keen interest and ability in these things and how they're done to people. You might find it very interesting to approach the "energetics" stuff from that perspective.
All the Best.

Mike
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:51 PM   #82
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Here... try these for "empty force", etc.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdJf-rTVFo



http://youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I


This could be a good conversation, because Derren Brown openly admits that he manipulates peoples' expectations... which is very much what happens in most of the martial "no touch" things. Regardless of how effective a particular martial art may be.... my point would be that I'm leary of people who use this form of psychological manipulation and mix it in as a "real" part of a martial art.

Best

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 01-17-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 01-18-2007, 02:35 AM   #83
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

I have only seen Derren Brown a couple of times, he's interesting but I'm not a particular fan. He's an illusionist come hypnotist come magician type chap. I did happen to see the program with the instant conversion. If I remember, he went around pretending to be a faith healer to convert people. From what little I've seen he doesn't claim extraordinary powers, and often explains the logic behind his "tricks".

Just googled him and found this page with more video footage and stuff

http://www.channel4.com/entertainmen...rol/index.html


I asked the question earlier in this thread, "If O Sensei were alive today performing similar feats, how would we be reacting here"? I understand, since he's not here and most of our exposure is limited to a few tapes from AJ, it's a hyperthetical question. I'm just curious as to whether he would suffer the same kind of reaction, or whether we would all be still be doing the art?

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:27 AM   #84
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
I have only seen Derren Brown a couple of times, he's interesting but I'm not a particular fan. He's an illusionist come hypnotist come magician type chap. I did happen to see the program with the instant conversion. If I remember, he went around pretending to be a faith healer to convert people. From what little I've seen he doesn't claim extraordinary powers, and often explains the logic behind his "tricks".
He seems to use a combination of verbal cues, gestures, good flowing read of people, etc. He's apparently into neuro-linguistic programming, some offshoot of Milton Method hypnosis, "mental magic", illusion, etc., all rolled into one. It's fun to watch. I certainly would never want to strike up a casual conversation with him.

But think about it for a minute. He is a master of establishing a relationship and using cues. In some place a couple of years ago, I remember reading something he said about the fact that every word, every gesture, every step of logic, etc., has been carefully thought out ahead of time so that he can do this stuff rapidly (the "stooge" has little chance). Some of the Chinese I've met are well aware of this part of human psychology and they would say that a teacher who does a lot of "no touch" controls and throws is just using "psychological power".

Now if you factor in this psychological-power stuff and you add in the ability to emit a little bit of a field (everyone can do it to some degree.... but with many people it is mostly psychological stuff)... then suddenly you have sort of a combination of psychological control augmented in the cue stages by a little bit of emission. When you get that combination, many students/stooges will swear that there is something strange there. I think it's more of the combination I just mentioned, added into the fact that students tend to open themselves up to psychological manipulation with a teacher, making it pretty easy.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:00 AM   #85
ian
 
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
...Aikido is a methodology to teach principles. These principles are universal and apply to MMA, BJJ, and any other thing you do, even picking up a heavy box...
I would agree. The instructor appeared to be proficient, but the reaction from uke was very exagerated. I suspect that the instructor is actually quite good, but that his students are effectively seeing the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon i.e. I believe what the instructor is saying as regards the principles, but there is an overtly psychadelic/flowery aspect to the training which I believe not only to be unecessary, but also misleading and diverting away from the practical application.

I believe this video does not represent the simple, direct, effective blending technique which lays at the core of aikido. Also, the psychological tricks you could use on students are extremely different to the psychological tricks you would be able to use in real attacks.

Ian

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Old 01-22-2007, 04:56 PM   #86
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Kenneth Zink wrote:
My original question though, is if there are others out there that are taught in this fashion?
Well, I have been taught in this sort of fashion, but that's because it was from Barrish Sensei.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:11 PM   #87
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
And yeah Erik, I was going to mention the koichi thing. It weirds me out when caucasians take on too much japophilia - taking on a japanese name is at the height. We're not japanese so why pretend to be? It's one step away from LARPing.
This used to bother me a little too. My roomate thought Barrish Sensei was Japanese when he heard him speak over the phone because he spoke with a Japanese manner to it. I've heard him speak in a very typical "US" accent as well. To me it makes more sense when you consider the fact that he's a trained Shinto priest who inherited the Ideta Aikijujitsu Ryu from a Japanese man...I've known plenty of people who adopted the mannerisms of those they deal with most commonly, and I've found myself adopting the verbage of those I'm around, though to a lesser extent perhaps. Personally, I see nothing wrong with things like this because ultimately they mean very little, if anything important at all.
As for the video, in general I'd say interactions like that are more about developing the sense of connection (and a subsequent responsiveness) to tori than they are about making people move however you want. Sensei Barrish has described waza as a sort of dialogue...to me this denotes responsiveness on both "sides" of the interaction...or to quote some, both should have "aliveness." Certainly people latch on to particular aspects of training and make them more than they should. I tend to be a "tanker," probably because I tend to focus on ukemi, but I've seen sensei get frustrated when i simply fell down. I lost my balance, but he seemed to think I shouldn't have fallen so quickly and was plainly annoyed by it.
His is a style that doesn't suit everyone. It is highly spiritual in orientation and for some reason that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Having grown up in a trailer park in south Everett, I can appreciate those who are put off by the "new-age"-like quality of kotodama, and the like, but such things are not necessarily exclusive to budo. I don't know where it falls on the continuum of good and bad self-defense, but I've benefited greatly from the training and have some outside validation which tells me I'm learning something both usefull and profound.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:10 PM   #88
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Wink Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

What does one do when confronted with new information; investigate or deny it?

Ask yourself about the blindfold? Do you really believe this man would have so little integrity as to stage this? Kimball Sensei says that his Dan test consisted of suwariwaza randori with a blindfold on. Think about it - O'Sensei had to do his practice with something other than strength when he was close to 80 with cancer. This is possible!

From my own experience I was studying Yoshinkan Style Aikido (non-affiliated) with a fire breathing dragon of a 5th Dan, Sensei Mike Germany (now Genshin). I believe he can do these things but I think he believed it could only be achieved through hard training over many years, because that's the way he learned. I'm older (50) and the hard training was breaking my body down, not building it up. I was wondering how I could survive 10 years to my dan test and the route practice was leading to very little progress over a long period of time. I had stopped all other physical activities (even standing because of the pain) when by chance on a business trip I visited Komyozan Dojo in Boise.

It changed my life. After 21 years in the same town I sold my business, sold my home, and I moved. And as suggested I'm not easily brainwashed or swayed.

There was never a truer statement made than when Sensei Barrish said that Ki Waza is "easier to learn because your cells already know the story!" I've been in this practice 6 months. My body is healing from the injuries sustained by the thousands of the break falls, my core strength is growing, my skill level has increased exponentially, and my mind is becoming less likely to pull away and stiffen during battle. The practice is becoming me.

It really works the way O'Sensei described it. In the moment of the attack an imbalance is created in the universe and the outcome is already decided. The attacker's Ki contracts and Nage's expands to fill the void. You only need to develop the skill set to sense it and apparently with much experience it can be done blindfolded.

As uke your breath is taken away, nage becomes a phantom, entry is no longer possible, and confusion reigns. The grunts, groans and vacant looks all happen as a result.

Judging from the responses to Ken Zink's question I would assume the answer is that only a handful of people know about this training and even fewer teach it. Making it hard or impossible for people to believe what they see.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:23 PM   #89
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
To me it makes more sense when you consider the fact that he's a trained Shinto priest who inherited the Ideta Aikijujitsu Ryu from a Japanese man...
He has been asked in the past to substantiate even the existance of an Ideta ryu. He didn't, and it has never been shown to exist, or what the difference between it and Aikido supposedly is.

Larry Novick
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:26 PM   #90
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Quote:
Ken Ashcom wrote: View Post
What does one do when confronted with new information; investigate or deny it?

snip

Judging from the responses to Ken Zink's question I would assume the answer is that only a handful of people know about this training and even fewer teach it. Making it hard or impossible for people to believe what they see.
I think it's great that you are getting something from your training.

I investigated it years ago. After seeing and speaking with Barrish and many other people, including top-level sensei and other experts in the history of Japanese martial arts, i came to my own conclusions.

I'd agree, in a sense, that not everyone necessarily teaches the subtle aspects of Aikido. I frankly do, however, and can tell the difference.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 03-15-2007, 04:50 PM   #91
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

Sensei Kimball asked me to make a correction in my post.

1) He did not take his Shodan test blindfolded. That's what he asks of his students. Blindfolded - all positions all techniques.

I guess when I heard it I really wasn't ready for that one.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:16 PM   #92
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

There are a couple of others on the YouTube site where they are moving people all around without touching them. One of them tested it against a non-sychophant, non-student MMA person and got the crap kicked out of him. It "worked" with his students. So if this over-reactive, non-touch tossing the student all around the mat from a distance works, it can be subjected to scientific validation. I'm not talking about no touch throws in general-they have a lot to do with timing, mental connection etc. I'm talking about the over-reactive or maybe overacting is a better word seen on some of the sites-one guy "throws" his student from across the mat and then rolls him all over the mat. If they can do it, then I'm impressed and it can be subjected to scientific validation under controlled conditions. If they can do it, it should not matter whether the attacker is someone off the street or another martial artist. The one demonstrator apparently really believed he could do it or he would not have taken on the MMA guy. THe result was pretty ugly-he got a bloody face as a result and was actually hurt. I kind of felt sorry for him, although his skills were pathetic, I hate to see someone get beat up.

Timing, leading, mind connection, etc. can all lead to setting someone up and taking their balance. However, there has yet to be anyone able to prove psychokinetic abilities in all the years they have been claimed.
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:02 PM   #93
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Re: Crazy Ki demonstration by Barrish Sensei

That looked a little impossible to me also! How could anyone throw a ball of energy across the room and have someone fall and roll across the floor? I would like to experience the training so that I can make up my own mind.

Also, doesn't lining up against someone to test your skills as a fighter go against the nature of what we are learning in Aikido? Isn't it "The Art of Peace" and not "The Test of Wills"?

And it does take a trained UKE. As uke of our training is to pursue Nage, no static training is involved. As uke, If I stop acting as the aggressor the conflict naturally resolves itself. If on the other hand I continue to pursue - even mentally - I am off balance and will experience the waza, through touch or no touch.

This also means that nage must be involved and perform the technique correctly. If not kaeshi occurs and the rolls reverse.
O'Sensei said that technique can be harsh or gentle.

Sensei Anderson is aware of these postings and as a demonstration performed randori with a blindfold on, then the rest of our practice was done with our eyes closed. It was his attempt to have us feel the attack before it occured. It was interesting to experience, even though I was completely ineffective.
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