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Old 12-19-2006, 10:08 AM   #51
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Ellis,
(... or Dan... or Mike... or just about anyone else more in the know than me )

I am unsure if the argument is (a) that you can learn aiki/ki/kokyu from learning 'good' ukemi, or (b) after you start learning those things from other training, one ought to apply it to one's ukemi as much as their technique, but ukemi is not in and of itself something that can 'train up' those esoteric body skills?
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:26 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Nicholas Pagnucco wrote:
I am unsure if the argument is (a) that you can learn aiki/ki/kokyu from learning 'good' ukemi, or (b) after you start learning those things from other training, one ought to apply it to one's ukemi as much as their technique, but ukemi is not in and of itself something that can 'train up' those esoteric body skills?
The answer is "b". How many guys who can do "good ukemi" have I felt with good ki/kokyu skills? You see the point.

It's kind of like the people who swear by Tai Chi as a great aid to balance for the elderly. Not really. Not as good as balance-specific exercises, as should have been obvious some time ago.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211124033.htm

Same with Aikido, if you understand and are working on your ki/kokyu skills, complementary usage of those skills in your ukemi is a plus... but it's not a primary trainer of those skills.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:36 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Yeah. Ok I can agree with that.
But Ukemi, which is, in its purest sense -receiving someones technique- is and can be a complex subject all by it self. Sometimes to help them, and bring them along. Some times to help you...while helping them. And sometimes to fully engage and do everything you can bring to bear. Which...oops helps you again while helping them....
In many respects Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba were doing their thing.....by taking Ukemi.
Folks just didn't see they were following the classic model all along.
There they were, standing. And you were doing things to them and they were responding by receiving your technique.
In the fullness of time, everyone morphed it back at them as if they were uke in attacking and "thought" of it backward. That they were receiving technique... instead of the reality that they were receiving their teachers Ukemi in response to the students attack.
I think it is the chief reason the core of the art got missed. The roles got reversed withut many even knowing or seeing why, how or where.
It was never so much about "doing" something to the others guy. At the root it was you working on you. And changing you and receiving. not trying to always "Do" something to someone.
Its all ......Ukemi.
Which is Why Takeda said it was a defensive art to begin with.

And perhaps the main reason Ueshiba bellowed "This is not my AIkido" when he went back to the Dojo of Kissomaru.

Cheers and Happy holidays to all
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-19-2006 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:44 PM   #54
MM
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Reading AikiWeb lately just makes my head hurt.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:06 PM   #55
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I'm starting to think of ukemi as "re-gifting."
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:56 PM   #56
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I'm going to make reference to myself here - but for those interested, read Part III of "Aikido is Three Peaches" on the Aikido Journal website (http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=846) which amplifies a lot of the points in this thread, including Dan's thesis that "nage is uke."
One paragraph of particular relevance follows: "There is a lovely paradox here. NAGE IS "UKE." Aikidoka of the highest skill are those created by the most skillful teachers who mindfully place the student in situations where they must learn freedom through responsiveness, kaeshiwaza and atemi implicit (and sometimes explicit) in their every move. If the student and even more so, the teacher, is not aware that this is the purpose of aikido practice, the opportunity for uke to learn how to do real aikido is lost."

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Old 12-19-2006, 03:04 PM   #57
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

And why did we not talk about this??
You continue to surprise me.....check your P.M.


Dan
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:22 PM   #58
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Why did we not talk about this? After the third mojito, I cannot recall what we spoke about.
Ellis

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Old 12-19-2006, 03:25 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Why did we not talk about this? After the third mojito, I cannot recall what we spoke about.
Ellis
I suppose "Mojito" is the diminutive for "Mojo".... as in "you had a little Mojo working", eh?

Mike
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:30 PM   #60
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I suppose "Mojito" is the diminutive for "Mojo".... as in "you had a little Mojo working", eh?

Mike
No. its the feakin Rum concoction that he's now gotten me addicted to....and they can't make to save their lives out East.
Ellis.... and his wiley ways.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-19-2006 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:13 PM   #61
crbateman
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

BEWARE the Mojito... It comes in the night, and steals your legs!
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:28 PM   #62
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

It was often the voice of the muse that Ernest Hemingway listend to while writing. In fact, I seem to remember that he was one of a few inhabitants of the "best" Havana night spots that brought the Mojito concoction back to the US. Often while imbibing the legendary Mojito your brain thinks you can walk... but your legs won't listen (even in the afternoon...).

A Safe, Peaceful, and Joyful Holiday Season to All,

Chuck Clark
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:46 PM   #63
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hiya Chuck,

You're brain still works after imbibing Mojitos's? Dang...I just kinda lay still, admiring the ceiling.

A Happy and safe holiday season to all of you guys.....from an aiki web lurker...
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:59 PM   #64
eyrie
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I suppose "Mojito" is the diminutive for "Mojo".... as in "you had a little Mojo working", eh?

Mike
More like VOODOO...

I'm surprised they can't make a decent concoction out East, Dan.... considering that Mass. was famous for its rum distilleries in the 1750s...

It's the 160 proof stuff that'll kill you... well quite a few brain cells at least....

But we are seriously getting off topic...

Ignatius
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Old 12-20-2006, 12:20 AM   #65
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Well Its 2:00 am here.
Just got in from 7 hours straight training Whiile you lazy arses were gabbin..
I'm having?
A vodka gimlet.
Cheers' to all.

Tobs!!! Holy crap!! Good to hear from you.

Time to go nighty nights for me.
Dan
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Old 12-20-2006, 12:01 PM   #66
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
It's the 160 proof stuff that'll kill you... well quite a few brain cells at least....

But we are seriously getting off topic...
There's a joke to be made about the spirit of aikido, but I'll just walk away from that one
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:12 AM   #67
Mark Freeman
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I'm having?
A vodka gimlet.
Cheers' to all.
Another one Dan? be careful those, Russians are sneaky, they'll be under your bed before you know it

Cheers (hic!)

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:36 AM   #68
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Apropos the posts before the mojitos, note the following interview with Inoue Kyoichi of the Yoshinkan. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=313. In particular:
1. Shioda riding on the train with Ueshiba holding the latters iron fan, asked to hit him when he fell asleep
2. A comparison of Yukawa (amazingly strong ex-judoka prewar deshi unable to execute a technique on a visiting judoka that Akazawa (much less strong, aikido only deshi) was then able to execute
3. Tenryu practicing with Shioda
4. Shioda helping out Kushida when teaching the riot police.

All relevant to the question of who is "taking" ukemi, nage or uke - - - or both.

Best

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Old 12-22-2006, 11:03 AM   #69
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Well, we both know we agree
You already know my views about "Folks going full speed in the wrong direction."
What is pertinent and food for thought for others is- who was doing what, and why? What can be accomplished? This idea, and the subject of the thread, is most certainly not....a surface discussion. It has depth and purpose and is the first step to serious progress.

Happy holidays
Dan
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:40 AM   #70
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

It seems to me, and in my personal experience, the "secrets" of aikido lie in the ukemi.

I've also noticed that when I go around taking ukemi for everyone, I tend to feel much better later and the next day. Could be the exercise I get from it. Being Nage, you don't get much of a cardio workout, but being thrown around everywhere and having to get up and attack again and again.....

Not to mention, the fun part is being thrown, or having to take ukemi.

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Old 01-17-2007, 11:25 AM   #71
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Eric

Not to put to fine a point on it...but taking falls has nothing at all to do with the central point here. It is learning to "stand" against all odds that is the "ukemi" Ueshiba was doing and that Ellis and I are talking about. Not learning to fall down better.
I would suggest reviewing this and the other similar threads about ukemi. Read the replies. There is profound lack of understanding of this central point. Further the "true believers" are so stuck, so mired, that all they can do is talk about how the teeny-tiny, and narrow, act or skill of better landing. Then how it helped them fall of a bicycle and land safely and relegate "ukemi" to that. For this reason they will never find Ueshiba's skills they are looking for.

As an aside I can say I saw the skills and body method I have been discussing being shown to a koryu teacher who had trained with Ueshiba. When the skills were being demonstrated and even being taught to the koryu adept. The Kory teacher stopped and said "Yes! This is Ueshiba's Aikido. They don't teach that anymore you know. Its not in modern aikido."
The thing is-the person demonstrating? Wasn't from Aikido.
There is an understanding of these things and a way to learn them, it goes beyond learning to fall down better. Modern AIkido is what it is. It is a seperate entity with a rationale all it own. Again I'd suggest to each person- are you doing what the old man was doing?
Are you even on the right track?
Continuing to think these skills are propietary to Aikido is a mistake. They are in many arts and can be used in Aikido, Daito ryu, Xing-I, Taiji and bagua. They are fundemental truths of the human body in balance and interplay.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-17-2007 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:45 PM   #72
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As an aside I can say I saw the skills and body method I have been discussing being shown to a koryu teacher who had trained with Ueshiba. When the skills were being demonstrated and even being taught to the koryu adept. The Kory teacher stopped and said "Yes! This is Ueshiba's Aikido. They don't teach that anymore you know. Its not in modern aikido."
The thing is-the person demonstrating? Wasn't from Aikido.
That's a substantial "aside". As usual, I don't have answers, only questions:

1) When did you see this, and where?
2) Who was demonstrating the "skills and body method"?
3) What occurred in the demonstration?
3) Who was the "koryu teacher who had trained with Ueshiba"?
4) What was that teacher's art?
5) When did the koryu teacher train with Ueshiba, and for how long?
6) What else, if anything, did the koryu teacher say about the demonstration?
7) Would that koryu teacher be willing to participate directly in this and similar discussions?

Or is this just another case of:

1) Dan knows something special that we don't know.
2) Other people have said that what Dan has is special, but Dan can't reveal his sources because it's confidential.
3) We can't learn this except from Dan or someone like him.
4) We won't learn it in our own dojo.
5) Dan might show it to us, but only if we come to see him, and it will take a long time (if ever) for us to get it.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:21 PM   #73
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

That example was offered to make a point. And though that happened in a room with witnesses-the players are private. Make of it what you will. I really don't care about your opinion, Jim.
As for being "special?" Well, I have said over and over and over- there are many who "know this stuff" in various ways. This defies me being anything "special" at all. A point you continually miss. And as for taking along time to "get it." This all started with me stating you can learn substantial skills in a few years. Missed that too eh? Unfortunately, the majority still don't know these things.
You have stated openly you only want to learn from Aikido and it antecendents. I think thats a good plan for you. Good luck with that.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-17-2007 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:49 PM   #74
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
That example was offered to make a point. And though that happened in a room with witnesses-the players are private. Make of it what you will. I really don't care about your opinion, Jim.
What was the point? And how "private" is it if you bring it into a discussion on the web? And where did I offer an opinion?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As for being "special?" Well, I have said over and over and over- there are many who "know this stuff" in various ways. This defies me being anything "special" at all. A point you continually miss.
I don't miss it at all --- that's why I said "Dan or someone like him."
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
You have stated openly you only [emphasis added] want to learn from Aikido and it antecendents.
Would you please point out where I said that? Thanks.

By the way, how about answering the question you posed a while back:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Last, why did I change my mind about helping [aikido and its practitioners]? Now that IS an interesting question
Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 01-17-2007 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:55 AM   #75
ian
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I hate to join this rapidly growing thread but...

IMO, the whole uke/nage thing in aikido is just another training method which is different to other martial arts. All martial arts have flaws in their training method. Judo took out dangerous techniques to allow more spontaneous response, karate had kata (which resulted in many techniques being completely lost or misunderstood!).

Aikido did something in the middle i.e. uke could attack at full force and nage could throw them. However, it's still a bl**dy simulation! If you think otherwise, how do you get around the paradox of aikido being 'a gentle art in which you don't have to harm the attacker' yet, 'we can't have proper competitions because it's too dangerous'.

Aikido was an improvement on traditional methods of training (which was almost like a fixed, paired kata), allowing more spontaneity. However modern methods (modern Judo, and esp. BJJ) have gone even further in that direction.

Taking ukemi can maybe toughen up your body, but as (Dan?) said balance is the most important thing. Indeed the last time I got in an altercation, I didn't actually throw the person at all; I just moved and maintained good balance and they went flying. I find it quite amusing and ironic now, that probably the most important practical skill in aikido is to be able to stand upright!

Last edited by ian : 01-18-2007 at 09:00 AM.

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