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Old 12-18-2006, 07:44 AM   #26
MM
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Mark

Well I asked Rob to put one on me. And even asked him to set it in more, till I was in pain. Then I blew it up instantly. I'd be willing to guess he'll tell you he hasn't had anyone just sort of look at him and take the power away. But yes that's internal and its a pretty low level skill. There are other ways to handle things like lock attempts. Students see us do them when we take ukemi, then they learn to do them as well. Pretty much they learn to lock and learn to undo them. Thus they learn a positive response to an attack not a passive one.

Cheers
Dan
Morning Dan,

Thanks for the explanation. If it wasn't ukemi, but internal ... hmmm ... so if Ueshiba was using internal skills in that way, then why did he not do ukemi?

As Ellis states, traditionally, the teacher is in the uke role. But, also, as Ellis states, if taking joint locks was learning ki/kokyu skills, then where did ukemi fit in?

Erg, I'm not getting my main point across. Hate the Internet/rather talk. Even though taking ukemi is for developing ki/kokyu skills, why did Ueshiba change the teaching methodology such that he was tori more than uke? Wouldn't feeling how Ueshiba negated a joint lock provide more instructional value than him doing the technique on someone else? Or could he train people better by guiding them, through him being tori?
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:52 AM   #27
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:
This of course isn't much of a problem when I uke for my teacher, he may be 64 but he's still physically in incredibly good shape (irrespective of his technical ability). When he visited us in Aberdeen last weekend I was his uke for ten exhausting minutes at the end of a lesson he taught. I only caught glimpses of stunned grins on the faces of my students whilst flying through the air, I suppose to them it must've been fun watching Mike Sensei getting thrown around like a rag doll
I have to admit that I did chuckle several times; partly due to the technique but mostly to do with your facial expression !
.....Especially when he popped you in the ribs! Or should I say, when your ribs popped him in the fist!
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:05 AM   #28
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hi Mark
All we really have is speculation.
Did he really end up making another him?
Not really
But Takeda made Him, made Sagawa, Made Kodo, made Hisa.
So we can all ask "Whats up wth that?"

As for Ukemi and Ueshiba?To think of your question in another way.
(I hate saying this and I held it back for years)
All Ueshiba did -was- take Ukemi.

It was hidden in plain site. and just like someone in this thread suggested-it never involved falling down.

Mark,Ueshiba was taking Ukemi in just about all his videos....all the time....wasn't he? Don't get it yet?
I -was- taking Ukemi for your efforts the night we met...was I not?
Remember what I said and then showed about full speed in the wrong direction?
This type of thinking is a different way to look at it.
What did it accomplish with you? You felt things you thought were not possible, you "saw" a different way and a different approach. A smart fella would say. "Do I keep flopping around and doing the mid-level game on the slow elevator? Or do I take the stairs?"
Tohei left, Kissomaru, so did Shioda.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:20 AM   #29
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Mark
All we really have is speculation.
Did he really end up making another him?
Not really
But Takeda made Him, made Sagawa, Made Kodo, made Hisa.
So we can all ask "Whats up wth that?"

As for Ukemi and Ueshiba?To think of your question in another way.
(I hate saying this and I held it back for years)
All Ueshiba did -was- take Ukemi.

It was hidden in plain site.

Ueshiba was taking Ukemi in just about all his videos....all the time....wasn't he? Don't get it yet? I -was- taking Ukemi for your efforts the night we met...was I not?
Remember what I said and then showed about full speed in the wrong direction?
This type of thinking is a different way to look at it.
What did it accomplish with you? You felt things you thought were not possible, you "saw" a different way and a different approach. A smart fella would say. "Do I keep flopping around and doing the mid-level game on the slow elevator? Or do I take the stairs?"
Tohei left, Kissomaru, so did Shioda.

Cheers
Dan
Dan,
Yeah, agree that a lot is speculation. But, another question, which I don't know the answer to, is did Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa create someone like them? Another version of that level? If not, then have we lost something that Takeda had and taught to a few?

Hmmm ... guess it's time to review the videos again. And order more.

And yes, it's definitely a different way of looking at it. It's why I posted on the other thread about "catching air". Can't argue with you on that. That's why I'm going up the stairs.

Mark
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:26 AM   #30
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
But Takeda made Him, made Sagawa, Made Kodo, made Hisa.
So we can all ask "Whats up wth that?"
No offense, Dan, but I've asked this before. WHAT is with this constant year-in, year-out reminder that Ueshiba got some of what he learned from Takeda??? It's pretty much an accepted deal by everyone I know that yes, DR played a big part in Ueshiba's background. You've just about flayed a dead-horse into the next universe, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:29 AM   #31
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Assumptions are quirky things, Mike. And great fun.

You don't teach people to surrender?
No, I most certainly don't.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
But you already said you threw yourself away from a punch as a begginer. And then again when more advanced.
And what makes you assume I encourage my students to do the same thing?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Then offered here that your new students opt for ukemi from a lock.
New students yes. Not once they get much higher than that. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Not everyone is physically strong enough to resist such a technique and learn from it like that. The purpose of doing things that way is to build students up rather than teach them that all aikido is is a way for the teacher to tear them down with pain. I leave that to the thugs you find elsewhere. Then when people discover they have collected too many injuries over the years as a result of training in a brutal fashion they come to us and find that they were rather stupid for doing it that way. Smashing your knuckles against a brick wall until they bleed is something only an idiot does. Picking up joint injuries from training at full resistance from the start is another thing only a fool would do. I'm not trying to break people, not tryng to teach them to surrender, my goal is to get them to my level of ability so that I have more people to practise with and learn from. That's all.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
That pretty much sums it up for me.
I was only suggesting there is a better way to train the body-and the response.
But lets save this for somewhere else. It doesn't belong in this thread.
It is the idea of ukemi and who takes it that is at hand.

Cheers
Dan
I think you need to clarify what you mean by 'surrender', but as you say its for another thread perhaps. I'll only add here that I dod NOT say that I threw myself again while more advanced. I said he would probably have to hit me now to make it have an effect, I never said that effect was that I threw myself. Although I didn't say it wasn't to be fair.

Getting back to the who takes ukemi idea. Are you sure you're just not confusing sutemi with ukemi? How would you define the difference and when would you advocate one over the other? Especially as you used the word surrender.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:32 AM   #32
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Dan,
Yeah, agree that a lot is speculation. But, another question, which I don't know the answer to, is did Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa create someone like them? Another version of that level? If not, then have we lost something that Takeda had and taught to a few?Mark
No comment.........



Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Hmmm ... guess it's time to review the videos again. And order more.

And yes, it's definitely a different way of looking at it. It's why I posted on the other thread about "catching air". Can't argue with you on that. That's why I'm going up the stairs.

Mark
If you look close you will see him do things I think you will now recognize and have a better, basic understanding of. "Hidden in plain site" takes on a whole new meaning, demystifies the approach and then makes it at least available to you to train.

Ukemi as-a-teacher.... as a means to power.
Ueshiba to Tenryu..."push me, push me up that hill."
Ueshiba to Shioda push me.....

Hmmm.......Tenryu graduates in three months. Ueshiba tells him "Go...now no one will be abke to throw you or touch you.
Shioda (also trained in DR) leaves and becomes..well...shioda.

How are we..Ellis, Mike, Rob and me saying anything new.....at all?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:34 AM   #33
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Jo Duncan wrote:
I have to admit that I did chuckle several times; partly due to the technique but mostly to do with your facial expression !
.....Especially when he popped you in the ribs! Or should I say, when your ribs popped him in the fist!
Yeah, that one still hurts a little, I suspect that the kirikaeshi doh at kendo didn't help. Was fine until the new girl missed the bogu. OUCH!

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:37 AM   #34
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

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Mike Sigman wrote:
No offense, Dan, but I've asked this before. WHAT is with this constant year-in, year-out reminder that Ueshiba got some of what he learned from Takeda??? It's pretty much an accepted deal by everyone I know that yes, DR played a big part in Ueshiba's background. You've just about flayed a dead-horse into the next universe, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
You missed the point Mike. Mark was speculating why others don't get what the few have. I don't have a provable answer, do you?
Mostly its just more questions and speculations. I do always try to expand it beyond Ueshiba to others in the Aiki arts who were just as good, -though Ueshiba's own students considered Takeda better. Many considered Sagawa amazing. Takeda taught thousands but so few got it.
It does nothing to take away from Ueshiba. Its more of a broader quesion of ..in that whole "Aiki" milue.....which Ellis researching....Why wasn't it openly taught or was it?
It leaves many to ask "What the heck?"
I will openly speculate that were we to follow folks around at home.....they aren't doing the work.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:15 AM   #35
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

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Rupert Atkinson wrote:
If that kid's still doing Aikido he'll have a lot to BOAST about - I threw Ueshiba! Well, almost; well, not quite; well, actually, not at all. He just sat down before the kid did anything.

Killjoy.

It was entertaining to see how Ueshiba was putting the kid's arms and hands in position and basically guiding him through the technique and gently sitting down to indicate that the technique was "completed." And the look on that kid's face is priceless... kind of "Wow, cool! I laid the Old Man down!" combined with a sheepishness that betrays even a young boy's knowledge that the "Old Man" had done the whole thing for him.

Once, a professional (and outstanding) photographer I was working with wanted me to take a picture of him sitting next to the message wall outside Graceland. He stood in my place, set the shutter speed and aperture, positioned me in the exact spot, put the (very expensive, professional, German made) camera in my hands and showed me where the button was, then went to take his pose and told me when to push the button. The photo came out fantastic. Wow. I must be a great photographer.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-18-2006 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:54 AM   #36
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Wait now...
He absorbed it in his body, sort of laid down and could have easily brought him into a guard. And!! he left his legs viable. He didn't slap out and stayed connected to the kid...

Oh..Ok....ok... doesn't count... its a kid.
But I wonder what he would have looked like

Dan

I wish we could have known what he said to the kid. Was he showing the kid he'd done it more or less the right idea and encouraging him, or was he showing the kid he'd left himself (the child) open to being pulled down the way he (the child) was doing it (with just his hand rather than his whole body)? Especially since it was a kid I can imagine so many explanations, or even that he was being a bit playful .
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Old 12-18-2006, 10:26 AM   #37
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

The kid looks pretty much like a beginner just starting to learn the moves. From the smile on Ueshiba's face, he does seem to be just having some fun. Hey, he knew he was on-camera! Great photo op. But he did put the kid's arms in position and walked him through the technique, like someone's grandpa might put his young grandkid on his lap and "walk" him through the motions of using a screwdriver or hammer, holding the child's hand with the tool in it and making the movements. Doesn't look like there's anything "deeper" than that going on.

Nice old film clip showing a different side to the "Old Man."
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Old 12-18-2006, 03:41 PM   #38
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:

New students yes. Not once they get much higher than that. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Not everyone is physically strong enough to resist such a technique and learn from it like that. The purpose of doing things that way is to build students up rather than teach them that all aikido is is a way for the teacher to tear them down with pain. I leave that to the thugs you find elsewhere. Then when people discover they have collected too many injuries over the years as a result of training in a brutal fashion they come to us and find that they were rather stupid for doing it that way. Smashing your knuckles against a brick wall until they bleed is something only an idiot does. Picking up joint injuries from training at full resistance from the start is another thing only a fool would do. I'm not trying to break people, not tryng to teach them to surrender, my goal is to get them to my level of ability so that I have more people to practise with and learn from. That's all.

I think you need to clarify what you mean by 'surrender', but as you say its for another thread perhaps. I'll only add here that I dod NOT say that I threw myself again while more advanced. I said he would probably have to hit me now to make it have an effect, I never said that effect was that I threw myself. Although I didn't say it wasn't to be fair.

Getting back to the who takes ukemi idea. Are you sure you're just not confusing sutemi with ukemi? How would you define the difference and when would you advocate one over the other? Especially as you used the word surrender.

Mike
Hi Mike
I'm earnestly trying to get an idea across and not to argue with you ...fair enough? I was just going by what you wrote. Which as a model, seemed like a typical description of aikido waza and ukemi. Taking rolls and falls as an option to a lock or strike. No harm no foul.
I just cannot image falling down as a response to someone trying to lock me in anything or to being hit. I mean in the clearest sense with the way we train if you hit... we will respond... yes. But it is a positive one that is invasive and controlling either in intent or motion. They are different

I thought I did a fairly good job of explaining myself, Mike. I agree with you about body damage and wrecked joints and hands. I've been doing this along time. I'm fit as a fiddle. I run lift and train every day. EVERY day. I have no injuries or debiliting joints from the way I train.
We train smart, eat smart and we live smart. I have men who have trained with me for years. Yes we have occasional injuries like everyone else but no more no less. Please don't misread my lengthy replies as muscle bound body wreckers. Where did that come from? We are in agreement about not doing -or having to do-things that wreck your body.
Sutemi and Ukemi
I think I just might be one of the last people you would ever know who would confuse sutemi with ukemi. I adore sutemi waza. It's great as an active ukemi but its not the same thing.
I think its you who are having trouble with understanding my points. mostly due to your training goals.
Ukemi as a different model
Mat Hughes and B.J. penn were both taking Ukemi
So were Lidell and Coutoure
So was Hagler and Sugar Ray
Ueshiba every day on the mat

To assume you need to move like an aikidoka to take or receive technique is a huge error.
I think if you review again the answers I have given you already. I spoke of beinging folks along before you did. Taking ukemi for them so I can lead them to where I want them to go. Including getting poked yanked and thrown so they learn better.....faster.
That IS caring Mike. Wouldn't you agree? It sounds like you agree with that but we are talking past eache other a bit.
Please remember there are thousands of guys training in MMA ever week...no one is geeting rushed to the hospital all over the place.
Then again if tyou go back a few years Aikido Journal published a damning report on the injuries in AIkido Dojo at university in Japan.
Was Aikido more violent or martial?
Hardly, it was through cooperation and passive agressive treatment of students.
There are ways to train agressively...and safe. Taking Ukemi for your students is a great start.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:16 PM   #39
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Think we're probably talking at cross purposes here. Sent you a PM.

Cheers

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 12-18-2006, 05:23 PM   #40
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I don't think Dan is being cryptic or obtuse...

Learning ukemi, what Dan refers to as the "active" sort - actually, it would be more appropriate to call it "passive" , where one learns to take a fall from a throw is fun and a good endurance/conditioning workout. BUT at some point, one must move beyond to the next level, where the student needs to learn to discern and exploit the windows of opportunity for kaeshi and henka.

I think this is what Dan is saying?

If you care about your students, you'd take ukemi for them and help them learn faster by foiling their technique, reversing it on them, allowing them to lock you and attempt to throw - then reversing it, and by being immovable and unlockable - to get them to YOUR level where they can start to defeat your technique in precisely the same way.... so that YOU can learn too. Selfish ulterior motive? Perhaps....

Because, there is no difference between ukemi of the outward variety (falling over) and the internal ukemi one is doing as nage. They are 2 sides of the same coin. ONE and the SAME thing.

The problem is, most people see that as being a "jerk", not knowing nor understanding that it provides them with a GOLDEN opportunity to study WHY their technique didn't work and HOW to fix it. And often they will resort to muscular force in an attempt to make it work, which then presents you with the opportunity to test how unlockable or immovable you can make yourself.... amongst other things....

Ignatius
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:26 PM   #41
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I think the basic point Dan is making is that Aikidoka allow themselves to be thrown too much - not too easily (different problem), but too much. Dan wants to refine that 'being thrown' skill and use it to thwart the attack, to escape it, or to reverse it.
Aikidoka call the same practise kaeshi-waza, label it advanced, and so rarely practise it. It only remains advanced because it is labeled as advanced. The problem with kaeshi-waza, though, is that it too demands that tori become uke and receive full ukemi and be thrown! Mad, huh?

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Old 12-18-2006, 07:13 PM   #42
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I think there is a reason for it... ukemi (getting thrown) can be a tool for developing connection and structure, whilst at the same time it can be a form of body conditioning. It depends on the purpose and goals to which one is training for.

Personally I enjoy the physical workout from doing lots of "getting thrown". But these days, it is more of a choice of whether I take the fall or not. If my student hasn't got my balance and even if they do, I have a multitude of choices available to me, including reversing it, stopping it, remaining immovable, hitting them, or simply falling over. It all depends on what my goal happens to be at the time - and what I want to work on OR what I want the student to work on. And even if I do take the fall, my legs are still viable and there is always an opportunity for taking it to the ground, even as I am falling...

Quote:
The problem with kaeshi-waza, though, is that it too demands that tori become uke and receive full ukemi and be thrown!
I don't think it's necessary to be thrown... ukemi means to "receive" with the body. Receiving what? That IS the point. Not to receive a throw.... but to the point where if you do get thrown it's only because you didn't feel it coming, until the last moment when you find yourself being "pulled up"... right before you hit the mat.

As for kaeshi-waza being more "advanced"... that's also dependent on who's teaching and what they are teaching. My guys get to do this as soon as they know how to take a decent breakfall.

Ever notice at seminars that the "higher" ranking folks don't ever let you put a technique on them? Notice how they "tank" before you get to put the tech on? Hmmmm..... I wonder why that is... The worst part is that people learn by EXAMPLE.

Ignatius
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:22 PM   #43
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I think there is a reason for it... ukemi (getting thrown) can be a tool for developing connection and structure.
I agree, and I must confess to liking it. But, you can have too much of a good thing, can you not? And too much of x = not enough time for y, whatever y may be

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Old 12-18-2006, 07:26 PM   #44
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Precisely... harder to learn anything "substantial" in the way of actual "technique" when half the time all you do is fall down... and get up...

Ignatius
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:16 PM   #45
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Precisely... harder to learn anything "substantial" in the way of actual "technique" when half the time all you do is fall down... and get up...
I've got the "falling down" thing whupped... Kind of happens by itself (gravity, you know). The "getting up" thing, now that's a different story. For me, it's like tossing a dead cow up on the roof... a hundred times in an hour...
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:49 PM   #46
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
I've got the "falling down" thing whupped... Kind of happens by itself (gravity, you know). The "getting up" thing, now that's a different story. For me, it's like tossing a dead cow up on the roof... a hundred times in an hour...
Then master... standing.... up.
It's worked wonders for me.

Another case for my argument that we are doing it all wrong?
We should be getting more powerful in later years. Particularly 50-60's
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:16 PM   #47
eyrie
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Are we? I dunno... going back to Ellis' initial post, that "ukemi kept him young"...and ... "he would proceed to ease himself creakily onto the mat".... maybe we need both "types" of ukemi?

I know if I've been sitting at the computer too long, a few good throws would give me a nice "massage" and loosen things up again... in a way that standing does... only different.

Ignatius
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:58 PM   #48
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Are we? I dunno... going back to Ellis' initial post, that "ukemi kept him young"...and ... "he would proceed to ease himself creakily onto the mat".... maybe we need both "types" of ukemi?

I know if I've been sitting at the computer too long, a few good throws would give me a nice "massage" and loosen things up again... in a way that standing does... only different.
Well to each their own....all due respect I don't buy that as a method for me to build me. That' just blood flow and movement.
I do other things. I've been sitting here drafting for 14 hours interupted by rounds of solo work. Great message and the mental work (why doesn't anyone ever talk about the mental rush in all this?) is extremely stimulating.
Anyway, standing.... up.... can involve very low squatting postures and lengthy low slung strides. Dunno about anyone else but my body training translates real swell into
a. Becoming extremely difficult to throw.
b. Becoming taught and flexible at the same time
c. Having the body to take a throw without needing to train to fall down in the first place.
d. Then there's standing... standing.

All-in-one.
One-in-all
I mean since we are talking about ukemi.
And I guess I could point out the CMA old guys who in their later years.were not rolling around on the ground.Yet they are flexible and powerful.
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:16 AM   #49
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Kuroda Tetsuzan writes about how he experienced for the first time being thrown, as in, bodily thrown, during normal kata practice where one of his deshi finally got right some of the "hidden motion" that allows the kata to work so effectively. He was surprised and frightened by that feeling, and when he asked his deshi about it they responded that they felt that way too when thrown by Kuroda. So, he recounts, he realized that the techniques when done right really were dangerous and certainly not the sort of thing to pull on beginners! I suppose that kind of ukemi is the one most common in judo/bjj, where you continue to fight after having been thrown despite your efforts not to be.
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:24 AM   #50
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
We should be getting more powerful in later years. Particularly 50-60's
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

The problem is that most of us in our 50-60's are still trying to be "powerful" in the same ways we did it in their younger years. Can't happen for very long. It's just semantics, I suppose, but I (at 60) get feedback that I feel very "forceful" now instead of powerful. Good thing, to me, is that when others experience forceful effects, I don't feel much physically in the way of feedback. I'm looking forward to another twenty years of polishing and looking for more efficient and forceful training.

Safe, Peaceful, and Joyful Holiday Season to All,

Chuck Clark
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