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Old 12-19-2006, 03:11 PM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Well I now recall only one guy from Durango, so I'm assuming that was you. I also recall no extra ki forces emanating from you. Nalawai sensei on the other hand, whew! He is either enlightened or close to it. I've never seen such a positive and wonderful Aura around someone.
Wrong guy. That was Steve Self and yes, he had a name-tag on saying he was from Durango. I had no such identifying tag on me... only a small one that said "Mike". Sort of torpedos your remarks about me, eh?
Quote:
I'm not attacking you Mike. I'm trying to phrase my questions in a way that won't make you get too sensitive, but I do tire of all this verbiage without getting to the point. I want the essence of your argument.
Come visit sometime and I'll show you. If I thought I could just understand the essence of what Tohei had said from the written word, I'd have never gone to Shaner's workshop... I knew beyond doubt that it would have to be something I saw and experienced. Same goes for you, I'm sad to report. Other than that, I reported very clearly why I went and the extent of my personal observations pretty clearly in previous posts. What you're doing right now is, as far as I can tell, avoiding a clinical analysis of how ki/kokyu skills work using the Ki of the Universe. If you don't want to debate the issue, fine, but I was going by the tenor of your two posts where you told me that I didn't understand, etc.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:36 PM   #127
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Very simple to test, Erick, despite all the talk about joint rotations, 2-dimensional forces, etc. Let's put you on a furniture-dolly and push against you. If you can manipulate your joints so that there is only a vertical force going down onto the dolly, you won't move. If you cannot "convert" the horizontal push, you will move as a linear function of the horizontal force I provided. It is that simple. And you will move.
So will you, if you are using ground friction to resist a lateral thrust. If you will note at the beginning of the post:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Because of the ground friction that you are addressing, a toppling moment is created from the first input of force. So you have defined a rotational problem from the get go.
The whole horizontal "grounding" friction force you are relying upon, opposite in direction/sign to the input force creates the toppling moment that defines this as a rotational problem:

force-at-top-positive & body free
+ force-at-feet-negative & body fixed

= moment

Moment creates rotation if not constrained. If you constrain the force by a countering moment you create a lateral thrust against the ground friction, or cause the dolly wheels to roll.

There is one static load path, and one only, that carries horizontal load at the top of the structure to ground in the vertical without any lateral thrust at the support.

Do know its name?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:42 PM   #128
Gwion
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Wrong guy. That was Steve Self and yes, he had a name-tag on saying he was from Durango. I had no such identifying tag on me... only a small one that said "Mike". Sort of torpedos your remarks about me, eh? Come visit sometime and I'll show you. If I thought I could just understand the essence of what Tohei had said from the written word, I'd have never gone to Shaner's workshop... I knew beyond doubt that it would have to be something I saw and experienced. Same goes for you, I'm sad to report. Other than that, I reported very clearly why I went and the extent of my personal observations pretty clearly in previous posts. What you're doing right now is, as far as I can tell, avoiding a clinical analysis of how ki/kokyu skills work using the Ki of the Universe. If you don't want to debate the issue, fine, but I was going by the tenor of your two posts where you told me that I didn't understand, etc.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Got it!
You had a nametag, ripped off with just one corner that said MIKE in blue ink.
Still no enlightenment aura, but you seemed like a nice guy.

you know, I'm translating a Tohei sensei 1988 seminar right now that I'm going to post back up to You Tube, (the original had no subs). I suggest you watch that as well.

I'm fairly sure that Tohei sensei did not believe that ki traveled through the ground and into the body. That sounds like Shaolin Tai Chi ideas to me.

My understanding, is that ki is everywhere simultaneously, that the one point is an infinite point with inifite smallness or largeness depending on how you want to view it, and the idea of extend ki is a visualization to help you realize that you are already connected and in harmony with the entire universe.

the idea that ki has to 'travel' from somewhere to somewhere else, to me, is way it is explained to beginners to help them get a sense of this connected feeling.

A new thought that might solve this dissonance:
could it be that your visualization techniques and ki society's are different, but eventually lead to the same place?

or is that too optimistic? Does your way still work better, or is it just different?

as far as avoiding a clinical analysis of how ki/kokyu skills work using the Ki of the Universe, i would say that experience is the most important. Every Aikido class is an exercise in this, and especially Ki Society's classes take a clinical, empirical, testing approach to this. I really suggest you attend some regular classes, as you may find those more your style and less philosophical.

Last edited by Gwion : 12-19-2006 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:54 PM   #129
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Very simple to test, Erick, despite all the talk about joint rotations, 2-dimensional forces, etc. Let's put you on a furniture-dolly and push against you. If you can manipulate your joints so that there is only a vertical force going down onto the dolly, you won't move. If you cannot "convert" the horizontal push, you will move as a linear function of the horizontal force I provided. It is that simple. And you will move.
So will you, if you are using ground friction to resist a lateral thrust.
You know, Erick, I've noticed that when you make a mistake, you never apologize... you just try to baffle people with more bullshit. Here's what was said:
Quote:
Erick wrote:
Quote:
Mike wrote:
You cannot "convert" a horizontal force into a vertical force or vice versa. A force is what it is.
That is only true in a linear, two dimensional model...
Suddenly, you realize that there is a friction consideration and that I was right that forces cannot be "converted".... elementary mechanics analysis? Stop. Just say you made a mistake, for once.


Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:57 PM   #130
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
You had a nametag, ripped off with just one corner that said MIKE in blue ink.
Still no enlightenment aura, but you seemed like a nice guy.
That's enough. I told you no more personal crap.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:07 PM   #131
Gwion
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
That's enough. I told you no more personal crap.

Mike Sigman
??

jeez louise, i said you seemed like a nice guy...
did you think you were enlightened, and my comment offended you in that regard? Actually Soto-shu buddhism claims that everyone is already enlightened, so....


GET A SENSE OF HUMOR ABOUT YOURSELF DUDE.

Last edited by Gwion : 12-19-2006 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:48 PM   #132
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Walter Sigman wrote:
Wrong guy. That was Steve Self and yes, he had a name-tag on saying he was from Durango. I had no such identifying tag on me... only a small one that said "Mike". Sort of torpedos your remarks about me, eh?
I'm wondering why you can talk about your nametag, for example, but you don't want to allow others to?

If you can talk about Shaner Sensei from the seminar, why can't others talk about anyone who was at the seminar (ie. you) ?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:37 PM   #133
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

When I started this thread I was concerned that the thread about the seminar in Colorado would spill over to this thread, which was never the intention, that is why I started a new thread. Heck a few pages back Jun even asked that we stay on the original topic. To bad, as I think the original topic is an interesting one and it started out fairly well. Such is forum life.

My recommendation is to lock this beast and let the interested parties fight it out on the Colorado seminar thread.

Take care and Happy Holidays,

Mark J.
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:58 AM   #134
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You know, Erick, I've noticed that when you make a mistake, you never apologize... you just try to baffle people with more bullshit. Here's what was said: Suddenly, you realize that there is a friction consideration and that I was right that forces cannot be "converted".... elementary mechanics analysis? Stop. Just say you made a mistake, for once.
Identify my mistake. I didn't "suddenly" realize anything. I specifically relied on your argument that you are using friction in "grounding" and analyzed the frictional component in the point that I MADE. Do you understand what a moment is? You don't address the issue of the toppling moment and its rotational potential, which comes from the fixing of the foot by friction and an impinging force at a higer point on the body -- which was my point.

If you are not using friction then there is no lateral thrust at the support and there is one compressive load path that provides that hozontal load to vertical "conversion" without bending stress ( i.e - "relaxed").

Do you know its name?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:45 AM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Go look at what I said, Erick. Forces cannot be "converted" from horizontal to vertical because the horizontal component is still there, *even if you vector add the forces*. You're trying to equate vector-addition of forces with "converting". Forces cannot be converted, as I originally stated and which you don't seem to understand. Or if you suddenly do understand that I was being precise, you're too proud to admit your error.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:45 AM   #136
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Ya know Eric we were actually talking about you last night in my Dojo. I have had yet another person who has trained with Ark here to train. One of things that we talked about is the difficulty in writing and explaining compared to the ease of showing ....if....the teacher is willing. It is apparently thrilling for people who are begining to research this path, to have people who can *actually" do various things, then let you feel it, then explain in plain language how to do it for themselves, then bring them along with training they can do to build their bodies conections.

Mindful that you have honestly and honorably admitted you cannot do many of things outlined in my examples- what are we left with?
Formatting and discussing static engineering models to describe tangential forces and moment connections? And then arguing semanitcs for handling and allowing for a horizontal force VS "converting" it.
For most people.....these discussions are the same as training with a teacher for twenty years while they drop hints on the floor and talk to you in a different language.
It has no value. Oh.....back to discussing you. We have a guy who can't do much, but when asked, will talk you into the ground and many are left thinking he's an expert. Like at the end of another one of your overly long dissertations that go nowhere and leave folks unable to do anything meaningfull. I walk up, wake up his training partner out of his stupor and say "Here feel this, and now do that." "Stop talking so much....train" And they are on their way.
I'll take the fella who can do, and who can show and who cares enough about those who come to him to explain in plain language.

Happy holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-20-2006 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:10 AM   #137
Gwion
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Ya know Eric we were actually talking about you last night in my Dojo. I have had yet another person who has trained with Ark here to train. One of things that we talked about is the difficulty in writing and explaining compared to the ease of showing ....if....the teacher is willing. It is apparently thrilling for people who are begining to research this path, to have people who can *actually" do various things, then let you feel it, then explain in plain language how to do it for themselves, then bring them along with training they can do to build their bodies conections.

Mindful that you have honestly and honorably admitted you cannot do many of things outlined in my examples- what are we left with?
Formatting and discussing static engineering models to describe tangential forces and moment connections? And then arguing semanitcs for handling and allowing for a horizontal force VS "converting" it.
For most people.....these discussions are the same as training with a teacher for twenty years while they drop hints on the floor and talk to you in a different language.
It has no value. Oh.....back to discussing you. We have a guy who can't do much, but when asked, will talk you into the ground and many are left thinking he's an expert. Like at the end of another one of your overly long dissertations that go nowhere and leave folks unable to do anything meaningfull. I walk up, wake up his training partner out of his stupor and say "Here feel this, and now do that." "Stop talking so much....train" And they are on their way.
I'll take the fella who can do, and who can show and who cares enough about those who come to him to explain in plain language.

Happy holidays
Dan
Dan Harden is cool.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:23 AM   #138
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Oh my head hurts!! I been doing this budo stuff for well over 40 years and I got degrees in Sociology and Engineering from a real growed up University in Indiana but you people are driving me to drink. THANKS!!!

Sinned Rekooh

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Old 12-20-2006, 10:08 AM   #139
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I'm pretty familiar with that paradigm, my first Aikido school was founded by Kurita Minouru, who left the Aikikai with Tohei Sensei and then decided to go it alone. We still used a lot of the teaching methodologies and principles from the Ki Society however. My problem with the "Relax Completely" phrase is that it's misleading. Often people are indeed too tense, but a certain ammount of tension is needed to perform any technique. Personally I'm much more of a fan of, "relax correctly." That phrase carries the implication that there is more to know, and that the correct movements are not based solely on relaxation, but that it does play a very real part in the process. (pet peeve...)
I agree Chris. Evere since the first Expo when I had my major epiphany about what was really going on in Aikido I have been refining my own technique. It's really interesting the levels and levels of tension in our bodies. The real issue is where that tension comes from, what is its cause? You can't really get rid of it on a deep level without understanding that.

No system I have seen is as sophisticated about dealing with this as the systema. One of my friends who is heavily into systema told me that Vlad had said that there is another word for the systema which translates as "know yourself". I think that their focus on finding and releasing the tension in the body is based on the understanding that this tension originates in the mind, Fear creates tension. They have a very systematic way of practicing that is designed to release that tension but also get at the root cause. There is a healing aspect to the practice which, I believe Michael and Vlad actually see as the central point of the systema. All that striking work they do not only serves to decondition your fear of being struck and your fear of pain but it is aslo a very sophisticated form of deep massage.

Anyway, as I have identified for myself what the various principles are that function in "aiki", I have been able to teach them fairly successfully. I am in complete agreement with Dan on this. This stuff is principle based and those principles can be taught. I would say that almost all of my students at 3rd kyu and up understand what they are "trying" to do. They have all experienced what it feels like to do a technique with "aiki", if only under a very controlled circumstance. I am coming to see that, understanding the principles isn't enough. The inability that my students have to do their technique properly on a consistent basis doesn't come so much from not understanding what they should be doing. It comes from the fact that they can't relax their minds enough to do it in their bodies. They all carry too much tension and that tension is a direct product of all of their fears.

In my opinion this is one place at which you find out why Aikido really needs to have a spiritual component. In order to function in Aikido at a high level, you have to really start to look at and deal with what the various things are that make you afraid. For many people, especially the buff boys, this isn't fear of physical pain. It can be fear of embarrassment, fear of not measuring up, fear of having others do better than they do, fear of rejection, it goes on and on. Aikido training needs to make one aware of these issues and help you progressively release that tension.

My students are now caught in the middle. They are far more relaxed than ever before, as I am. We've had some visitors comment on it who have seen these folks every year for many years and they have commented on it. But what they have not yet been able to is to relax and keep their energy flowing so that they don't collapse. In other words they still mostly relax too much and you can get inside their technique and crush them. They are at that stage where they are just about ready to make the jump to something at a much higher level but are stalled at that point where everything stops working for a while.

I see this tension issue as the central aspect of what we do. It's a lot like Enlightenment in Zen in the sense that, you can get to the point at which you start to understand how to relax the body enough to start doing technique with "aiki". But just as with kensho in Zen, it doesn't end there, it really just starts there. It has to continue, one has to go deeper. I think that if folks were to understand this aspect of practice, they would come to understand just why Aikido is primarily a spiritual pursuit. Aikido is about dealing with your ****! But in a very practical, body centered way.

Find the tension through training. Find the root cause of that tension. Release the tension. Train some more. That's how I see training at this point. The rest is just mechanics. If we start to really deal with our fears, we start to relax. When we start to relax, we start to find that place in our lives where we stop fighting everything, stop resisting. I think that is ultimately the Kannagara no Michi which O-Sensei talked about. On the mat it is this release of fear and the tension that creates Take Musus Aiki. Technique simply arises out of the state of non-resistance.

However, one doesn't deal with ones fears by hiding from them. This is why correctly done hard practice is important.The most basic form of fear, and the easiest to deal with in some ways, is simply the fear of being hit or hurt. Training must be vigorous enough that it pushes your buttons in this area. Too many Aikido people suck the energy out of the training in some misguided desire to make the practice comfortable for the students. This may be necessary to pay the bills but it isn't conducive to teaching your students to deal with their fears. Most Aikido dojos I see are busy trying to protect their students from their fears. Train like that and twenty years later you are still afraid of the same things because you have never dealt with them. Actually, if one looks at any given dojo, the structure of the training there will be a direct reflection of the fears of the Chief Instructor. But that's probably a topic for late night discussion over a beer or two. Not a good one for on-line.

Anyway, I don't know of any system that puts more emphasis on this area than systema and I would recommend that Aikido folks become familiar with how they train. There are many lessons for us in Aikido in what they do and it won't require any change in what you do, just how you go about doing it.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 12-20-2006 at 10:15 AM.

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Old 12-20-2006, 10:20 AM   #140
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi George


You guys are far more elequant than I am. You just went along way round to saying....exactly....what I have been saying for years.
Severe training-in my case MMA-with pain, is a way to train men to work through it as an issue, while remaining focused and relaxed and moving. Facng it, changes you. Some (Hi, Dennis) live it.

Many, from fear, deny this to be true in their training and train in a casual non challenging environment and consider it a form of abuse. It most assuredly not and just happens to be a superior model to actually train men to live and face life-with all its fears.

I also love the model of the chief instructor. More people enter Budo "with issues." and move on up without dispensing with them. Finding a healthy mind, with substantial skiils is one thing. Finding one that can teach and get others there is even more difficult.
To have that and be able to train safe with pain and thresholds while remaining open in spirit and form is quite telling.
One, the pain is greatly reduced to the point of being incidental. Secondly, the relaxed mind reads things much faster. Third the connected body, held by the relaxed mind moves as whoile much faster, and in a joined fachion that is superior to most anything.

Last is something I have been saying on the net and to those who train with me for years. This training gives you a feeling of living "free in the world" that is hard to describe. It is THEE sense of empowerment and lack of fear and...........makes forgiveness seem easy to do, giving seem natural. Forgiving and acceptance is a very powerful tool.
Ok OK,,,I'm gonna get slammed....put the granola away. but I'd suggest there is a better way.

It's why I loved systema the moment I had it explained to me by a mutual friend of ours. Not the total training regimen but the goals and many of the methods.
Many fighters and wrestlers have a relaxed sense of acceptance and confidance born of trial. Many in BJJ as well. The Gracie family adopts a wholestic way of life also. Vlad is spiritually on that path as well...full speed.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-20-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:20 AM   #141
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hay George I agree. When I was visiting you the systema folks from next door dropped by to watch all day. After class we had a chance to talk and touch and I feel a strong kinship with those people. I would like to spend more time with them.

Dennis

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Old 12-20-2006, 10:44 AM   #142
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

I just wanted to tie-in what I thought pertained to Aikido.

Its why I was moved by Ueshibas "idea" or vision This single idea that once he discovered the truths of Daito ryu- Its internal power, that he didn't have to be moved to violence. Its also why I keep offering Takeda, Sagawa and Kodo as models. They discovered it as well but were of a different mindsets on how to use it. Ueshiba, being in the right place and time looked beyond to what he could do with "it." He could face, and stop, incoming forces at will without causing harm. But without that skill, born out of full resistence and trial you have...well.....aikido as it is today.

These skills, once shown, once built in the body, and trained ....are the lamp that lets you discover his foot steps. For Aikido, everything other than that is, full speed......in the wrong direction.

I gotta stop. I feel compelled to go hug a tree, and eat a granola bar
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-20-2006 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:58 AM   #143
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I
I gotta stop. I feel compelled to go hug a tree, and eat a granola bar
Cheers
Dan

Well you know what they say. You are what you eat! Lets see granola = fruits, nuts and flakes.

Looking for red meat and 26 year old scotch here.

Dennis

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Old 12-20-2006, 11:04 AM   #144
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

ooooooh!!

Dan, walks into whole.... presented by Dennis.
Crunch crunch...munch munch.
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Old 12-20-2006, 11:19 AM   #145
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Thank you George. Great post and many good things to discuss and evaluate.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Last is something I have been saying on the net and to those who train with me for years. This training gives you a feeling of living "free in the world" that is hard to describe. It is THEE sense of empowerment and lack of fear and...........makes forgiveness seem easy to do, giving seem natural. Forgiving and acceptance is a very powerful tool.
Ok OK,,,I'm gonna get slammed....put the granola away. but I'd suggest there is a better way.
Dan,
This was my favorite part of your post and it explains what I have been learning and feeling the last few years.......and I do not even like granola.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:21 PM   #146
Gwion
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Like I said before Dan rocks.

--WW
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Old 12-20-2006, 04:56 PM   #147
eyrie
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Man.... I would like to write like George does...

Masakatsu agatsu... when we stop "fighting" with ourselves (i.e. holding tension, fear, etc. etc.)... "fighting" against everything around us....

Hmmm.... definitely more "tree hugging".

Ignatius
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:05 PM   #148
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The real issue is where that tension comes from, what is its cause? You can't really get rid of it on a deep level without understanding that.
I definitely agree with George here. This is not to take anything away from the mechanics that have been discussed as those are also vitally important for accomplishing physical tasks. If one wants to move beyond physical prowess and make fundamental improvements in ones life I believe one must look beyond the pure mechanics and strive to understand the mind and spirit that drives the machine.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
There is a healing aspect to the practice which, I believe Michael and Vlad actually see as the central point of the systema. All that striking work they do not only serves to decondition your fear of being struck and your fear of pain but it is aslo a very sophisticated form of deep massage.
Spot on here as well. And there is even more to this type of training. The striking work, both striking another and being struck, has a tremendous amount to do with understanding and dealing with ones ego. The ego is a slippery thing but the strike training forces one to examine his/her own ego closely. While this is often scary the potential benefits are enormous. Likewise the deep massage George mentions above can have surprising and often scary short term affects as the body releases stored emotions but the long term benefits are extremely positive, both physically and emotionally. The strike training is also a great opportunity to train awareness as the tendency is to focus on only one sense and get drawn into the struck area. By learning to constantly switch from one sense to another, one learns to maintain vital awareness under duress and how to change ones emotions by changing their perception. All valuable skills that can be used in every day life in countless applications.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Anyway, as I have identified for myself what the various principles are that function in "aiki", I have been able to teach them fairly successfully. I am in complete agreement with Dan on this. This stuff is principle based and those principles can be taught. I would say that almost all of my students at 3rd kyu and up understand what they are "trying" to do. They have all experienced what it feels like to do a technique with "aiki", if only under a very controlled circumstance. I am coming to see that, understanding the principles isn't enough. The inability that my students have to do their technique properly on a consistent basis doesn't come so much from not understanding what they should be doing. It comes from the fact that they can't relax their minds enough to do it in their bodies. They all carry too much tension and that tension is a direct product of all of their fears.
George, if I might impose can you share with us what the principles of aiki are as you see them and how you have learned to teach them to your students? Either here or on another thread. Possibly I have missed this in another thread if so please let me know and I will look it up. Also please address how you are helping your students identify and work through their fears. This continues to be a focus at each of my classes and hearing how others deal with this topic is always interesting and helpful. Thanks.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I see this tension issue as the central aspect of what we do. It's a lot like Enlightenment in Zen in the sense that, you can get to the point at which you start to understand how to relax the body enough to start doing technique with "aiki". But just as with kensho in Zen, it doesn't end there, it really just starts there. It has to continue, one has to go deeper. I think that if folks were to understand this aspect of practice, they would come to understand just why Aikido is primarily a spiritual pursuit. Aikido is about dealing with your ****! But in a very practical, body centered way.
Great points. I believe that one can achieve tremendous physical results by avoiding the spiritual pursuits and focusing purely on the physical mechanics. The problem is if they haven't dealt with their own ****! (as George says) they are in danger of losing themselves in their own ego. To have tremendous physical ability without grounding your spiritual state is generally a recipe for disaster. One can not truly be centered without dealing with and training all aspects of the self.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
However, one doesn't deal with ones fears by hiding from them. This is why correctly done hard practice is important.The most basic form of fear, and the easiest to deal with in some ways, is simply the fear of being hit or hurt. Training must be vigorous enough that it pushes your buttons in this area.
Amen!


Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:08 PM   #149
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
I believe that one can achieve tremendous physical results by avoiding the spiritual pursuits and focusing purely on the physical mechanics. The problem is if they haven't dealt with their own ****! (as George says) they are in danger of losing themselves in their own ego. To have tremendous physical ability without grounding your spiritual state is generally a recipe for disaster. One can not truly be centered without dealing with and training all aspects of the self.
I have seen variations of this type of discussion for many years in a number of martial arts. Generally, I avoid devoting much thought to it because most of the martial arts that I know of seems to have experts who pay all different amounts of attention to the "spiritual" pursuits... i.e., there never seems to be a strong correlation between someone's physical expertise and their spiritual development. Take a look at just some of the personalities in Aikido who studied at Hombu Dojo, as an example. But this type of example holds true for most of the martial arts that I know of.

I always have this question in my mind.... if someone does not do the physical aspects of Aikido, Taiji, Karate, Jiujitsu, etc., correctly... i.e., they just do an external mimicry of movement, "blending", etc... how does that affect their "spiritual" development. That is, if someone has a problem with, as Tohei once put it, "Where is his Ki?"... how does that tie to the integral whole of the physical and spiritual development? Is the "spiritual" stuff real if the physical stuff is off? If we posit that the "correct" spiritual path for Aikido (in this example) can be there even if the physical stuff is wrong... what's the point in worrying about the physical at all? It gets sort of crazy, when you start pulling this discussion apart and looking at the ramifications. That's why I've never really gotten involved, even though in all the martial arts I've been involved in, there are people who like to dissect this physical/spiritual argument.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:32 PM   #150
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Trying to "relax" while still using normal strength modes is simply an exercise in frustration and it's about as useful as teaching a pig to sing.

Best.

Mike

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