Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-14-2006, 09:46 AM   #51
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Stereotypes are all about keeping people in their place. Mocking them is all about being firmly out of place -- and -- judging by the equally unintelligible dialects -- I thought West Countrymen WERE honorary Australians.
I'd be happy to be thought of as an honorary Australian. Australians are very well balanced people - they have a chip on both shoulders!

Uz Wescunry men rule, my ol luvver!


Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 09:50 AM   #52
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Levels 1 and 2 are needed, but the aikido starts at 3 and manifests itself in 4&5
I think we pretty much agree, Mark, although there will probably be some slight cross-perceptions until we meet, etc.

I should have noted a couple of other things, too, BTW:

(A.) In real life there are many times when the waza, as a matter of practicality, is going to be the more likely response (due to either the situation or to Nage's level of expertise). The use of the Ki forces is therefore the penultimate ideal, but common-sense and reality have to be taken into account.

(B.) Secondly, manipulating Uke's forces so that he throws himself is high-level use of the ki-forces/kokyu/whatever, but this is a good place to point out that the "ki throws" are essentially the same thing, when done correctly. I.e., instead of manipulating Uke's force/attack with jin which combines with his, you make a movement that results in his reactions making his forces take him into a throw. When viewed from that sort of perspective, the "ki throws" suddenly make more sense to a lot of people.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 09:55 AM   #53
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The Hara, the one-point, is the control center for the force coming from the ground, not the origin of the force. In order to move so that the power of the ground is constantly expressed throughout the movement, the one-point is needed as the control center. It is nothing more than a control center, a "nexus" of power... not the power itself.
Regards,
Mike
I don't see how that is any different than what Tohei Sensei is teaching.
Well, my comment was that it's apparently not clear that they're the same thing, Craig... and my comment was an opinion based on what I felt some of the people do. In a way, I'm simplifying my observation on this forum because it's difficult to express exactly what I felt was lacking... it's a more complex thing, although I tried to express the main part of it.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 10:12 AM   #54
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, my comment was that it's apparently not clear that they're the same thing, Craig... and my comment was an opinion based on what I felt some of the people do. In a way, I'm simplifying my observation on this forum because it's difficult to express exactly what I felt was lacking... it's a more complex thing, although I tried to express the main part of it.

Regards,
Mike

I guess I don't understand. What you expressed I don't see as being different. You expected some students perhaps to be more successful at it and since they were not you are thinking something differs ? or they simply did something qualitatively different from what you expected to feel and yet were successful at it ?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 10:22 AM   #55
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I guess I don't understand. What you expressed I don't see as being different. You expected some students perhaps to be more successful at it and since they were not you are thinking something differs ? or they simply did something qualitatively different from what you expected to feel and yet were successful at it ?
Heh.... what a semantics boondoggle we're in.

The level of success was not as high as it could have been, Craig, so I was suggesting a possible way to improve the mental approach/visualization. That's all I originally tried to say, leaving the rest alone. Qualitatively I noticed two major things... the stability was not as great as it *could* be, even though in some cases it worked OK (my thoughts were more in line with what I think beginners could use to arrive more quickly and more firmly at results... not a denigration of the current curriculum, etc.). Secondly, and more subtly, in moving correctly with Ki, a "feel" develops in the person moving because there is a subtle shift in the way the body works. Because I did not feel this aspect very much, I am positting that a slight shift in the visualization *may* help a bit. But that's an opinion that I'm offering in what's meant to be a helpful sense, nothing more.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 10:28 AM   #56
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think we pretty much agree, Mark, although there will probably be some slight cross-perceptions until we meet, etc.
of course,

Quote:
(A.) In real life there are many times when the waza, as a matter of practicality, is going to be the more likely response (due to either the situation or to Nage's level of expertise). The use of the Ki forces is therefore the penultimate ideal, but common-sense and reality have to be taken into account.
of course,

Quote:
(B.) Secondly, manipulating Uke's forces so that he throws himself is high-level use of the ki-forces/kokyu/whatever, but this is a good place to point out that the "ki throws" are essentially the same thing, when done correctly. I.e., instead of manipulating Uke's force/attack with jin which combines with his, you make a movement that results in his reactions making his forces take him into a throw. When viewed from that sort of perspective, the "ki throws" suddenly make more sense to a lot of people.
and yet again of course, although where does that leave the non believers/naysayers of ki/no touch throws?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 11:38 AM   #57
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, bear in mind that when we're speaking of fly-casting and how to teach it, we're essentially talking about one thing: getting the tied-fly on the end of the line to a certain point on the river so a fish will hopefully bite.

What happens in Aikido that so massively disrupts the training curricula is far more complex because the perceptions of what the goals are can be so different (I'll list some examples below). "Relax" can suddenly not only be vague, but it can apply to different areas of the perceived "correct Aikido technique", thus greatly compounding the discussion (making it moot, in most cases).

Take for instance the simple jin-descriptive example I gave in post #17 and let's use the position of Uke pushing on the right shoulder of a stationary Nage. Let's look at how "relaxation" applies in relation to some of what people would perceive for the goal of "correct Aikido". "Relax" changes quite a bit in meaning when you have different ideas of what correct Aikido really is:

... SNIP LOTS OF STUFF ...

Regards,

Mike Sigman
As I've said before, everything to get to level #5 is in Aikido. It's hidden in plain sight, but you'd have to be a genius to figure it out on your own.

And me, I think I'm at #1.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 01:34 PM   #58
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Thank you, Mike. Great post.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Let's look at how "relaxation" applies in relation to some of what people would perceive for the goal of "correct Aikido". "Relax" changes quite a bit in meaning when you have different ideas of what correct Aikido really is:

(1.) Standing there and relaxedly "grounding" the push would be something that the Ki Society or I or Akuzawa or Rob or Dan or Ushiro, etc., would approve of as a training response. Erick, if I read his posts aright, would disapprove because any resistance is "Not Aikido". Note that to be relaxed and "ground" the incoming push requires something beyond the normal vagueness of "relax". It requires knowing how to let the lower-body accept the load-bearing responsibility of the incoming force, etc.
You have me correctly. Basically, my objection flows from the premise that you do what you train to do. If you do not want to do it -- do not train to do it.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(2.) If Nage turns with the push, leading Uke off-balance and into a throw (say, Sayu Nage), this would fit into the idea of Aikido for many people, the rotational aspects would make Erick happy, not ...
Not entirely, especially if Nage's response is (quite often) to take a mere turn and make it a pull, ie. -- to shift the center against a lateral load in tension. Pulling is just as bad as pushing. Again do not train to do what you do not want to do.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(3.) If Nage turns with the push, as in example #2 above, but he maintains his "grounding" throughout the technique, he is on his way to Aikido which uses "Ki".
Alleluia. Amen.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If the active use of some ki-power/kokyu involves the shoulders, it is wrong, BTW... the use of kokyu forces is rare enough, but of the people who use some kokyu force, far too many of those add shoulder power to the usage, thus making the force not true kokyu. Here the idea of "relax" has to do with several complex issues, as is obvious.
Say on, brother!
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(4.) If Nage is trained well enough, he can do like O-Sensei did ... Nage accepts the incoming force, yielding quickly but very minutely before coming back up under the incoming force.
With the caveat as to the nature of of the forces applied. Yes. Force creates centered movement vice resistance.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(5.) We can take example #4 and instead of Nage "accepting" the push of Uke with the initial yielding, we imagine that Nage feels Uke's forces and directions on contact and, without moving, simply adds combining forces that result in Uke dropping himself to the ground as he applies force to Nage. This is the highest level.
Amen and Amen except as to the "without moving" part. To apply force requires some movement. Aikido applies force, but not resistant force. If the force is perpendicular to the input, it is not resistance. If there is an oppositional component of the meeting force, then it is partially resistant. By changing the quantity of perpendicular force impinging on the input, or shifting movement from one perpendicular plane of action to another -- one can guide the input anywhere.

The real difference of our approach to understanding this for training purposes comes back to the conception of the relationship between will and movement.

If it is approached from the standpoint of manipulating the input so as "not to move" there is a will to resist movement, and thus an impediment to the immediate communication of the state of the input, by partially reducing its signal with any oppositional component of force .

If the will is to move as moved, then there is no internal resistance negating or cancelling out a portion of the input attacking movement by opposing it. It is more sensitive because the whole signal is received rather than the resisted portion being cancelled.

The necessary movement simply becomes radically smaller and smaller as input sensitivity grows higher with training. Eventually it becomes "virtual movement." The distinction between this and "no movement" approached from the "not to move" paradigm is very important.

The virtual movement state is supercritical -- highyl unstable, which I think Mike recognizes. It cannot be maintained for any arbitrary period of time, which I think O Sensei's videos offered to illustrate some of these "not moving" issues, do demonstrate.

The quantity of movement achieved is equivalent from both approaches but the vector orientations at this virtual zero are precisely reversed. That matters -- even at a zero quantity of movement -- because it is not a stable zero. It is a very, very unstable zero that requires energy to achieve from either direction, and any loss of energy (or undue additional input) will cause you to depart.

The question is which way is "downhill." What orientation does the fall away from the supercritical state take? If you train from being moved to "virtual movement" your default (stability basin) on reducing energy in departing from the supercritical zero regime is back to "being moved." If you train from "not moving" toward "not moved" your stability basin in reducing energy from the supercritical virtual/no movement area is toward resisting the movement. The one causes sensitivity to remain, the other causes sensitivity to lessen.

Let me illustrate briefly what I am beginning to see as the form of "correct relaxation" from a mechanical viewpoint. There is one simple mechanical device that almost instantly communicates changed load conditions to the whole body of the structure, (i.e. -- by moving that structure, and creating and propagating internal rotations (and moments) in its articulating sub-elements.) It is the hanging chain. In pure compression it is the catenary arch.

An arch of tangent spheres has no cohesion or bending resistance at all to stop an immediate collapse under gravity (i.e. -- it is utterly relaxed) but it has one, and only one, stable shape under its own weight where it will stand erect -- where the the line of force runs exactly through the points of contact between the spheres. That is to say, where it is "correctly relaxed."

Viewed at different scales the curve may appear more flat or more pointed, but it is the always same precise shape -- always.
Kokyu is like finding the key that fits neatly into that very narrow lock at different scales of action.

All the necessary stability adjustments in the model are tangential rotations of the joints between the spheres. All components of force tangent to the spheres at the point of contact are thus perfectly perpendicular (juji) to the only stable line of force.

Actively maintain this shape in adapting to different scales of load, and you form the correct shape of kokyu expression for that load condition. It may appear relatively flatter (tegatana "hand blade") or more pointed in shape (hiji-riki or "elbow power"), depending on the load it is responding to.

Actively disrupt this shape across the joints in four places and the body is a mechanism that is unliftable by upward pushing or where the center of mass is unreachable by pulling or pushing.

This is overly simplistic as there are other slight variations in shape that depart from the catenary (at the supports for other defined loads), but the identical line of force principle holds throughout the center portions of all of these curves of whatever shape.

When uke grabs my wrist, or I meet his munetsuki on the fly, he and I form now a single chain. If I adopt the shape of the chain in that configuration -- everything that happens in that chain is communicated to every other part of the chain. If I achieve and maintain the proper shape between us, any internal joint rotations that I create now propagate to reach him, and his reach me. Those internal rotations, having an angular momentum, can be propagated to manipulate and create other and grosser rotations in other componets of the chain to concentrate (snapping the whip) or diminish perceived forces -- but that is another topic.

Lastly, the dynamic aspect of this is the question I asked David Knowlton elsewhere about the fall of one end of a folded chain.

With one end supported, the free tip falls from the same hook, with an aceleration greater than gravity. The accleration occurs becasue of the compounding of angular momentum with mass transfer (irimi), and decreasing inertial radius (as the free portion of chain shortens) (tenkan) causes the angular velocity at the end of the chain's fall to become mathematically infinite, or to be limited only by the harmonic length of the chain, or the speed of sound in air (snapping whip) whichever comes first.

The linked chain of wrist, arms, shoulder, spine and hips cannot achive that degree of compounded momentum, but they can achieve a very great deal of it by the same mechanism, and they can act in two perpendicular component planes and three dimensions, without ever opposing the input force at all.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 02:18 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Amen and Amen except as to the "without moving" part. To apply force requires some movement.
Do you understand how these directionally-variable forces are generated, Erick? That's the question I'd ask, since you seem to agree with the general premises.
Quote:
Aikido applies force, but not resistant force. If the force is perpendicular to the input, it is not resistance. If there is an oppositional component of the meeting force, then it is partially resistant. By changing the quantity of perpendicular force impinging on the input, or shifting movement from one perpendicular plane of action to another -- one can guide the input anywhere.
Well, when O-Sensei bounced people off his chest, thigh, hit them with his back, hit them with his sword, etc., he used resistive forces, Erick, or at least large enough cosine vector components (not orthogonal) that it meets your definition of resistive. So we disagree there.

The last part of your explanation doesn't fit as a description to what I know can be done with the mind and forces, but it's pointless to try and describe what is happening. Hopefully, though, the descriptions and discussion will provide us all with adquate roughage to ruminate over. Happiness is a full mind and empty bowels.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 02:41 PM   #60
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

My problem with the chain analogy is this: have you ever tried to push a chain? Don't work.

Catenary arch is lovely, describes the arch of my foot perhaps - but you are missing the point of balanced tension and compression - in a vertical pole tied down with three or four lines for example. That's a better description of what makes us stand up - look at this picture: http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~jagers...tensegrity.jpg

Dave

btw - having a great time with this.dk
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 02:47 PM   #61
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

have you seen this paper?

http://www.biotensegrity.com/index2....9&pop=1&page=0

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 02:51 PM   #62
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

thanks! brings tears to my eyes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 03:47 PM   #63
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Do you understand how these directionally-variable forces are generated, Erick? That's the question I'd ask, since you seem to agree with the general premises.
At the joints or as to uke generally? The shape is found by sensing the line of equal circumferential pressure in the joint -- that is, by elminating any hinging pressures in the joints under load. Once the input is felt -- it is modified by Incremental or continuous rotations in perpendicular plane orientations to the input vector plane.

In contact, this is like sending a wave down a rope or chain, and a wave is just translated rotation. And as I indicated above, there is one and only one way to push on a chain, and only assuming the chain wants to be pushed.

So, if in katatedori he is not pushing in the shape of a chain to begin with, he cannot push you by your arm (unless he takes the same shape). basically you progressively form the shape of the falling chain in reverse progating that shape (in compression and rotation) to him in kokyu. The wrist rotates, the elbow rotates the shoulder rotates --all in the same direction,. his shape gradually changes in the same incremental way but with different effects.

All this time he has been pushing, and you have been the "falling chain in reverse" with incremental rotations like the falling joint of the chain, he has basically pushed himself up and back, creating his own reaction (arch thrust) from his push. But his structure is progressively rotated out of alignment with the plane of his push. So he has formed his own mutally opposed offset forces, a couple, and starts to rotate further.

Instead of the fixed end of the chain hanging in tension at his shoulder as with the falling chain example, the fixed end is in compression (you form an inverted arch of your paired arms) and his shoulder pops up. As you continue the motion and rotations his shoulder cannot rise further and then his elbow buckles in the compression of his own push, and pops up, etc. etc. etc. Like a chain falling link by link off a table under its own weight -- but in reverse, his arm and torso rise and pop over from his own push.

To anticipate the objection -- I can maintain compression while moving with the impinging force -- that is not resistance.

You adapt your shape and continue the rotations of your joints to mimic the falling chain (upwards), and he rotates more, etc. etc. etc. skewing himself in three dimensions. At some point it all reverses at the top and he gets cut down in ikkyo by the reverse motion uncoiling all the above back at him.

So your cosine vector thought is not too far off the waves of rotations he is receiving, but the control methodology you advocate at the begining tends to the resistant mode, which is the problem I have with it.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, when O-Sensei bounced people off his chest, thigh, hit them with his back, hit them with his sword, etc., he used resistive forces
O Sensei said "no resistance", not "no violence." Aikido by all means uses force ("vi"olence -- Latin: "vi et armis"= "with force and arms"), but not resistive force. The chest and thigh pushes are continuous reversals and offsets under guidance, not direct countering pushes. (think tight elliptical orbits or to continue the imagery -- a chain hung just past its midpoint over a rod and then falling off, but again -- in compression, not tension)

But seriously, I doubt they were able to resist his atemi too much ...

One cannot strike or grab without rotating a limb in at least one of three planes-- it is hardly a reach that blending with and manipulating them necessarily involves rotations also.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The last part of your explanation doesn't fit as a description to what I know can be done with the mind and forces, but it's pointless to try and describe what is happening.
Have you never felt that uncoiling whip in the ikkyo omote ?? The one you have to leave off of at that last moment to avoid uke's rotator cuff popping loose as his head slaps and bounces off the ground while his feet are leaving it? Particularly when you stopped trying so hard to do just that?

I've felt it and analogized it that way for years, but it took some fairly serious pondering to come to an understanding that indeed the same mechanics are operating and do operate in both the tension and compression load regimes.

Everything I have said operates equally in the classic tension chain regime, and there are many techniques that use that. The probem for training is that techniques using these principles in tension tend to awaken the hind-brain monkey pulling instinct, which destroys the classic chain shape by popping it into a tight line for which rotations (in torsion) while very possibole and powerful, are far more difficult to manipulate and to see directly.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 03:53 PM   #64
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Well, I'd be interested in seeing you implement that, Erick. It's certainly not what I do and what I know of in Asian martial arts. Maybe O-Sensei was misleading us with that "Ki of Heaven" and "Ki of Earth" stuff.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 04:00 PM   #65
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Why not tell them where they're tense instead of using an ambibuous statement? If they ask "How?" that's a perfect opportunity to add more clairty to what's going on. If they ask if they were doing it incorrectly, tell them, "Yup, you were..." We're constantly giving each other feedback like, you're activating your biceps, you're chest is too tense, you need to relax your lower back muscles... I realize too that the way we train isn't completely in line with the Ki Society, since we pretty much reject the idea that you must relax the entire body, so this may not apply to your training paradigm.
I think that having a student ask me 'How?' is of course perfectly reasonable, however, a positive state of mind is vital to being able to relax confidently. Hence I would not start by saying 'relax correctly' since it implies that what the student is normally doing is incorrect, this can affect their confidence and therefore their ability to perform the exercise. A small matter but I think perhaps you'd be surprised at how much difference it can make.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 04:04 PM   #66
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
My problem with the chain analogy is this: have you ever tried to push a chain? Don't work.
Yes you can. See Coulomb's memoir on statics, and the picture I gave you. in an earlier post It works in only one shape, the chain has to be relatively rigid in compression (like the spheres or my limbs) but need not have any cohesion or bending resistance at any joint ( like my relaxed limbs). And the chain has to want to be pushed, i.e -- be adaptive, or "smart" to maintain that super critical shape. Nobody ever said kokyu just "happens."

The shape is super-critically stable and therefore it requires continual adaptive adjustment to maintain it. That is why kokyu as martial expression is so difficult for an enemy to counter, it is so variable and adaptively unstable that he can never find his line.

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Catenary arch is lovely, describes the arch of my foot perhaps - but you are missing the point of balanced tension and compression - in a vertical pole tied down with three or four lines for example. That's a better description of what makes us stand up - look at this picture: http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~jagers...tensegrity.jpg
Nah -- try a top-heavy wobbly pole with a double eccentirc and torsional elastic joint stuck in the middle to alter the eccentircity of the toppling moment. Balancing THAT nifty bent broom stick is what keeps us upright.

Spine = tensegrity. Amen, brother.

But the mechanics of kokyu are not explained by that fasincating model of static structure. The "smart" chain does. Tensegrity does not explain either the tegatana shape as a critical element of kokyu or its flip side of Hiji-riki. The "smart" chain does.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 04:10 PM   #67
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I'd be interested in seeing you implement that, Erick. It's certainly not what I do and what I know of in Asian martial arts.
I implement it every night I am in the Dojo and will again tonight. I will try to make these things a bit more organized, however, in written form.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Maybe O-Sensei was misleading us with that "Ki of Heaven" and "Ki of Earth" stuff.
He just was not mechanically-minded. Biomechanically, an intuitive genius, but not capable or interested in Western analytical mechanics. He had great respect for it and advocated scientific approaches to his budo. He said so in Budo Renshu. He simply was not up to doing it himself.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 06:19 PM   #68
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I implement it every night I am in the Dojo and will again tonight. I will try to make these things a bit more organized, however, in written form.

He just was not mechanically-minded. Biomechanically, an intuitive genius, but not capable or interested in Western analytical mechanics. He had great respect for it and advocated scientific approaches to his budo. He said so in Budo Renshu. He simply was not up to doing it himself.
Well, I think the major error you're making is that you think the ki things are purely aspects of normal body-mechanics. I.e., there is this conceit that now in modern times we've explained everything and nothing new can come along. I believe the U.S. Patent Office once closed in the early 1900's because of that same type of conceit... everything under the sun that could be invented had been invented, so they thought.

The real problem is that there is an element of fascial structures involved in what the ki things do. It's not just the bone and muscle mechanics involved in the equation of Ki... there are some intereactions between the fascial structures, the autonomic functions, and so forth. In other words, an analysis of body mechanics in the basic kinesiology sense, isn't really accurate. So Ueshiba couldn't do such a modern analysis and even if he could, it wouldn't be accurate.

If there are factors in the equation that you don't understand, I'd suggest that your understanding of jin and kokyu is probably off.

Maybe if you attempted a simpler analysis to make your point, as a starter, and explained to some of the people who attended Ushiro Sensei's workshop what it was that they felt that was so odd in some of Ushiro's pushes, pokes, and other techniques? It would be a good start. As it is, your analysis makes no differentiation between normal body mechanics and the mechanics of "ki".

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 06:42 PM   #69
charyuop
Dojo: Ponca Aikikai
Location: Ponca City, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 130
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

I am new in the Aikido world, so I can just tell you what I can see in my personal "little" experience. I have done Tai Chi for some time, but not as martial art, where like in Aikido you have to be relaxed. I thought I had reached relaxation pretty well till I started Aikido. Seeing someone in fron of you who is actually trying to punch you (even tho you know he/she would stop if you miss the technique) creates a natural tension which is not easy to defeat.
Anyway I have noticed that the longer I practice a technique and the more I get confident with it and am aware of how effective it is, the more I can wait for the attack in a relaxed way and counter attack in a relaxed way. Of course reaching a complete relaxation will take a long time, it is not something you learn in a couple of days. But confidence in your knowledge helps alot. But watch out, coz too much confidence is not good either, it will naturally lower your attention to what is going on around you.

As per the use of Ki/Chi. I have read a book from a kung fu/Tai Chi Master (Dr.Yang) once. In his book he has an interesting theory in which he explains how the so called soft Martial Arts work their way through a long training to reach a harder style of fight, while the so called hard martial arts on the opposite work their way through long training to a more soft style of fight. According this theory there is a point in which all the Arts to be complete meet, losing the distinction of soft and hard.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 07:20 PM   #70
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
One thing I hate is the term 'relaxation' as it is not quite descriptive enough.
In Seidokan ,which has Ki Society roots, we use "controlled relaxation"--relaxing what doesn't need to be used and using what does.

I once accidently coined a term. I was trying to say "relaxed action" but it came out "relaxtion"... it has since stuck

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 07:58 PM   #71
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi folks,

Can I please request that people try to make an explicit connection in their posts to the original intent of the thread?

In this case, the original questions posed were:

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
The question for the forum at large is how do you or your system teach/train an individual to become relaxed? Is there a specific method or is it simply a hope that over time the student will relax? What drills or exercises are explicitly used for the purpose of teaching relaxation and it's powers?
Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 09:42 PM   #72
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I think the major error you're making is that you think the ki things are purely aspects of normal body-mechanics.
No one has demonstrated that they are not. Unique uses of normal body mechanics in a relaxed mode, but not abnormal body mechanics.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The real problem is that there is an element of fascial structures involved in what the ki things do. It's not just the bone and muscle mechanics involved in the equation of Ki... there are some intereactions between the fascial structures, the autonomic functions, and so forth.
Your theory is outrunnning your facts. If it has a bearing on the mechanics of relaxed but dynamically active structures, that needs some mechanical description. It is not enough to observe that bones and tendons have some affinity to tensegrity structures when they also have rotary and torsional joints. A mechanical description must capture and explain those degrees of freedom in its operaiton.

You have an impression that makes sense for your training imagery, which is fine. Whatever works. I am not addressing the pysycho-somatic efficiency. There is much to do there that I cannot address.

I assume that the mechanism of relaxed adpatation is dynamic, non-linear and actively controlled. I assume it is relaxed and yet still capable of bearing loads.

I do not assume that the system is static or linear. I am working on the mechanical model that the adaptive system is actually working on to adapt. An objective mechanical description may enable other means of impoving training or explaining technique.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Maybe if you attempted a simpler analysis to make your point, as a starter,
Good one. Ki -- simple analysis. Hah. You have one of those ?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... and explained to some of the people who attended Ushiro Sensei's workshop what it was that they felt that was so odd in some of Ushiro's pushes, pokes, and other techniques? It would be a good start.
It is forever beyond me to explain to someone else what THEY felt. I can make a stab an objective model that explains all the forces and motions that are evident, if someone will kindly describe in detail the forces and motions that they experienced.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As it is, your analysis makes no differentiation between normal body mechanics and the mechanics of "ki".
If someone would kindly provide the latter I will be happy to address differences, if any come to light. It is my working assumption that there are not any, just a very critical regime of ordinary mechanics, and an art of dynamic adaptive control.

In other words, I think the power of your methods lies, not in your assumed mechnics, but in the psycho-somatic process you use, to which any connection to actual mechanics may be completely irrelevant, as it is for singing coaches, the imagery is all you need for qualitative adjustments. I don't agree with the ends you put it to in terms of aikido, but I have no basis to contest its effectiveness in its own terms otherwise.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-14-2006 at 09:49 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 01:33 AM   #73
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

are you guys all too chicken to just SAY what it is?
I know you've all felt it, but maybe words fail you, and you enjoy floundering about the semantic morass with the likes of Eric Mead.

Total relaxation in Aikido equals:

let go. Let go of trying to be a separate entity, apart from the world/universe. Let go of your ego, your ego thoughts, tension created by trying to defend or protect your image or status or appearance as an aikidoka or martial artist.

let go mentally, relax, let go physically, relax, and become one with (or realize the oneness already there) the universe. You are the universe and it is you, moving, breathing, relaxed, powerful, in contention with nothing or no one. At peace in unified movement.

let go of everything, so you can be one with everything and everything can be one with you.

quote from Aikido Journal:
AJ: What was the most important thing you learned from Morihei Ueshiba?
Toihei Sensei: The way people most talk about ki these days tends toward the occultish, but I will say that I have never done anything even remotely involving the occult. Much of what Ueshiba Sensei talked about, on the other hand, did sound like the occult.

In any case, I began studying aikido because I saw that Ueshiba Sensei had truly mastered the art of relaxing. It was because he was relaxed, in fact, that he could generate so much power. I became his student with the intention of learning that from him.
__________________________________

and there you have it. Straight from the mouth of the highest ranked Aikido student in the history of the art, referring to its founder. How about instead of pontificating on how this 10th Dan must have been 'wrong' and you can't really 'totally relax', just go out and investigate for yourselves and try it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 06:38 AM   #74
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Thanks Wayne. Good advice.

Personally, all this ties together for me - the tensegrity, etc., because for years when I relaxed past a certain point I started screaming. Currently, I can relax past that point and I only get dizzy. I was very painfully injured 25 years ago, and I just don't have a normal nervous system. So, my method of training is to do 'standing like a tree' chi kung. I do physical therapy several times a year via a rolfer and a chiropractor with neurophysical training, and I use tensegrity merely as a model for understanding how 'open space' in my body, not maintaining a death grip around an old injury, is my path to healing and relaxation.

Peace

david
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 07:05 AM   #75
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I think the major error you're making is that you think the ki things are purely aspects of normal body-mechanics.
No one has demonstrated that they are not.
Erick, what you mean is that no one has demonstrated to YOU that these are not normal body mechanics. However, if that's all they were, the Asians wouldn't have made such a fuss about them for thousands of years, Ueshiba wouldn't have treated them like secrets that one was supposed to "figure out for yourself", I wouldn't have spent years learning how to train these things with breathing, standing postures, practice, etc. I did an in-service (I wrote about this before) for the Physical Therapy staff at the UC Med School... *they* thought the mechanics were abnormal. I know a large number of experienced martial artists who can do so level of these things... after my years of experience and knowing all the people I know, I cannot imagine getting into a conversation about the mechanics and positing that it's unknown whether unusual body mechanics are involved.

So it's not a matter of "no one has demonstrated they are not (normal body mechanics)" .... why not just say that you yourself are unaware of any unusual body mechanics? That happens to be a point I have been making repeatedly to you for some time. You don't know this stuff.

If your analysis misses the point, then the comments about relaxation in relation to your analysis are negligible. However, to be clear, I think that any conversation about this stuff has to reach out and touch a number of issues.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wayne and Mike's Thread Gwion Open Discussions 8 12-23-2006 02:30 PM
Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06 Mike Sigman General 34 12-19-2006 08:21 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:37 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate