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Old 12-29-2006, 08:29 AM   #426
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
What do you suppose that level of force would like if it were applied to students who were actually trained to have structure both in attack and defense? How would their bodies both generate force to begin with? And then, how would their properly trained bodies respond?

Picture Ueshiba trying to do that to the Shioda that appeared in his later videos?
What would trained structure of the uke bring into the mix?
Who is being trained .....exactly.. to do what?
I understand your point, Dan, and you're not wrong... but then again you're erring (IMO) on the side of negativity. The stuff Ueshiba does could certainly be looked at a training-level efforts at some good principles that can certainly be applied in a martial situation. I use what he did as part of many of my moves. Sure, I generate more power in actual application, but when I'm working with an Uke I use about what O-Sensei did because I don't have the need to damage Uke in order to prove some point about "martial" application. Get off O-Sensei's back.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:29 AM   #427
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Well I've had folks here all week....every day.
From all over.

There is a small path, hidden in the woods, away from that blazing video taped, who's who of martial "arts" super highway.
With people training -to have power and connection. I think we're having fun.....and actually learning to to remain standing, be healthy and stop attackers dead in their tracks.
Let them martial "artists"...... go to the chiropractors.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:39 AM   #428
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi Mike

Not my point. I shoud have been more clear, sorry.
Whether using less force or maximum, what do you teach your fellow practicioners to do as a response? I would never teach that level of ukemi...broken structure in attack, lost structure in response. In short the ukes are a perfect model of poor teaching.
Like waiting on the sidelines in sandlot baseball hoping to be picked to play with the good guys.

I teach folks their own body sense and connectivity; day one, act one, scene one. How to build power and receive mine. Constantly buildng their bodies and then a level of response that is pro-active to applied force to nuetralize it -in them.
Think of it like push hands where you can give ground and technically lose but remain standing and intact....just..over there.
For those inclined it can get way more intense, but that detracts from my central point here.
It is rare to non-existant to "need" to fall down like that as a response to force. And slowly building them to be powerful and not willing dupes is a first order of business.
It's a koryu model. Actually being witnessed here in Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, and Shioda. But many-even most don't get what they're seeing.
Its what Ellis and I were jibber jabbering about.
Just a view.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2006 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:40 AM   #429
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Doesn't fit so let's not discuss it? Ground reaction is a different physical principle (mass inertia) from gravity acceleration (attraction between two masses). Thus, you are founding your model on TWO fundamental physical principles. Actually since you are interposing supposed spring tension (strain energy) in the legs it is actually THREE principles.
Pretty good, Erick. Although your words are slightly skewed, you just named the principles of the Ki of Earth, the Ki of Heaven, and Man on a bridge in the middle. Beginning to get the picture? And guess what.... if you go back and look at your cosmology, you'll see that the number of factors arithmetically increases in complexity. See? Your complaints were foreseen before Christ was born.

Regardless, my analysis, if you look at my previous posts, had to do with the simpler example of only ground-based force because it's easier for everyone on a public forum to understand. And like I said. Gravity-based examples are a different, though pretty similar case. And if you go back and look at numerous posts of mine, I mention the gravity side of the dichotomy, so your quip about "if it doesn't fit", etc., is wrong.... although now I'm beginning to think that you're becoming intellectually dishonest in your fever to prove me wrong. Have you thought about joining forces with Jusin? He's very smart.... look at his webpage that boasts of his accomplishments.
Quote:
Angular momentum is ONE principle.
So is nuclear fission, but it's not something we need to take into consideration in a simple analysis. What next? Calabi-Yau manifolds to allow for the extra dimensions we need to do a *real* analysis?
Quote:
The Taiji tomoe, which you did not address is one whole with two eccentric centers enfolding one another in rotation. It is a marvelous cross-sectional depiction of the hips in rotation -- isn't it?
Except that has nothing to do with Taiji returning to Wuji, does it?

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:17 AM   #430
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
in the dojo this has been a tremendous liability. In fact, my teacher used to scream at me "stop thinking, stop analyzing
This is not the dojo and your teacher is perfectly correct. Mike keeps trying to make it seem like I teach people to DO Aikido in this way, which is ridiculous. The dojo is not a a physics class. But you know, working out a couple of points of the physics might just help with the training that we do in the dojo. I use analytical thking to help me criticaly identify and to correct their failures, and sometimes to explain their failure in that way, depending on the student.

I am not doing this out of some unilateral vision of what Aikido ought to be or to add in its continued development in the world. O Sensei in Budo Renshu said:
Quote:
O Sensei wrote:
Today, it is important to train thinking (all this) in terms of scientific warfare.
He also wrote in that same book that students should always be "keeping in mind the principle where...the spirit of Yagyu Jubei [and others] meet." Hiroshi Tada Shihan (9th dan) wrote in an IAF conference address in 2004, and quoted Yagyu Jubei saying "... the root of the art of warfare lies in the understanding of the reason of the mind and its underlying principle. Therefore, the root of the art of warfare is based on the training of mentality..."
Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
Still though, I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling Erick's superanalytical dissertations with what I "feel" in the dojo. When I read them I can't help but recall the phrase "the analysis of paralysis".
I expect so. Thay are not intended to help you decide what to feel or what to do before you perform the technique or exercise. Don't use them to understand what you should feel before you feel it. Use them to critically dissect what you felt when you failed.

This is the place for analytical exercise, to find ways to improve training and understanding in the dojo, not to find some analytical analogue to show how to DO Aikido. This is most definitely NOT the place to do what the dojo is for. It is for what we are doing -- sharing, arguing analyzing, looking for ideas for improvement of changes of perspective on the training that we do.

Analysis (and all scientific endeavor) is fundamentally the wisdom of failure. There is plenty of failure to dissect in the dojo. Your technique fails, or is inefficient or adversely affects your balance or you opponent reverses you unintentionally. But you only analyze it after the movement fails. Never before.

Success could just be dumb luck, and you can't dissect good fortune to see how it ticks. To dissect a perfectly good working watch would be a sin. You wait until it is broken -- then you take it apart and see why it no longer works right. The failure of a feasible task ALWAYS has a cause.

Ki and kokyu concepts are holisitc, and therefore not amenable to analysis. The mechanics of kokyu are initally counterintutive (kind of like rotational dynamics), and later -- utterly natural and unthinking, which is its distinct strategic advantage. Their mechanical aspects are amenable to analysis, however, and their is no reason why they should not be subjected to it, understanding all along that analysis is not the be-all end-all either. Science is always a mode of partial turths.

Analysis is desgined to refocus our attention on the memory of our feeling to the moment of failure in our unthinking movement.. The we can define its cause, and work to feel the cause of failure better and thus to eliminate it from our training. That's what kihon is for.

In forums like this we can work out schemes of analysis, or other un-scientific (but perfectly valid), modes of criticism to correct failure.

Aesthetics is a powerful training tool, and utterly unscientific. Nevertheless, and almost invariably, UGLY technique is also BAD technique. I don't have an particularly aesthetic mind, but many do. I recognize the equal corrective power and relevance of that approach, however. There are many others besides , and they are all valuable in their own ways.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:19 AM   #431
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Incidentally, just to sum up what's going on for those who are confused:

The idea of "relaxation" has to do with building up ki/kokyu skills and how best to do that in a "relaxed" manner. The side discussion is mainly about Erick's contention that the basic skill in Aikido centers around rotational movement and its priniciples. The other side of the discussion is sort of like "OK, there are a lot of rotational things in the *waza* of Aikido, but that's not the principal core strength that is the basis for all those waza. Erick maintains the principal movement study is indeed rotational movement and angular momentum, a theory, insofar as I know, that is unique in Asian martial arts.

At present we're looking at a couple of short, what I would call "bounce jin" examples of people simply pushing on Ueshiba Sensei and getting bounced back. It's a simple example of what is widely known in Asian martial arts as the "swallow and spit" maneuver using jin/support from the ground as the core strength.

The supporting force Ueshiba uses for the "swallow-spit" maneuver (something several people on the forum had previously posited is only a phenomenon in Chinese martial arts!!!) is the kokyu/ki/jin that is the same force that is used in a Ki-Society "Ki Test" and which is developed with great relaxation.

A secondary example in one of the video clips showed Ueshiba Sensei responding to a push by leaning down .... the force he uses in that example (partially... there's also a cute additive trick that's hard to see) is the same force that the Ki-Society develops in the "unliftable body" or in kokyu throws like sayunage, etc. Some throws, BTW, use a combination of both jins. That would be the substance of conversations in the future, though.

FWIW

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 12-29-2006 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:24 AM   #432
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Clearly the MMA types involved with aikido means that aikidoka have to start selling supplements, make their gis look like NASCARs with ads all over them, and maybe get cute "tough" nicknames, for example Terry "The Crazy Butcher" Dobson, John "I'll Remove Your Liver with a Rusty Spoon" Stevens, and Moriteru "I'll Break You, Punk!" Ueshiba.
lol
Just as there are lots of "kuhrotty" schools with signs (next to the monthly rate plans) saying "We 'R' A Blackbelt School," there are lots of folks claiming to practice "MMA," when in fact they are doing a hodgepodge of bits they've gleaned from spending 6 months at a kuhrotty school, a year at a TKD school, a year at a silat school, a few months of arnis/kali, a seminar in "Jeet kune do" and... you get the picture. They skim a shallow set of skills off the top, mostly individual techniques and "tricks," but never learn the sound principles beneath them.

Because they are the ones that mainstream and advertise ("Learn Eight Martial Arts In One! Only $89.95 a month!), it's easy to understand why MMA would get a bad rap.

I remember a lot of those schools and "teachers" back in the late '70s and '80s, many of which were encouraged by the popularity of Hong Kong kungful movies back then. Bruce Lee really got a lot of people started, both on the legit and the "kuhrotty" paths.

But there are individuals who really are deep students of the arts, who can't remain in an institutional box learning just one "way." They are intelligent and know that they must stay in a system long enough to understand what makes it work, before venturing to combine it with anything else. It doesn't happen overnight, but in the course of years or decades. Such people can claim to practice MMA legitimately. It's not a "leftover stew" of bits and pieces, but big chunks of sound knowledge from different sources, all of which complement each other and can be integrated. They don't try to make a Frankenstein monster out of discordant parts, but, rather, tie together underlying physical and mental principles that are pervasive throughout the arts and human bio-mechanical world.

They definitely aren't mainstream, so again, the pervasive picture of MMA will be the Jim-Bob School of 10 Deadly Arts-in-One.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:31 AM   #433
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Pretty good, Erick. Although your words are slightly skewed, you just named the principles of the Ki of Earth, the Ki of Heaven, and Man on a bridge in the middle. Beginning to get the picture? And guess what.... if you go back and look at your cosmology, you'll see that the number of factors arithmetically increases in complexity. See? Your complaints were foreseen before Christ was born.
"The WAY begets the ONE, the One begets TWO, Two begets THREE and Three begets the Ten Thousand things."

So, riddle me this, O Student of Taoist Master Occam: Which is closer to the Nameless Way -- ONE or THREE ?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Regardless, my analysis, if you look at my previous posts, had to do with the simpler example of only ground-based force because it's easier for everyone on a public forum to understand.
A angular momentum model (rotation/inertial radius) tracks directly with the intimate connections between irimi/tenkan.

I must be missing YOUR exposition of tenkan in the ground springs and the deadfalls.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:46 AM   #434
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
"The WAY begets the ONE, the One begets TWO, Two begets THREE and Three begets the Ten Thousand things."

So, riddle me this, O Student of Taoist Master Occam: Which is closer to the Nameless Way -- ONE or THREE ?
Well, that's actually a good question and cuts right into the problem of mixing these western and Asian perspectives, as you've just done, and then demanding an answer, as you've just done, without noting that a discussion of the difference in terms is important.

As an example, when Tohei pushes someone by storing and releasing along the ground-based kokyu/jin path, he is using the power of the earth and he calls it "ki". When Tohei is weighting someone down, like in sayunage or similar downward throws, he is using gravity (and a couple of mechanical additives, perhaps)... but he calls it "ki". If he knows how to do really good stores and releases, he uses the fascial areas of the body to do it and he would also call that "ki". In the Western-science paradigm, we would split those things up and have 3 different force sources. In the Asian paradigm, they would only have one. See the problem from your mixing the 2 paradigms and then demanding an answer in the Asian one?
Quote:
A angular momentum model (rotation/inertial radius) tracks directly with the intimate connections between irimi/tenkan.
You're just bound and determined to fit your theory in, Erick. The reason you're so insistent on the rotational movement discussion is because most of your understanding of Aikido has to do with avoid, turn, blend and so you've developed this theory of angular momentum. It's a secondary-level theory that misses the primary "jewel" that Ueshiba spoke about. Frankly, I'm happy if you stay on that track... I consider it the workings of Karma.
Quote:
I must be missing YOUR exposition of tenkan in the ground springs and the deadfalls.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're caught up in the theory of the waza and most of the rest of us are talking about the basic "Ki" in the same way that Tohei pointed out that it was the core of Aikido. Sure there is tenkan and sure there are lots of techniques, etc., that contain angular momentum which affects the throw.... but a discussion of that is very secondary to the core forces that we've been talking about. Since you don't understand the core forces, you don't realize how absurd the angular-momentum position actually is..... so you incessantly defend it while my eyeballs get tired from rolling so much.

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:22 AM   #435
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Incidentally, just to sum up what's going on for those who are confused:
The idea of "relaxation" has to do with building up ki/kokyu skills and how best to do that in a "relaxed" manner. The side discussion is mainly about Erick's contention that the basic skill in Aikido centers around rotational movement and its priniciples. The other side of the discussion is sort of like "OK, there are a lot of rotational things in the *waza* of Aikido, but that's not the principal core strength that is the basis for all those waza.
Actually, a fair summation, Mike. Now, can we have the explanation for the admitted "rotational things" in the waza that fits the "core strength" model" from your perspective?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Erick maintains the principal movement study is indeed rotational movement and angular momentum, a theory, insofar as I know, that is unique in Asian martial arts.
Its uniqeness in the self-understanding of Asian martial arts in traditional terms is beside the point. It is more accurate to say that Aikido has not really yet tried to come at the problem from a systemic Western analytical perspective, despite the Founder's advice in this regard as early as 1933. I only say this becasue I have never seen any, and I have beeen looking for about ten years now. I won't presume to speak for "Asian Martial Arts."
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's a simple example of what is widely known in Asian martial arts as the "swallow and spit" maneuver using jin/support from the ground as the core strength.
Well -- I gave a simple example of the body motion for people to feel the mechanical operation of what O Sensei did to his uke in the two-handed shoulder grab video above.

Could you please do the same for the "swallow and spit" maneuver, since it is rather a novel description for Aikido, so everybody else can try it at home and see if it fits their actual feelings of things in an Aikido dojo?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
A secondary example in one of the video clips showed Ueshiba Sensei responding to a push by leaning down... the same force that the Ki-Society develops in the "unliftable body" or in kokyu throws like sayunage, etc.
"Unliftable body" can be explained by the formation of hinges (i.e. --rotation potential) at four joints on the body. Get three ping pong balls. Take a hula hoop and cut it in half. Prop both vertically against a smooth wall (just so that they don't fall laterally) and a floor that wil not allow the support to slide out. They bear their own weight.

Cut one at the top and put a ping pong ball at the joint. It now has three hinges, one at each support and one in the center. It will still bear its own weight. Take the other one and make two cuts forming three equal pieces, and insert a ping-pong ball at each joint. It will collapse under its own weight because with four hinges capable of rotating there is virtually no effective moment (other than incidental friction) to hold up the wieght of the middle piece, and the whole thing buckles at the joints.

Counting now from the point of attemtping to lift the body at the forearms you have two elbows, two shoulders, and two scapular joints, or six potential hinges. So unliftable body merely allows those six joints to rotate freely in response to the lift, and it will be impossible. If you isolate any two of them with joint tension the lifters can isolate another pair with leverage and then lift you.

Tohei's teaching that you must relax completely is shown by a straightforward "kitchen physics" model to be absolutely correct mechanically for the unliftable body (which I would have assumed it was, anyway). MIke's approach to this in mechanical terms by "leaning down" is far less obvious.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:46 AM   #436
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
.. when Tohei pushes someone by storing and releasing along the ground-based kokyu/jin path, he is using the power of the earth and he calls it "ki". When Tohei is weighting someone down, like in sayunage or similar downward throws, he is using gravity (and a couple of mechanical additives, perhaps)... but he calls it "ki".
Not even Tohei can manipulate gravity or the inertia of mass. He CAN manipulate the support structure of a body in a gravity field, but that requires shifitng the center of mass from its base of support , or vice versa. He can manipulate and shift moments of inertia by making the proper connections (musubi) to do that -- but that requires a rotational analysis.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The reason you're so insistent on the rotational movement discussion is because most of your understanding of Aikido has to do with avoid, turn, blend and so you've developed this theory of angular momentum.
You really do indulge speculation, don't you? Nope, sorry, all wrong. Irimi, irimi, irimi and if doubt, irimi. (I over-emphasize for effect, but not very much). It's his attack and he can have it, but it is typically MY line, and my center and he has to find his own, thank you very much. Suriage, kiri-otoshi and suri-otoshi are my preferred images of underlying principles for effective Aikido waza. Big conneciton and inertial moment manipulation -- all three of those.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
discussion of that is very secondary to the core forces that we've been talking about.
If you get around to a mechanical model of your vision of "core forces" let me know. If you don't want to -- then your discussion and mine are really not even addressing one another, at all.

Envision the swallow/spit thing, or kundalini serpents, or dantien lotuses blossoming, or whatever, if it works for your training. The saliva bit sounds real messy though..

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:47 AM   #437
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Actually, a fair summation, Mike. Now, can we have the explanation for the admitted "rotational things" in the waza that fits the "core strength" model" from your perspective?
What? Your question is not clear. I'm saying that your analysis is of *some* "turning things with no resistance" (except your theory falls on its face in some of Shioda and Ueshiba's angles of attack in response to an incoming force) is an analysis of the waza.... i.e., an analysis of the tactics and strategies of Aikido, not the core forces. The discussion, which you keep missing (now, it's pretty clear you're doing it on purpose rather than admit any error) is of the basic forces of movement, the "ki", which are part of the *conditioning* and *basic forces*, not the waza. You're talking waza, we're talking basic forces.

I saw your point when you first proposed it. I could probably make your argument for your and use force-couples and angular momentum, pretty much as you're trying to do. The reason I won't bother to even go there is that I can do these things and I know that approach is wrong.... and I also know that anyone who can really do these things would know I didn't know anything if I proposed such a theory as yours.

You personally can't do these things, so you don't really understand that your analysis is simply a wasted exercise in "well, it *could* work if you juggle this and juggle that."
Quote:
Its uniqeness in the self-understanding of Asian martial arts in traditional terms is beside the point. It is more accurate to say that Aikido has not really yet tried to come at the problem from a systemic Western analytical perspective, despite the Founder's advice in this regard as early as 1933.
You need to understand that just because someone does a systematic analysis using western paradigms, it doesn't mean that their analysis is right. Happens all the time in quiz answers in college.... lengthy analysis and solution, but it turns out to be wrong.
Quote:
Could you please do the same for the "swallow and spit" maneuver, since it is rather a novel description for Aikido, so everybody else can try it at home and see if it fits their actual feelings of things in an Aikido dojo?
How do I know that what a lot of people "feel" in a dojo that I've never seen (and allowing for the "given" that most people can't do these things) is going to match what I describe? In fact, this stuff needs to be shown before someone really understands. If I say I hit someone with my shoulder using these forces, everyone imagines a shoulder-hit that they know of... not the shoulder hit that I would do. So it needs to be shown.
Quote:
"Unliftable body" can be explained by the formation of hinges (i.e. --rotation potential) at four joints on the body.
I don't want to go into the downward forces, as I've already said. You're missing that one, too. You need to go see someone who can do these things.... they're both simpler, yet more sophisticated than you're envisioning.

I gave you a very good and simple explanation for the bouncing Uke off of him that Ueshiba did. That's how simple these analyses should stay, IMO. If you knew more, we could get more complex, but that simple explanation I did is, IMO, the best level for these types of discussion on a public forum.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:52 AM   #438
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Not even Tohei can manipulate gravity or the inertia of mass. He CAN manipulate the support structure of a body in a gravity field, but that requires shifitng the center of mass from its base of support , or vice versa. He can manipulate and shift moments of inertia by making the proper connections (musubi) to do that -- but that requires a rotational analysis.
Actually, I don't know what Tohei is capable of personally, in all regards, but I know that you simply don't understand this topic and you're making wild guesses and assertions on this topic that only show you don't understand the full potentials. This is both simple and yet *very* sophisticated in its possibilities and actualities.
Quote:
You really do indulge speculation, don't you? Nope, sorry, all wrong. Irimi, irimi, irimi and if doubt, irimi. (I over-emphasize for effect, but not very much). It's his attack and he can have it, but it is typically MY line, and my center and he has to find his own, thank you very much. Suriage, kiri-otoshi and suri-otoshi are my preferred images of underlying principles for effective Aikido waza. Big conneciton and inertial moment manipulation -- all three of those.
If you get around to a mechanical model of your vision of "core forces" let me know. If you don't want to -- then your discussion and mine are really not even addressing one another, at all.

Envision the swallow/spit thing, or kundalini serpents, or dantien lotuses blossoming, or whatever, if it works for your training. The saliva bit sounds real messy though..
Whatever. I'm very comfortable because what I know I've seen played out time and time again by many different Chinese and Japanese experts. I'm also very comfortable with speculating that the thought will cross your mind that you wish you could delete part of Jun's archives.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:05 AM   #439
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Erick.... do you really think that O-Sensei, Tohei, and many others were stressing "RELAX" so that rotational movement would be better? Why not just strengthen the ligaments and tendons around the joints? Once again we get back to the inescapable conclusion that none of those guys really understood proper Aikido, I know, but......


Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:21 AM   #440
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
... I know that you simply don't understand ... ... you're making wild guesses and assertions ... you don't understand the full potentials.
Mind-reading, again. You don't know me, you don't know anyone who does. Really. We are a backwater down here, and have been for oh, about four-hundred fifty years now, give or take.
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Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm very comfortable because what I know I've seen played out ...
Nice to know you do not question what you think you know, and see what you want to see.
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Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm also very comfortable with speculating that the thought will cross your mind that you wish you could delete part of Jun's archives.
All mine, every word, even the completely goofy bits. Even the mistakes -- since I will own up to mine -- if you ever care to show one to me, instead of asserting my pathetic ignorance of your perfect wisdom and Great Truth. Failure is my teacher, daring to fail is my only wisdom, and any truth I have is utterly provisional. In regards to you, Mike, however, I seem, sadly, not to be learning all that much.

Do you really care so much about your perceived personal reputation that you think other people take it going the other way as some threat, or looming disaster, or a matter of even mild concern ?
If so, then Chuang-tzu would be deeply ashamed of you, as a student of the Tao, if, of course, he cared the slightest bit about shame.

But, of course, that would be speculating, so I won't.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:30 AM   #441
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Erick.... do you really think that O-Sensei, Tohei, and many others were stressing "RELAX" so that rotational movement would be better?
Yeah. Pretty much. Free and easy joints articulate rotations freer and easier.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Why not just strengthen the ligaments and tendons around the joints?
Because in a rotational framework increased ligament strength would only be useful to "store and realease" more "torque." Torque is material strain energy that is stopping or delaying a rotational moment -- i.e. resistance.

"Resistance is useless," Mike, everybody knows that.

Especially in torque -- becasue most structures are at their absolute weakest when stressed in torsion.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:10 PM   #442
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Yeah. Pretty much. Free and easy joints articulate rotations freer and easier.
Because in a rotational framework increased ligament strength would only be useful to "store and realease" more "torque." Torque is material strain energy that is stopping or delaying a rotational moment -- i.e. resistance.

"Resistance is useless," Mike, everybody knows that.

Especially in torque -- becasue most structures are at their absolute weakest when stressed in torsion.
There's two ways to make a bow. One of them focuses on the bow structure for the power and pulling the string stores potential energy in the bow; the other way would be to have a rigid bow and a string that is flexible, strong, and elastic so that the potential energy is stored in the string. You're only familiar with the first type of bow so you have trouble imagining the second type of bow when someone says "arrow".

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 02:24 PM   #443
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

[quote=Erick Mead]Yeah. Pretty much. Free and easy joints articulate rotations freer and easier.
Because in a rotational framework increased ligament strength would only be useful to "store and realease" more "torque." Torque is material strain energy that is stopping or delaying a rotational moment -- i.e. resistance.

"Resistance is useless," Mike, everybody knows that.

i always thought "I always thought resistance was futile"

sorry couldnt help myself there
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Old 12-29-2006, 04:57 PM   #444
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
There's two ways to make a bow. One of them focuses on the bow structure for the power and pulling the string stores potential energy in the bow; the other way would be to have a rigid bow and a string that is flexible, strong, and elastic so that the potential energy is stored in the string. You're only familiar with the first type of bow so you have trouble imagining the second type of bow when someone says "arrow".
A bow is NOT relaxed -- it has mighty tension in the string and tremendous flexion in the bow. It is about as UNRELAXED as anything I can possibly think of.

Nobody, (not even, and especially not even, aikidoka) walks around like a set of taut piano wires.

Cut one end of your bow string. Voila! It's a whip. And very relaxed. Of course, when relaxed you are a chain of linked bones -- but the same rules on conservation of angular momentum apply when you crack it like a whip.

Let one end of a chain fall and the tip of the falling chain has GREATER acccleration than gravity. In other words, conserved angular momentum in a constantly reducing radius can exceed the applied energy of the gravity you purport to use.

See here, http://math.arizona.edu/~ura/031/Taf...son/Report.pdf.
On page 2 there is a time lapse series of the simultaneous drop of a ball and the chain end.

It speaks for itself. There is power here. Utterly relaxed power.

The same dynamic is true -- exceeding the straight push, linear force input (your springy legs push, vice letting gravity pull) -- when applying legs or hip turns to rotation. You use the conserved angular momentum with reducing radius, and increase the angular velocity (e.g. - the chain ( micro) or the skater's spin (macro)) The result is a geometric increase of applied kinetic energy (square of the velocity term).

Conversely, an input force can be powerfully dissipated by the reverse mechanism. Receiving energy so as to allow you to turn ( even if your feet stay ion the same place) and then increasing the effective radius, conserves the angular momentum, but slows the angular velocity and thus reduces the applied energy at the connection. His attack evaporates.

Similar energy amplification or dissipation can be achieved with the square radius term in the moment of inertia equation. If you shift the center of the rotaiton you immediately alter the radius of the effective inertial moment of his attack in the new orientaiton and make his attackless effective.

A perfect example of this that is more simple to see in application is in the jo suburi, katate gedan gaeshi. The stick is coming up from below and behind you. If you just catch it with the free hand in the opposiut side jodan hasso, it still has a fair bit of residual energy when it hits your hand. Instead, place your free hand behind the gripping hand as it passes the target in front of you. As it continues to swing up and back, progressively extend the distance between the hands slding the rear hand back as you come to jodan hasso. It stops of its own accord because you have altered the inertial radius by opening the distance between your hands, and bled off nearly all the angular velocity by doing that.

If you shift his attack to different orientation where your static inertial moment is greater, his attack is inherently less effective. If your effective inertial radius becomes larger, uke requires a geometrically larger applied force to turn you. If his effective inertial radius becomes smaller, you require a geometrically smaller force to turn him.

You can combine these approaches using both principles. Using conservation of angular momentum you increase or dissipate angular velocity while also shifting centers of rotation to strategically alter moments of inertia of one or the other or both of the players.

There is a potential for a squared force multiplier at four points in the interaction of one technique. Nage's angular veloicity and his moment of inertia, and uke's angular velocity and his moment of inertia. If all four are either doubled or halved (to nage's advantage in each case), then the effectiveness of nage's strength is potentially magnified by 16 times on his own side (2^2 * 2^2), and the effectiveness of uke's strength is potentially diminished by a factor of 1/16th ((1/2)^2 * (1/2)^2).

The cumulative force multiplier to nage's advantage is 32 times the straight ahead strength contest. All of this comes from purely proper application of principles in aikido technique. This level of disparity in effective strength created wholly by technique explains a great deal of the dramatic nature of the "tricks" that everybody is so entranced by.

For everyone. Quit stressing, RELAX, do the techniques properly. They really do the work for you. Remember O Sensei was an eighty year-old guy doing these things to strapping young bucks and some doubting sumo champions. He convinced them that strength measures, even esoteric ones, were superfluous. He had an edge, and "core strength" was not it. Not at his age. Laser-like coordination and multiplicaiton of his available strength, that was.

For Mike: Do you have ways of making gravity or springy legs do that for you? Increase applied energy by the square in any single point of interaction. To combine four points of applicaiton in a single technique for a potential on the order of a thirty-two-fold effective strength advantage? In two ways, derived from the same basic operating principle?

Especially without ever having to get realky unrelaxed and tense up -- like a strung bow.

YOU acknowledge that this is not so much about the condition of the body as it is about the coordination of it by the mind. If you show me some square terms in your version of the mechanics by vector addition, I will be willing to believe that an eighty year-old man could employ them and take you far more seriously on the mechanical criticisms.

Otherwise, do what you do to train by whatever means, as long as it works to improve your training, and God bless you.

And Have a Happy New Year!.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 05:00 PM   #445
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Justin Thomas wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Yeah. Pretty much. Free and easy joints articulate rotations freer and easier.
Because in a rotational framework increased ligament strength would only be useful to "store and realease" more "torque." Torque is material strain energy that is stopping or delaying a rotational moment -- i.e. resistance.

"Resistance is useless," Mike, everybody knows that.
I always thought "resistance was futile"
There we go mixing up Borg and the Vogons again.

Is there no cultural literacy, anywhere?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 05:20 PM   #446
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
...
Cut one end of your bow string. Voila! It's a whip. And very relaxed. Of course, when relaxed you are a chain of linked bones -- but the same rules on conservation of angular momentum apply when you crack it like a whip.

Let one end of a chain fall and the tip of the falling chain has GREATER acccleration than gravity. In other words, conserved angular momentum in a constantly reducing radius can exceed the applied energy of the gravity you purport to use.
Gosh Erick, bondage, whips and chains?

Sorry, for thread drift, but it was way too funny to pass up....

Ignatius
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Old 12-29-2006, 05:27 PM   #447
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Erick Mead wrote:
A bow is NOT relaxed -- it has mighty tension in the string and tremendous flexion in the bow. It is about as UNRELAXED as anything I can possibly think of.
Well, I tried to tell you something important, but what the hey. That's the best hint I'll give you.



Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:06 PM   #448
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Ignatius Teo wrote:
Gosh Erick, bondage, whips and chains?

Sorry, for thread drift, but it was way too funny to pass up....
Fair enough. If you're laughing, you're listening. Surely, you have felt the cracking whip action in a really proper, totally relaxed ikkyo? It is there, without any doubt.

Bondage though -- that would be more like "contradictory tension", and therefore more of Mike's cup of tea....

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:34 PM   #449
eyrie
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

I'm not sure about a cracking whip action, certainly not in ikkyo, or whichever variation of ikkyo....

Also, my "version" of ikkyo could very well be different from yours....

OK, let's use ikkyo as an example... suwari-waza shomen uchi ikkyo... great way to feel the up-down contradictory tension, at least the way I do it.... AND... the harder uke pushes, the more they off-balance themselves.

YMMV...

Ignatius
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:40 PM   #450
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
when Tohei pushes someone by storing and releasing along the ground-based kokyu/jin path,
"Ground based", heh, like everything we do (skiing, brushing teeth, sitting in an armchair, etc.) since we touch the ground?

Wow, what explanatory power!

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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