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Old 12-28-2006, 10:23 PM   #401
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The so-called "internal work," "skills" seem -- from their advocates positions so far -- not to expand the scope of the internal to include the opponent, but to actually reduce it. I am a big fan of the utility of reductionist knowledge but I know enough not to stop there, or to deny the uses of holistic knwoledge, either.
From my POV, the 'internal' stuff, at least the specific brand of 'internal' stuff proposed by some people in this thread, seems to be some talk about 'oh we consciously alter force vectors'. Considering forces are everywhere; being sent from my fingers as I type, from my feet as I slide my chair on the floor, etc., and I can consciously alter all of these, they explain precisely nothing because they 'explain' everything.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:25 PM   #402
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
That begs the question then of how does one know that they really know it.
Well, I invited Chen Xiao Wang to my home and tried it out, Justin. What have you done besides worship Cheng Man Ching, a dead man whose skills you've only read about in a book, from behind your keyboard? Your idea of "begging the question" seems to always include an aversion to getting it on, for some reason.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:28 PM   #403
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
In the 1935 Asahi News demo, Osensei does exactly this in response to a two handed push to his shoulders. Uke goes flying back along the line of attack. Shioda used to do the exact same thing in his demos. No evasion, rotation, gyration or obfuscation. Morihei absorbs the incoming force by sending it through his body into the ground and then sends it right back.
Post it. We'll see.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:29 PM   #404
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
No, no.... the really sad part is that many of the people not following the advice of the Founder are in fact not only "doing Aikido", they're "teaching Aikido".... and still doing it wrong. Touche'!
Is that anything like people who claim to understand the basis to all internal martial arts but who haven't actually trained in said martial arts longer than the people they want to correct?

Just curious.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:40 PM   #405
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
, is usually the first exposure that most non-Ki-Society people get to practicing this skill and I think they're the worse for not having more focused drills in this exercise.
...
They never really get down to just working that kokyu/jin path over and over and developing it.
...
How well they did it (some were good, some not so good) is not so important.
...
The important thing was that they (a lot of them; some of them didn't have it and some missed it and were confused in how to bring it out)
...
There were a couple of guys who were OK in their ki skills, although I would have argued about perhaps a cleaner way to use the skills,
...
The troubling part about those other organizations is that too many of the instructor body do not have those baseline skills.
...
, it's the big crack in Aikido (trust me... it's a worse problem in
...
Will you teach an all aikido seminar to remedy this dire situation of lack of skills?

Quote:
That's the entre'. No ki/kokyu.... No Aikido. Same thing Ushiro Sensei says. Same think Tohei Sensei implied. Same thing from other sensei's, too.
The difference is, that their use of certain words seems to be much different than your use.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:55 PM   #406
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
I just love that explanation. Next time I'm at a meeting with a bunch of martial-arts experts, I'm going to have to tell this one as an anecdote. Quit these false gods, Erick, and follow the true god, Occam.
I knew you had some missionary in you, Mike. Explains a lot.

Occam??? Oh my. Oh no. Really? Omigod.

Using the father of Western reductionism to advocate the preferential use of holistic Chinese traditional concepts like jin and qi,and the Japanese version - kokyu, -- in place of physical mechanics that have been understood since Kepler and Newton?
There's a belly laugh.

Hoo-boy!

No. .. Hold on.

Really.

I'll catch my breath

.. in a minute...

Wait .. now, my eyes are tearing up,

I can't see.

--------------

Better now. Very relaxing though. I must recommend it. Contemplation of the utterly absurd. Very calming.

Try this "general, non-calculus introductory physics course" Rotational equlibrium and dynamics http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/rot/index.html

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:57 PM   #407
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Yes; of about 50,000 words from his last week's-worth of posts.
You counted? Making it shorter takes far too much time, Cady. Electrons are cheap.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:00 PM   #408
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I knew you had some missionary in you, Mike. Explains a lot.

Occam??? Oh my. Oh no. Really? Omigod.

Using the father of Western reductionism to advocate the preferential use of holistic Chinese traditional concepts like jin and qi,and the Japanese version - kokyu, -- in place of physical mechanics that have been understood since Kepler and Newton?
That's ummmmmm sort of silly since I've previously posted references and anecdotal support for the idea that "jin" has a close translation in "vector force". Although you flail around looking for support in big words and grandiose theories... you're drowning yourself.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:28 PM   #409
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
since I've previously posted references and anecdotal support for the idea that "jin" has a close translation in "vector force".
Tossing anecdotes aside since they're worthless, I wonder why some knowledgable Chinese martial artists still don't translate jin as "vector force".

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:30 PM   #410
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, I invited Chen Xiao Wang to my home and tried it out, Justin.
Then according to you

Quote:
My point has been that the people that really know it don't show it.
Chen Xiaowang doesn't really know it because he showed it.

Quote:
What have you done besides worship Cheng Man Ching, a dead man
Again, you have a strange definition of worship. But that's par for the course; you have a strange definition of jin, ki, etc., too.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:32 PM   #411
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
In the 1935 Asahi News demo, Osensei does exactly this in response to a two handed push to his shoulders. Uke goes flying back along the line of attack. Shioda used to do the exact same thing in his demos. No evasion, rotation, gyration or obfuscation. Morihei absorbs the incoming force by sending it through his body into the ground and then sends it right back.

Post it. We'll see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYUTRSvWcI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:45 PM   #412
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm afraid that at some point in time you're going to have to begin saving face by saying that your "gyational movement" is actually the simple vector addition that it's viewed as throughout Asia, except for some quasi-religious pockets.
To show me up, Mike, you first have to actually engage an argument with some evidence that actually proves what you say instead of assuming that what you want it to prove is there somehow. Sometime. Anytime. Really.

And did you ever ask yourself what sort of dynamic the Tai-Ji/In-Yo tomoe symbol is depicting ? Is that "vector addition" or is it "rotational conversion." You are aware, I take it, that in China and Japan pictographic symbols carry explicit, not merely metaphorical, meaning?

Altering eccentricity of rotation in 3D is NOT, repeat, NOT anything remotely like plane "vector addition" nor is angular momentum, nor inertial moments, nor is gyrostatic conservation of momentum that causes precessional tumbling. All of these things can be seen in basic movements of aikido and kokyu exercise, and in the videos that keep being offeried. Love to see more, by the way, to anyone who is listening.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
O-Sensei absorbs incoming forces with his legs and the mentally-trained vector addition I've mentioned; he returns the force at an angle underneath the incoming force.
Did he happen to mention that at all, anything like he mentioned the importance of Juji, the cross shape, 90 degrees even? You know, like where he referred to the art as "jujido", like he did in one of the Doka. Anything, something, about springy legs?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
According to your posted assertions, O-Sensei is doing Aikido wrong.
No, by definition he is doing it right, and I give his statements and teaching vastly more weight than you do. Like the "absolutely no resistance" that I am "hung up on" just because he said it.

You are just seeing it wrong, because you do not know what you are looking at in mechanical terms. Vectors sound good and they're easy. Who said kokyu was easy? It wouldn't be very martially useful if it were that easy. It is very simple -- but not easy.

Notably, you have never yet tried to rebut the mechanical analyses of the chest push video, the thigh push video, and now the head push and jo trick. I gave descriptions that people can judge for themselves from the videos whether it is descriptive of what they see or not. There has been no clamor against the analyses form that quarter either.

I may occasionally blather on for lack of time to tightly edit, but you just deny. That is not argument and persuades no one. It is just easy, and simple, and wrong.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:29 AM   #413
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYUTRSvWcI4
I saw the two handed shoulder grab in this one, which had slomo. I did not see the described move in the other one. But cool. Thanks.

The two-handed grab starts at the 00:05 mark and the slomo version at about 00:09.

First of all, it blows away Mike's "up from underneath" idea, since O Sensei is clearly carrying the connection with uke down from the top.

As uke grabs O Sensei's shoulders, he commences a forward and downward rotation of the torso from the hips as with a deep giri cut. Uke's connection is tangent to that rotation, and so perpendicularity is preserved. Uke's hands are rotated down at the wrist, and there is a complementary rotation of his elbows forward and up, which then also pops his shoulders up.

With his elbows and shoulders up, he can no longer push on O Sensei, and he has to dump all that momentum he built up if he is to stay upright. He has to lift his center to bleed off more momentum but he cannot get high enough, without getting vertical. To get upright he has to bring his bottom part forward more under him, and his top part back.
O Sensei blends with the top-backward rotation of his attempted recovery. Uke's arms are at full extension by this time and they are braced against O Sensei, and the irimi of his motion, combined wiht uke attempt at recovery is enough through uke's shoulders to pitch uke back off his feet. By the time uke's fall begins properly, O Sensei is actually at the bottom of his "cut" moving away.

Basically, he applied upon uke the reverse wave of the proper kokyu tanden ho movement, and got the reverse result. He cracked the whip using uke's own arms. A wave is just a translated rotational energy.

You can feel the means of producing and the direction of the rotations that uke felt yourself. Extend your arms in front of you in tegatana . Now without voluntarily changing your elbow curve, rotate your wrists vertically down to their comfortable limit. Now force them slightly past that with wrist tension alone, and see what happens to your elbows and feel what changes in your shoulders. That, in a much sharper and more kinetic impulse dynamic, is what happened to uke in the video.

Counting all together we have:
1) O Sensei's rotaiton of his torso forward and down
2) the induced downward rotaton of uke's hands at the wrist
3) the upward complemetary rotation of the forearm at the elbow,
4) then the same again at the shoulder
5) Uke' torso rotation trying to recover his balance., which is just continued as his throw

Do you take my my point, now?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:43 AM   #414
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atiMoGT6dgM

@ 1:03-1:06 ?
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Old 12-29-2006, 01:58 AM   #415
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

And this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUtQ1...elated&search=

@ 0:51-0:55 (from the BACK and FRONT).

Ignatius
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:05 AM   #416
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
To show me up, Mike, you first have to actually engage an argument with some evidence that actually proves what you say instead of assuming that what you want it to prove is there somehow. Sometime. Anytime. Really.
I'm not going to engage in a specious argument of yours that I grokked immediately when you laid it out, Erick. Nor am I going to get drawn into side issues by needlessly stating obvious things like vectors are first-order tensors and then using 3-dimensional cartesian coordinates that we can gleefully solve using matrices and determinants. It's simply a game you want to play and one that I see as pointless. Before you start your bulky analyses, you need to know the subject... to talk, you must first show the right to talk. As far as I'm concerned, you've never argued from any position except your "credentials". Credentials and $4 will buy you a cup of Latte at Starbucks.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:14 AM   #417
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

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Erick Mead wrote:
First of all, it blows away Mike's "up from underneath" idea, since O Sensei is clearly carrying the connection with uke down from the top.
Bzzzzzt. Dishonesty. That's not the video I was talking about.... different example, so don't apply my logic to it.
Quote:
As uke grabs O Sensei's shoulders, he commences a forward and downward rotation of the torso from the hips as with a deep giri cut.
Yes, he uses a weight vector instead of a ground vector. Ever notice how often I put in " ground (or weight) " in my descriptions? Let's skip this one and stick with the simpler ones from the ground, the ones that were under discussion. There's something about the weight ones that I don't want to blab in public. BTW..... there's your yin-yang (in-yo) dichotomy.... the ground or the weight.

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:18 AM   #418
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
Nice chest bounce (since we're sticking to the simple examples for analysis' sake) near the middle, but in that one, Shioda simply charges into the oncoming push, relying on his ground-supported MV to be greater than Uke's obviously lesser mv. No real neutralization. Certainly no "gyrational movement".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:26 AM   #419
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Talking Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Nice chest bounce (since we're sticking to the simple examples for analysis' sake) near the middle, but in that one, Shioda simply charges into the oncoming push, relying on his ground-supported MV to be greater than Uke's obviously lesser mv. No real neutralization. Certainly no "gyrational movement".

FWIW

Mike
Don't be so sure Mike, if you analyze the movement with the latest NASA supercomputer, you might be surprised to find some microscopic gyroscopic movement. LOL

Mark
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:30 AM   #420
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
Don't be so sure Mike, if you analyze the movement with the latest NASA supercomputer, you might be surprised to find some microscopic gyroscopic movement. LOL
Absolutely. In fact, we might even work quantum mechanics and super-strings into a really rigorous analysis!


Here's more what I had in mind for analysis. This is a clip showing Ueshiba in a few thigh bounces and at least one front-on chest bounce:

http://www.neijia.com/UeshibaKokyu.wmv

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:53 AM   #421
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Absolutely. In fact, we might even work quantum mechanics and super-strings into a really rigorous analysis!


Here's more what I had in mind for analysis. This is a clip showing Ueshiba in a few thigh bounces and at least one front-on chest bounce:

http://www.neijia.com/UeshibaKokyu.wmv

Best.

Mike
Let me start out by saying I'm a robotics engineer with formal education and training in electronics so I know all about and have an aptitude in technical analysis. In my job, this aptitude has been a tremendous benefit, in the dojo this has been a tremendous liability. In fact, my teacher used to scream at me "stop thinking, stop analyzing......you're moving like one of your robots." It took me years and years to "let go" so that I could get the basics. Now that I have a better understanding of the basics (15+ years worth) I'm starting to analyze (off-line, not during or as part of my regular training) the training methods/technical curriculum in some detail. Still though, I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling Erick's superanalytical dissertations with what I "feel" in the dojo. When I read them I can't help but recall the phrase "the analysis of paralysis"......

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 12-29-2006 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:05 AM   #422
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Now imagine the ukes not doing that type of ukemi.
How much force do you think is "really" being applied by Ueshiba, folks?
What do you suppose that level of force would like if it were applied to students who were actually trained to have structure both in attack and defense? How would their bodies both generate force to begin with? And then, how would their properly trained bodies respond?

Picture Ueshiba trying to do that to the Shioda that appeared in his later videos?
What would trained structure of the uke bring into the mix?
Who is being trained .....exactly.. to do what?
Why can you be trained to start to do these things in a short time, yet no one is?
Who doesn't even know, and was never taught to begin with?
Who is being duped into years long apprentiships playing crash test dummy hoping for the "goods?"
Maybe..... there is another way?
In the end why would anyone ....ever...train to "react" like that?

As I've said for decades "Want to "really" watch a martial arts demonstration and see." Watch the attacks, not the person doing his schtick.

Just who, is enabling whom, to do exactly what?
A better uke would be a better Nage. A better Nage is all about taking ukemi and remaning standing.
And what you do in order too better receive is all about you training you...not doing things to them.

Full speed...in the wrong direction.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2006 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:14 AM   #423
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Who is being duped into years long apprentiships playing crash test dummy hoping for the "goods?"
Maybe..... there is another way?
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

On a related note to your question above, I went to the chiropractor yesterday (after a year long absence from treatment) and he said to me "your skeletal frame is a mess.......are you still subjecting your body to that train wreck you call martial art practice?". I do frequently ask myself the question "is there a smarter, safer way to train that doesn't compromise the essence of the practice?". One of the few reasons I'm looking for a smarter way is because I want to practice my entire life and at the rate I'm going I'll be hurting by the time I hit 50. Over the years of training I've sustained the following injuries: two torn labrums (both sides), one partially torn distal biceps tendon, separated AC joint, knee cap tracking problem, lower back problems.

Despite feeling that this way is out there, I keep rolling snake eyes on my own. That is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to hooking up with you in the new year.

Best,

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 12-29-2006 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:20 AM   #424
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Bzzzzzt. Dishonesty. That's not the video I was talking about.... different example, so don't apply my logic to it. Yes, he uses a weight vector instead of a ground vector. Ever notice how often I put in " ground (or weight) " in my descriptions? Let's skip this one and stick with the simpler ones from the ground, the ones that were under discussion. There's something about the weight ones that I don't want to blab in public. BTW..... there's your yin-yang (in-yo) dichotomy.... the ground or the weight.
Doesn't fit so let's not discuss it? Ground reaction is a different physical principle (mass inertia) from gravity acceleration (attraction between two masses). Thus, you are founding your model on TWO fundamental physical principles. Actually since you are interposing supposed spring tension (strain energy) in the legs it is actually THREE principles.

Angular momentum is ONE principle. It has no resistive component since all interactions are at right angles. The effect of your sense of vector additon is achieved, but not by the means you assume. The principle of angular momentum and its conservation explains things that vector addition simply cannot be used for. That is what you are playing with when you shift centers of rotation or alter the radius of turn. It is used as easily going up or coming down (and left, right or kitty-corner, for that matter). It works both for the micro movement of the limbs or the macro movments of the body. As O Sensei showed.

So TWO or THREE fundamental physical principles underlying kokyu or ONE.

Let's get a second opinion, shall we?

Doctor Occam? -- paging Doctor Occam??

The Taiji tomoe, which you did not address is one whole with two eccentric centers enfolding one another in rotation. It is a marvelous cross-sectional depiction of the hips in rotation -- isn't it?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-29-2006 at 09:23 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2006, 09:27 AM   #425
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
That's the second vid. Did anyone notice that, for the most part, once Ueshiba touched the attacker, he didn't move very much. I don't mean his arms, I mean his feet and body. He really doesn't move around much once contact was made.

Mark
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