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Old 12-28-2006, 10:29 AM   #376
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
To cut to the chase, this basic Kokyu exercise is meant to develop kokyu, the middle, and the hips/upper-thighs to some extent (suwari techniques are meant to do this last even more). ... There are a number of versions of "the right way to do Kokyu Ho", but you have to always ask yourself, "What is the main intent of this drill or technique?". ... The main purpose is to teach someone how to use kokyu force, the essential method of movement/power in Aikido and most other Asian arts when done beyond the amateur level. Anything other than that practice is extraneous to a basic Kokyu-Tanden-ho.
There we go, agreeing again.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
For all practical purposes, I could kneel in front of a wall with one of those large inflatable exercise-balls on top of my hands which are resting on my thighs, and then lift up and into the wall slowly, keeping a pure kokyu force (not strength) going from my hips throught the ball to the wall. It's the same basic practice, if you cut to the heart of the exercise.
Ah, disagreement. Conflict.

Dynamics is not statics. Isometrics does not give dynamic feedback and so is limited in its abilty to provide the first issue in kokyu dosa -- which is musubi, the connection that must be established to provides both "feel" and the route of control.
Quote:
Kuroda wrote:
To state my conclusion first, I can win as long as my opponent strikes first. ... When I practiced this with my students, the speed of the attack was irrelevant, and I could win easily. This was only because I had developed the eyes to see the movement of the opponent's spirit. This inner vision is, in Kono Sensei's words, a spirit of technical dimension called rapport or telepathy or the working of the brain--I can't find the appropriate words for this.
That dynamic is missing in an isometric exercise. The orientation of the attack and required musubi changes constantly throughout the kokyu dosa exercise. Just as you cannot tickle yourself, any sense of applying kokyu between you and the wall is merely a reflection of yourself and not the same as partnered kokyu exercise.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Is it "resistance"? Sure. ...
And thus the problem. Train for what you do. Do not train to do what you do not wish to do.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Actual waza should avoid resistance; exercises are not waza, even though some people try to make them so.
Why avoid resistance? Why make the distinction? Kuroda seems to disagree with a distinction that wouold allow kata (exercises) to depart in principle from waza (tehcniques).
Quote:
Kuroda wrote:
I take a common sense viewpoint with respect to these kinds of kata. In other words, I believe that kata are not substitutes for actual fighting. If there were such a thing as kata that can be used in a real situation, I would like to see them. I think that it was in this sense that Morihei Ueshiba O-Sensei used to say that one should not attach too much importance to kata. However, this is something that only a man of his stature, who has already reached that level, can say. We ordinary people would lose all clues about how to execute real techniques if we were to reject the kata.
...
However, from the standpoint of someone who has trained with a complete understanding of techniques from the beginning, everything will seem natural. It will simply seem to be the result of accumulated training and the degree of training. The kata are what lead one to this level.
O Sensei's point, which Kuroda gave due credit, was that adherence to set form can obscure principle, especially in a dynamic art, and he was more concerned with innate principle. Kuroda's point is that kata or exercises have an continuing evolutionary relationship to techniques, and at every level of development. If the exercises are, in principle, different from the techniques, there is a serious problem.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:44 AM   #377
Thomas Campbell
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
[snip]
5. You can teach much the same idea in ground fighting positions like the guard and the mount and side mount. Oops.. that may be too much for the Art-in-a-box crowd to absorb.

[snip]
Thanks for the idea, Dan. Will do (once the doc gives the go-ahead). Looking at it, it seems like an obvious extension of working from sitting, but sometimes the obvious eludes us.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:05 AM   #378
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Dynamics is not statics. Isometrics does not give dynamic feedback and so is limited in its abilty to provide the first issue in kokyu dosa -- which is musubi, the connection that must be established to provides both "feel" and the route of control. That dynamic is missing in an isometric exercise.
Y'know.... you keep trying to make everything waza and you don't understand that if you're using basically the wrong type of strength, all your waza training is wrong.

And BTW.... just as you go off on the wrong track about "resistance" (notice you don't want to say much about Ueshiba's use of it other than to say he "didn't teach it"... which is not totally true, BTW), you also go off on the wrong track about "isometrics". The proper kind of resistance is fine. The proper kind of "isometrics" is fine. The proper kind of "strength" is fine, used in context with the tactics and strategy of Aikido.

But, I'm not going to argue this thing on Kokyu-ho too specifically because some of it comes close to information that I think people need to find out for themselves. Lengthy internet analyses never created a single master.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:11 AM   #379
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

In post #375, Dan wrote, paraphrasing or quoting Sagawa:
Quote:
It is more important to strengthen the body than seek flexibility. No matter how flexible you make the body there is no point if it is weak. Making the body flexible AFTER you strengthen it is a different story altogether…Strengthening your body will bring about a "sharpness" to your technique.
If you wander over to Aikido Journal, you will find an interview up with Abe Seiseki:
Quote:
INTERVIEWER: Wasn't Sensei somewhere around 75 years old at that time?

ABE: That's right, and extremely healthy. His body had the flexibility of someone seventeen or eighteen years old. Even so, he had gradually lost weight (over the years) and he complained about how much his muscles were sagging. But, when he put his ki into them, "pop," they became hard as steel.
Which leads to some metaphoric connections. What's the difference between iron and steel? Because Abe didn't say "hard as iron," which would be a description of a hard, heavy, dense metal that is not very flexible and doesn't take an edge. Steel, on the other hand, is flexible, hard and takes an incredible edge. What was that thing that Ueshiba is reported to have said? Oh yeah, "Aikido is a manifestation of the sword." Perhaps that too has an internal component. At any rate, "muscles like steel" WHEN you put "ki" (what's that again) in them, leads to a different type of "blending," doesn't it? Soft muscles to steel muscles - just like that. POP!

Best

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Old 12-28-2006, 11:29 AM   #380
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi Ellis
More excellent points as well. Hmmm... metaphores, metaphores. What is the optimum tempering quality for simple steels as commonly decribed? What are its attributes in load bearing and shock absorption?
Spring temper. Spring steel.
Maximul ductile range of a given type while retaining a measure of hardness. How would that relate to mind, bone and sinew. How do we find it in ourselves? How do we step beyond?

What are we seeing? The connections are all connected!
The "steel in cotton" phrase of Taiji the "flexible steel" phrase often used in DR. And students missing that "hard feel" source and trying to mimic it by either speed or strength and blowing the whole thing. Then on to shapes and movements. Anything but getting the source. What the hell were they doing all along? Where do we breath? What do we lead into what, where? Why is it like soft wrapped movable steel on the surface? How can they train in the winter and be warm with no gloves?
In practical training.
Why is nage....Uke?
Why push?
Why solo train?
Why are long weapons valuable for the body. Whats...out there?
The answers being hidden in plain site.
The solution being to stop, turn around, and go full speed in the other direction...and still do Aikido.
It will just look different.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2006 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:34 AM   #381
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
At any rate, "muscles like steel" WHEN you put "ki" (what's that again) in them, leads to a different type of "blending," doesn't it? Soft muscles to steel muscles - just like that. POP!
I always liked the phrase "....when you mobilize the qi."

Kokyu/jin manipulations aren't that hard to do and learn. And as Kuroda noted in that interview, against a skilled martial artist these tricks aren't always as earth-shaking as they are against a neophyte in a demonstration setup. Not that they're not useful martially.. just not the end of the world as we know it.

On the other hand, to have the ki to mobilize and make those muscles as hard as steel takes a long time to develop. It's different than the kokyu/jin stuff in that regard.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:21 PM   #382
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
"Immovability" "Not moving?" Look closer, my friend. Why was his head doing these nifty little sagittal plane rotations and forward extensions, alternately extending his neck, lifting and dropping his chin slightly in response to the pushes? You even see him do quite clearly once in the close-up. Pretty much letting himself "be moved," just not in the way they wanted him to move."
If that is what you meant then I don't disagree. The interaction is a dynamic one where forces are changing and coming in different directions and of course he has to make minor adjustments to reconnect to these changing forces and to "ground" them out or neutralize them. In most other demonstrations of "immovability" there are also such minor adjustments always taking place. I never equated immovability (in the macro sense) with being completely frozen still or not moving at all (in the more micro sense of the adjustments you noted). And I would venture to guess everyone else referring to these "immovability" exercises would also not equate the two. If you were earlier arguing about necessary movement in that micro sense and I misinterpreted what you said then I apologize.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:36 PM   #383
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
James Young wrote:
If that is what you meant then I don't disagree. The interaction is a dynamic one where forces are changing and coming in different directions and of course he has to make minor adjustments to reconnect to these changing forces and to "ground" them out or neutralize them. In most other demonstrations of "immovability" there are also such minor adjustments always taking place. I never equated immovability (in the macro sense) with being completely frozen still or not moving at all (in the more micro sense of the adjustments you noted). And I would venture to guess everyone else referring to these "immovability" exercises would also not equate the two.
I agree with you, James. However, the amount of movement can vary between a beginner and an expert, between someone with great strength and someone with not-so-great strength (and as Ueshiba got older, you can be assured that his powers weren't as great as when he was in his prime), and most important of all is how much force is actually being applied. For instance, as I've mentioned before, Tohei's "immoveable" stance would not be so immoveable in front of a speeding 1955 Chevrolet pickup truck. I.e., there are common-sense limits to these events and trying to talk common sense while someone else is trying to pick the fly-shit out of pepper can be fairly non-productive.

Positing for a moment that some beginner pushes against Ueshiba in his prime and Ueshiba doesn't move a hair (i.e., not discernibly), there is no "rotation" to worry about in any sensible analysis. Things can be overanalyzed to the point that they get incomprehensible.... as Adam tried to diplomatically point out to Erick.

The discussion has been sensible for the macro phenomena. The micro discussions seem to be a refuge, rather than an attempt to discuss any agreed-upon macro phenomenon. And that seems to be because the subject isn't fully comprehended by everyone.

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:52 PM   #384
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
However, the amount of movement can vary between a beginner and an expert, between someone with great strength and someone with not-so-great strength (and as Ueshiba got older, you can be assured that his powers weren't as great as when he was in his prime), and most important of all is how much force is actually being applied.
Absolutely. Abe-sensei has an exercise where he has people grap him strongly in morote-dori and then he returns that energy back to them with a slight wrist motion which in turn takes their center. When I practice this I can sometimes do it but my wrist movement is quite visible. When Abe-sensei does it his movement can be practically invisible as he talks about getting it down to 1mm or less.
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:13 PM   #385
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
James Young wrote:
Absolutely. Abe-sensei has an exercise where he has people grap him strongly in morote-dori and then he returns that energy back to them with a slight wrist motion which in turn takes their center. When I practice this I can sometimes do it but my wrist movement is quite visible. When Abe-sensei does it his movement can be practically invisible as he talks about getting it down to 1mm or less.
Another factor to consider also is how cooperative the Uke's are. Many times I watch a demo that I can grok the point of but I can't fully judge how valid the demo is because of that floating percentage between skill, strength, and uke-cooperation. I'll bet if some of the partners you tried it with also became uke's for Abe Sensei doing the same demo, you really wouldn't be sure exactly how much of it was due to Abe's skill versus Uke's shill.

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:21 PM   #386
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
James Young wrote:
Absolutely. Abe-sensei has an exercise where he has people grap him strongly in morote-dori and then he returns that energy back to them with a slight wrist motion which in turn takes their center. When I practice this I can sometimes do it but my wrist movement is quite visible. When Abe-sensei does it his movement can be practically invisible as he talks about getting it down to 1mm or less.
Not this is what Abe Sensei is doing at all. It just brought something to mind we were talking about in the dojo the other night.

It might be worth mentioning that while using ground strength is a good beginning to gaining a sense of neutrality in order to capture center on contact.... it is not required or the only way. Many have gotten by with forms of Hiriki for years. You can have various windings in the body that manipulate others forces. But here's the thing they will never lead to higher skills. In a sense we can be cheated out of a deeper study by an expert in a lower level skill.
Being able to use the whole mind/body connection to build you one step at a time to being able to eventually remain neutral under more pressing loads and change-ups when someone enters your sphere and you can instantly respond.... is far beyond hiriki and shapes of hands.
It is why Sagawa dismissed some "very" famous men- as going in the wrong direction.
It isn't in the hands.
It's all in the hands.
Those two statements are as far apart as the earth to the moon.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2006 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:39 PM   #387
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Being able to use the whole mind/body connection to build you one step at a time to being able to eventually remain neutral under more pressing loads and change-ups when someone enters your sphere and you can instantly respond.... is far beyond hiriki and shapes of hands.
James said, "....he returns that energy back to them with a slight wrist motion." I.e., I didn't read that to mean "he returns that energy back to them by means of a slight wrist motion." Abe knows full well how to use jin, as has been highlighted by a number of Gernot's posts.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:47 PM   #388
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Y'know.... if you're using basically the wrong type of strength, all your waza training is wrong.
A point on which we once more, sadly, agree.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And BTW.... just as you go off on the wrong track about "resistance" (notice you don't want to say much about Ueshiba's use of it other than to say he "didn't teach it"... which is not totally true, BTW)
"We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker." He said it - I didn't. Complain to him, not me.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
, you also go off on the wrong track about "isometrics".
It was your example ...
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But, I'm not going to argue this thing on Kokyu-ho too specifically because some of it comes close to information that I think people need to find out for themselves.
But quite a few here have found those things out. One of your complaints is that they do not do it very well. The criticism is fine where constructive. Some here do do it well. The discussion about the concepts and principles to apply in relaxed kokyu training is very useful to both.

But the mind instructs the body -- just as the body intstructs the mind. It is good to do both, and not disregard either one in favor of the other. One or two things have been improved in course of human endeavor by carefully working out concepts that are already applied in practice , and by more carrefully laying out their principles in concept, finding ways to improve performance, ease of use or facility of instruction.

O Sensei advocated a course of development in scientific terms very specifically in Budo Renshu.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:54 PM   #389
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
James said, "....he returns that energy back to them with a slight wrist motion." I.e., I didn't read that to mean "he returns that energy back to them by means of a slight wrist motion." Abe knows full well how to use jin, as has been highlighted by a number of Gernot's posts.

FWIW

Mike
Huh??
I know. That's why I opened with this
Not that this is what Abe Sensei is doing at all. The post juds brought something to mind we were talking about in the dojo the other night

....and I wanted to SPECIFICALLY make sure I was not referring to him when I said it.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-28-2006, 02:26 PM   #390
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
James Young wrote:
If that is what you meant then I don't disagree. The interaction is a dynamic one where forces are changing and coming in different directions and of course he has to make minor adjustments to reconnect to these changing forces and to "ground" them out or neutralize them. In most other demonstrations of "immovability" there are also such minor adjustments always taking place. I never equated immovability (in the macro sense) with being completely frozen still or not moving at all (in the more micro sense of the adjustments you noted). And I would venture to guess everyone else referring to these "immovability" exercises would also not equate the two. If you were earlier arguing about necessary movement in that micro sense and I misinterpreted what you said then I apologize.
I'll except out your comments about grounding and neutralization, and say I think we do agree, and then point out the problem with those terms.

To paraphrase Mencken, as long as uke gets what he wants, and gets it good and hard, then Aikido is happening. Uke should be getting movement that he wants, but be initially befuddled why it is not working out like he planned. As long as uke gets to open his desired treasure box and then recoils from the snake that wants to kiss him, then Aikido is happening. It is always his decision to make, not mine.

"Rooting, grounding and neutralization" in the sense that uke cannot sense a movement as he intended it is perceived as resistance and provokes reaction to that perception. The moment I input force opposing his, in any component whatsoever, it communicates a direct signal in the primary channel. He then knows exactly why it is not working becasue he senses me stopping him. Oppositional force provokes a response because his mind is keenly focussed there. And he will react by changing what he is doing. I do not want him to do that.

If all my forces are at right angles (juji) to his, and all my responses give him the limb/body rotations/contact he was looking for, then my manipulations of the center of rotations and of perpendicular components of force do not provoke any intial response. And then if he continues to do what he planned -- I have already beaten him.

Getting ready to oppose him, I will get tensed. If aII I am doing is laying my small amount of force on him from the side, I can be more relaxed and just lay my hand, or body at the place it needs to be and then just move my whole center there in one piece.

Kokyu training allows one to better perceive those secondary channel inputs on the other two coordinate planes. That's why Mike's point about these things not working in the same way against more skilled opponents is true, they are not so single-minded as the attacker without kokyu training. Then it is a chess match -- where, generally, the first one to give up -- ends up winning.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-28-2006 at 02:29 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:43 PM   #391
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
"We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker." He said it - I didn't. Complain to him, not me.
That's fine, Erick, but there are a number of videos of O-Sensei taking a direct push to his chest, his back, his thigh, etc., and knocking people back. Your absolute assertion that in Aikido the response must be 90-degrees or more to the incoming force are simply wrong and I'm tired of pointing it out. You don't know what you're talking about. And you STILL have not been able to differentiate in your theories how kokyu force is different from normally-used force, so all your theories are pretty certainly based around normal force. If you understood what kokyu force was, it would have been clear some time ago in the conversation, implying pretty clearly that you don't understand.

What you do with your wildly complicated (I'm not saying that I haven't seen people do exactly what you're doing.... I'm just saying it misses the point; they didn't have any kokyu skills to speak of either) description of kokyu-ho is miss the point. O-Sensei's responses to the pushes I mention above.. to the chest, to the back, to the thigh, etc.... are him showing his kokyu/jin skills. Yes, someone can duplicate those things coarsely (although I'd bet you can't do the thigh one correctly), but they don't have the jin or the supporting ki. The "jo-trick" can be duplicated with a light-enough push, etc., but that's not what O-Sensei was showing... it misses the point to do it muscularly. The unbendable arm can be duplicated in several ways that use mostly muscle... but that misses the point. You're missing the point of the basic strength and you're sliding in the excuse that certain things don't meet your personal criteria for Aikido, so they can't be allowed as training for Aikido. Absolute buffoonery. You've seen the point at some time in the past, obviously, or you wouldn't be continuing with this fatuous dodge. Training the basic strengths of Aikido (the conditioning training) is not the art of Aikido. But I've said that in numerous posts. Your implication is that Tohei's "Ki Tests" cannot be part of Aikido. Tell it to Tohei, who actually studied with Ueshiba. Tell it to Ikeda for bringing in Ushiro.


In other words, instead of asserting your take on what O-Sensei meant and putting in angles of forces for him that he himself did not adhere to (on video!!!), why don't you go learn what it is that you're missing, as has been suggested to you a number of times?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:21 PM   #392
Erick Mead
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
That's fine, Erick, but there are a number of videos of O-Sensei taking a direct push to his chest, his back, his thigh, etc., and knocking people back. Your absolute assertion that in Aikido the response must be 90-degrees or more to the incoming force are simply wrong and I'm tired of pointing it out.
Yes, I know, because you do not understand the mechanics, while I do understand the use of kokyu. He did use it to reorient their own force to knock them back and never used a force that was in anyway in opposition to theirs to do it.

NASA uses a similar principle every time they de-orbit orbit a shuttle (which not too coincidentally, is basically what you are doing to your uke with technique -- BTW). That kind of mechanics is just as counter-intuitive to your "common sense" as kokyu is in linear "push-pull" mechanical terms. It ain't "push-pull" at all. That's what they mean when they talk about "rocket science."

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And you STILL have not been able to differentiate in your theories how kokyu force is different from normally-used force, so all your theories are pretty certainly based around normal force.
That's because the difference between kokyu force and "normal" force is that kokyu force is actually applied normally.

See if you can get the joke in that.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you understood what kokyu force was, it would have been clear some time ago in the conversation, implying pretty clearly that you don't understand.
Actually, you inferred that. I implied nothing of the kind.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
[jo trick] it misses the point to do it muscularly.
Ah. His hips turned. I guess I missed that anatomy lesson where muscles weren't involved in that. It is in the applicaiton of all of the structure, the whole of it together, and I am pretty sure that muscles have to come included.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Absolute buffoonery. You've seen the point at some time in the past, obviously, or you wouldn't be continuing with this fatuous dodge.
Ah -- the Mike I've come to know and love.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Your implication is that Tohei's "Ki Tests" cannot be part of Aikido. Tell it to Tohei, who actually studied with Ueshiba.
Again YOUR inference, nothing implied by me. And again -- way above my paygrade.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tell it to Ikeda for bringing in Ushiro.
Why don't YOU tell him why he brought in Ushiro -- I surely won't presume to do so. I've met him. He's a nice man. With a broad mind. And a generous host by all accounts. You have some ideas he said something that he actually didn't but I addressed that before elsewhere.

Or perhaps you think he just "implied" it, in which case, I apologize.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In other words, instead of asserting your take on what O-Sensei meant and putting in angles of forces for him that he himself did not adhere to (on video!!!),
"They have eyes -- but do not see, ears -- but do not hear." It is all there -- in the videos. The chest push, thigh push, now head push and jo trick. Every one that has been shown has the little rotational conversions and (mathematically) normal forces. I do hope you got the joke.

You can see it if you know what you are looking for -- and wish to see. I've described it the mechanics of the visible motions for each example that has been offered.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:35 PM   #393
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Yes, I know, because you do not understand the mechanics, while I do understand the use of kokyu. He did use it to reorient their own force to knock them back and never used a force that was in anyway in opposition to theirs to do it.
Don't get me wrong, Erick.... I see and have seen for quite some time what your theory is. I'm afraid that at some point in time you're going to have to begin saving face by saying that your "gyational movement" is actually the simple vector addition that it's viewed as throughout Asia, except for some quasi-religious pockets. O-Sensei absorbs incoming forces with his legs and the mentally-trained vector addition I've mentioned; he returns the force at an angle underneath the incoming force. That's the essence of it. You're reduced to arguing that joints are rotational devices so you "knew it all along". Sorry. Forget NASA. Just look at simple vector addition and, while you're at it, admit that you were wrong about your orthogonal or more assertion. According to your posted assertions, O-Sensei is doing Aikido wrong.

Mike Sigman

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 05:35 PM   #394
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
NASA uses a similar principle every time they de-orbit orbit a shuttle
I just love that explanation. Next time I'm at a meeting with a bunch of martial-arts experts, I'm going to have to tell this one as an anecdote. Quit these false gods, Erick, and follow the true god, Occam.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2006, 05:50 PM   #395
Mark Freeman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quit these false gods, Erick, and follow the true god, Occam.
Is someone in need of a shave?

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-28-2006, 06:44 PM   #396
Cady Goldfield
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Yes; of about 50,000 words from his last week's-worth of posts.
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Old 12-28-2006, 06:58 PM   #397
raul rodrigo
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
O-Sensei absorbs incoming forces with his legs and the mentally-trained vector addition I've mentioned; he returns the force at an angle underneath the incoming force. That's the essence of it. You're reduced to arguing that joints are rotational devices so you "knew it all along". Sorry. Forget NASA. Just look at simple vector addition and, while you're at it, admit that you were wrong about your orthogonal or more assertion.

In the 1935 Asahi News demo, Osensei does exactly this in response to a two handed push to his shoulders. Uke goes flying back along the line of attack. Shioda used to do the exact same thing in his demos. No evasion, rotation, gyration or obfuscation. Morihei absorbs the incoming force by sending it through his body into the ground and then sends it right back.
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Old 12-28-2006, 08:53 PM   #398
eyrie
 
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
There's a key to relaxing that is critical, but no one has even come close to mentioning it.
For those wondering, thinking and questioning... perhaps this might help...
http://www.ec-online.net/Knowledge/A...ionresist.html

I think there are several elements to attaining a "state" of relaxation, however unnatural it may be, but if I had to pick a key/critical element, I would be guessing "state of mind"...

Ignatius
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:11 PM   #399
statisticool
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Those here who have the historical and technical knowledge (and who may practice MMA) are saying that these internal skills are the birthright of aikido, and that it time for aikido to take them back and truly live Ueshiba's vision. What does that have to do with MMA?
Clearly the MMA types involved with aikido means that aikidoka have to start selling supplements, make their gis look like NASCARs with ads all over them, and maybe get cute "tough" nicknames, for example Terry "The Crazy Butcher" Dobson, John "I'll Remove Your Liver with a Rusty Spoon" Stevens, and Moriteru "I'll Break You, Punk!" Ueshiba.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:15 PM   #400
statisticool
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
My point has been that the people that really know it don't show it.
That begs the question then of how does one know that they really know it.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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