Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-27-2006, 04:19 PM   #351
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
[Referring to "push" tests] Actually, I do not have any "test" like that. My test is for someone to push me and I let them move me. It's enough to tell me what I want to know.
Hmmmm. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=343
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Kidding aside, and for curiousity sake.
1. Can you stand in a room and have a 225 pound guy push on your chest without you moving?
2. Can you let someone push on the side of your head while you stand there?
3. Let somone pile drive into you and they bounce off?

Again these are just some simple things I do at the gym and at constructions sites. How about at a dojo?
1. Can you let a judoka try and play you without you using any technique at all and when he tries to throw you he gets a feeling that he is locking himself up and he can't throw you?
2. give somone and arm and try to lock you up and they canlt do anything with it?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You're missing the point, Erick. Everyone keeps telling you that, but still you go on theorizing.
It is a point you "got," too, Mike, you just do not realize how significant the problem is in what you advocate, because you are not trying to do Aikido -- you are doing something else albeit with a related set of skills. That is and has been my only point.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=347
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
[To Dan: re pushing] Many of your early examples indicate that your own students, etc., could not move you... in which case you were either not showing them how to do something or you were magical or they are slow-witted, etc. The "of course you're showing" has been obvious to me, but not to the dear readers of the forum.
Quote:
Mike Siogman wrote:
You're so ..... well, "dramatic".
Oh, Touche'. Marginally better than "ignorant"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 04:25 PM   #352
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

I'm Mike. That's Dan. He lives in Massachusetts.
Quote:
you just do not realize how significant the problem is in what you advocate, because you are not trying to do Aikido -- you are doing something else albeit with a related set of skills.
Hmmmmm.... actually that statement pretty much fits you, Erick, if you read my earlier post about what Aikido is and who does it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 04:25 PM   #353
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The "skills" that the advocates seem to find missing in AIkido sound pretty much just like good old fashioned kokyu tanden ho to me.
Okay. Then I'll stick with that, since kokyu-dosa (as I learned the term for the exercise) can be a pretty good test for what I think is being discussed.

When I first "learned" kokyu-dosa, I got it all wrong and resorted to muscling and wrestling, to keep from being pushed over. I then "understood," and "relaxed" and became a push-over (as uke). This was good for a while, and my kokyu dosa did get better (as nage). However, there were those I could not move, unless they were "nice". So, with more "understanding" I realized how important both rolls (uke and nage) were in kokyu-dosa, and how similar they really were. Eventually, the same thing I was doing that made me hard to move as uke, made what I was doing as nage more effortless. I had found that when I was a "push-over", I was performing a disservice to my training partner, because what was really happening is that I had not connected (to the ground, my one-point, my partner, whatever ...), and not truly "listened".

By "relaxing" I have not become immovable or encouraged myself to resist, but I have begun to learn how to connect and listen in a more complete way. If nage can connect to me (my one-point and the ground) in the same way, someone might just think that I "tanked," as I am thrown or pushed over. But my partner and I will know that we connected, as the exercise was brought to a conclusion. What has happened through this learning process is that not only have I gotten better at this exercise (and other things), but I have been able to 'teach' kokyu-dosa with greater clarity and success.

Erick, I am not presuming to explain to you how kokyu-dosa works. I know better than that. I just wanted to convey my experiences on why I would agree that the "skills" being discussed fits nicely with my take on kokyu-dosa (or kokyu tanden ho).

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 05:41 PM   #354
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
I just wanted to convey my experiences on why I would agree that the "skills" being discussed fits nicely with my take on kokyu-dosa (or kokyu tanden ho).
The skill that is being discussed is the essence of kokyu-power. When Ushiro Sensei was demonstrating to the one class I watched at the Summer Camp, he was simply demonstrating this same power. Depending on how it's done (the amount of additives to the core power), I would refer to this skill as kokyu, kokyu-tanden, jin, whatever.

In teaching a beginner to use basic kokyu/jin, it's assuredly best to teach it statically, at first, IMO. Kokyu-ho-dosa, Reiki-no-ho, Kokyu-tanden-ho, or whatever you want to call it, is usually the first exposure that most non-Ki-Society people get to practicing this skill and I think they're the worse for not having more focused drills in this exercise.

What I often see in Kokyu-ho is that most of the experienced people in a dojo have learned to play what I call a "Kokyu-ho Game". The top dogs tend to use a short amount of power where the hips or torso, using a static jin, push up to offset Uke and then they rush into a pin or some version of a "throw and pin". They never really get down to just working that kokyu/jin path over and over and developing it. Kokyu-ho becomes a sort of ritual 5-minute exercise for everyone to play and it often seems to lead to the idea that if you move your body and transmit that power through your fixed arms, you have somehow "got it" or are "using your center". This is a large mistaken impression that I see over and over from many people who think they can "use their center" for techniques.

Regardless of a lot of extraneous discussion about Aikido philosophy, tactics, strategies, world love, universal ki, move-out-of-the-way-and-blend, "aiki", etc., it all boils down to movement/technique and the kokyu/ki power. Most particularly it boils down to being able to move with this kind of power. If I went into a Yoshinkan dojo, a Tomiki dojo, an Aikikai dojo, and a Ki-Society dojo (or other factions), I'd feel for the use of ki/kokyu power non-stop and fluidly throughout the technique.... regardless of their version of the technique or related philosophies. That's the entre'. No ki/kokyu.... No Aikido. Same thing Ushiro Sensei says. Same think Tohei Sensei implied. Same thing from other sensei's, too.

When I was as the Shaner workshop earlier this month, a reasonable number of the Ki-Society people used kokyu/ki throughout their technique. How well they did it (some were good, some not so good) is not so important. How well they used their ki in relation to me while executing their technique was not important to me either. The important thing was that they (a lot of them; some of them didn't have it and some missed it and were confused in how to bring it out) used this core skill, so I was satisfied that all the other stuff about good Aikido could be done, depending on their efforts. Once that point is reached, I don't have a problem.

There were a couple of guys who were OK in their ki skills, although I would have argued about perhaps a cleaner way to use the skills, but that argument has to come only after I acknowledge, yes, they did have ki/kokyu skills. They're "in" the right door.

I would not expect to find the same consistency of skills that the Ki-Society group had in a USAF or ASU or Yoshinkai or Tomiki, etc., dojo, based on my past experience. There *are* people within those organizations that do have ki/kokyu skills to the level where I would admit they meet the same baseline standard (or better). Usually, it's an instructor-level person in those organizations that meets (or exceeds) the baseline standard and the skills are not spread throughout the dojo. The troubling part about those other organizations is that too many of the instructor body do not have those baseline skills. That's where the problem starts and compounds, IMO. That's the problem to look at and until these skills get more widespread, it's the big crack in Aikido (trust me... it's a worse problem in western karate, taiji, and a number of other arts. Aikido has the best chance to pull it out.).

The point is to get the baseline skills out there. The idea that Aikido is bereft of these skills in the West is not totally true, but it's missing these skills across such a wide spectrum that it has become a problem.

Static testing and Kokyu-ho exercises are a good start. It's the moving with full kokyu power throughout every increment of a technique that is so importantly missed. When I was at the Shaner workshop, I had a passing thought that an experienced ASU, USAF, or whatever yudansha would simply be at a loss (in almost all cases) to shift gears and work in the mode of feeling the way through a technique to maintain kokyu through every tiny movement in a technique, without using shoulders or localized strength. There should not be that much discrepancy between organizations, IMO, because this is the *core* of Aikido. Once this baseline is met, hey..... let the variations begin and more power to them.

My opinion.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 05:52 PM   #355
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm Mike. That's Dan. He lives in Massachusetts.
Oh, yes. You "root" "ground" and "neutralize."
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=108

Apologies. Huuuuge difference.

All of your mutually expressed approaches to force manipulation tend to deny, rather than blend with, the will of the attacker. You frustrate the substance of the attack rather than using it as given. You create resistance (or just channeling ground resistance) that pretty much defines as clearcut a boundary of Aikido, as there is from O Sensei's own mouth. I have referred repeatedly to this observation of the Founder that there is "absolutely no resistance" in Aikido. You all ignore it as inconvenient to your purpose, or disregard as though the Old Man didn't know what he was saying.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
.. because you are not trying to do Aikido -- you are doing something else albeit with a related set of skills.
that statement pretty much fits you, Erick, if you read my earlier post about what Aikido is and who does it.
Oh. I didn't know you got to define what Aikido is. I just made clear what it is NOT and have continually pointed the very deep problem of resistance entailed in your approaches, from O Sensei's own words. Well, I guess we just need to appoint you Doshu by unanimous acclaim, then, and you'll set us all aright.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 06:04 PM   #356
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Oh, yes. You "root" "ground" and "neutralize."
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=108

Apologies. Huuuuge difference.
Your gracious apology is accepted with the same magnanimity that you give it.
Quote:
All of your mutually expressed approaches
I haven't "mutually" done anything, Erick.
Quote:
to force manipulation tend to deny, rather than blend with, the will of the attacker. You frustrate the substance of the attack rather than using it as given. You create resistance (or just channeling ground resistance) that pretty much defines as clearcut a boundary of Aikido, as there is from O Sensei's own mouth. I have referred repeatedly to this observation of the Founder that there is "absolutely no resistance" in Aikido. You all ignore it as inconvenient to your purpose, or disregard as though the Old Man didn't know what he was saying.
I'll say it again. You don't know what you're talking about. Besides, your "blending" idea is sort of crude, compared with the "aiki" that's been discussed by a number of people, including in the interview with Inaba I referred you to.
Quote:
Oh. I didn't know you got to define what Aikido is. I just made clear what it is NOT and have continually pointed the very deep problem of resistance entailed in your approaches, from O Sensei's own words. Well, I guess we just need to appoint you Doshu by unanimous acclaim, then, and you'll set us all aright.
No, you just need to quit making assumptions about your great intellect and understanding. Ueshiba certainly displayed episodes of the exact same "resistance" (kokyu force displays) that you say he had nothing to do with. One of you, Erick or Ueshiba, doesn't understand Aikido. Tohei displays it. Abe displays it. Sunadomari displays it. You've got some fixation about "resistance" that you can't seem to get around, even when it's evident to everyone that you've got it wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 09:20 PM   #357
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Eventually, the same thing I was doing that made me hard to move as uke, made what I was doing as nage more effortless. ... By "relaxing" I have not become immovable or encouraged myself to resist, but I have begun to learn how to connect and listen in a more complete way.
Copasetic. At least half the art is in the ukewaza.
Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Erick, I am not presuming to explain to you how kokyu-dosa works. I know better than that. I just wanted to convey my experiences on why I would agree that the "skills" being discussed fits nicely with my take on kokyu-dosa (or kokyu tanden ho).
I love hearing people describe how they envision how kokyu dosa works. It helps see the variety of imagery that can help people envision it for themselves. Mike, and the Aunkai like "six-direction springs" -- fine as far as it goes, but there are conceptual problems with those images when mapped onto real structure and dynamics. Some of them also have conceptual problems when mapped onto Aikido principles, as I have outlined.

Since you mentioned kokyu dosa I will try to illustrate how I see, in mechincal terms, the relaxed interaction you describe int hat exercise. Classic kokyu dosa or kokyu tanden ho maps better onto a rotational dynamic model mechanically. I will not elaborate the whole conceptual model in dynamic detail here. There are more generalized applications of it that I am still working out. But for the classic kokyu dosa exercise, I have worked out a short applied description according to this model.

In typical kokyu dosa, a downward rotational moment of the forearm at the wrist is applied by the partner initially. In free body rotation, this downward rotation of the forearm at the wrist is equivalent to either upward rotation of the elbow or of the fingertips.

By making a relaxed, upward kokyu rotation of the fingers of the hand at the wrist you actually counter a good deal of the downwrd moment on the forearm in-plane. You allow the wrist joint to accept some rotational moment in place of the elbow, and by actually rotating it to form that curve, the resulting moment on the arm is lessened.

This is done, not by opposing the rotation force all (as with a spring, or countering muscular leverage at the elbow), but by going with that rotation completely -- but from a shifted center, in this case beginning at the fingertips, instead of the elbow.

The natural complementary longitudinal rotation of the forearm, creates an additional eccentric, off-axis, longititudinal rotation of the forearm. That further increases the eccentricity of the applied moment on a second axis. This perpendicular componet induces rotation feedback into the attacker's connection, but off-axis -- and progressive as his applied energy converts to out-of-plane rotation, and reverts back to him.

The out-of-plane rotation frees the elbow to lift (upward rotation remember, like at the fingertips). But since we do not expose the waki, by allowing the arm to to lift outward, the natural lift of the elbow is accompanied by an extension of the arm from the body. That extension allowing the elbow to rotate up further, but to come further in line and increasing the off-axis feedback to the attacker, who is carried progressively off-line and out of center.

At a certain point of this interaction, a hinging moment forms in the attacker's elbow that his own applied resisting moment actually aggravates. His arm almost immediately collapses, at which point completion of the extension with full irimi and rotation from the tanden takes his center.

That inital interaction, writ large, and propagating the rotations from joint to joint back from the fingertips to the tanden with progressive extension at every stage is what kokyu tanden ho is, mechanically. Irimi/tenkan at every scale of the development -- manipulating centers of rotation or angular moments with eccentric complementary rotations.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 10:05 PM   #358
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Depending on how it's done (the amount of additives to the core power), I would refer to this skill as kokyu, kokyu-tanden, jin, whatever.

In teaching a beginner to use basic kokyu/jin, it's assuredly best to teach it statically, at first, IMO. Kokyu-ho-dosa, Reiki-no-ho, Kokyu-tanden-ho, or whatever you want to call it, is usually the first exposure that most non-Ki-Society people get to practicing this skill and I think they're the worse for not having more focused drills in this exercise.
See Mike. We can agree on something after all.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Kokyu-ho becomes a sort of ritual 5-minute exercise for everyone to play and it often seems to lead to the idea that if you move your body and transmit that power through your fixed arms, you have somehow "got it" or are "using your center". This is a large mistaken impression that I see over and over from many people who think they can "use their center" for techniques.
Well, well -- blow me down. A twofer.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Regardless of a lot of extraneous discussion about Aikido philosophy, tactics, strategies, world love, universal ki, move-out-of-the-way-and-blend, "aiki", etc., it all boils down to movement/technique and the kokyu/ki power.
Most particularly it boils down to being able to move with this kind of power.
... and just when we thought the trifecta was a lock -- the filly stumbles...

"Power" is a bad choice of terminology, but I'll leave that.

Kokyu tanden ho is altering the center of the dynamic without altering the dynamic itself. That requires sensitivity, for which I give you credit, on your own report, but also not working through any component of resistive or opposed force. The sneaky thing about changes of eccentricity is the very little energy that can cause a dramatic shift in a loosely connected structure. Add three axes and perpendicular components and the possibilities on non-resistive manipulation are staggering.

Changing the center of a dynamic goes well beyond the physical strategy. Aikido transcends the physical in its application, even if these principles are initially learned through the body.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I would not expect to find the same consistency of skills that the Ki-Society group had in a USAF or ASU or Yoshinkai or Tomiki, etc., dojo, based on my past experience. ... it's the big crack in Aikido ... and a number of other arts. Aikido has the best chance to pull it out.).
Started ASU, USAF, ASU, Iwama, USAF, Iwama, ASU. East Coast, West Coast, Hawaii. Kokyu ho everywhere I trained. Chiba's students, and he himself, had great things to teach on this point, even during my brief sojourn in his dojo. I learned good stuff, too. Not on your terms, apparently, but good stuff nonetheless. I have not seen the grave lack you speak of where I have trained. I have no sense that these places were particularly exceptional, since they are just where I happened to end up and was able to practice.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... Kokyu-ho exercises are a good start. It's the moving with full kokyu power throughout every increment of a technique that is so importantly missed.
And then he pulls it out at the end...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 10:46 PM   #359
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ueshiba certainly displayed episodes of the exact same "resistance" (kokyu force displays) that you say he had nothing to do with.
Kokyu tanden ho as I described it, and as Adam described it above, and as I had thought you were describing it is not resistant. And O Sensei scandalously did not teach these strength contests in his curriculum. Wonder why?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tohei displays it. Abe displays it. Sunadomari displays it.
Baiting does not become you. Of course, they display kokyu. Who said they didn't?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You've got some fixation about "resistance" that you can't seem to get around, even when it's evident to everyone that you've got it wrong.
Evident, huh? I should believe you instead of my lying eyes? It's not my fixation. Blame the Old Man. I just understand what the word "absolute" actually means.

Once again, the quote:
Quote:
O Sensei interview, from "Aikido"(1957) wrote:
We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength.
I'II note that O Sensei's admonition echoes very closely my quote above of Neoconfucian scholar Wang Yang-ming. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=315 He, similarly, counselled against the imitation of the "power" enabled through acquired wisdom as a shortcut to wisdom itself.
Quote:
Wang Yang-ming wrote:
" ...becoming a sage is ... being completely dominated by heaven-given principles, [not] seeking to become sages by means of knowledge and power...With greater increase in knowledge there came greater increase in passion; and the greater the power they attained, the more they obscured moral principles.
Hence, my continued criticism of your approach, with some backing, I might add, for my "fixation."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 11:29 PM   #360
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Erick,

Whew!
The only reason I could follow any of what you wrote is because of my familiarity with the exercise in question. Am I mistaken, or have you reduced the entire exercise to technique? I know you were trying to mechanically disect it, so that might be skewing my assumption.

So, to get back to "How to teach and train relaxation", you wouldn't use your previous kokyu tanden ho mechanical description, to teach it, would you? To someone sitting there in front of you? I'm not much of an instructor, but a fairly successful kokyu-dosa can be shown in just a couple of minutes. But this would mostly involve some technical tricks that only offer a glimpse at what lies beneath, as I'm sure you would agree. For the purposes of this forum, and more specifically this thread, wouldn't it be helpful to offer some pointers in performing this exercise to help acquire proper relaxation?

Here's what works for me (for starters).
For nage:
  1. No sudden movements. If you have to "surprise" your uke, perhaps you're not as "relaxed" as you thought. Oddly enough, when done correctly, uke will be surprised, even when they know it's coming.
  2. Try the exercise as slowly and as smoothly as you can.
  3. If something stops/gets stopped, something else can move.
  4. Can you, in turn, be pushed over at any moment? All the way to, and after the "pin"?
  5. You should really not have to resort to anything that resembles "strength".
  6. Let uke grab your wrists however they like. Soft/hard, under/over, close/wide, or even trapped to your thighs (that one's fun!)
  7. Uke is not a "jerk" (for the most part ). If they are resisting, just put them out of their misery and throw them!
For uke:
  1. "Relax"! It's just a "ki test". or ...
  2. ... see #5 under "nage".
  3. If you begin to feel resistance, don't hold your breath.
  4. Are you fighting? Remember, this is not a competition.
  5. The cords on the side of your neck should not be protruding through the top of your gi.
  6. Do you:
    a) "feel" as though you are resisting, or ...
    b) "feel" as though nage is getting in their own way, giving you more stability.

    If your answer is "b)", just throw nage and put them out of their misery.
    Either way, you still might be a "jerk".

    Perception is everything.

Feel free to add or subtract, depending on your skill level.

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 01:08 AM   #361
James Young
Location: Orange County, CA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
And if you train not to be moved -- you are exercising a will "not to be moved," which is just another way of saying "resisting" the opponent's desire that I do move. And that is very problematic to me if posited as being some lost "root" of Aikido, since it is counter to some very direct statements on this point by O Sensei, (as well as my own experience in the traditions of several of his deshi, but upon which I put far less weight).
If that's the case then I wonder if O-sensei realized he wasn't doing aikido when this film was shot:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yxxb2ctul...ihei%20Ueshiba

Starting at about 1:55 in he demonstrates his immovabilty from both a head push (sounds like one of the tests that Dan described but I think he specified standing) and then later his immovable jo. Since he does publically demonstrate this aspect as part of aikido and many of his deshi visible in the film witnessed it, it leads me to believe that quotes of him and his deshi which allude to avoiding resistance are not necessarily referring to these skills in particular, but rather other forms of resistance which are common responses to an opponent's attack. Just my opinion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 05:22 AM   #362
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Kuroda Testuzan writes in his books about the training of "floating body" in iai/ken/jujutsu practice, and how seated practice is a quicker route to learning than standing, by virtue of making the use of normal strength even more awkward and in many cases impossible. He then notes that when one has obtained the body to do the "floating body" which is very very light, it is just the same to then make oneself heavy or immoveable. Thus, there is no contradiction between being either light or immoveable when one considers the training that is required in order to as a side effect be able to manifest either one or the other.

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 12-28-2006 at 05:25 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 05:50 AM   #363
Mark Jakabcsin
Dojo: Charlotte Systema, Charlotte, NC
Location: Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 207
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Gernot,
Are Kuroda Sensei's books available in English? To me he was a jaw dropper at the Expo a few years ago.

Mark J.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 06:38 AM   #364
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Ah, sorry, don't think so. I've sent volume 1 to Robert John, he's a master at extracting the pithy comments that I missed :-) I'm on volume 2, and there's a volume 3 too. It's about the training of a bujutsu body for ki/ken/body unity. I could try to summarize parts of it but I wouldn't be doing the contents justice at my level of ability. I'm happy to answer questions privately though or on a different thread if there is interest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 07:37 AM   #365
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Am I mistaken, or have you reduced the entire exercise to technique?
That was my impression, too, but I didn't comment because it was pretty obvious.

The exercise is "Kokyu-ho" or even better, "Kokyu-Tanden-ho". It works the Kokyu and the Tanden (from the Chinese word "Dantien"). The Tanden is the area that as you develop it, it changes you. That's why the breathing exercises all go first to the Tanden/Dantien and why so many exercises focus on strengthening the Tanden. The "One Point", "Hara", "Center", etc., all refer to this same area for those basic reasons.

To cut to the chase, this basic Kokyu exercise is meant to develop kokyu, the middle, and the hips/upper-thighs to some extent (suwari techniques are meant to do this last even more).

"Kokyu" generally refers to the forces that you manipulate with your mind. Its essence is the "jin" I keep referring to; there are a couple of other important components, but that's a side issue to this discussion.

Here's a picture I borrowed for the moment from Karl Friday's nice book about the Kashima-Shinryu in order to show their version of kokyu-ho.
http://www.neijia.com/KokyuHo.jpg

There are a number of versions of "the right way to do Kokyu Ho", but you have to always ask yourself, "What is the main intent of this drill or technique?". I usually shorten that down to "what's really going on here?", but it is the question I constantly ask myself when I watch someone do a drill or technique.

The reason I used the illustration from Dr. Friday's book (buy it so he won't sue me for copyright infringement) was to show a somewhat more straightforward approach to what is really the main purpose.

The main purpose is to teach someone how to use kokyu force, the essential method of movement/power in Aikido and most other Asian arts when done beyond the amateur level. Anything other than that practice is extraneous to a basic Kokyu-Tanden-ho.

The title says it is kokyu practice; it is. For all practical purposes, I could kneel in front of a wall with one of those large inflatable exercise-balls on top of my hands which are resting on my thighs, and then lift up and into the wall slowly, keeping a pure kokyu force (not strength) going from my hips throught the ball to the wall. It's the same basic practice, if you cut to the heart of the exercise.

Is it "resistance"? Sure. O'Sensei didn't develop his great physical strength by never using resistance to train with.... that's a completely absurd and off-base interpretation of "Aikido". O-Sensei had specially heavy garden implements made for him, used an iron bokken, etc., etc. Weight is resistance. Neither your normal strength nor your kokyu strength can increase if you don't gradually increase resistance. Actual waza should avoid resistance; exercises are not waza, even though some people try to make them so.

Personally, I don't use kokyu-training since I do essentially the same sort of training while standing on my legs (training them at the same time) and mixing in other elements. But the principles are the same and you'd see it if you watched me and evaluated "what is he really doing?".

There's a key to relaxing that is critical, but no one has even come close to mentioning it. So I'm not. At the moment, I'd just suggest that to do this right is going to take a good teacher, not a description on a web forum.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 07:47 AM   #366
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Consider this my statement of interest :>

There is an excellent interview with Kuroda S. at aikido journal, where he speaks of how kata developed the body you speak of. I'm sure it's been linked here before...if I can find it I'll link it again.

Best,
Ron (Hi Mark, good thread!)
Link as promised...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ghlight=kuroda

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-28-2006 at 07:57 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 08:08 AM   #367
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Speaking of body movement. Review any....any of Ueshiba in motion. Watch him, then watch his ukes. Why......do they move differently?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HYUTRSvWc...ihei%20Ueshiba

Why are you guys not even trying to start to think about why?

The light body is connected- in the same way the heavy body is. There is no difference. With weapons the need to move with connection becomes heightened and immediate. Moving with intent, with the entire body moving as a whole is both quicker and safer. Where leaving parts of you behind will literrally result in parts of you being left behind

With Kuroda we are once again seeing pieces of the same truth hidden in plain site. WIth dullards arguing every step of the way. True believers, are good students. Leave them alone. They make good ukes. For the rest keep looking wire frame the motions between Ueshiba and his ukes. What would it look like if they were both doing the same thing and moving the same way?
It would not be Aikido as you know it.
The uke would not be extending forward with pieces of himself all over the place. He would not need to be "extended" to deliver power. Therefore drawing him out would be a significant challenge. Further were he to be drawn out he would move in an entirely different way with his body connected he would move as a unit and simply be in balance....over there a little. Trying to get him to fall down would be quite challenge.
Aiki- would thus be fullfiled. Aiki as a do would be realized.
The way it is typically done is to have one over extend in his attack, move with a broken disconnected body that is tailor made to be led and to follow.
The reason so many IN aikido baulk at these sorts of statements is true connection in oneself is so rarely taught or trained. Folks may take offense at that as well but any review of the many videos availble are the truths of what Japanese Aiki is...staring at back you from the grave. Map a wire frame of movement over photos of Shioda over Ueshiba, over Sagawa over Takeda. Take a look at Kuroda. At Otake. Ask yourself if you could take that center?

Guys letting their bodies be led around flopping like fish are not even in the same art form. Just playthings. You won't ever get there. Ever. You need to stop, think, and re-set. Re-wire you. Rework you. Start to dare to even begin.. to start to think... you too can be unthrowable. Find ways to learn how to make that happen.
Continuing to be uke and think like an uke will make you forever an uke and low level. No matter who tells you different. Mastery of you leads to mastery. You won't get there learning ways to fall down better. That's just more ways to make good students.
I think its perfectly hilarious that in "Aikido, the masters course" Shioda (another Daito ryu guy) outlines a clear direction of where to go. Doesn't tell anyone a damn thing about actually how to do these things. Just waves one, big, red flag, for the intelligent that he is in fact doing things ...different. Were you actually to learn ways to do what he says- he coudn't throw YOU. More great advice, sitting on the shelf of the kid who goes to practive to learn to cooperate and fall down.
Truth from the grave.

Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 08:28 AM   #368
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

The only I'd make to the notion of sitting is that it is not a requirement. It is just an easier way if you choose it. Why?

Its a great equalizer.
1. Its a shorter path to the ground with less support intereference.
2. Short, lighter people don't have to move as much mass.
3. Taller people can get under easier
4. Its easier to not isolate-fire muscle groups. as you have eliminated some from the mix.
5. You can teach much the same idea in ground fighting positions like the guard and the mount and side mount. Oops.. that may be too much for the Art-in-a-box crowd to absorb.

Back to skirts, silk pajamas, cultural imagery, and things
Peng jin...the one jin, is aiki-age. As such they are universal in the true start of power. The other ways come later to folks with a curiosity to start on step one. The power and connection in you in suwari waza is not in a hand shape or elbow shape or certain motion. Those are ways to manipulate a connection and are shown way to often to beginners. IMO. They should never even be taught to beginners. Once shown, the less talented attach themselves to them and start doing..................technique. And never learn the true way.

These skills bring the best of all possible potentials to Aikido and to anything else for that matter. But particularly with Aikido. They are important-even essential, since the techniques and the framework of them were designed around these skills.
Without these you have no hope of standing against someone who trains them.

Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 08:47 AM   #369
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
The only reason I could follow any of what you wrote is because of my familiarity with the exercise in question. Am I mistaken, or have you reduced the entire exercise to technique? I know you were trying to mechanically disect it, so that might be skewing my assumption.
I am pleased that you did understand it, as that confirms for me that this approach has some validity, and that I can breakit down in termns simple enough to uderstand if you have felt it. And no I have not reduced it to technique --you are correct about the mechanical dissection. I only did it because you DID indicate familiarity with what is occurring. The same would not be appropriate for a newbie until they have also felt the interaction a few times -- any more than deep discussion of ki and kokyu is going have any possible meaning to a student at that stage.

The physical parts of what is going on have two components, one mechanical, which I have addressed, the other dealing with sensation and control, which I have not addressed directly. The description is about WHAT occurs in a successful applciaiton, not HOW you go about making it happen, much less WHO is "making" anything happen, and still less, WHY. Knowing what occurs allows better focus of the mind on refining particular aspects of sensation and control, and that allows you follow those sensations according the identified principle of action to produce the same effects in slightly different settings.
Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
So, to get back to "How to teach and train relaxation", you wouldn't use your previous kokyu tanden ho mechanical description, to teach it, would you? To someone sitting there in front of you? I'm not much of an instructor, but a fairly successful kokyu-dosa can be shown in just a couple of minutes.
Sure. But teaching one rudimentary way to do it does not teach the principle that is being applied. A student must always be shown and feel the interaction. But given a sound principle that the student is better able to understand and envision -- together with one or several perspectives of "feel" -- allows the mind to extend the applciation of those principles to perspectives of feel in all variations of attack and response that are possible in kokyu dosa exercise, and in Aikido technique generally.

Ki/Kokyu serve well in this regard for those who natively leanr them or take the time to learn the root concepts thoroughly. My approach is not a criticism of the traditional system I just firmly beleive that the West is not without an ability to express those same concetps in its own idiom, and therefore to broaden the terms of reference for discussing the principles of action in Aikido. So far as I have been able to tell, no one else has seriously tried. I hope that I am mistaken but I beeen looking at these issues for some time now, and nothing has come to hand. So I started from scratch, always keeping a reference actual techniques taught in the lineages I have experience in and to O Sensei's statements in their native context.
Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
But this would mostly involve some technical tricks that only offer a glimpse at what lies beneath, as I'm sure you would agree.
I am sure you would also agree that physics is not a technical trick.
Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
For the purposes of this forum, and more specifically this thread, wouldn't it be helpful to offer some pointers in performing this exercise to help acquire proper relaxation?

Here's what works for me (for starters).
What struck me in your list, which is good, is that it is largely negating instruction: "Not" or "Don't"

For nage: Not sudden ... not jerky ... don't stop.. don't be pushed over...
don't resort to strength ... don't force a particular grab ...

For uke: Don't worry... don't use strength ... don;t fight ... don't pop a vein ... don't resist ...

Conversely, I am working on affirmative description of physically valid mechanics of the interaction to supplement the necessary negative corrections. That way a student has a perceptible goal to strive for, rather than merely a maze of repeated negating instruction. That can be very frustrating, and creates its own potentailly bad training environment if the student does not understand the purpose of the instruction or the ultimate goal it serves.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:01 AM   #370
Michael Young
 
Michael Young's Avatar
Dojo: Alamo City Aikido
Location: San Antonio, TX
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 133
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Learning good Ukemi is not about learning how to fall down...learning good ukemi is about being responsive.
I'm not arguing that you should train a bad habit of throwing yourself off-balance and not moving unified. Nor am I arguing that the solo/internal type of training many are advocating needs improvement and re-evaluation in the Aikido world...I'm right on page with you there. My views on individual solo training have changed drastically over the last year or so, thanks in part to this forum and my exposure to people like Ushiro etc...I'm sold. However, how can anyone learn Aikido if nobody falls down I wonder? I know that this isn't exactly what your advocating, but at the same time I believe there is some inherent and important value in learning proper ukemi. I think a balance of skills is necessary for actually training in martial responsiveness...internal strength is not the only skill set needed in Aikido, it is one part of it (arguably the most important part as it does relate to everything else and is probably the hardest thing to develop correctly). Relating it back to the topic of this thread, relaxation is a very important part of learning internal skills; it is also a very important part of ukemi. Connectedness during moving is important too, rather it be as uke or nage, and its totally impossible to achieve it without correct relaxation. Most of O'Sensei's favorite ukes have also come to be known as some of the best teachers now...the guys who "got it". There must have been some reason for that. I don't think of ukemi training as training myself TO fall down, but instead HOW to save myself when necessary. Because, as good as you may get at internal strength someone is always better, or luckier, and training yourself not be sensitive as to when you are open and had better move is a big mistake.

Perhaps many wouldn't see this as germane, but In the grander scheme of things (i.e. stuff that applies "outside of the dojo") there are some very valuable lessons to be learned from ukemi. Heck, at a really base level, I hear more stories of Aikido-applied-in-real-life from an ukemi basis. "I tripped over my dog, and totally surprised myself by just instinctively taking a roll, didn't get a scratch" type stories, as opposed to the number of times I've heard about folks getting into street fights or muggings and using their skills.

Back to lurking and enjoying the thread (and the petty arguments too, we all like a little soap-opera now and then).

-Mike

Last edited by Michael Young : 12-28-2006 at 09:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:24 AM   #371
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
James Young wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
And if you train not to be moved -- you are exercising a will "not to be moved," which is just another way of saying "resisting" the opponent's desire that I do move.
If that's the case then I wonder if O-sensei realized he wasn't doing aikido when this film was shot:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yxxb2ctul...ihei%20Ueshiba

Starting at about 1:55 in he demonstrates his immovabilty from both a head push (sounds like one of the tests that Dan described but I think he specified standing) and then later his immovable jo.
.. and yet again the video offered to rebut me, proves my point in several ways. First, it was a demonstration -- not a class. That is the chief complaint by the "skills" folks, that he showed nifty tricks that he did not teach his students to do in his classes. They want the shortcut power and the knowledge, as I have intimated, not the wisdom that it flows from.

"Immovability" "Not moving?" Look closer, my friend. Why was his head doing these nifty little sagittal plane rotations and forward extensions, alternately extending his neck, lifting and dropping his chin slightly in response to the pushes? You even see him do quite clearly once in the close-up. Pretty much letting himself "be moved," just not in the way they wanted him to move.

That is directly cognate to the wrist flexion/rotation mechanics in the kokyu dosa exercise that I illustrated above. And to complete the throw he lets the center of that same sagittal plane rotational moment shift to his center, as I have described in the kokyu dosa example, sitting him up erect, he shakes his head and they fall away.

The jo trick immediately following is much the same. He initially leads them forward (the way they want the jo to go) and then extends across them perpendicularly with a distinct hip turn, placing all four of them into a slight kuzushi in the shikaku away from him, by applied moment at the end of their own arms.

He has several iterations of extending his arm in seigan forward extension (a rotation from the torso, and back again in a small giri cut rotation) to shift their attempts to recover balance right back into shikaku from the perpendicular axis. All of this is, again, directly cognate with the kokyu dosa description I gave. The significant difference with the "jo trick" is that he is off-axis to begin with.

The high degree of art demonstrated is in the sensitivity and degree of control over those mechanics. But that flows from his mastery of those principles innately, not from power -- of any kind.

As Galileo said:
"Il muove." "He moves."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:25 AM   #372
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Yea I understand, but how long should it take to learn to roll and fall down? I mastered those skills long ago.

I get the whole dynamic of ukemi and the nage/uke relationship. Also that Aikido is designed primarily to teach principles. got it.

Also, Ukemi done the way I was taught is about self preservation and recovery to a position of dominance and balance again.

It ain't about bailing out or falling down or tanking done correctly.

In BJJ we typically start one person in a dominant and one person in a submissive role and then say go. No issues there.


I think though at some point we need to deal more with non-compliant ukes where the dominant/submissive role is not so clear cut. That said, many at that point say, whoa...we are getting too competitive and what are we really learning? How to struggle and use strength.

Maybe so, maybe not. Maybe we are learning how to confront reality and to fight through this to a point of relaxation and balance where we can once again learn to apply the principles. I don't know.

I see Dan's point though, if you are simply learning how to fall down, that ain't gonna help you grow. That is not how I typically do ukemi though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:32 AM   #373
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:

Back to lurking and enjoying the thread (and the petty arguments too, we all like a little soap-opera now and then).

-Mike
I don't. And here, its a distraction. Rarely, have I read so much functionally uselss advice in such loooong posts.

Anyway
Regarding Ukemi, I can't be clearer than I have been here and in the Ueshiba and Ukemi thread. I haven't advocated what you have referred to and have included every condition you named.
Then you yourself make my point. If someone doesn't fall down how can you have Aikido?
There's two answers.
Aikido as we know it?
or the way of Aiki
Aikido as we know it....You can't.
The way of Aiki? Absoloutly.
Were two masters of Aiki power to meet... not a lot would happen
What would Shioda and Ueshiba look like as masters?
What would it look like were Sagawa and Takeda have challenged each other later in life?
A Japanese version of Push hands.
Do you suppose, for even one second, either one would be chasing a hand of the other guy in a circle? As a picture- its as ludicrous as any of you doing it. Stop thinking of being less than them.
Challenge their model to you. Walk in their example. Work on you.
When does a student stop his teacher in his tracks and realize he has to leave to move forward? When does your growth necessitate a change in direction. A need to start looking for a way to power and non-cooperation that leads to the ultimate cooperation of resolving In-Yo.

1. Learning to fall down is simple and can be taught directly. We all need to learn it and do it. .....OK done!
2. The "art" of falling and training to exhaustion to... fall down. Makes you good at losing. Its stupid and embarrassing for a man to do.
3. Learning to fall while attacking and still continuing the fight and winning-harder still and more worthwhile.
4. Learning to stand....... is a life long study.

The true "art" of Ukemi was what Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, and Shioda were doing in exhibiting their ability to handle attacks.
Not in falling down.
Many of these arts are "having us on" and bringing us through a protracted overly-long weeding out process of selection. And not teaching us the true way.
We need to stop thinking like the good little student being spoon fed.
As Sagawa said.
"I'm showing you!.....Think!!"
Theres nothing more I can say.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2006 at 09:47 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 09:49 AM   #374
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
There is an excellent interview with Kuroda S. at aikido journal, where he speaks of how kata developed the body you speak of. I'm sure it's been linked here before...if I can find it I'll link it again.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ghlight=kuroda
Thanks Ron.

From the article, and re the kokyu dosa exercise discussion:
Quote:
Tetsuzan Kuroda wrote:
Generally speaking, a technique where the opponent is sent flying "when one merely extends his hand" is considered to be a secret technique, but it is nothing more than slightly extending one's arm in an unusual movement when the opponent is mainly executing normal movements. That type of movement where you lightly extend your arm will have no effect on someone trained in true martial arts.
Anyone who does kokyu dosa properly learns to be able to redirect things with relative lightness and ease as uke just as well as nage, even to the point, as Adam says, of possibly "being a jerk" -- not by "not moving" -- but by moving differently.

I would submit that by doing his jo trick and various "push" demonstrations O Sensei realized its ego temptation, both for advertising purposes, to entice students (the man had an art to promote, remember), but also the dangers of actually teaching those tricks to students because of the equal ego temptations to learn to "be a jerk." The puerile "Hah!" "Gotcha!" moments are deeply antithetical to development in the principles of Aikido as I have received them. They provoke the resistive mind and its power hunger. Maybe I missed something and I am supposed to "be a jerk," but I really don't think so. Maybe I succeeded (failed), anyway.

I think it is a fascinating confirmaiton of the reasonableness of such a concern, to see that the ego power trip temptation lives on long after he is gone, in students not even born until he had passed..

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 10:05 AM   #375
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Thanks Ron.
The puerile "Hah!" "Gotcha!" moments are deeply antithetical to development in the principles of Aikido as I have received them. They provoke the resistive mind and its power hunger. Maybe I missed something and I am supposed to "be a jerk," but I really don't think so. Maybe I succeeded (failed), anyway.

I think it is a fascinating confirmaiton of the reasonableness of such a concern, to see that the ego power trip temptation lives on long after he is gone, in students not even born until he had passed..
If "Jerks" and "ego power trips" are an indication of resisting and stopping the spears-the very definition of Budo, then I'm in good company. The passive agressive players can end up where they belong-on the floor looking up.

Even for the gentle pretenders the fact that they are in an art that teaches them to control someone is an indicator of two things.
One, there is, even in cooperation, an intent to control. One can call it misdirect or lead or whatever they wish. They are in the mix by their presence on the mat. the true passive-agressive.
Two, they have agreed to train to affect and attackers attack.

Thus.they have resisted the attacking mind by agreeing to alter it.
The rest of the argument is about levels of violence and levels of skill to control it. And some being fundementally more at peace and honest with themselves about pursuing it to higher levels.

Being called a jerk by practicing to resist- puts me in very good company-like the founders of Aikido. Who actively practiced reistence.
Not being fooled into following what he "said", and becoming a perpectual training dummy...but rather what he "did"...and learning to defeat and control an opponents agression is good for us.

****************************

Shihan quoted in AIkido Journal:
It is clear the way Aikido is practiced today that the only peaceful resolution to conflict these people will see ...is that when they are lying unconscious at the feet of their opponent."

Sagawa"
I had to change /adjust my training methodology. The training needed to strengthen the parts needed for Aiki is different from "Normal" training. However, if you are passionate enough you'll realize what this means, since I drop hints on how to train during our normal practice.
It is more important to strengthen the body than seek flexibility. No matter how flexible you make the body there is no point if it is weak. Making the body flexible AFTER you strengthen it is a different story altogether…Strengthening your body will bring about a "sharpness" to your technique.

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2006 at 10:20 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wayne and Mike's Thread Gwion Open Discussions 8 12-23-2006 02:30 PM
Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06 Mike Sigman General 34 12-19-2006 08:21 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate