Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2006, 12:57 PM   #26
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Wow! Now I'm totally confused which thread to post this response to.

I don't have a problem so much with an expansive description such as "Ki of the Universe", "become one with the universe", or "center of the universe", to describe some lofty end-state. However, what's my point of reference? How do I know if I'm really one with the universe? Is it because I'm difficult to push off balance? Is that all it takes? I can do that if someone was to just tell me, "hey, I'm going to push you here on the shoulder, but don't step back." A five year old (and most adults) would probably just look at you glassy-eyed, if you told them they would be more stable, if they just relaxed and condensed the universe at their one-point. So anyway, I'm giving my five year old a 'ki' test the other day. It went like this:

"Come here sweety! I'm going to push you on the shoulder, and you just stand there (no, stop bouncing, just stand there, please)."
I barely start to push and she stumbles back, looking like a bobbled-head doll.

"No, no. Don't let me push you back. I'm not going to push hard." This time as I push, she leans in with her head down and shoulders up. Her body is 'tense'.

"Hmmm ... okay, this time have a giraffe neck." She basically knows this as code for 'stand up straight,' from her ballet class. But she is also trying to actually make her neck longer. This brings her shoulders down and helps her focus on keeping her posture, instead of 'pushing' back. Viola! Suddenly she feels 'relaxed' and stable, as I push against her shoulder.

"Yeah! High Five!"

She then skips off, as I call back to her,
"We'll work on 'the ki of the universe' when you're six!"

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 01:30 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
I don't have a problem so much with an expansive description such as "Ki of the Universe", "become one with the universe", or "center of the universe", to describe some lofty end-state. However, what's my point of reference? How do I know if I'm really one with the universe? Is it because I'm difficult to push off balance? Is that all it takes? I can do that if someone was to just tell me, "hey, I'm going to push you here on the shoulder, but don't step back." A five year old (and most adults) would probably just look at you glassy-eyed, if you told them they would be more stable, if they just relaxed and condensed the universe at their one-point.
Hi Adam:

I hope I didn't waste all that discussion on how a push to the chest, in the normal Ki-test scenario, actually derives its "resistance" from the ground. In other words, there is a "path" from the point where Uke pushes the chest to the ground that can be tracked. But... don't throw out the "Ki of the Universe" just yet. I'll try to get to that, because actually it makes sense if you have a feel for the old perspectives of Ki/qi.

In a very real sense, all the tests that were done at Shaner Sensei's workshop connected the student to either the ground or to his feet. Emphasis was made on the point of ALL of the student being connected, not just a narrow segment/portion of the student, so there were exercises where the whole body turned, moved, etc., and the outlying parts of the body weren't affected (too much, if done correctly) by resistance from "testers".

It's this idea of the whole body being relaxedly connected while turning, moving, etc., that you should focus on. If you push someone's chest and yet the ground receives most of the force, it takes a relaxed "connection" of the body to transmit the pushing force to the ground. It also takes the mind arranging the lines of the connection (the jin/kokyu-force lines), but let's stay focused on that connection and just note that there is the ability within the connection to establish different lines of pull, push, etc.

In turning while someone is holding you, in dropping down and allowing the weight from your center to be at the underside of your arms, and so forth, the connection is also paramount. This is the Ki. This is the Ki that is developed/strengthened with breathing exercises, herbs to the skin, diet, mood, etc. This is the Ki that has to do with the fascia/mind part of the body. This is the Ki that draws its power from the ground and from the gravity pulling the center of gravity (and a couple of other things, but I'm trying to stay simple). The Ki was considered to draw it's power from the Ki of Heaven and the Ki of Earth, because of this relationship to the ground support and the pull of gravity. We are like creatures somewhere in between Heaven and Earth, because of this. And this relationship holds true for the natural laws that hold the universe together. Does that give a better feel for how the "Universal Ki" was considered to pertain to this? Tohei blends some other stuff in, but he's not far from the older traditional view, in reality.

Akuzawa's exercises, which are part of a large corpus of similar exercises from China, focuses on enhancing your power by stretching and differentiating along the axes of the body.... what it should be stretching is not the muscle, but that same "connection", the Ki.

Shaner Sensei's exercises were good exercises that covered the basic points in a good way for beginners, but my personal opinion is that a little more clarity and exposition would help everyone.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 02:39 PM   #28
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I hope I didn't waste all that discussion on how a push to the chest, in the normal Ki-test scenario, actually derives its "resistance" from the ground.
Did you think it was somehow lost on me? That was demonstrated to me the first time someone gave me a 'ki test' and my back heel dug into the mat.
Quote:
But... don't throw out the "Ki of the Universe" just yet.
Had I done that?
Quote:
It's this idea of the whole body being relaxedly connected while turning, moving, etc., that you should focus on.
I'm assuming you meant "you" in the general sense. As it happens, that is what I'm working on, and will continue to.

Since you were asking for a discussion on what is happening in the ki exercises, I thought I'd start out with an anecdote. Mostly in response to part of what brought you back to this thread:
Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
let go mentally, relax, let go physically, relax, and become one with (or realize the oneness already there) the universe. You are the universe and it is you, moving, breathing, relaxed, powerful, in contention with nothing or no one. At peace in unified movement.
Where as I like the sentiment, and there is actually much to learn from it, it gets lost on what someone has to work through before they can begin to understand it.
Quote:
Shaner Sensei's exercises were good exercises that covered the basic points in a good way for beginners, but my personal opinion is that a little more clarity and exposition would help everyone.
Wish I was there. And I agree with the clarity part. The crude ki test with my daughter was my way to illustrate how some simple steps can go a long way. In any case, I've given her a year before I spring the 'Ki of the Universe' on her.

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2006, 09:22 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Did you think it was somehow lost on me? That was demonstrated to me the first time someone gave me a 'ki test' and my back heel dug into the mat.
"Back heel"??? I had to do it with my feet parallel. You wuss! With your feet parallel, as was done in Shaner Sensei's workshop, you can get down to the nitty-gritty of where you are sourcing your power PDQ.

I was thinking that I'm not totally clear on how "soft" some of the tension guys are (I'm not sure I want to know.... I've already been through this a few times and experience tells me....... ), but I'd suggest that regardless, it might be worthwhile for people to take a look at Akuzawa's stuff (from what Dan is posting, he's using some of Akuzawa's exercises or close to, but all that's unclear), some of Ushiro's stuff, but also no one should hesitate to go to a Ki Society workshop which does an overview of the basic principles (as Shaner's workshop did). Understanding that all of these "different approaches" are actually all working from the same basic principles means that they can get a 3-dimensional picture of the whole beast. It's a complex beast and few approaches cover all facets of it.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 10:43 PM   #30
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Back heel"??? I had to do it with my feet parallel.
That's what you get for going to a workshop...
Quote:
You wuss!
Yeah ... So?
Quote:
With your feet parallel, as was done in Shaner Sensei's workshop, you can get down to the nitty-gritty of where you are sourcing your power PDQ.
As you probably already know, the standard ki test allows for a hanmi posture (helpful for a wuss like me). But yes, a parallel stance is a great way to train with front and back tests, while the 'strong' hanmi posture is good with side tests. Each revealing their own strengths and weaknesses.

In class today, we practiced giving and receiving ki tests while in seiza. We only worked on testing from the side -- a 'soft' push straight through the side of the shoulder. The practice centered on 'matching' and not trying to 'pass' the test.

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2006, 11:07 PM   #31
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Adam
This is great reading about this. Thanks.
Of course these tests mentioned here are the very basics.
How does it escalate with rank and training?

What are some of the uses for your ki training in dynamic play that would differentiate it from general Aikido in your opinion?
Do you guys go outside of the art and practice with others and ask them to mix it up and test yourself?
Thanks for anything you can share.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-17-2006 at 11:22 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 04:19 AM   #32
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
In class today, we practiced giving and receiving ki tests while in seiza. We only worked on testing from the side -- a 'soft' push straight through the side of the shoulder. The practice centered on 'matching' and not trying to 'pass' the test.
Hi Adam,

I don't know how far you have taken this particular ki test, but you can have some real fun with this one My explanations below are not a how to do, rather a description of what..

the basic soft test ftom the side tests co-ordination,
the next step is a sustained soft push (I think what you are describing), we deal with this by accepting the push (before it becomes physical) and directing it down through the one point down on into the floor. The pusher can then increase the intensity of their push and all of the effect is dissipaited downwards.
The next level, is accepting the push from uke before they get to you and using your fore finger as a pointer to lead and re direct all their force back towards their feet(back foot), once they have made contact they have trouble keeping solid contact, their back foot ends up slipping.
Higher and more difficult levels involve doing similar with a pusher/uke who is taking a run up to bowl you over with a double handed push, and hardest of all when the pushes are feigned / pulled at the last moment only to be replaced by a strong shock like push from close quarters. These higher levels come into our dan grade practice.

I have a feeling that these exercises are similar in flavour to what Dan might be doing?

I love all the various ki tests/developement exercises that we practice, I have been shown literally hundreds of them, and I can't imagine aikido without them. In fact I see aikido as dynamic ki developement exercises. My own practice is to maintain solid co-ordination, under the greater dynamic stress provided by ever higher grade attackers.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 08:11 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
As you probably already know, the standard ki test allows for a hanmi posture (helpful for a wuss like me). But yes, a parallel stance is a great way to train with front and back tests, while the 'strong' hanmi posture is good with side tests. Each revealing their own strengths and weaknesses.
I guess the point I'd emphasize is that if someone pushed you, then me, then Ushiro Sensei or whoever, the essential body mechanics for being stable will be the same. I'd bet that when Joe pushed on me at the workshop, he may have been slightly surprised that a "white-belt" could do it, but I'll be that he didn't think to himself, "Oh Nooooooooooo..... this is some entirely new form of force!!" Because it wasn't. Joe recognized by the feel that I was stable, as the test required, and that was that.... the basic mechanics were the same. And incidentally, this stability force is the essence of "kokyu" force and it's what I refer to as "jin", or "trained force skill". Granted, there is something more that would make it full-blown kokyu, but that's extraneous to the current discussion.

Part of the point I'm driving at is that regardless of whether you think "Ki of the Universe" and I think "jin" and someone else thinks "nei jin" or "groundpath" or whatever... it's all the same force. True there are variations in terms of skill-levels, the amount of muscle used in conjunction, the amount of "ki" used in conjunction, and so so, but it is at core all the same thing.

Next you have to learn to move with it and move so that the hara controls this power (this is where a lot of guys with great demonstration jin skills peel off... they use jin only sporadically, as they need it, for demonstrations, etc.). It's all going to be the same core principles, even if the variations on those principles begin to diverge. The way I push someone with "kokyu" power may be different by quite a bit from the way Shaner Sensei pushes someone, but if we analyze it to the core principles, I'm dead sure those will be the same.

So, the question is..... regardless of the naming conventions, the belief in "Ki of the Universe" or "The Kami Did It" or whatever, can everyone accept that we're all talking about one basic set of principles?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2006, 05:28 PM   #34
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Hi, Dan.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Adam
This is great reading about this. Thanks.
Of course these tests mentioned here are the very basics.
Well, we never stop working on the basics.
Quote:
How does it escalate with rank and training?
Depends on if you're referring to training for the ki test, the actual test itself or using the test as a tool in training? The short answer is, it stays the same, but becomes more challenging. Sorry to be kinda' cryptic. I'll try to be more specific, when I can get a moment.
Quote:
What are some of the uses for your ki training in dynamic play that would differentiate it from general Aikido in your opinion?
I haven't sampled enough of other styles to give an informed reply on that one. My workload and family commitments keeps me close to home. My limited time is spent on one dojo and at-home training.
Quote:
Do you guys go outside of the art and practice with others and ask them to mix it up and test yourself?
Like I said, I don't get out much. Other students from our dojo visit other styles on occasion and we have a couple of students that experiment with bjj. Our head instructor has been around a bit and trained with practioners of other styles/arts. My exposure to other styles/arts is with those who come to our dojo. I don't go out of my way to 'test' myself with strangers, other than to train with them as I would anyone else in the dojo. I'm not sure that I could say that I do much of the testing ('mixing it up') you're referring to. Although, I feel that I'm testing myself all the time.
Quote:
Thanks for anything you can share.
Well, it doesn't feel like I've offered much, yet. Like I said, I need to revisit some of your questions.

thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 08:21 AM   #35
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki-Society Workshop in Denver, Dec 06

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Well, we never stop working on the basics.

Depends on if you're referring to training for the ki test, the actual test itself or using the test as a tool in training? The short answer is, it stays the same, but becomes more challenging. Sorry to be kinda' cryptic. I'll try to be more specific, when I can get a moment.
I think any approach to Ki-mechanics is better than none. And obviously somehow the boat got missed by a lot of Aikido experts, so I'd say scramble on where you can.... but the approach through the Ki-Society, while not being all that clear and focused IMO, is probably more along the lines that Ueshiba would espouse. The "soft" approach, with conditioning addenda, is probably more the approach of the art, although the "harder" approach with tensions and axes can be inbounds to some extent. Ushiro Sensei's approach through Sanchin is not the same as the softer approach, BTW, and without getting into a complex discussion, I'd offer the thought that there are pro's and con's to each approach.

The most important thing, IMO, is for people to begin to get an idea of what the kokyu and ki forces actually are. Most people only have a vague (and often surprsingly wrong) idea, even at the higher dan levels in a lot of Aikido. Still, something is better than nothing.

The key point is using the hara/one-point.... I know a lot of people who have some jin/kokyu skills who are *far* off the full concept of using the hara. I would suggest, that keeping an eye on that aspect as a gauge would be a good idea. But other than that, go for it.

The Ki Society curriculum is very much worth getting an understanding of, in terms of approach, methodology, etc., because Tohei was most certainly among the best ever produced by O-Sensei and the Ki perspective of Tohei (minus the psychological stuff) is certain to be a window into Ueshiba's approach, IMO.

FWIW


Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible Ki & Kokyu Workshop Mike Sigman General 55 02-21-2006 07:21 AM
Stanislavsky and Ki DaveO General 11 01-20-2006 10:11 AM
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Env sushil_yadav Open Discussions 4 09-06-2005 03:23 PM
Leave Ki Society for MMA? A. Nonymous Anonymous 16 07-21-2004 12:22 AM
Train In Ki And Why chadsieger Training 54 06-15-2002 10:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:09 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate