Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Announcements & Feedback

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-08-2007, 08:16 AM   #1
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

I am tired of the pompous attitudes the nastiness and the overall degradation of this thread. I am done with it and I am done with the Aikiweb.

Goodbye

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 09:22 AM   #2
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Eek! Re: Baseline skillset

PLEASE don't leave Hooker sensei. I would miss you terribly. And what about the ARK? What will become of it? NOoo, please don't go.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 09:29 AM   #3
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
I am tired of the pompous attitudes the nastiness and the overall degradation of this thread. I am done with it and I am done with the Aikiweb.

Goodbye
Sensei,
You took the words right out of my mouth. I am very close to the same thing myself. I was just talking to someone offline who was also saying the same thing. These kinds of internet forums are open and can go all kinds of ways but it does become really tiring to have to sort through this kind of stuff and there are better uses of our time. I think that the shame is that it didn't have to be this way and we all could benefit from people with your experience but it is those who enforce their right to do and say anything that are depriving the rest of us of a more civil and balanced conversation. I think that can't be helped. It is the state of humanity which sometimes goes in a downward spiral. My apologies if I have contributed to this in any way.
I admire you and I hope to meet you someday.
Best wishes,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 09:45 AM   #4
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Wow. There seem to be a fair number of babies going out with the bathwater.

Gentlemen, it's a web forum. It is entirely the user's choice which threads they will read. If certain discussions/posters/attitudes bother you, offend you, or upset you, then the measured response is not reading those threads, rather than quitting the forum altogether. That way, you minimize exposure to what you don't like on AikiWeb, while retaining what you do like.

Every time I see a "How much does Aikido really work?" type thread, I studiously avoid it. I enjoy AikiWeb all the more by what I choose not to read.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 09:52 AM   #5
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
I think that the shame is that it didn't have to be this way and we all could benefit from people with your experience but it is those who enforce their right to do and say anything that are depriving the rest of us of a more civil and balanced conversation. I think that can't be helped. It is the state of humanity which sometimes goes in a downward spiral. My apologies if I have contributed to this in any way.
????? Who has "enforced" or imposed anything on this thread. As far as I know, people have the right to not read anything that doesn't interest them.

What really appears to be happening with a few people is that they're trying to "enforce" who can post what, according to the way they view Aikido and who has the right to post about Aikido. Is it possible to take this totally off-topic attempt at censorship and put it in another thread?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 09:59 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

I wonder how people who feel like Hooker Sensei would react to the following proposal...

Create a forum within aikiweb for these types of discussions. Call it Jin/Kokyu/Aiki/ki or whatever catchy name we can come up with. When people have questions on that kind of topic, simply direct them to that forum. Those who aren't interested don't have to read that entire forum. Then aikiweb continues to service everyone.

It would be a shame to lose good people simply because a certain topic or group of posters annoys them. It would also be a shame to paint a certain group of posters in a negative light simply because they respond to repeated attacks...

On the other hand...Jun has stated SEVERAL times that he just doesn't care WHO started it...maybe we all just need to BACK OFF a little bit...

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-08-2007 at 10:01 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:06 AM   #7
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 608
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
????? Who has "enforced" or imposed anything on this thread. As far as I know, people have the right to not read anything that doesn't interest them.

What really appears to be happening with a few people is that they're trying to "enforce" who can post what, according to the way they view Aikido and who has the right to post about Aikido. Is it possible to take this totally off-topic attempt at censorship and put it in another thread?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Thanks Mike for highlighting something I wasn't emphasizing. You made me seem like I was shouting when I was talking calmly. Please recall I also said ,"I think that can't be helped." That's not trying to enforce anything. That's accepting what is.
Please Mike, take it easy.
best wishes,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:22 AM   #8
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I wonder how people who feel like Hooker Sensei would react to the following proposal...

Create a forum within aikiweb for these types of discussions. Call it Jin/Kokyu/Aiki/ki or whatever catchy name we can come up with. When people have questions on that kind of topic, simply direct them to that forum. Those who aren't interested don't have to read that entire forum. Then aikiweb continues to service everyone.

It would be a shame to lose good people simply because a certain topic or group of posters annoys them. It would also be a shame to paint a certain group of posters in a negative light simply because they respond to repeated attacks...

On the other hand...Jun has stated SEVERAL times that he just doesn't care WHO started it...maybe we all just need to BACK OFF a little bit...

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron
I think this a wonderful idea. Aikido Journal has separate divisions relating to Systema, Daito Ryu etc. We could have one devoted to Internal Skills or some such where folks who are experts in that area could post without Aikido folks feeling like they are being pushed out of their own forum by people who do not do the art.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:30 AM   #9
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think this a wonderful idea. Aikido Journal has separate divisions relating to Systema, Daito Ryu etc. We could have one devoted to Internal Skills or some such where folks who are experts in that area could post without Aikido folks feeling like they are being pushed out of their own forum by people who do not do the art.
Actually, I think there are a fairly large number of "Aikido folks" who are in these discussions, although of course some engage in the discussion on other forums. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that *some* Aikido folks who want to maintain the status quo would feel more comfortable if these discussions were elsewhere.... but not all Aikido folks want that?

As a second point, and perhaps you didn't mean it that way, it seems that you're somehow putting "internal skills" .... and that means Ki and Kokyu skills .... as something outside of Aikido practice, like Systema, etc. That seems a bit of a stretch.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:36 AM   #10
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I don't think censorship is the particular issue. Topics can be discussed without name calling, posturing, or simply bad manners. In most traditional arts, we attempt to maintain some form of etiquette. Why does that have to go away simply because someone is sitting behind a keyboard? When threads start going back in forth with statements about someone's skills or knowledge being in question it detracts from meaningful discourse.

Perhaps a good approach would be to ask oneself a simple question. Is what I am going to put down adding anything to the discussion? Or, is it my opinion directed at another person? People may be discussing the same concepts only with a different perspective. Trying to understand the perspective rather than criticize it might be a more productive approach.

Yes, one can pick and choose their viewings. However, why should I have to do so? Why can't a thread maintain civility and discuss the topic without all the barbs? It wastes a lot of space and frequently deviates from the concepts/issues being discussed. If you seriously want to try to learn something from others, then you have to sift through the trash talk to get to the meat of it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:48 AM   #11
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I agree with your points, mainly, John, but it's always a complex issue. On some of the ancient forums I've been on I wound up going through all sorts of perspectives.

The primary rule should be to stick to the issue.

If there's a moderator, he should moderate to be sure the issue is stuck to (and not be fooled by some of the transparent "I'm sticking to the issue, but really trying to stick it to someone").

Expect some contention, particularly on a martial arts forum, and see if some of the measured bickering actually produces results. Too many times I've seen hopeless-appearing threads suddenly blossom into very productive discussions. Personally, when I moderate, I judge whether to cut off bickering by who is bickering (their apparent knowledge level of the base topic). The people who don't contribute anything but personal "feelings" and observations about other posters get the door.

I think those are the guidelines to watch.... everytime that sort of format is used, a discussion forum becomes "civil". What I worry about with regard to "civility" is that sometimes a certain faction will use "civility" to impose their own viewpoints and cut off discussion they don't want to hear. That's censorship. That's the reason right now that Aikido has gotten to the point that it loses a lot of younger students and why many of even the old guard are "looking for something to make Aikido viable". The people at the top of the pecking order will do a lot to protect their positions and that needs to be remembered as typical in all martial arts (and life in general).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:55 AM   #12
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that *some* Aikido folks who want to maintain the status quo would feel more comfortable if these discussions were elsewhere.... but not all Aikido folks want that?
Respectfully Mike, even though I sometimes engage in discussions with people like yourself and Dan who are critical of aikido and post here, I do not particularly like much of what is said by people whose only purpose here seems to be to criticise aikido. I've seen your posts concerning internal skills and I have to disagree with a lot of what you say, I find it amusing that you often refuse to discuss certain things but are happy to tell us all how we're doing it all wrong. Same goes for Dan and his MMA perspective, it is, in my opinion a mixture of conceit, genuine insight and highly intelligent trolling.

I haven't shied away from discussing difficult topics with people who are very critical of aikido, it's training methods and it's effectiveness but I have to say that I do feel that I preferred aikiweb when you weren't here.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 10:56 AM   #13
clwk
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 136
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

John,
Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
When threads start going back in forth with statements about someone's skills or knowledge being in question it detracts from meaningful discourse.
This is only true if the level of "someone's skills or knowledge" is immaterial to a discussion. Certainly gratuitous ad hominem is problematic, and *some* types of argument based on an implicit appeal to authority amount to that. However, in a discussion whose topic *is* 'skills and knowledge', such assessments are necessarily involved. Consider a discussion of brain surgery: there are various possible qualifications for entry into the discussion. One might be a medical degree -- but that might be insufficient. Knowledge of and skill in brain surgery is, in my opinion, absolutely germane to discussion of brain surgery. Speculation about brain surgery divorced from actual experience performing such surgery is confusing at best. This has nothing to do with specific individuals or what they have said. It is a general comment about the relevance of 'qualifications' for discussions. The best qualification for public discussion is that one's contributions demonstrate specific knowledge of the topic. If this is not the case, it is incumbent upon those with whom one argues to point this out. Treating all opinions as equal is another way of 'detracting from meaningful discourse'. If debate arises as to whose version of 'specific knowledge of the topic' is accurate, then so be it. That is the nature of discourse, and it cannot be swept under the rug by the wish that it not be so.

Chhi'mèd
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 11:03 AM   #14
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: View Post
John,
This is only true if the level of "someone's skills or knowledge" is immaterial to a discussion. Certainly gratuitous ad hominem is problematic, and *some* types of argument based on an implicit appeal to authority amount to that. However, in a discussion whose topic *is* 'skills and knowledge', such assessments are necessarily involved. Consider a discussion of brain surgery: there are various possible qualifications for entry into the discussion. One might be a medical degree -- but that might be insufficient. Knowledge of and skill in brain surgery is, in my opinion, absolutely germane to discussion of brain surgery. Speculation about brain surgery divorced from actual experience performing such surgery is confusing at best. This has nothing to do with specific individuals or what they have said. It is a general comment about the relevance of 'qualifications' for discussions. The best qualification for public discussion is that one's contributions demonstrate specific knowledge of the topic. If this is not the case, it is incumbent upon those with whom one argues to point this out. Treating all opinions as equal is another way of 'detracting from meaningful discourse'. If debate arises as to whose version of 'specific knowledge of the topic' is accurate, then so be it. That is the nature of discourse, and it cannot be swept under the rug by the wish that it not be so.

Chhi'mèd
Yes, I agree knowledge about a topic is an issue. However, you will not likely see brain surgeons attacking each other personally. THey can disagree scientifically. And MDs have some of the biggest egos on the planet.

Personal attacks are not necessary. Questioning knowledge can be done inoffensively.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 11:10 AM   #15
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I've seen your posts concerning internal skills and I have to disagree with a lot of what you say
Can you point me to some posts where you've factually disagreed, Mike, or is this statement something where you're just fulminating?
Quote:
I find it amusing that you often refuse to discuss certain things but are happy to tell us all how we're doing it all wrong.
Can you point to a post as an example? I disagree with your blanket "refuse to discuss certain things" since I've drawn diagrams, gone into lengthy discussions on basics a number of times. Insofar as your "tell us all how we're doing it wrong", I claim bullshit.... I have never spoken to "us all" (the phrase you're trying to hide your personal attack behind) in Aikido at any time.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 11:35 AM   #16
clwk
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 136
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree knowledge about a topic is an issue. However, you will not likely see brain surgeons attacking each other personally. THey can disagree scientifically. And MDs have some of the biggest egos on the planet.

Personal attacks are not necessary. Questioning knowledge can be done inoffensively.
Not to belabor the point, but the issue is not 'brain surgeons attacking each other personally'. The issue is a number of individuals attempting to remotely discussion brain surgery without universal knowledge of one another's brain surgery abilities. Some of the participants may not actually be qualified brain surgeons at all. Depending on the content of advice being doled out, discussion *might* become slightly heated: "Please stop telling people to cut that 'insignifcant nerve'. Anyone who thinks that nerve is insignificant proves himself not to know."

Personal attacks are never necssary, but when individuals align themselves with their views and back them up with personal credentials of any kind then attacks on views can easily become conflated with attacks on persons. It is better if the 'attackers' can refrain from unnecessary insult, but it has to be noted that at a certain point, there is implicit insult in disagreement. This is a result of individuals aligning themselves closely with their arguments. Human nature, I think.

Chhi'mèd
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 11:48 AM   #17
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Hmm... Hooker sensei objected to the tone in the threads, the name calling , which degenerated the thread from where it was. I don't recall seeing this as a problem with the topic itself or the posters.

I hate to see a good discussion sidetracked so.

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:00 PM   #18
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: View Post
Not to belabor the point, but the issue is not 'brain surgeons attacking each other personally'. The issue is a number of individuals attempting to remotely discussion brain surgery without universal knowledge of one another's brain surgery abilities. Some of the participants may not actually be qualified brain surgeons at all. Depending on the content of advice being doled out, discussion *might* become slightly heated: "Please stop telling people to cut that 'insignifcant nerve'. Anyone who thinks that nerve is insignificant proves himself not to know."

Personal attacks are never necssary, but when individuals align themselves with their views and back them up with personal credentials of any kind then attacks on views can easily become conflated with attacks on persons. It is better if the 'attackers' can refrain from unnecessary insult, but it has to be noted that at a certain point, there is implicit insult in disagreement. This is a result of individuals aligning themselves closely with their arguments. Human nature, I think.

Chhi'mèd
Agreed. I understand your perspective. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it all gets down to a choice of words and how you say things. You can get a point across in many different ways. Unfortunately, some seem to always chose the way that seems to rile the feathers of others. THere is a book written about basically how to discuss things without eliciting negative reactions-I think it is called non-violent verbal communications-Marshall? I'll have to look at the author and book title-it's been a while. Dobson tried to discuss the issues in his book as well. Verbal aikido if you will.

I realize some are not as smooth with their wordings and tend to value directness, etc. However, many of the comments could simply be put a better way and facilitate discussion rather than result in four or five defensive or offensive repsonses.

Knowledge can always confuse the conversation and make communication difficult. However, "communication" is almost always the responsibility of the sender. If you want to get a message across and it is not received, then you hold the resposiblity to figure out how to do so. Sometimes it is not possible if the receiver is simply not willing to receive no matter what you do. However, subliminal insults or attacks generally serve little purpose and generally say more about the attacker than the receiver.

The thread this spun off started out great, however, after a while I simply could not mentally sift through all the trash talking enough to get anything out of it. If that was cut out the thread would be about half the size or less. For me, it turned something I was interested in to something that ultimately serve little purpose because I was simply not willing to continuously sift through the verbal warfare to try and find the potential gems.

Communication is extremely challenging. Everything one says can be misinterpreted. However, learning to speak with some forethought about how the audience might respond can minimize misinterpretations.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:02 PM   #19
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Insofar as your "tell us all how we're doing it wrong", I claim bullshit.... I have never spoken to "us all" (the phrase you're trying to hide your personal attack behind) in Aikido at any time.
I can't particularly be bothered to dredge through your backlog of posts to find examples, I am referring to the general tone of your comments and my reading of them, it is entirely possible I am doing you an injustice but the only thing I can think of that comes to mind quickly is your rather patronizing statement at the beginning of the baseline skillset thread (incidentally the reason I stopped reading it was because of that as I had better things to do that day):

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My comment, BTW, to Ki Society people is ..... you've got a viably good start; now go further. Figure out what Sum is doing.
One of many examples I don't have the time or inclination to look for, if it weren't for the fact that I knew it was at the beginning of that thread I wouldn't have posted anything here at all.

And to be honest with you I don't really think that what I said counted as a personal attack, but this certainly does and I make no apologies for it: I really don't care what you think, I find you occasionally engaging, often interesting and equally as often wrong in your assumptions and statements, patronizing, condescending and prone to pontificating. I often read things you have written and find myself tempted to challenge you on many points but decided long ago that I really don't care what you say too much and have better things to do than write endlessly on internet forums. I suspect that others have felt similarly.

Sincerely

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:03 PM   #20
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 484
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Some time ago I decided to back off the discussion forums for several reasons. I do keep an eye out for the thoughts of some who I admire and respect such as Peter G and Dennis H.
I believe Jun has done an excellent job of maintaining this site and I will continue to support him in my own way. However I feel it is unfortunate that people of varying experience levels get "the business" from a few who obviously need ALOT of attention. Simply put- there is just too much mental masturbation going on for some to put up with, especially if it's at the expense of others. Unfortunately I have a feeling that if you ignore these people, they'll find you- not go away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:04 PM   #21
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Respectfully Mike, even though I sometimes engage in discussions with people like yourself and Dan who are critical of aikido and post here, I do not particularly like much of what is said by people whose only purpose here seems to be to criticise aikido. I've seen your posts concerning internal skills and I have to disagree with a lot of what you say, I find it amusing that you often refuse to discuss certain things but are happy to tell us all how we're doing it all wrong. Same goes for Dan and his MMA perspective, it is, in my opinion a mixture of conceit, genuine insight and highly intelligent trolling.

I haven't shied away from discussing difficult topics with people who are very critical of aikido, it's training methods and it's effectiveness but I have to say that I do feel that I preferred aikiweb when you weren't here.

Mike
Actually, you left parts out. While Mike and Dan might be critical of *some* aikido, they *also* believe that these baseline skills would improve aikido. Lest we not forget, too, that Mike's posted about the Ki Society and them being on a good track. Nor any amount of comments about Ikeda sensei working in a good manner within Aikido.

However, if you've taken their comments as being critical and as a criticism of aikido, perhaps a mirror might help clear up whose aikido you have aligned their citicisms with. I know I held that mirror up and found it justified in the sense that I did not have those baseline skills mentioned.

As for conceit and trolling. You have that completely wrong. I've met Rob, Mike and Dan. I find those traits as far from the truth as could possibly be.

And lastly, just to be another voice read, I like AikiWeb with them here. I have learned a lot from their posts.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:15 PM   #22
clwk
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 136
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, some seem to always chose the way that seems to rile the feathers of others.
And when people disagree at a sufficiently fundamental level, that will always be there. It does not really matter who takes the 'aggressive' versus the 'passive-aggressive' stance when communication breaks down. That tends to depend on who is attempting to frame their position as somehow outside or superior to the actual point of contention. That *I* am the one playing by 'the rules' is the implicit position of the passive aggressive arguer. Sometimes that position has to be called.
Quote:
I realize some are not as smooth with their wordings and tend to value directness, etc. However, many of the comments could simply be put a better way and facilitate discussion rather than result in four or five defensive or offensive repsonses.
So true. Things could be better in the world, but can calls for politeness help much amongst those who have abandoned it?

Quote:
The thread this spun off started out great, however, after a while I simply could not mentally sift through all the trash talking enough to get anything out of it. If that was cut out the thread would be about half the size or less. For me, it turned something I was interested in to something that ultimately serve little purpose because I was simply not willing to continuously sift through the verbal warfare to try and find the potential gems.
It sounds like you are saying that your desire for 'information' is less than your desire to 'sift through' the noise. That is a personal choice, or at least a personal reality. There are two solutions. One, deal with the noise; or two: try to change the situation.

In terms of Two. Let's assume the situation is Chimpanzees vs Brain Surgeons, but no-one knows which is which. We cannot expect the Chimps to become civilized. It is not in their nature. Nor can we expect the Brain Surgeons to treat the Chimps as equals. If we pretend there is not a disagreement so fundamental that each position demands a total negation of the other, then we can imagine that 'civil discourse' is the answer. The problem is that by civilly allowing the Chimps to take their turn with the scalpel, the Brain Surgeons prove irresponsible.

Dung is going to fly. Readers have to decide whether it's worth enduring dung to attend a public lecture on brain surgery. It might not be, but it's definitely not worth confusing the two 'matters'.

Chhi'mèd
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #23
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,852
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Hi folks,

So, to try to provide a bit of perspective on things from where I stand (sit)...

What I read in Dennis's initial post above has less to do with the subject matter but the overall tone which he has seemingly perceived in recent discussions. As I have written and requested, time and time and time again, the first rule of AikiWeb is to treat others with respect. If I can be so honest, I find it surprising if not frustrating that such a request be a seemingly difficult one to subscribe to, as this community is one that is based in budo -- a pursuit which, in my mind, must be rooted in etiquette and respect.

Many times I have sent a request to people via private means to please moderate their tone or manner of conducting discussion here on AikiWeb; many times I have received angry responses pointing the finger at another person or even at me at times for asking. I get people sending me private messages saying that so-and-so is being rude again, that such-and-such can't be anything but arrogant/disrespectful/uncouth/etc while others send in the same complaints regarding them in turn. It seems that many people repeat the phrase "But s/he started it!" to excuse their own behavior.

Some of this really makes me wonder if it's all worth it, folks.

However, I believe that discussing the art of aikido is a very worthwhile endeavor. Any field which is not open to the thoughts and feedback from people outside of that field is one that needs, in my mind, to be further opened up. However again, I will say that I sometimes wish that there were more discussions to the effect of "How does aikido [insert something that may or may not be in aikido here]?" rather than "Why doesn't aikido [insert something that someone considers isn't in aikido here]?" They're both valid questions, of course, but the tone and seeming intent behind the latter may be taken as undermining. Also, I personally think it's very important to choose words and ways to phrase them with care, especially when presenting a critical or controversial idea. Relatedly perhaps, as this website is about aikido, I hope that people relate what they are writing to aikido explicitly and specifically.

Maybe it's just me who thinks this way about etiquette and respect. Maybe it's because I have personally met and trained with so many people on AikiWeb and other parts of the aikido/budo community that, honestly, I really don't understand how people can write words to the effect of, "Why are you so stupid as to not get what I'm saying?" Honestly, reading some of the words seemingly slung at one another here on AikiWeb (including in the Open Discussions forum) sometimes breaks my heart. I think to myself, "Is this what I've created? This is the community which I helped create after hundreds if not thousands of hours of work?"

Now, many of you know that I take a pretty laissez-faire stance with the discussions here on AikiWeb. I do this not because I don't care about what is happening here on AikiWeb (see "hundreds if not thousands of hours of work" above) but because I truly believe that all of us have the ability and capacity to conduct meaningful, insightful, and even controversial and heated discussions in a civil, level-headed, and open-hearted manner. Just like in budo training wherein the crux of keiko comes from oneself, the same applies here, I think. If I've learned something from my own time in budo, it's that I am responsible for my actions. How others treat me is how they act and is not something I can readily control. How I respond, though, is my responsibility.

So, please, folks. Let's conduct ourselves in a manner which cultivates responsibility, respect, and community. I don't know about all of you, but personally, I think it's worth it.

Best,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 12:52 PM   #24
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 894
United_States
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

My high school english professor used to say that, "writing is simple - if a reader can misunderstand what you wrote, then it was poorly written."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2007, 01:03 PM   #25
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

It would be a great shame if Dennis Hooker chooses not to post here, I have always enjoyed his posts, and have had my understanding of the aikido world broadened by his input.
There are posters here that you know you would like to practice with, given what they have to say. I hope he has a re think, but understand if he doesn't.

regards,

Mark
p.s. Thanks for all the hard work Jun!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Filtering/ignore buttons on threads? Gernot Hassenpflug Announcements & Feedback 10 08-06-2006 11:52 PM
Verständnisprobleme bei engl. Threads Dirk Hanss German 17 11-29-2005 05:16 PM
I can't view some of the threads Kat.C Announcements & Feedback 10 08-22-2002 06:30 PM
Active Forum Threads.... Hogan Announcements & Feedback 2 07-30-2002 10:22 AM
Active Forum Threads akiy Announcements & Feedback 8 06-14-2001 06:58 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate