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Old 12-07-2006, 10:01 PM   #101
DH
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Re: Practical internal training ?

This has long been recognized as an aspect of Bujutsu training. But the important thing is that the physical aspects can be shown to actually attain unity of movement but rarely has been I'd bet. Better than the happenstance of twenty years of training. Where some get it and most do not.

But the body training and the movement has actual use in fighting.
Consider the old addage of Suigetsu and why it is so often written about. Movement in grappling is fine, But movement.... with edged weapons was deadly. Suddenly...... Moon / water and the potential for ...instant connection of two entities.... has more relevance.

Since we're yaking abut this stuff, how we carry our weight and the movement through the spine, is as pertinent as the movement itself. And the result of this type of body movement is significant on contact. For those who train in grappling the displacement and movement potential, not to mention striking. And for me the Counter-punching potential become profound. I am told constantly that they can't see them coming. Even something simple as a double underhook and leg wrap can be nuetralized without moving. And the abiltiy to "hear" is far more real.
Since this is new to some guys I'd encourage getting into grappling to try your skills. Your going to find a whole new dynamic and potential there where skilled guys will simply not be able to get in. You will have their center on touch. Other commen things will be them locking themselvs up momentarily. And if they are astute grapplers they will dump out and change up continually trying to get in.
For those who are new to things, theres going to be a lot of fun to offset the agony of training.

cheers
Dan
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:14 AM   #102
billybob
 
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Re: Practical internal training ?

I love aikido. I saw Sensei make someone fall without touching them (caught their eyes irimi) while icing a dislocated shoulder I got from (poor practice on my part) judo class.

I knew that that was where my judo had been headed before I got injured a few years prior. I began to study.
----------
Mode of inquiry:
Erick Mead makes a valid point - why not subject aikido to the rigors of western thought? I criticized him for exactly that, and for talking over people's heads. At age 8 I saw students attaching paper to bushes to measure their growth - abomination! I tore all the papers off. Now, years later I am proud to call myself a scientist.

I understand why Erick and Mike Sigman grouse at each other. I think Sensei Harden knows why I 'jumped' him.

To not run on I'll speak by analogy: Five years ago my physical therapist taught me how to get in and out of my chair at work. He said of getting up: 'Bring one foot back, bend forward and lose the horizon, fall forward onto your feet, then regain the horizon. Now push up, don't pull with your legs, and you'll be standing'. The fool! It taught me nothing! Until now. I am opening the muscles/nerves around my battered groin and feeling what is there. The exercise has taken on a whole new dimension of sensation, opening, strengthening and wonderful glorious intense pain - which I prefer to numbness.

How will we train aikido?

David
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:48 AM   #103
ChrisMoses
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Mode of inquiry:
Erick Mead makes a valid point - why not subject aikido to the rigors of western thought? I criticized him for exactly that, and for talking over people's heads. At age 8 I saw students attaching paper to bushes to measure their growth - abomination! I tore all the papers off. Now, years later I am proud to call myself a scientist.
Since you have a judo background, you know that this was, in many ways, Kano Sensei's intent. He was educated in Western methodologies of Phyisical Education in addition to his jujutsu background. Perhaps it was this new mental paradigm that led him to put "that feeling" into a clear conceptual concept (kuzushi) and develop a sylabus to teach it. Aikido could have used these same concepts and added to them in a similar manner, but for whatever reason it didn't. Personally I think this was because Ueshiba was a martial genious and a deeply religious person, but was not a scientist. He described aikido in just as sophisticated a lexicon as any scientist could hope for, but it was an obscure lexicon of ancient deities and fringe religious teachings. (This last point is admittedly conjecture. I never met the man, never studied with him, but this is the picture I have drawn from all of the primary sources I have read.) That doesn't do me much good. I have a physics degree with a math minor and enough anatomy/physiology/phychology courses to fill entrance requirements for a Physical Therapy program (I was trying to make a career change a while back). I think in structures, rules and psychological phenomena.

One of the greatest gifts I've gotten from my current teacher is a lexicon for aikido/budo/jutsu that actually means something to me. Sometimes I take it too literally, but just as any new language is learned, the subtlety and depth of meaning requires 'living' in the language for a while.

Short version? There are already people and groups out there that have done this to a large degree, but by doing so, have moved themselves out of the art. It's a slippery slope, remember that before you can ask yourself HOW something works, you have to be pretty confident THAT it works.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:57 AM   #104
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Chris,

If we meet at a seminar would you favor me with some judo style randori please? I sorely miss it - and I love to fall. Some guys at my dojo know how to do randori but they decline to play with me - I hope it is the sucky mats and not my body odor problem.

david
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:23 AM   #105
Esaemann
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Re: Practical internal training ?

I guess I'll jump in, and anybody can take whatever they want out of it.

I've been doing aikido for about 5 years now, and tai chi seriously for about 3 (started 8 yrs ago).

In aikido, I always have to consiously think about relaxing, and when practice gets heated up (with someone I'm comfortable) I revert to non-relaxing and using muscle.

In tai chi, relaxing comes easier. Probably moreso because that is the attitude in my Daoguan among everyone. We have the same set of students since I began.

Learning to use jin (or chi) power in a martial sense has eluded me thus far. I believe that obtaining this power for healing self and becoming stronger physically and mentally is much easier than martially. I'm buying into the statements that if you practice for 2 to 4 hours a day for 10 years, you will develop effective internal power. It also sounds better than saying there is no such thing as internal power that can be used to throw someone without touching them. I have at times felt sensations during tai chi and meditation that I haven't in aikido. From what I've read and understand, these sensations only come when one is totally relaxed (so to speak). Also, it seems much easier to effect change (even internally (even at a very base/cell level)) in self, than to affect someone else.

For those seeking internal power, it is definitely an individual journey (taoist philosophy) even if you are fortunate enough to have access to an effective teacher.

Is it possible to find an effective teacher? I'm not even sure if mine is an effective(?) teacher for developing martial internal power.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:53 AM   #106
ChrisMoses
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Chris,

If we meet at a seminar would you favor me with some judo style randori please? I sorely miss it - and I love to fall. Some guys at my dojo know how to do randori but they decline to play with me - I hope it is the sucky mats and not my body odor problem.

david
Sure, but keep in mind that I suck. You'll probably dump me all over the place. That can be fun too though.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:15 AM   #107
billybob
 
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Chris, can't wait brother!

Esaemann -
Quote:
Learning to use jin (or chi) power in a martial sense has eluded me thus far. I believe that obtaining this power for healing self and becoming stronger physically and mentally is much easier than martially.
Martial sense:
Here is where I get philosophical; sorry if it's a threadjak. Martial does not have to mean kicking the s__t out of someone. If attacked I can poke my finger through the eye, step in and break the person's neck OR I can step inside thir strike, hug them, and lay them gently to the ground, then run like hell.

Prewar, postwar, I don't care. I like the broadminded, be gentle to all others approach that Dr. Kano and OSensei put across. I think it works in the real world. I am not in prison now, because I chose Not to kill. It don't get more real world than that.

On topic, do we make aikido more like judo, or should I drop everything and stick to solo bokken and chi kung for ten years?

dave

Last edited by billybob : 12-08-2006 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:37 PM   #108
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
... Kano Sensei's intent. He was educated in Western methodologies of Phyisical Education ...
Aikido could have used these same concepts... but ... didn't. Ueshiba ... was not a scientist. He described aikido in just as sophisticated a lexicon as any scientist could hope for, but it was ... obscure ... .
I firmly believe that everything he said or wrote or was recorded in teaching must be preserved AND APPLIED in relation to aikido. While it is alchemical knowledge in its nature, that is not derogatory in any way. It describes a certain type of non-reductionist symbolic knowledge. Without the direct legacy of alchemy we would not have either organic or inorganic chemistry, for instance. Without the indirect legacy of alchemy the very basis of metatheory in empirical science, as early developed by Bacon, would not exist.

There are many potential mechanical perspectives on interpretion of these principles. Several of them could be equally valid from differnt perspectives or in understanding certain principles of action at different scales, for instance.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I think in structures, rules and psychological phenomena.
Then we truly have common ground.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
One of the greatest gifts I've gotten from my current teacher is a lexicon for aikido/budo/jutsu that actually means something to me.
Is it drawn from mechanics? What is his approach?

Jacques Heyman, an engineer, and who, as far as I know, doesn't even know what aikido is, started me thinking about structures and their mechanical interpretation in ways that called up aikido for me. A good start is his book translating and discussing the principles of analysis used in "Colulomb's Memoir on Statics." Particular attention should be given to the principles graphically illustrated on the cover of the 1998 edition. and if you get a copy , the discussion of that topic. See here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1860...01#reader-link
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
There are already people and groups out there that have done this to a large degree, but by doing so, have moved themselves out of the art. It's a slippery slope,
Which is why I want to constantly check the mechnical interpretation against actual practice and the sources that O Sensie gave us. It is necessary to have the patience to delve into both streams of learning to do this.

O Sensei is and must be the acid test for anything that aspires to be aikido. Budo Renshu, the Takemusu Aiki lectures or in the lectures and depictions of the kotodama and mandala, and tehcniques and principles he otherwise communicated all have application to this effort. I do not propose to abandon any of them. Far from it. I wish draw from them to re-relate that knowledge into one or more recognized systems of mechanics, as Ledyard Sensei is re-relating the knowledge in a system of psychology.

Ledyard started me thinking in this way because of his way of translating O Sensei's concepts into terms of Western psychology. On that point, an excellent analyst of the psychology of budo from a purely Western perspective is John Hillman (a direct student of Carl Jung). He wrote "A Terrible Love of War." I found it remaindered at the Barnes & Noble. It is a marvelous book summing up his ideas drawn from a lifetime of psychological study and practice in Jung's method. What is intrgiguing is that like O Sensei, Hillman deeply relates the principles of both war and love using a Jungian mytholigical backdrop, from bothe clasical and modern sources. It gives some strong examples of how to do the same thing in approaching the functional symbolic imagery that O Sensei drew from the Kojiki.
Quote:
John Hillman wrote:
One sentence from one scene in one film, Patton, sums up what this book tries to understand. The general walks the field after a battle. Churned earth, burnt tanks, dead men. He takes up a dying officer, kisses him, surveys the havoc, and says,

"I love it. God help me, I do love it so. I love it more than my life."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:30 PM   #109
DH
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Unhappy Re: Practical internal training ?

Ueshiba a martial Genius?

I'd say he had a good teacher and was talented guy. He didn't invent this stuff. As much credit goes to Takeda as him.

As for the means he used to express it? I think that had an evolutionary source as well

I believe in Ueshiba's vision.
I also believe that what we see in much of Aikido today…..aint it.
Ueshiba could not be touched
Takeda could not be touched
Sagawa could not be touched
Kodo could not be touched

So I guess saying there all genius's saves giving credit where credit is due. That being the only one --they-had in common was Takeda
How Uehsiba's skills morphed into Aiki-do and how his students morphed into receivers is explicable. When one can generate internal power and control incoming forces then they themselves can see the effects it creats and the way it affects and attacker. Play with the same attackers for long time and their attacks become fairly useless on you. They know it and it changes the game.
I believe....as Ueshiba got better. He realized that he could not be touched. I believe as a result of that…. the ukes changed. Their attacks changed, and then, since the repelling and power generation of Ueshiba changed as Ueshiba could repel and draw them and lead them……. The art gradually solidified and changed into the open type of attacks seen on all those videos..
And this.....this key marriage between the ability to be untouchable and how it repels aggressors....was the later day birth of Aikido.
It became the engine that drove --him- but was not taught.

And I actually admire the goal and vision.
But without the internals, its hollow and insipid and the whole conceptual framework of attack and true control becomes, half hearted, open attacks, with out any need of internal skills to control anything to begin with. It becomes just a watered down jujutsu. And for some worse.

As for conflict
One can love conflict and the physical game of chess with out having become warped, violence mongers by it. Men from of all walks of life have enjoyed that play in all era's
The argument that those who love it are of small mind is a frequently used insult also cast on the military. Similar to Kerry's grade point average at Yale being below Bush's yet he derides his intelligence and our service people who are on average better edicated then the same section populace age group.
In Ueshiba's case one can argue he had to become internally strong and technically skilled before he could become enlightended enough to have access to skills that could power his "vision" to draw a successful solution to conflict. How? by drawing, repelling, and contolling through internal power.

But hey if we're talking peace, love and visions.....His path, in the end was just not to far afield from the well worn highway of
"Peace.... through strength.


Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-08-2006 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:30 PM   #110
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And I actually admire the goal and vision.
But without the internals, its hollow and insipid and the whole conceptual framework of attack and true control becomes, half hearted, open attacks, with out any need of internal skills to control anything to begin with. It becomes just a watered down jujutsu. And for some worse.
Dan
That, is hitting the nail on its head.

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Old 12-09-2006, 02:28 PM   #111
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Bull by the horns:

Erick, I was a small asthmatic kid when I started judo, and frequently had histamine reactions when I trained - result, not much muscle to begin with.

I was motivated to learn judo because I expected to be beaten to death by my father before age twenty. (I was almost right)

My wise old Sensei told me judo would not make me invincible but could be used to lessen injury in rough situations. I was sold. I gave it all my heart and soul. What I am offering, perhaps in poor taste, are my credentials for saying - I learned some internal stuff.

No one was there to talk about it with me. Small town, narrow culture, Sensei just smiled and kept quiet. The wise old man from my (Catholic) church, would have helped, but he did not experience what I did.

Example of internal power: I could sit in a desk in school and grip the opposite side of the flat top. By shifting the way my body levered off itself, from the inside, I could tear the desk top off its screws and no one could see what I was doing because there was no movement, especially if i was wearing long sleeves and the muscles in my forearms were not visible. Those flexed visibly.
-----------------
So, I submit that we can talk about internal power as being 'the way of shifting one's body leverage without it being apparent'. The word 'Gestalt' might come up in our discussion - 'the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Self indulgence - My mind got very calm, and I couldn't understand english words when I did judo. As I reflected I thought perhaps I was reverting to an 'animal' state. Later I wondered if maybe I was different than the animals only in that I could 'reprogram'. I could set my internal leverage to do judo, or to jump high in volleyball, or to ride a bicycle without straining my neck. But I had no one to talk to about it!

Now I do, but we all like to argue, me included.

dave

Last edited by billybob : 12-09-2006 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:38 AM   #112
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Practical internal training ?

I must start with an appology. I have not kept up reading this thread so what I have to add may have been covered, is so I appologize. Unfortunately this thread is longer than I currently I have time to read.

Anyway, I have been reading a book that came out this year called "Zen Body-Being: An Enlightened Approach to Physical Skill, Grace and Power" by Peter Ralston.

Disclaimer: I have never met Peter Ralston nor I have seen him on video, hence my limited opinion is solely based on the parts of the book I have read so far.

Opinion: The book is worthwile reading for those starting out in their discovery of internal training. Peter gives 5 basic principles and 14 structural points to focus on training. The book contains a number of individual drills that enable the reader to experience the principles and structural points in a meaningful way. By following the directions an observant and persistent person can learn a good deal about themselves and improve his/her body skills.

I do want to caution that the first 60 pages of the book are difficult. While there is definetly good information found in those pages, it is much longer and wordy then necessary.

For those with a solid background in the internal arts it is unlikely you will find anything new. Although the method that Peter uses to discribe feelings and connections may be useful for those that teach and share the art.

Take care and enjoy,

Mark J.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:38 PM   #113
Mark Freeman
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Thanks for the heads up Mark, I'll definitely add this one to my Xmas wants list.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:54 PM   #114
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Practical internal training ?

Looks like my home dojo will be having Tai Ji Chen 24 form and Tai Ji push hands classes next year in addition to Aikido. Interesting.

Mark G.
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