Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-06-2006, 09:01 PM   #76
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think this 3D Aikido now out is exactly along the same lines of missing the point as "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere". [snip]
Mike
Is this the "3D Aikido" referred to?

http://www.aikido3d.com/

Just curious. I hadn't seen the website or software before.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2006, 10:11 PM   #77
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,505
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(trivializing mixed with tap-dancing and verbal aerobatics, par excellence) Until then, Erick... until then. Auf Wiedersehen and good luck. It's up to others to satisfy your requirements or you won't learn....
Really, it is even more fun without the dozens ... If you cared to serve anyone but yourself you would be concerned whether they understood in their terms, not whether they merely bowed the knee to your holy vocabulary.

And if you are representative of the self-appointed gatekeepers -- I'll just reconnoiter over the wall, thanks.. Oh, wait, ... there isn't a wall ... just that gate with the guy trying to get people to stop and get his permission go through it, rather than just to keep on walking around it.

I'll keep walking, thanks.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2006, 10:25 PM   #78
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
Is this the "3D Aikido" referred to?

http://www.aikido3d.com/

Just curious. I hadn't seen the website or software before.
That's it. Hmmmmm.... is it really 3D if I view it on a flatscreen?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2006, 10:28 PM   #79
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
And if you are representative of the self-appointed gatekeepers
"Gatekeepers"?? Has someone been calling themselve gatekeepers?

Oh Erick, you big silly. There you are shaking your golden curls and stamping your tiny little feet and all I was doing was just funnin' ya.


Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2006, 10:35 PM   #80
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Please, sir. I was up all last night. My head cannot handle a koan about three dimensions on a two-dimensional screen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 04:26 AM   #81
jeff.
Dojo: aikido of morgantown
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 42
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Does anyone support or think feasible the idea that Ueshiba thought those skills were powerful, but morally neutral - while he specifically wanted to teach about morality and correct action, especially as his attitudes changed post-war and with his other enlightenments? That one comment I saw in some Tohei article about O'Sensei being annoyed that Tohei could demonstrate immovability in an "impure" state (hungover) comes to mind. O'Sensei connected spiritual enlightenment with his physical skills, almost to the point where the physical skills were not relevant, or perhaps were taken for granted. Therefore, O'Sensei emphasized the skills and methods less after the war, while his more current interests were in the theology and moral message, since that was where his interests were at that point.. .
i've been thinking about this post since it was posted, as it goes along a certain way toward something i've been wondering about. that is: is it possible that osensei was trying to point us to something "higher" (for lack of a better term) than what we generally understand as internal skills, etc.

perhaps better put: maybe it was not so much that these skills were neutral, but rather that osensei viewed them as basic to the general physical repetoir of techniques most koryu styles have. meaning that the internal skills were still, in some sense, for him, material skills. i mean, others here have noted that daito-ryu (or at least takeda sensei) taught these skills, so perhaps we can assume their existence in most (or at least many) styles. attendant to this, of course, is osensei's sense of a grander ethical-spiritual mission for aikido. because of all of this, his statements criticizing the strictly material nature of the arts might include internal skills.

also important here, before we go on, is the fact that he seemed to emphasize making use of "venerable traditions", as long as we put them thru the aiki filter.

so why, then, wouldn't osensei teach the internal skill overtly, while obviously trying to teach the ethical-spiritual message overtly? i mean: the fact seems to be that he barely even taught the external skills overtly after a certain point, at least no more than was necessary to make a philosophical point. tho, if ellis is right, and i suspect he is, he was showing the internal skills as much, and at the same time, if you were paying attention. i think, maybe, osensei viewed these two sides as the omote and ura (in and yo) of basic waza, and so didn't meaningfully separate them the way we do. that his students missed the point would be their problem. it was all out there on the surface all along, and he was certainly demonstrating it and talking on and on about it in his way... what more could he do?

regardless, perhaps he saw his message as the ground state? and had enough foresight to know that eventually we would put whatever was needed back in? that is: he felt the need to return to an ethical ground state, knowing full well that dorky warriors such as we would eventually add in what we need from "venerable traditions" to complete our core understandings so we could progress (infinitely, one presumes) as samurai in osensei's sense. (you know, "one who serves and adheres to the power of love".) he wasn't worried that we would absorb what we need, he knew we would, and told us to do so. what was important was the message.

due to this, it would seem we would be remiss, as aikido students, to not seek out and put into practice any applicable traditions from an aiki perspective. it is important, i think, to practice the waza osensei left us, as he seemed to design them around demonstrating aiki in a grander sense. (it seems that for osensei "ki" is, ultimately, roughly equivalant to the "holy spirit" in christianity. if so, "harmony with ki" then is descriptive of the rest of his message, and the term "aikido" as a name for his system makes a lot of sense.) some of us feel certain things have gone missing, in particular, for whatever reason. thus, i think trying to seek out and put back in internal skills is important in this regard, just as putting atemi waza back in is. in fact, it would seem these two goals are much the same in spirit. the only question then is whether or not we are doing so to understand and augment aikido-as-osensei's-spiritual-recast-of-bushido-for-the-modern-world.

or some such.

jeff.

ps-- haven't really slept in a few days. end of the semester and all. hope this isn't terribly incoherent. couldn't keep it in any longer!

Last edited by jeff. : 12-07-2006 at 04:30 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 07:52 AM   #82
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,505
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Gatekeepers"?? Has someone been calling themselve gatekeepers?

Oh Erick, you big silly. There you are shaking your golden curls and stamping your tiny little feet and all I was doing was just funnin'
I had suspected that your insight into people is as good as your insight into hair color.

And YOU said it, yourself, ya big silly :
Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... there are things beyond basics that I wouldn't freely give to people I thought didn't meet certain criteria.
Out of curiosity, what are your criteria?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just to keep it simple, I avoid saying anything to anyone (like Chris Moses and I discussed yesterday) who would use this sort of stuff strictly to maintain his pecking-order edge. Also, I tend to favor people who are into these things for functional practice, as opposed to the people who want to add some more talk-theories to their already sizeable repertoire.
History teaches that one should automatically suspect purveyors of the "secret" hidden knowledge, worthy only of the elect.

That approach is as pernicious as it egoistic, and as Thomas suggests, deeply anthetical to the moral fabric of O Sensei's teachings.

History also shows that true knoweldge is never hidden for the benefit of those who are meant to be kept ignorant.

This does, however, explain clearly why you continually refuse to engage me squarely on the mechanics of these issues, and prefer belittlement, rhetoric and resort to arcana. Those are classic ways to avoid actual communicaiton of ideas on a truly common and independently verifiable basis from which (the great unworthy, unwashed) others might benefit in a forum such as this.

Just a thought...

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-07-2006 at 08:01 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 08:02 AM   #83
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
Please, sir. I was up all last night. My head cannot handle a koan about three dimensions on a two-dimensional screen.
Stay away from those M. Escher lithographs, then.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 10:21 AM   #84
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,505
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Everybody just assumed that "circular" or "spiral" movement was what Aiki was about. There are still plenty of folks, as evidenced by this forum, whose limited view of what is doing on has to do with the outer form of the movement.
Ledyard Sensei provoked my recent thoughts about the nature of these mechanics in his seminar last year communicating some of what Ushiro Sensei was teaching at the Expo. It caused me to recollect my own kokyu tanden ho training and reconsider how I viewed what was actually operating.

Not that it changed what works for me in aikido, but it enlightened for me WHY it might work and how things might work better. Notably, my light bulb did not illuminate the path that Dan, Mike and the others recommend. I underwent a similer gestalt change in flight schoool when I finally realized how to physically interpret and thus to intuitively apply radial instruments, but it required a radical change of thinking and perspective on my part, or I would have surely flunked out.

Ledyard Sensei's approach (as in his recent article) to the psychological aspects of this issue is invaluable on the issues of musubi, aiki and kokyu. Psychological traiing has to be part of physical training in how to control one's own, and to grasp another's, attention and intent in action. Kinematic skills such as diving, skiiing, skating and gymnastics have benefited greatly in terms of dynamic control by addressing the same psychological means of adaptive dynamic interaction, control and the "flow state" psychology.

"Flow psychology" itself owes a great debt to contemplative Buddhism. But that body of learning made a distinct transition into the western empirical and analytical context of psychology. As a result, that flow psychology has found far broader application. It has since informed and advanced many arts that otherwise might not have engaged that knowledge. It was better able to "fit," i.e. -- the body of knowledge itself had to first achieve fit (musubi) with its surroundings, before it could blend seamlessly (aiki) with them.

But those other physical arts have also not ignored the kinematics and physical mechanics of their disciplines. They have all shown remarkable development and advancement in their technical range of skills since they have done so.

But the mechanics of aikido (and judo or jujutsu for that matter) are still woefully lacking (as specifically illustrated by the magnificent failure of Dynamic Sphere). The state of knowledge in this area, as I have said, remains stuck at the level of alchemy in Western terms. It all works -- but has no valid physical theory in Western terms.

Should we then be surprised that many aikido practitioners' discussions of "aikido principles" would tend track that of the Philosopher's Stone in terms of its rational, empirical significance? Is that really where we want to repose the modern legacy of budo? O Sensei did not -- and said so in Budo Renshu. He explored these in the idiom that "fit" him and his time. It is up to us to find the fit of these ideas for our own time and circumstance.

None of us is violtaing the laws of physics here. It just might be that nailing down which ones are actually being employed, and in what manner, might be helpful.

Anybody that wants to can check my thoughts on mechanics and can gig me publicly for any error I commit. It's not that hard -- I am not that good. I probably commit a fair number of errors. I commend David Knowlton for meeting me on this level to challenge me on the related stability questions of angular moment and bicycles. It illustrates that no one has to take what I say at face value. Go look it up and work it out. Go propose a different physical mode of action - internal or external. Defend it.

Without a valid physical theory aikido can never progress or develop in Western terms. That is why these issues are stuck where you all are complaining about it in the level of aikido training generally. Japan is and has been an increasingly Western oriented nation since about 1869, and doubly so since 1945.

That is why these things are being overlooked or ignored in the training of aikido generally. They just do not fit. They have lost musubi. The ideas are invaluable, but they (or, more to the point -- we) have not made the necessary transition to connect to the concepts of this time and place. They will continue to be overlooked or ignored in any arena of Western learning (here or in Japan) unless something is done to address that problem.

The mind of aikido has become fixed on its own paradigm thus violating the principle of fudoshin. Dan and Mike are right about the symptoms, but wrong on the diagnosis, and thus, wrong on the cure.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing that has repeatedly failed in the hope of a different result. Some of you say that these ideas have failed to be communicated. You are right. Some of you say you are doing something differnt. You think you are doing something different.

But really, you are singing the same song, just a verse that is different from the one you don't like. Yes, singing the same tune louder masks some part of the underlying dissonance -- but it doesn't actually come into harmony.

A new tune has become the fundamental to the larger orchestral movement in which we exist. We must change our key or no one will want to listen to us. And closing ourselves off in a sound-proof practice room means we will only be hearing ourselves play.

Just a thought...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 10:28 AM   #85
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,505
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
... as Thomas suggests, ...
Meant Jeff. Too late to catch for the edit. Apologies all round.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 11:51 AM   #86
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Meant Jeff. Too late to catch for the edit. Apologies all round.
No worries. I'm only posting to clarify and to expressly disclaim having any substantive insights into "the moral fabric of O Sensei's teachings." I certainly don't have any substantive insights into the nature of aikido practice. But I am very interested, and this is a fortunate time to be looking at aikido, because aikido is looking at its own practice, and the questions and insights are helpful. Thanks to everyone contributing on this and related threads.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:16 PM   #87
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
How is it that the entire Aikido community is NOT completely about learning ki from day one? But it's an obvious fact that they're not.... unless you want to argue that I just am not recognizing it when I see it.

Best.

Mike
Well I've been to a lot of dojos, yoshinkan, shodokan, aikikai, and so forth. I would agree that there is a general understanding of center and ki going on everywhere. However, Tohei's main mission and emphasis is that ki comes from a relaxed physical state and relaxed mind, coordinated and acting as one. RELAXED is the key word here. This seems to have been lost or never taught in a lot of other schools. Go on You Tube and look at any Aikikai demonstration and you'll see high level yudanasha throwing people with the infamous spread 'eagle claw' fingers, stiff shoulders, and on close examination, generally stiff and muscled movements. (and sometimes poor balance)

a clear comparison would be this relaxed example of tohei himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kpgQ4hupYQ
(notice if you can his fingers, shoulders, and rest of body stay completely relaxed)


and this high ranking shihanin aikikai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_wFJDbaJyw
(by comparison, this appears to have excessive pushing and force application as well) I'm not saying this is 'bad' aikido, but it's definitely 'tense' and while relative to street fighting very relaxed, it lacks the incredible emphasis on relaxation.

Tohei's aikido seems more genuinely 'powerful' and of course without all that muscle tension to slow him down, much much faster.

I"m not arguing that one style is better, just that one is more relaxed. And if you believe that ki flows better in a relaxed body, then the more relaxed you are, the more ki .



PS now if you wanna take relaxation to the ultimate extreme, there is this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzR1lsLm5RA&NR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXa7q...elated&search=

Last edited by Gwion : 12-07-2006 at 12:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:21 PM   #88
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Hi Wayne,

Who do you think the uke is in the first clip with Tohei???

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:24 PM   #89
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Well I've been to a lot of dojos, yoshinkan, shodokan, aikikai, and so forth. I would agree that there is a general understanding of center and ki going on everywhere. However, Tohei's main mission and emphasis is that ki comes from a relaxed physical state and relaxed mind, coordinated and acting as one. RELAXED is the key word here. This seems to have been lost or never taught in a lot of other schools. Go on You Tube and look at any Aikikai demonstration and you'll see high level yudanasha throwing people with the infamous spread 'eagle claw' fingers, stiff shoulders, and on close examination, generally stiff and muscled movements. (and sometimes poor balance)

a clear comparison would be this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kpgQ4hupYQ
(notice if you can his fingers, shoulders, and rest of body stay completely relaxed)


and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_wFJDbaJyw
I'm not saying this is 'bad' aikido, but it's definitely 'tense' and while relative to street fighting very relaxed, it lacks the incredible emphasis on relaxation.

almost brutal, forced, and 'mean' by comparison. yet for some reason, Tohei's aikido seems more genuinely 'powerful' and of course without all that muscle tension to slow him down, much much faster.

I"m not arguing that one style is better, just that one is more relaxed. And if you believe that ki flows better in a relaxed body, then the more relaxed you are, the more ki .

Head down Wayne...."Incoming" ...

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #90
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Head down Wayne...."Incoming" ...
hey it's a discussion board, gotta stir things up a bit right?

lol
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #91
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Nah...I'm too nice to take the shot...that's why I'm letting him figure it out for himself. And being from the yoshinkan, I have nothing invested in the New York Aikikai one way or the other. But hey, if you're willing to stick your head up out of the trench, don't be too surprised if someone *does* take the shot...that's what usually happens.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 12:29 PM   #92
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
hey it's a discussion board, gotta stir things up a bit right?

lol
Very true! Follow me, I'm right behind you

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:02 PM   #93
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Nah...I'm too nice to take the shot...that's why I'm letting him figure it out for himself. And being from the yoshinkan, I have nothing invested in the New York Aikikai one way or the other. But hey, if you're willing to stick your head up out of the trench, don't be too surprised if someone *does* take the shot...that's what usually happens.

Best,
Ron
woah, are you saying I'm on a hit list now?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:02 PM   #94
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Well I've been to a lot of dojos, yoshinkan, shodokan, aikikai, and so forth. I would agree that there is a general understanding of center and ki going on everywhere. However, Tohei's main mission and emphasis is that ki comes from a relaxed physical state and relaxed mind, coordinated and acting as one. RELAXED is the key word here.
I can't for the life of me find the video of Tohei trying to throw the big dumb white reporter from "Rendevous With Adventure." I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about though. Anyway, Tohei's not very relaxed there. It's amazing how relaxed you can be when people are going with whatever you do. I think the Ki Society totally misses it with their 4 principles. Relax completely should be Relax correctly as far as I'm concerned. I could go on, but that's probably enough. I too used the think the Yoshinkan didn't "get it." I still think a lot of people in the Yoshinkan don't, but I now think there is something there to get.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:03 PM   #95
Gwion
Dojo: New York Ki-Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Wayne,

Who do you think the uke is in the first clip with Tohei???

Best,
Ron
Is that you in that clip Ron?

lol
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:17 PM   #96
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Wayne,
Who do you think the uke is in the first clip with Tohei???
I'll never figure it out, all though I have an ironic guess. Could you post the name tomorrow (just long enough to torture us) to resolve my curiosity?
Thanks,
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:20 PM   #97
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Let's say that his initials are YY...and he currently lives in NY...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:21 PM   #98
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Funny that was my ironic guess.
Thanks,
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 01:47 PM   #99
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

it is rather humorous, isn't it, given the nature of the post, no?

Hey, it's all good though...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2006, 07:59 PM   #100
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: Practical internal training ?

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Well I've been to a lot of dojos, yoshinkan, shodokan, aikikai, and so forth. I would agree that there is a general understanding of center and ki going on everywhere. However, Tohei's main mission and emphasis is that ki comes from a relaxed physical state and relaxed mind, coordinated and acting as one. RELAXED is the key word here. This seems to have been lost or never taught in a lot of other schools. /.../ Tohei's aikido seems more genuinely 'powerful' and of course without all that muscle tension to slow him down, much much faster. /../
I can't stop quoting Kuroda Tetsuzan - it's just so much easier when it's already in print :-) Kata trains the one-movement type of coordination, where each to and fro motion becomes a single action.
He demonstrates this to beginners to give them the idea of what speed means in martial arts (many beginners come from boxing, karate, grappling, competitive MMA and so forth). First he shows a strike with normal body movement, as fast and hard as he can. Second, he does the same thing using single-movement coordination. Everyone usually picks the first one as the fastest and baddest. Then, he puts his hand against the beginner's stomach to feel the muscles, and does a similar strike with the other hand, which they should block. On the first type, he says he feels the stomach muscles working at the moment he starts his strike, so the blocks is already working. On the second type, the other person's muscles only start to work as Kuroda's hand is already travelling back from it's strike. So, he says, the martial arts masters are actually physically slower than full-speed strikers using normal coordination. It's not about the absolute power and speed. Using the one-movement coordination trained in kata wipes out any advnace signal of impending movement, so that even people who know what is coming cannot block it in time using their conventional coordination. This is not simple stuff, not addons to normal coordination.

Minoru Akuzawa does things similarly, when playing around with us in classes. He'll put out his hand to touch someone's face or body with a light tap, and actually I can remember intellectually that they never moved very fast, except that I could never remember in time to actually do something about it
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Am i missing something?? aikigirl10 General 119 04-20-2006 01:07 PM
Beginners Retention Rates akiy Teaching 45 04-06-2006 12:13 AM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 06:20 PM
Does Budo require a sense of shame? senshincenter General 72 09-12-2005 03:06 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate