Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-05-2001, 10:00 PM   #1
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Wink Your thoughts appreciated

I recently visited my Mum who lives some distance from my local Dojo. Whilst away I had the chance to practice within a Tomiki ha dojo.

As a student of Aikikai Aikido, and never having had much contact with Tomiki ha, I was naturally interested to find out more about the sport variant of the discipline.

I was surprised to see the dojo had no kamiza, little emphasis was placed upon etiquette and following a short time on the mat it was clearly evident that the only thing that mattered was scoring points to win bouts.

As a traditionalist and someone who considers maintaining the heritage of O'Sensei's art very important, I found it difficult to understand the sport form, it appeared to lack even basic 'martial' values and, although I fully comprehend the sport aspect, I watched what I considered to be fundamentally flawed technique being exercised by some Yudansha. At the end of the class I politely enquired about the over emphasis of 'size of technique' (every technique was executed with huge amounts of space between uke and tori or, tori would over emphasis rotational movements for example - Kote gaeshi, tori's arms would make over rotated circles) I was informed this was done to enable the judges every opportunity to see the technique applied cleanly and thus score.

I'd be very interested to hear from Tomiki ha students, I'm not in any way criticising this form of Aikido. I would be very pleased to learn from other's experiences about the deeper aspects of Tomiki ha Aikido and if it still retains any martial value. I read a thread in this forum about Sutemi Waza and how this form of Nage Waza had been banned from competition therefore was no longer required learning. whilst I accept Sutemi Waza is more akin to Judo, is this form of selective devolution true of Aikido technique not deemed suitable for competitive use ?

If this is the case how / whom controls what is deemed suitable and how might this effect the longevity of the discipline ?

Kind regards

Dave Humm
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2001, 10:22 PM   #2
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
I recently did the same thing you did and wasn't particularly bothered by anything I saw. I sure didn't see the sports emphasis either. The only singular non-martial thing I saw were brutally sloppy shomen strikes by a brown belt I was working with. I think he was annoyed with the persnickity white belt he was working with. They didn't seem to mind if I showed up in style so maybe I'll wear a different one next time.

Seriously, if I read the ranks correctly, I wouldn't have had any major comparative gripes with what I've seen in other dojos. I think you got a bad batch.

As to maintaining the tradition. Nah, better off I don't go there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2001, 10:32 PM   #3
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Erik,

Quote:
persnickity
Is this a US phrase ? I'm from the UK and I confess to not knowing what the hell "persnickity" actually means LOL
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2001, 11:39 PM   #4
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Humm
Erik,



Is this a US phrase ? I'm from the UK and I confess to not knowing what the hell "persnickity" actually means LOL
That's fair because I spelled it wrong, and, I used it badly. Sheesh! Who lets this guy post here?

Per Merriam Webster

Main Entry: per·snick·e·ty
Pronunciation: p&r-'sni-k&-tE
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of pernickety
Date: circa 1905
1 a : fussy about small details

That doesn't fit me very well. I probably should have used the word uppity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2001, 12:24 AM   #5
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
I think this is like going from a karate dojo that emphasizes etiquette and formality, to one that is dedicated to sport. The school I train at in Sheffield was great there was no discussion at all about sport and when we went for a drink afterwards one of the guys told me how he used some waza for self defense. The same can be said for the Tomiki dojo's where I live, there are only two, one i have been to has a lot of etiquette, with a kamiza. They have no sport at all, the closest school to these two is a 4 hour flight.
So you got a bad egg (in your view, not mine) but don't write of tomiki from one bad experience. The best 'ikkyo' (oshi taoshi) I have had done on me was by on of the senseis at Sheffield and none of the schools waza was sloppy, even the kyu's where great.
Dave I think you did a bad job at quoting me and I wanted some Tomiki students to clarify that first. But in defense of it, do the aikikai still practice everything Osensei did, I don't think so, Kisshomaru Ueshiba made some 'selective devolution' in there omote waza.

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2001, 11:07 AM   #6
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Quote:
Dave I think you did a bad job at quoting me and I wanted some Tomiki students to clarify that first. But in defense of it, do the aikikai still practice everything Osensei did, I don't think so, Kisshomaru Ueshiba made some 'selective devolution' in there omote waza.
In which thread did I quote you mate ?
(scratch that comment, you posted about Sutemi waza right ?)

All I was expressing was the fact that what was advertised (in the sports centre) was a Martial Art called 'Aikido'. I knew it was Tomiki ha and therefore sport based however, to call something 'Martial' surely it has to bear some resemblance to a martial discipline ? I'm not in any way being disrespectful of the Tomiki ha style, I think it has already been pointed out that I proberbly went to a club which does not place emphasis on any of the traditional values of a kamiza or mutual salutations, I just wanted to get a feel of whether this was the case generally.

Last edited by David Humm : 09-06-2001 at 11:11 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2001, 11:11 AM   #7
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
I am the guy who started the sutemi thread. You took what I want people to clarify and 'ran with it' as they might say. I was not sure if there were sutemi waza in tomiki as only one person told me there was so I wanted others to tell me if what I was told was in fact the truth.
(You posted just after me but Ill leave it here)

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2001, 12:33 PM   #8
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Your thoughts appreciated

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Humm
I was surprised to see the dojo had no kamiza,

It would help of course if I knew the name of the dojo and sensei but the first thought that comes to mind is that in a shared dojo it is pretty hard to maintain a kamiza.
Quote:

little emphasis was placed upon etiquette

Etiquette varies quite a bit and I must say that some dojos in the West are almost anal in their attempt to be Japanese. The most formal dojos I have been to have not been in Japan and of those in Japan Shodokan Honbu (Tomiki) was no more or less formal.
Quote:

following a short time on the mat it was clearly evident that the only thing that mattered was scoring points to win bouts

That's a pretty absolute statement to make after only a short time.

Again I don't know where you visited but frankly it does not sound like any Tomiki dojo I am familiar with. The styles founded by pre-war deshi are noted for their small direct movements and are generally considered more martially effective than many post-war stylists. If all you saw is randori (some clubs have randori only days) then I suggest you only saw a small part of the style. The point of randori and by extenstion shiai is to test your technique against a trained and resisting opponent. To do this safely certain compromises are made but these are more than made up for in the kata training which in my opinion is what defines Tomiki's style. Did you see the fundamentally flawed technique during randori? If so that only goes to show that beautiful picture perfect waza are damm difficult to perform under randori conditions.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2001, 08:51 AM   #9
jaemin
Dojo: Korea Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: South Korea
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 18
Offline
Re: Your thoughts appreciated

Tomiki ryu students may have their own
values and point of view about aikido.

It's meaningless to talk about such difference between aikikai and tomiki ryu.

All of us doing XXXX aikido. That's all.

(to wildaikido. one of my sensei also came from sheffield.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2001, 09:42 AM   #10
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Jaemin are you the school with the cool web site, most impressive, especially the mpegs, love them. First clips of an aikidoka doing ashi waza I have seen on the web. I was going to email your sensei about it but the site hasn't been updated for a while so I thought best not. Would really love to train at your school, looks very interesting, but the chances of me going to Korea are slim and none.

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2001, 06:41 PM   #11
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Many thanks for your replys,

I was not intending or in fact meant ANY disrespect through my post. The contents were based on my observations. This thread was started to educate myself and not to 'compare' directly the two methods of Aikido.

I hope to again visit the dojo where I practiced recently and I'm sure I will see things not seen in my last visit.


Kind regards

Dave.H
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 02:39 AM   #12
dainippon99
Dojo: Tulsa Aikido & Jujutsu
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 33
Offline
first of all, on the topic of a lack of kamiza, it will either be peter or i to say that tomiki's aikido is not ueshiba's. there is very little (none?) of ueshiba's spirituality in tomiki ryu. that is not to say that all tomiki dojo reject traditional etiquette. like it has already been said, most western dojo put an even higher emphasis than those in the west.

please dont think poorly of our budo. the sloppy shomen strikes are not a technique we teach. "sloppy shomen strike" is not part of our curriculum, nor are any of the other sloppy techniques you may see in a tomiki dojo (i have seen some AWFUL technique in non tomiki dojo, and have not made somewhat bold statements regarding their styles). nor will any hardcore tomiki dojo FOCUS on randori. tomiki never meant for his aikido to be "sport" aikido, or for it to be a sport in any way. he said that it was like painting the eyes on a paper tiger. it was to attract the younger crowds who would have a better chance of popularizing the art, while the true meat of the art is in the kata system.

Last edited by dainippon99 : 09-09-2001 at 02:44 AM.

Always be well,
Bobby David
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 07:38 AM   #13
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Quote:
first of all, on the topic of a lack of kamiza, it will either be peter or i to say that tomiki's aikido is not ueshiba's. there is very little (none?) of ueshiba's spirituality in tomiki ryu. that is not to say that all tomiki dojo reject traditional etiquette. like it has already been said, most western dojo put an even higher emphasis than those in the west.
Did not Tomiki sensei learn his art from O'sensei ? As such to say that Tomiki Aikido is not Ueshiba's is a travesty. Aikido is Aikido regardless of the 'style'. Yes I accept that Tomiki Sensei developed 'his' Aikido along a different path to that of Aikikai however, are you saying that not having a framed photo of Tomiki Sensei at the Shomen of the Dojo and performing a bow at the begining and at the end of a class is acceptable in what is still classed as a 'Martial Art' ? I'm not Japanese but I feel basic etiquette is essential, neither am I 'anal' in my attempt to maintain what I consider to be a very important part of the class session and, to understand (as was the purpose of my orignal post) if the lack of this etiquette in the dojo I visited was 'standard' throughout, I have already learned this is not the case.

Dave.H
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 11:45 AM   #14
drbeat17
Dojo: Karl Geis Aikido, Judo, Jodo
Location: Katy TX
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 7
Offline
I don' t know about all that...

I am attending Karl Geis's dojo and we study the Tomiki style Aikido. I'll admit that there was little etiquette in the form of bowing or stooping down to the Instructor, that isn't where the respect is needed most. The the place where respect is needed most is in on the mat while learning from your master and teachers. As for scoring points my dojo doesn't practice for points. We do have randori but it is a small part of what we do. We have no interest in competition for Aikido. To learn more about Tomiki style you could visit www.karlgeis.com if you want to.


db
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 12:32 PM   #15
David Humm
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 269
United Kingdom
Offline
Thx mate..

look forward to visiting your site
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 01:28 PM   #16
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
[i]Originally posted by dainippon99
please dont think poorly of our budo. the sloppy shomen strikes are not a technique we teach. "sloppy shomen strike" is not part of our curriculum, nor are any of the other sloppy techniques you may see in a tomiki dojo (i have seen some AWFUL technique in non tomiki dojo, and have not made somewhat bold statements regarding their styles).
Dude, you are getting over-serious here. That's my job!

If you hunt around you'll find that I was actually complimentary of what I saw although I don't remember what thread it was. I simply found the incident amusing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2001, 02:32 PM   #17
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Dave;

There are a lot of past threads on the subject both here and on AikidoJournal. The latter has a great series of articles on Ueshiba and those most intimately connected with him. I would suggest you go there before you speak further.

Summarizing (and this includes paraphrasing by high ranking Aikikai folks on the lists and Aikikai shihans to me directly.

There was a change in emphasis of Ueshiba M after the war when he was already an old man. None of the uchideshi, especially the pre-war ones, were particularily interested in Ueshiba M.s religion and the master himself did not make his religion a requirement to study Aikido. His son, Ueshiba K. and other of the post war students took Aikido in a direction different than it was before.


As Stanley Pranin says in his Artilce on Tomiki - he rooted his Aikido firmly in historical Budo. There is no travesty to say that Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido is not Aikikai (Ueshiba) Aikido. The latter went in a different direction - although the root is the same.

We have bowing to Shomen and sensei at the beginning and end of class, there (at least in Honbu) is a bow to begin and finish training with a particular partner. In addition there is a loud verbal please and thankyou with each bow to a person. These actions (with some variation) are common to most gendai budos in Japan. There is no heavy shintoistic clapping. At the class of the Osaka Aikikai Shihan I think he clapped once. In Okinawan Karate there was no bowing at all, and the one time I trained at a Koryu dojo we just bowed ourselves into the dojo and started training. Ettiquette was buying a round of beer afterward.

When I refer to anal I refer to what I saw - I have no idea how you practice. I have been lectured on how the Japanese behave by people who knew that I had lived, worked and trained there for almost six years with "ettiquete" which I found way over the top.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thoughts on Aiki Expo '05 by SeiserL SeiserL Seminars 10 12-15-2006 05:38 PM
Article: AikiSolutions: Blending with Negative Emotions and Thoughts by Lynn Seiser AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 07-20-2006 04:32 PM
test cutting? what are your thoughts? Tenor_Jon Weapons 2 08-02-2005 08:32 AM
What are your thoughts on Tomiki Aikido? JamesC General 13 06-28-2004 02:19 AM
Aiki Expo Thoughts (Long!) akiy Seminars 5 09-29-2003 11:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:12 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate