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Old 01-12-2007, 07:51 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Thank you for the clarifications, Erick!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-12-2007, 09:58 AM   #27
odudog
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I agree, generally -- inside, outside.

uchi 内 soto 外

uchi = "one's own house" is 家

There are two other kanji also used for "uchi" = "inside" 裡 and 中 , but I do not know the connotations of the first one, the latter is "inside" in the sense of "in the middle."

The only quibble I would mention is that the arm is not necessarily always there, as it is, for instance in, say, throwing in kaitennage or receiving yokmenuchi attacks. And sometimes you do go under the arm with a soto turn where you do not with an uchi turn for the same technique.

For example, most people begin training for yokomenuchi shihonage receiving with an uchi turn (closing the book - inward), but you never go underneath the arm. To receive yokomenuchi with a soto turn you do go underneath the arm -- but you are definitely making a soto turn (opening the book - outward).
This kanji 中 to me is pronounced as either naka or chu. I'll have to investigage my wife's dictionaries to see if it is also proununced as uchi. The uchi and soto movements to me always mean how I am moving around uke's arm. So when I do yokomenuchi shihonage ura, the movement is soto, however when I do yokomenuchi shihonage omote, the movement is uchi. Part of the problem could be just how we are taught or interpret the words for our Aikido. Tohei Sensei changed a lot of the words for the movements when the split occured even though the movements were the same.
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Old 01-12-2007, 10:27 AM   #28
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote:
This kanji 中 to me is pronounced as either naka or chu. I'll have to investigage my wife's dictionaries to see if it is also proununced as uchi.
"Uchi" has one "official" kanji: 内. The other three, 家, 中, and 裡, are all commonly used in different contexts, but are considered "non-standard".
Quote:
The uchi and soto movements to me always mean how I am moving around uke's arm. So when I do yokomenuchi shihonage ura, the movement is soto, however when I do yokomenuchi shihonage omote, the movement is uchi. Part of the problem could be just how we are taught or interpret the words for our Aikido. Tohei Sensei changed a lot of the words for the movements when the split occured even though the movements were the same.
FWIW, soto/uchi is mentioned 5 times in Saito Morihiro's "Takemusu Aikido" series. Three times are in reference to morotetori; grabbing the opposite hand from the inside being "uchi", and grabbing the same-side hand from the outside being "soto". Another reference is for katatetori kaiten-nage: stepping under the arm is "uchi", tenkan'ing around the arm is "soto". Finally, there's a soto/uchi variation for ryotetori kokyu-nage. In the example, nage tenkan's from migi-hanmi (right foot forward). Bringing the left hand inside uke's right hand was the "uchi", and keeping it on the outside of uke's hand was the "soto".

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 01-12-2007, 08:19 PM   #29
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote:
So when I do yokomenuchi shihonage ura, the movement is soto, however when I do yokomenuchi shihonage omote, the movement is uchi.
You are not necessarily limited to ura waza just by the soto turn. Passing underneath the arm in the sort of uke nagashi that allows the soto turn you still have the option of moving omote or ura. If your blend in engaging the attack in the soto turn is not really smooth, however, the attack may lose its momentum (and your forearm may get bruised) and omote will be harder than the ura side.

You can also do the initial uchi turn and still go to the ura side for the throw, but again momentum is the key because it works best when you have uke's kuzushi at the first contact, and omote is easier if you lose uke's momentum.

That may be why the variations you mention are typically taught as the kihon most places (as I was), because they are less dependent on the conservation of momentum, which requires much more "feel" for the interaction.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-14-2007, 06:12 AM   #30
Chikai Aikidoka
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Thanks Erik!

wow!

No wonder shodan is considered the 'first step'.
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:22 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Nice post Erick, thanks!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-16-2007, 09:56 AM   #32
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Re: Irimi or Omote?!!!

Hi Erick,

I think the variations you listed below are only 12 with 2x2 repeated ones adding up to 16.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
........
Receiving........... Sending

Irimi omote........Tenkan soto
Irimi ura............Tenkan soto
Irimi omote........Tenkan uchi
Irimi ura ...........Tenkan uchi
Irimi omote........Irimi omote
Irimi ura............Irimi ura
Irimi omote........Irimi omote
Irimi ura.............Irimi ura

Tenkan soto.......Irimi omote
Tenkan uchi.......Irimi ura
Tenkan soto.......Irimi omote
Tenkan uchi.......Irimi ura
Tenkan soto.......Tenkan uchi
Tenkan uchi.......Tenkan uchi
Tenkan soto.......Tenkan soto
Tenkan uchi.......Tenkan soto
Shouldn't the "Sending" Irimis corresponding to the last 3 "Receiving" Irimis of the above list be as follow:

Irimi ura............Irimi omote
Irimi omote........Irimi ura
Irimi ura.............Irimi ura

and the "Sending" Irimis corresponding to the first 3 "Receiving" Tenkans of the above list be as follow:

Tenkan uchi.......Irimi omote
Tenkan soto.......Irimi ura
Tenkan uchi.......Irimi ura

This way, we have 16 variation. Right?

It will be nice if u can draw a football-like chart of the "Receiving"/"Sending" variation of your katate dori kotegaeshi experiment Will ur defense team ticker then be , , or ???
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