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Old 12-03-2006, 07:18 AM   #26
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Train of thought

Resistance can be logical.
It is illogical to stand in front of nage and just hold strongly with no concern about getting punched. It is illlogical to to muscle nage when you know just where they are going because the both of you are practicing a set technique.

Resisting technique could be done in randori...where you don't fall if you don't lose your balance. Like the rest of Aikido being a good uke is complicated.......that is what makes it so interesting.

I understand that some folks are interested in seeing if technique works when really attacked......I know it does.....I don't separate my training from my life....I use Aikido all the time....(thought I do lose my center from time to time. ) The very cool thing is that I can just get it back....without judgement.

My Aikido training has taught me never to get into an altercation with a person who can and wants to kick my ass.....that is a bad combination of a person and contrary to how people talk on this board..there are not very many of them in my world. And my training keeps me out of their world. (so far.... )

On another note.....on my first post I was attempting to be humorous(hence my smileys) and still make a point. I appreciate the kind responses to my rant...I read about this subject because it does interest me...I respond because I disagree.....or agree just like anyone else.

Dan and Mike are big guys...they can take a little ribbing from me.....and Ron thank you for calling me impolite...I was way too polite for years and it got me nowhere and even hurt sometimes. .

Watching that video with the old guy made me feel sad for him...and for his students.....I wish I could understand what was being said so I could know the context of the whole thing. Often things are not as they appear.
Best,
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 12-03-2006 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:44 AM   #27
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Train of thought

I believe that aikido offers a wonderful outlet for gentle and even timid people to come out of their shells, to engage in a controlled amount of physicality and to develop a level of self-confidence that they had lacked.

Probably, one could gain these benefits in various non-violent, non-aggressive, non-contact sports, such as swimming, but aikido provides a nice balance of athleticism (rolling, etc.) and having to be in physical contact with other people in a non-threatening way.

Aikido dojo vary in "personality," but there are many that provide the non-confrontational physicality, cooperative and non-aggressive environment that is appropropriate for people of gentle temperament. That's the beauty of it. I'm glad you could find just the right fit to suit your needs, Mary.

Please note, though, that aikido may also be more "intense," physically and "martially" depending on the nature of the individuals who are teaching. I've been in aikido dojo where the level of intensity might be off-putting to someone seeking only a tranquil, meditative pursuit.

It's all good, in my opinion. You seek and find the environment that best fits your individual needs. For that reason, don't feel you must chastise the Big Boys who like to rock 'n' roll and extol the virtues of the things they love. They may seem rambunctious of manner, but they are just singing their own song, like you. There's room for many different songs in these forums.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:11 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Train of thought

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
Dan and Mike are big guys...they can take a little ribbing from me.....and Ron thank you for calling me impolite...I was way too polite for years and it got me nowhere and even hurt sometimes. .

Watching that video with the old guy made me feel sad for him...and for his students.....I wish I could understand what was being said so I could know the context of the whole thing. Often things are not as they appear.
And often they are exactly what they appear, but people try to see something else. There's a lot of talk about being "spiritual", but being really spiritual is actually more akin to an unflinching recognition of things for what they really are, not pseudo-self-help too-positive view of life.

And how do you know I didn't have to cry myself to sleep last night from your "ribbing", Mary?????

Here's a little lesson for us on "reality and ma-ai".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...20501039834015

Mike
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:53 AM   #29
Mike Collins
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Re: Train of thought

There is a lesson: Stupid action has a charge. Cute though.
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Old 12-03-2006, 01:36 PM   #30
heathererandolph
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Re: Train of thought

I think in Aikido we learn to harmonize with uke's energy and also to move around his resistance. Part of dealing with resistance is just to learn more about how to move people. Every skill that we learn is useful. To me part of Aikido is to be more open minded, so it's possible to accept both ends of the spectrum.
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Old 12-03-2006, 02:31 PM   #31
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Train of thought

Heather,
By all indications, if you look into the training and skills of M. Ueshiba, his aikido originally involved meeting uke's energy, joining with and utilizing it, not doing tenkan around it and bleeding it away. This is actually more in harmony than moving away from resistance, because you are joining with uke's body and your "two become as one," so to speak.

Aikido as it is practiced now, however, is as you say.
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Old 12-03-2006, 05:39 PM   #32
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Train of thought

I've had it said to me on various occasions that every tenkan first has irimi....and you're not "getting out of the way" either.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:06 AM   #33
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
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Re: Train of thought

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Heather,
By all indications, if you look into the training and skills of M. Ueshiba, his aikido originally involved meeting uke's energy, joining with and utilizing it, not doing tenkan around it and bleeding it away. This is actually more in harmony than moving away from resistance, because you are joining with uke's body and your "two become as one," so to speak.

Aikido as it is practiced now, however, is as you say.

Tenkan or irimi they are two sides of the same coin, both strategies of meeting the attacker 'head on' with non resistance. Irimi is used more often the better one gets at aikido. This is due to better utilisation of mai ai ( Mike's clip aptly shows the importance of this little martial skill ) timing and mental intent.

"Aikido as it is practiced now, however, is as you say" It seems that aikido is practiced in numerous different ways, from the soft moving meditation to the hard martial/street combat. I had no idea until I came to this forum that the practice of aikido was so wide. I had assumed that what I was practicing was "the" aikido. Now I realise that I learn the aikido my teacher teaches, and I practice my aikido

I do find it interesting that the "Big Boy's" who have so much to say about the shortcomings of aikido and how it is practiced, don't actually practice aikido themselves. Maybe in their eyes aikido is so lacking it is for them not worth doing. Not that I disagree with what they are saying, rather some of the generalisations that are made about the way aikido is practiced nowadays. Non of aikido's detractor's can make claims that cover 'all' akidoka, there are just too many of them.

For me a commitment to exploring the practice of aikido is worth while, and how others choose to go about it is really up to them. It should be available to young and old alike, frail and strong, all can benefit from an art form that can help co-ordinate mind/body/spirit.
For those who think that aikido should be full on street combat effective I say - good for you, but don't think that 'hard' training is the only way to achieve 'effective' training. For those who feel that aikido is purely a moving meditation, I say good for you, but make it clear to the students that this is what is being practiced, so that they don't feel that they are prepared for something they are not. As the students of the kiai 'master' in the unfortunate video clip would surely be.

Just a few thoughts for a Monday morning.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:29 AM   #34
DH
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Re: Train of thought

Good morning Mark
I am just as eager to point out the true potential of AIkido as well. And have done so repeatedly.
Its not that I won't do it, I canlt anymore. I'd have to give up. It would go against everything I have trained for.

One one level, as a martial art, it's too lacking for me.
I'd settle for
1. Better external fighting skills; heavy hand punching and use of the legs in throwing, trapping, tripping and kicking, better chokes and ground techniques. then I could have fun playing.
Or
2. The internal skills that made the lesser Martial skills of Aikido so potent to being with.

Most who are adept at either of the above are going to be an overwhelming handful for most.
I think if Aikidoka adopted the second method it would be one of the more potent arts today. And to stay on track with the Ukemi thread going on as well. It would completely change the the training method and make the type of ukemi and the need for it a different animal all together.
Those in Aikido who wish to symbolize the robes and imperturbable collected whole of the warrior monk -who do not deign to use grosser technique. They would at least have some true power to back up that picture.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-04-2006 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:44 AM   #35
Mark Freeman
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Re: Train of thought

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Good morning Mark

One one level, as a martial art it, is too lacking for me.
I'd settle for
1. Better external fighting skills; heavy hand punching and use of the legs in throwing, trapping, tripping and kicking, better chokes and ground techniques. then I could have fun playing.
Or
2. The internal skills that made the lesser Martial skills of Aikido so potent to being with.

Most who are adept at either of the above are going to be an overwhelming handful for most.
I think if Aikidoka adopted the second method it would be one of the more potent arts today.
Cheers
Dan
Blimey Dan you're up early

thanks for your reply though and your straightforward honesty. I personally spend my time practicing No 2 and while respecting those who do No 1, I think I'll master 2 before I even go there

No 3 is practicing aikido for the sheer joy inherent in the practice itself. No fighting, no winners, no losers, just fast focussed dynamic movement, throw and be thrown. There is no room for thinking about the relative merits of style, ukemi, what would someone else have done etc etc, as you are too busy just getting on with the practice.

At the end of the day I don't care if I am martially effective or not, I'm having too much fun practicing aikido to worry about things like that

cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:13 AM   #36
DH
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Re: Train of thought

I can see the fun of it. I remember catching air, feeling the lift or the hole... and all that.
I just can't see how I can do what I do and do that.
It's like your question to Gernot about breaking center. Its really breaking structure. If you have it. It is going to take someone with significant skills to move you... if at all. And you have to give that up...to play. I'm still to obessed with working on perfecting it in me to want to give it up for a second.
Give me a few more decades. I'm sure I'll be better at 70.

Cheers
Dan
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