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Old 11-28-2006, 01:32 PM   #76
billybob
 
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Others more worthy have responded to Giancarlo DiPierro. Sir, I would simply add that before you assume you have acheived legendary status you consider that perhaps Saotome Sensei had a bad day. Believe me I'm being extraordinarily generous.

My current Shihan said "You can't do anything to me from here".
This was twenty years ago and being a punk I crushed through his ikyo and threw him in koshi nage. He kicked me in the face. Our relationship has improved slightly since then. My point is that however good my koshinage was or becomes - Messores Sensei is a finer martial artist than I will ever be. I've become smart enough not to make him prove it anymore.

David
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:38 PM   #77
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Others more worthy have responded to Giancarlo DiPierro. Sir, I would simply add that before you assume you have acheived legendary status you consider that perhaps Saotome Sensei had a bad day. Believe me I'm being extraordinarily generous.

My current Shihan said "You can't do anything to me from here".
This was twenty years ago and being a punk I crushed through his ikyo and threw him in koshi nage. He kicked me in the face. Our relationship has improved slightly since then. My point is that however good my koshinage was or becomes - Messores Sensei is a finer martial artist than I will ever be. I've become smart enough not to make him prove it anymore.

David
You can tell i'm young because I would concider someone saying "You can't do anything to me from here" a challenge LOL. I try not to talk in absolutes like that.

- Don
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:44 PM   #78
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
So in my mind, having someone grab you then stand there while you work a technique is really counter productive to real life.
I don't think that in aikido dojo we are trying to imitate or even get closer to real life situation . It is rather kind of labo, where in artificial environment we have a chance to study.

I regularly practice this sort of grabs that was described in this particular situation. Such attack has nothing to do with proving the superiority. It is simply static modeling of first moment of contact -- I'd say 'frozen' first half a second of contact. Of course, as you and Cady wrote, just before that moment there is something happened that can be added/used, but as we are in labo, we can also study it as separate set up.

Good news are -- yes, knowing well body mechanics, it is always possible to do given technique, even against experienced attacker that trying shut up your technique or even countering actively.

Bad news are -- one must practice it very often and with positive spirit because it is very frustrating activity.

You may ask question we should we set up such artificial environment? -- well, first, such study will discover the most efficient movement, vectors and leverages, that allow efficiently redirect in very slowly speed the attack done by stronger and more experienced attacker. Repeating such exercise will allow incorporate it to the body so after, with increasing speed, one will do it without even bothering about such triviality. Yes, after the while, it become trivial and not worth greater attention situation. Then one can move to more sophisticated skills.

But some pedagogical systems prefer to shortcut it, or replace it by kicks or atemi, and the results are real disaster.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2006, 01:45 PM   #79
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: To Slap the Ground or Not

Hello Tom,
Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
I don't think it would be accurate to call Mr. DiPierro's claim spurious without first checking with Mr. Saotome about his recollection (if any) of the exchange.
I started training with Saotome-sensei in 1984, when I was a nidan in Uechi-ryu karate-do. I have taken ukemi for him many times since then. I met Giancarlo when he came to a Winter Camp at the DC dojo several years ago, and I practiced with him a few times during the camp. Having put my hands on both of them, I am quite satisfied that Giancarlo's story is spurious.

Giancarlo's purpose in spreading this story seems similar to the bio on his website identifying himself as a student of Kanai-sensei, despite the fact that he never took ukemi or received any rank from Kanai-sensei. It's a pathetic attempt to inflate his reputation by associating himself, no matter how tentatively, with someone who is genuinely skilled.

Jim
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:01 PM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Yikes!

Ain't this a seperate thread?

B,
R

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Old 11-28-2006, 02:02 PM   #81
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

I totally agree with Sorrentino Sensei and I will discuss this with Saotome Shihan. The principal reason is to let him and every other senior ASU instructor know this message has gone out over an international forum. I had opportunities to train with Saotome Shihan one on one and I was free to do what ever I wanted to try. I have seen Saotome Shihan handle a 6" 8" 276 pound football player who did not have cooperation on his mind. I have seen him deal with the big and the bad without much effort on his part and no give on their part. There was a reason a lot of us went over to him when he came to America. We had been with the Shihans that were here and we saw in him something different. We do not take slights to him easily but we don't defend him either. He needs no defending by us. We do however take exception at insolent comments.

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 11-28-2006 at 02:06 PM.

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Old 11-28-2006, 02:05 PM   #82
Fred Little
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Thanks for the input, Rob, Fred, Don and Dennis. By "committed," I mean, is the person putting strength in their arms and hands as they grab, with their body in it, too? It's not just a limp-armed, limp-handed clasp, is it? I'm thinking that if they are stepping forward, reaching and grabbing to pull or even to shove you, there should be some energy in their action, yes?

If yes, do you try to capture that incoming energy and use it?
Yes! Cady, that's exactly what I mean when I say "committed."

My category of "uncommitted" includes both "limp-armed, limp-handed" and something that isn't limp, but has no pull or shove or attempt to attack in any way.

And while I find working with those "uncommitted" grabs difficult and rewarding, the nature of the experiment is very, very different from one involving a "committed" attack.

If two partners are working in different paradigms, the result is pretty useless for all concerned, which is why I think instructors need to be much clearer about what they expect from "uke's" attacks than is typically the case.

Best,

FL
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:10 PM   #83
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
We do however take exception at insolent comments.
As do I. I'll refrain from further comment on such posts until we have Saotome's side of the story.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:41 PM   #84
ChrisMoses
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Hmm, a commited grab. It has not been in my personal experience that one grabs with the intent of just holding on. They usually grab with the intent to pull you closer, control a part of your body while they move, or to push you away. So in my mind, having someone grab you then stand there while you work a technique is really counter productive to real life. [snip]

So I guess my point is that a grab is not a commited attack (with the possible exception of grabbing to prevent a weapon being drawn, which at the range most grabs in aikido happen is not really realistic either). A grab should be part of another entire attack. If someone grabbed my hand strongly and stood there, I have no reason to use aikido. I am in no danger, there is no threat, and I could simply strike him to get him to move or let go. If a guy grabbed my hand strongly, pulled hard to bring me into his oncomming right fist, that is a committed attack, and one that requires me to act.
I think this is an area of much confusion in Aikido circles. What exactly makes a grab an attack and what responses are beneficial to ones study? First I would assert that there should be a difference in intent between a static grab and one done from motion. If one is training from a static position, I believe the grab should be done such that it both limits nage's ability to move freely and at least attempts to touch nage's center/core. This kind of grab offers nage an environment to explore the structural aspects of the technique that I believe are foundational to any kind of dynamic waza. This kind of grab can also be traced back to nihon jujutsu's roots, where most grabs were done to limit ones ability to deploy a weapon. The challenge then for nage is to be able to find a way to move freely without opening themselves up to a further attack by uke. This scenario is common to many various lines of jujutsu and sogo bugei. If you'd like a good example watch the kaeshiwaza that Toby Threadgill performed at the first AikiExpo. Uke grabs to keep Toby from drawing his sword -> kansetsu or nagewaza performed by nage -> sword is drawn and a finishing blow is struck. This progression is also clear in older pictures of Aikido and Daito Ryu. Note how in all of the Noma dojo photos, OSensei has one hand raised in preparation for a finishing move at the end of each set.

I would agree however that when one moves to more dynamic attacks that the grab should be part of some greater strategy. Your judo example is good, I used to struggle when teaching futarigake/randori to get people to understand that stiff arming nage and then just resisting being thrown wasn't really in keeping with what that exercise had to teach.

I think many of us in aikido gloss over the first (static) phase but even when it is practiced, it's often done in an overly cooperative fashion. This leads to sloppy techniques that rely too heavily on timing and strength rather than developing specific internal structure in nage and greater depth of understanding as to the mechanics of throwing.

I would like to point out though how much I hate the "atemi get out of jail" card. If you're practicing slowly or from static and can't throw someone, it's often a golden opportunity to study how that technique really works *structurally*. Kicking or punching uke to soften them up is used way too often to cover up sloppy technique. The way I look at it, if I'm attacking you, I'm touching your center. If you can't throw me, and I'm still touching your center through my grab, I already won that encounter, so the fact that I'm not just dumping you means that I'm offering you the opportunity to study what's going on. In the time it takes for you to get frustrated and finally try some atemi, I could have finished the encounter. I'm also not opposed to atemi, almost all of the stuff we do includes some form of atemi, but it's a lot different than what I've seen at most Aikido dojos.

Finally, these comments are specifically NOT directed at the described encounter with Saotome Sensei. I wasn't there and don't know all of the parties in question, so please don't read any of these comments as applying there.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:43 PM   #85
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

It would be a pity if that were the final word. Dan Harden was talking earlier about 'never give up, never surrender' ukemi, and the thread is titled 'non compliant ukemi'.

May I ask how one harnesses the ki power of the opponent if one is being aggressive? I began to learn 'judo' when I became spontaneous and started 'inventing' throws - of course the instructor had a name for each one. More importantly, I was able to roll off the back of an attacker, find my feet while still moving with their momentum and use their throw to throw them. This was AFTER a thorough grounding in traditional breakfall ukemi. If you train people to 'fight fight fight' how can they relax and absorb their opponent's ki?

David
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Old 11-28-2006, 03:05 PM   #86
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

That is a great question, David. I hope Dan sees it and responds.

Don't confuse "fighting" with "stiff and rigid." The more relaxed you are, but with focused intent ("relaxed tension" -- the way in which you are distributing internal weight, muscle tension and other factors) the better you move and the more access you have to your and your opponent's energy. You can effect this state whether you are receiving an attack or initiating it -- being the aggressor.

When being the aggressor, you just...enter and control. There are points of entry for this on the human body, and at any given moment of contact you are entering and seizing control through those points.
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Old 11-28-2006, 03:46 PM   #87
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
I had opportunities to train with Saotome Shihan one on one and I was free to do what ever I wanted to try. I have seen Saotome Shihan handle a 6" 8" 276 pound football player who did not have cooperation on his mind. I have seen him deal with the big and the bad without much effort on his part and no give on their part.
Hi Dennis,
For thirty years I have had the great fortune to attack Saotome Sensei... grabbing striking, whatever. On static technique he encouraged me to try and stop him. I have given it my all. As you know, I am about 2 1/2 times his size in terms of mass. I have never come close to "stopping" him. I counted it as a big victory if I even was able to force him to make even some small adjustment; usually he just did the technique like I wasn't even there. Ikeda Sensei, who has the strongest grabbing attack I have ever felt, can't stop him. So I don't think we have to worry much about claims from some guy none of us even recognize.

Almost all of us who teach have had the experience of having someone with an attitude try and show us up. I am happy to have someone grab me as hard as they can and if the exercise is a static technique they are welcome to test me out. But it should be done with the right attitude; the desire to learn. Someone wants to make it a contest, I am not interested. I'll ignore them after that. You can usually tell when people are messing with you rather than sincerely wishing to feel the technique.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:21 PM   #88
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Ukemi in Aikido is almost always over-compliant is it not?
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:51 PM   #89
crbateman
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
Ukemi in Aikido is almost always over-compliant is it not?
Don't forget that ukemi are useful from another perspective... They are designed as defensive techniques, to help uke avoid injury to himself, keep himself oriented, and return to an effective posture as quickly as practical. They aren't just about making nage look good. I can recall stories about people using their ukemi to self-rescue from falls down stairs, off streetcars, etc. It's good to be somewhat resistive for the benefit of nage, but not too resistive.
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:45 PM   #90
eyrie
 
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

There are several facets to ukemi, self-preservation being of the lowest order of skill and importance. I would like to emphasize the following part of Chris's excellent post here:
Quote:
The way I look at it, if I'm attacking you, I'm touching your center. If you can't throw me, and I'm still touching your center through my grab, I already won that encounter, so the fact that I'm not just dumping you means that I'm offering you the opportunity to study what's going on.
... and add that the role of Uke in facilitating a conducive shared learning experience is paramount, and that falling over to protect yourself or being a fall dummy is on the "low-end" of the scale that you'd wanna be at.

Ignatius
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Old 11-29-2006, 05:25 AM   #91
Mark Freeman
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
Ukemi in Aikido is almost always over-compliant is it not?
Too general a statement for me, and 'over' compliant too open to misinterpretation.

For me, the aspect of ukemi that has opened up the richest vein to mine is the 'following'. This is where I feel the 'art' of aikido lies. To truely follow, one must be fully co-ordinated, light on your feet, quick, focused, aware, flexible and commited. When this happens, you are either easy to throw ( if aiki is present ) or virtually impossible to throw ( if it isn't ).

I don't know how much relative attention other aikidoka pay to this aspect, some I'm sure may be more but many I guess would be less. I do not at present cross train, but I have had students from other styles come and train with me, and while they recognise the shapes and names of the exercises, they don't seem to focus on the following as much as I have been trained to do.

In the early stages of training, most ukemi is neccessarily compliant, even over compliant, we have to learn the shapes, we have to learn how to follow, we have to become co-ordinated, we have to learn how to stay safe.

If I am demonstrating and want to show the relative merits of co-ordination against resistance, it is an easy task to get uke to clamp down hard, thereby creating tension, and thereby lose their co-ordination, it's not difficult to move someone, if your co-ordination is superior to theirs, as George Ledyard pointed out above.

My guess is that Dan would be clamping down 'soft' and therefore would be a bugger to move

regards,

Mark

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Old 11-29-2006, 07:18 AM   #92
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

qq

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 11-29-2006 at 07:29 AM.

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Old 11-29-2006, 10:19 AM   #93
Mike Sigman
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Hmm, a commited grab. It has not been in my personal experience that one grabs with the intent of just holding on. They usually grab with the intent to pull you closer, control a part of your body while they move, or to push you away. So in my mind, having someone grab you then stand there while you work a technique is really counter productive to real life. You should either intercept the grab before it happens, or once grabbed the uke should begin to pull you or push you, or move in a natural fashion to continue the attack. The grab itself is only a small part of a single committed attack. It is a setup for an attack, but not an attack itself.
I agree with Don on this. I think what Dan, Giancarlo, and perhaps Cady by extension, are hinting at is the ability to screw with someone by various degrees of grounding-out and "neutralizing" the opponent's moves. It's a cute trick to someone who doesn't know the trick, but it's essentially just a variant of Tohei's "ki demonstrations" where he stands there against a push. It's certainly a useable factor in combat practice (and it should commonly be in Aikido... obviously it's not).... but it's not more than a first step in basic jin/kokyu practice. Used against someone with equally good skills or against some fairly strong guy who doesn't want to play silly games, it won't do much more than momentarily stymie the technique. In other words, like so many other things, it's useful as heck, but it doesn't guarantee anything.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:50 AM   #94
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

I had a friend who was studying aikido and judo. After two years of aikido he was at judo training. He remarked to me near the end of class that "none of these guys can throw me."

Unimpressed, I replied "but have you thrown any of them?"

It seemed kind of 'cheating' to block throws and not be interested in taking the other's center. That's not 'the game' we play in judo randori.

I told this story to a judo master about twelve years ago. He used it as a possible explanation for why I was unsuccessful in the business world. Hmmm.

david

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Old 11-29-2006, 11:28 AM   #95
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

I'd like to comment about ressisting a technique.
As many have said here, resisting a technique that you know is coming, is very easy if you are as phisically strong or stronger than the person performing the technique. If you can overpower him/her making a specific pre-stablished technique is imposible. You can stop Any shihan, master, great super master, o'sensei and god. There's nothing special about it.
And that's true not only to aikido but any martial art or combative sport.
For example, a boxer tells you in advance he's gonna throw a cross to your jaw, so you expect the punch and you block it. Well there's nothing spectacular abouit it, you knew it was coming. This doesn't make you any better or boxing not useful. Or a BJJ that tells you he's gonna try an armbar and you just overpower the technique before it successfully performed. Any one strong enough can do that. That doesn mean BJJ is useless.
Obviously when two people agree to a specific technique is to train, learn proper mechanics, not to challange or compete, just train proper movement. So from this point of view it's silly and even unproductive to stop a technique by any means, using muscle strengh or changing the agreed conditions of the practice.
Now, don't misunderstan me, this doesn't mean that uke should give a weak attack or be passive and be compliant or even worst, just throw him/herself to the mat or into the lock. That's not good for tori's improvement either, because if uke just goes to the ground byhim/herself or just doesn't generate any force with which to work, tori wont be able to train proper mechanics either.
So Uke should give a strong, committed, attack and limit the attack to what is need for the technique to happen. If tori uses good mechanis technique is gonna happen, if tori doesn't have good mechanics then uke must keep his/her balanced and strong posture, but without changing the agreed condition of the practice.

If uke just resist an agreed technique and agreed conditions by rearenging his position, or re-structuring his body in such a way that he/she can overpower a technique, tori should change the technique, applly a strong atemi or use his/her own non-agreed way to weaken uke's structure. If uke "cheats", Tori should "cheat" too

Now if the aikidoka is not requiered to do an specific technique, so you're working against someone who wants to defeat you (just in a friendly challange, or competition, or a fight, or any reason) then the aikidoka should not "try to do a technique", aikidoka should let the most appropiate technique "to happen" under the conditions present at that specific moment.
For example (a simplistic one though), if someone grabs you with the right hand from the collar and pulls, stretching his arm, for aikidoka to try to do nikkyo would be unuppropriate, the coditions are set better for Rokkyo, Hijikime(?) (I'm not good with names) I mean an arm bar on the extended elbow.
Now from the same initial attack, if this attacker tried also to puch you in the face with the left hand, he would need to bend his right elbow the get closer to the target, in this moment, the attacker himself created the condition for nikkyo to happen.
I think is importat to realice that an Aikidoka doesn't try to do a technique, but aikido techniques "happen by themselves" due to specific condition created by the attacker. The aikidoist is just "a tool" or "an instrument" for the techniques to happen.
Nothing mystical, ethereal, supernatural, or hidden magical forces or anything like that though. Only correct body mechanis and physics.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:56 AM   #96
DonMagee
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
I'd like to comment about ressisting a technique.
As many have said here, resisting a technique that you know is coming, is very easy if you are as phisically strong or stronger than the person performing the technique. If you can overpower him/her making a specific pre-stablished technique is imposible. You can stop Any shihan, master, great super master, o'sensei and god. There's nothing special about it.
And that's true not only to aikido but any martial art or combative sport.
For example, a boxer tells you in advance he's gonna throw a cross to your jaw, so you expect the punch and you block it. Well there's nothing spectacular abouit it, you knew it was coming. This doesn't make you any better or boxing not useful. Or a BJJ that tells you he's gonna try an armbar and you just overpower the technique before it successfully performed. Any one strong enough can do that. That doesn mean BJJ is useless.
Obviously when two people agree to a specific technique is to train, learn proper mechanics, not to challange or compete, just train proper movement. So from this point of view it's silly and even unproductive to stop a technique by any means, using muscle strengh or changing the agreed conditions of the practice.
Now, don't misunderstan me, this doesn't mean that uke should give a weak attack or be passive and be compliant or even worst, just throw him/herself to the mat or into the lock. That's not good for tori's improvement either, because if uke just goes to the ground byhim/herself or just doesn't generate any force with which to work, tori wont be able to train proper mechanics either.
So Uke should give a strong, committed, attack and limit the attack to what is need for the technique to happen. If tori uses good mechanis technique is gonna happen, if tori doesn't have good mechanics then uke must keep his/her balanced and strong posture, but without changing the agreed condition of the practice.

If uke just resist an agreed technique and agreed conditions by rearenging his position, or re-structuring his body in such a way that he/she can overpower a technique, tori should change the technique, applly a strong atemi or use his/her own non-agreed way to weaken uke's structure. If uke "cheats", Tori should "cheat" too

Now if the aikidoka is not requiered to do an specific technique, so you're working against someone who wants to defeat you (just in a friendly challange, or competition, or a fight, or any reason) then the aikidoka should not "try to do a technique", aikidoka should let the most appropiate technique "to happen" under the conditions present at that specific moment.
For example (a simplistic one though), if someone grabs you with the right hand from the collar and pulls, stretching his arm, for aikidoka to try to do nikkyo would be unuppropriate, the coditions are set better for Rokkyo, Hijikime(?) (I'm not good with names) I mean an arm bar on the extended elbow.
Now from the same initial attack, if this attacker tried also to puch you in the face with the left hand, he would need to bend his right elbow the get closer to the target, in this moment, the attacker himself created the condition for nikkyo to happen.
I think is importat to realice that an Aikidoka doesn't try to do a technique, but aikido techniques "happen by themselves" due to specific condition created by the attacker. The aikidoist is just "a tool" or "an instrument" for the techniques to happen.
Nothing mystical, ethereal, supernatural, or hidden magical forces or anything like that though. Only correct body mechanis and physics.
The very best guys I've ever got to play with on the mat where good enough that they could tell me what was coming and there was still nothing I could do about it. But otherwise I mostly agree.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:27 PM   #97
pezalinski
 
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

A "non-compliant ukemi" is an interesting turn of words. I'd term it as "in-your-face" ukemi, which is not to be engaged by the slow or the uncommitted -- find the opening, and continue the attack; the technique is pr oven effective or not by the results it generates. The caveat, of course, is not to commit to any ukemi you don't expect to be able to walk away from uninjured.

Sometimes resistance is not futile, just down-right stupid -- by resisting, you may be setting yourself up for something worse. (Been there, done that; probably still cleaning off the tape marks from the injuries received the last time.)

Sometimes, it's just a way of saying that you don't think the technique is being executed in an effective way; you're saying, "that's not working -- try something else." You have to be training with someone who agrees to have this kind of conversation, and understands it as a tool for self improvement; Otherwise, you're just being an A*&*ole to someone who doesn't yet have a clue as to what you are doing. (Been there, too.)

"Fully resist", to me, means, continue the attack(s) until either you win or you lose -- define those terms how you will. It is difficult to "fully resist" while also fully defending oneself -- a catch 22 that only matters if the person you are resisting is also completely responding to your resistance... Ah, the joy of high-level harmonization.

We practice mutual awareness training at my dojo -- though we don't call it that, we just call it "training." And we don't play this way with everyone -- it's a judgment call between the players, what it means is this:
we practice the techniques that are being taught
in the way they are being taught,
and if we see an opening in the response or technique where an atemi is possible, or a different style of ukemi that might allow for a reversal, we might go for it. It turns training into a non-verbal conversation about the technique.

"Touch is hit; hit is kill" is something Shihan Akira Tohei used to say, implying that if your opponent can touch you, he can hit you, and if he can hit you, he can kill you. It really heightens the awareness when someone taps your body during a technique with their free hand, and you visualize the knife they could have had....



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Old 11-29-2006, 03:28 PM   #98
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I agree with Don on this. I think what Dan, Giancarlo, and perhaps Cady by extension, are hinting at is the ability to screw with someone by various degrees of grounding-out and "neutralizing" the opponent's moves. It's a cute trick to someone who doesn't know the trick, but it's essentially just a variant of Tohei's "ki demonstrations" where he stands there against a push. It's certainly a useable factor in combat practice (and it should commonly be in Aikido... obviously it's not).... but it's not more than a first step in basic jin/kokyu practice. Used against someone with equally good skills or against some fairly strong guy who doesn't want to play silly games, it won't do much more than momentarily stymie the technique. In other words, like so many other things, it's useful as heck, but it doesn't guarantee anything.
Mike
Mike, it's not "screwing with someone" nor "grounding out" or "neutralizing" his moves. It's actually seizing control of his body through his own entry points. In fact, it's not a trick, but a major principle of the methodology. Once you have that kind of control, the line between "attacker" and "defender" fades away. An opponent's attack becomes a gift.

It has nothing to do with strength. Tiny guys can totally take over a man twice their size. I'm a 5'6" woman and have controlled men over 230 lbs and 6'+. Sokaku Takeda said that his art could "be done by women and elderly people," and the reason why is that softness and controlled tension overcome brute strength and size.

The more relaxed and "soft" you are, the better you can feel the inner workings of your opponent and take control over them. Being rigid and stiff, tensing up, neutralizes that ability.

Breathe deep, relax and feel your internal mechanics, then "share them" with your opponent. Instead of steering or dancing around him and letting all his energy bleed away, go *into* him.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:51 PM   #99
Mike Sigman
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Mike, it's not "screwing with someone" nor "grounding out" or "neutralizing" his moves. It's actually seizing control of his body through his own entry points. In fact, it's not a trick, but a major principle of the methodology. Once you have that kind of control, the line between "attacker" and "defender" fades away. An opponent's attack becomes a gift.
Cady, let me explain something as clearly as I can. You and I touch... you *cannot* "seize control of my body". I promise you. At best you can apply some jin variations to me and respond to my forces. If you are better at it than someone else, you can "aiki" them. If they are better than you, you can find your own knowledge and abilities negated and used against you. That is not "seizing control" of the body. It may be a big deal in methodology to you, but it doesn't present much of a mystery, except to people who can't do it. What you've got at the moment is a transitory situation where not that many people can do it. That's changing. What are you going to do against a 6' 230-lb guy like me that can do the same thing and probably knows variations you've never thought of? See? It becomes a matter of "who knows the trick", not "taking over the opponent", when you look at it like that. I.e, who can "screw with" the other guy better.

Mike
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:00 PM   #100
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Non-Compliant Ukemi

Hm. Let me explain something now. I can "touch" you and immediately tap into your mechanics. If you make a movement toward me to touch, punch, grab, shove, strike, I can latch into it and immediately tap into your mechanics. I mean, I have bad days sometimes when I can't even get control over my cowlick, but over the years of training my success rate gets better and better. Dan is quite a bit more advanced than I am, so his good days are at about 99.99% Although some days he has cowlick problems too.
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