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Old 11-23-2006, 05:34 AM   #26
Nick Simpson
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Re: Belt problem

Don what is Staff? Never heard of it, Ringworm Is horrible though. I stayed off the mat for about 6 weeks due to it's infectious nature, that was fun...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:13 AM   #27
RampantWolf
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Don what is Staff? Never heard of it, Ringworm Is horrible though. I stayed off the mat for about 6 weeks due to it's infectious nature, that was fun...
Staph (pronounced like the American 'staff') is the short version of Staphylococcus aureus, a bacteria that lives on the skin but tends to turn nasty when it gets inside an open wound.

http://www.medicinenet.com/staph_infection/article.htm

Gavin

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:44 AM   #28
natasha cebek
 
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Smile Re: Belt problem

Relax, it will soften up in time.
But you shouldn't ever wash your belt..ever!!!

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Old 12-14-2006, 09:18 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Belt problem

Why is that?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:37 AM   #30
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

Why is what?

Respectfully,
Natasha

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Old 12-14-2006, 09:49 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
But you shouldn't ever wash your belt..ever!!!
Why is it that you shouldn't ever wash your belt?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:50 AM   #32
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

I was always told that every crease, bend, stain,dirt and fray on a obi, are all personal reminders of ones training path. I don't care, wash your obi. I assume (I could be wrong), you know the historical significance of the color "black", when referring to an Obi?

Respectfully,
Natasha

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Old 12-14-2006, 10:29 AM   #33
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
I was always told that every crease, bend, stain,dirt and fray on a obi, are all personal reminders of ones training path. I don't care, wash your obi. I assume (I could be wrong), you know the historical significance of the color "black", when referring to an Obi?

Respectfully,
Natasha
So, despite the filth, bad smell, and the possibility of becoming a vector for staph and ringworm infections in the dojo, we shouldn't wash our belts because you were "always told" something vague about how an unwashed belt makes a great training souvenir?

Incidentally, the "history" you refer to is likely completely made-up. If not, I would be happy to investigate a citation. Unless one is training in a tar pit or on the floor of a steel fabrication shop, no amount of simple use is going to turn a white belt black.
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:31 AM   #34
DonMagee
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Re: Belt problem

My belt serves on 3 purposes.

1) It holds my gi top closed and keeps people from using my gi against me.
2) It gives me a tool to choke people with.
3) It reminds higher belts to be a little easier on me because i'm not as skilled as they are.


Getting it dirty, frayed etc, is not a measure of skill to me. I look into myself and the opinion of my coaches and instructors for that. I could wear a white belt until it turns black and I would not be satisfied. But a simple nod from my coach and a comment on how good my base or armbar looked does wonders for me. Most times I could even go without the gi and be fine. I feel it's silly to train with a gi just for the sake of training with a gi. I wear a gi for 5 reasons.

1) I like to compete in gi competition.
2) My shorts and rash guards are all dirty.
3) It forces good technique when training with a gi on vs someone without a gi on.
4) I have yet to find any other clothing that lasts as long when people are pulling/grabbing/tugging/etc on it.
5) It hides my poor physique and makes me look tough :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:17 AM   #35
heathererandolph
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Re: Belt problem

I suggest you just wear it and keep practicing. After a while it will soften up. Go to more classes for faster softening!
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:22 AM   #36
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
So, despite the filth, bad smell, and the possibility of becoming a vector for staph and ringworm infections in the dojo, we shouldn't wash our belts because you were "always told" something vague about how an unwashed belt makes a great training souvenir?

Incidentally, the "history" you refer to is likely completely made-up. If not, I would be happy to investigate a citation. Unless one is training in a tar pit or on the floor of a steel fabrication shop, no amount of simple use is going to turn a white belt black.
Ok, you should do the research, it is very important to know the history of martial arts in all of its forms, including the "creation" of the Obi.
I have never hear of anyone getting an infection from an Obi, I'll have to investigate that claim.
I would hope though,that people would wash their Gi's on a regular basis, because all I have to say about that is "yuch!". There is nothing more disgusting than grappling with someone whose Gi smells like cat urine.

Respectfully,
Natasha

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Old 12-14-2006, 11:25 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Belt problem

Hi Natasha,

There are several threads on this site regarding the Myth to which I believe you refer. It is just that...a myth. While it may hold some importance to you, it would not hurt to be aware of what it really is...and to advise others accordingly, even though you continue to operate by it. That would be your choice...and if you make it consciously, knowing the accurate background, this may even give it more personal meaning. Or you may discard it...again, your choice. Made of personal knowledge, not based on someone just telling you.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:33 AM   #38
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

no amount of simple use is going to turn a white belt black.[/quote]

You know, just as a suggestion, why don't you put on a white belt and wear it for oh, I don't know (we'll keep it at a minimum)..for lets say 3 years, and see what happens. Now of course the experiment would only work if you trained more than once or twice a week.
I wonder, could you do that?

Any thoughts on Mr. Wilbanks brilliant statement?

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Old 12-14-2006, 11:36 AM   #39
Mark Freeman
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
Any thoughts on Mr. Wilbanks brilliant statement?
I thought it was brilliant

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:38 AM   #40
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

Why don't you just DO the research. Prove me wrong and I will humbly admit my faux pas.
I don't want opinions from members on this site, I want hard,cold historical facts.
Are you up to the task?

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Old 12-14-2006, 11:46 AM   #41
akiy
 
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Re: Belt problem

Hi Natasha,

The section under "15) The belt system colours are like that because as a white belt gets dirtier..." in the rec.martial-arts FAQ (linked below) has good information on this myth.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/faq/part4/

-- Jun

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Old 12-14-2006, 11:49 AM   #42
Mark Freeman
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
Why don't you just DO the research. Prove me wrong and I will humbly admit my faux pas.
I don't want opinions from members on this site, I want hard,cold historical facts.
Are you up to the task?
You first Natasha

regards,

Mark
p.s. It's only a belt

p.p.s if you don't want opinions, you are in the wrong place

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:53 AM   #43
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
Why don't you just DO the research. Prove me wrong and I will humbly admit my faux pas.
I don't want opinions from members on this site, I want hard,cold historical facts.
Are you up to the task?
Actually, you were the one who made/implied the claim about accumulated dirt being the origin of the black belt tradition, the burden of proof is on you. I feel no need to even investigate the myth, as there are several obvious reasons why it can't be true - incompatibility with the emphasis on cleanliness in Japanese culture, the recent origin of belt color/grading with the advent of Judo and the lack of anything like it in the various extant koryu arts, the fact that a piece of cloth will disintegrate from wear and tear from being used in a relatively clean environment not filled with black dust or tar, etc...
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:58 AM   #44
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

Does anybody on this site understand the symbolism of the black belt and why the color black?

I just cannot believe that with all the experienced martial artists on this website, that nobody has a clue about I what I am talking about.
Has anybody even bothered to research their history or why certain traditions are in place?
I suppose that next people are going to claim that Obi's have been around forever. OMG, I think that they were created..hmm like less than a hundred years ago.

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Old 12-14-2006, 12:13 PM   #45
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
Does anybody on this site understand the symbolism of the black belt and why the color black?

I just cannot believe that with all the experienced martial artists on this website, that nobody has a clue about I what I am talking about.
Has anybody even bothered to research their history or why certain traditions are in place?
I suppose that next people are going to claim that Obi's have been around forever. OMG, I think that they were created..hmm like less than a hundred years ago.
OK, we get that you have a cocky, in-your-face attitude. What we are looking for at this point is information and substantive argument. You keep alluding to this resevoir of factual historical information that you have and we don't, and are ridiculing us for our ignorance of it... why not just explain it and provide your evidence?
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:23 PM   #46
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Belt problem

Natasha...you should read the link that Jun provided...you should read the threads on this site and others...you should read period. Getting snippy ain't going to cut it.

The obi used in koryu (classical Japanese martial art) is very different from the obi used in gendai arts like judo, aikido and karate. Gendai arts tended to accept Kano's use of the obi, including in many cases the ranking and colors. The classical arts have a very different approach.

What we have been gently trying to tell you is that the myth you are referring to is just that...before Kano's judo, the obi had no rank connotation. In the end...it's really not a big deal...but please understand if you post mis-information, someone is bound to correct it, just like they corrected me for many years, and still do. After a while you learn to listen to the correction, investigate the sources, and make a reasoned decision. Sometimes that means I have to say "oh, you are correct, and I was mis-informed".

It's not really a big deal. Everybody makes mistakes. Such is life. Move on.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:43 PM   #47
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

I guess your right Ron.
I suppose then that my Sensei was wrong and his Sensei (Chinen) was wrong, especially when his Sensei's, El ich Mayazoto and Chojun Miyagi ,who were also students of Higashionna Sensei, were wrong too.
I think the point I was making was about the "Symbolic" meaning.
I mean were talking about the Japanese culture, a culture that thrives on myth and legend.
I mean who is right? and does it really matter?
Isn't this all semantics anyway?
Nonetheless, I will do some research.
I will certainly forward any relevant information.

Respectfully,
Natasha

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Old 12-14-2006, 12:48 PM   #48
po_courcelles
 
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
Has anybody even bothered to research their history or why certain traditions are in place?
I see that you haven't either...

A quick search on Wikipedia should get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo

Enjoy!

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
--- Albert Einstein
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:57 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Belt problem

Well, let's just say the first instructor back was mistaken...let's assume he heard something (perhaps in broken english) that was intended as a joke...but he didn't realize that it was a joke. Maybe he had heard a similar story somewhere else...and hearing the joke, mis-interpreted that as affirming his notion.

Let's further assume he is a kick-butt fighter, and a top notch instructor as well. I mean nobody...not anybody...is going to kick his butt. But he is STILL not a history professor...he is STILL not a linguist, nor does he speak Japanese...Nor is he an anthropologist. He's just a martial art teacher, doing his best to pass along what he's picked up.

If there is a prevelent myth out there, and he picked it up, and passed it on to you...is that such a crime? Does it really diminish him in any way in the ways that count? Is he still a kind person? Does he still teach well? Can he still use his art to defend himself?

Probably. It's not a crime to get something wrong...just because someone somewhere calls you sensei...

And it's not an insult to him just because someone else points out the mistake.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-14-2006 at 12:59 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:11 PM   #50
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Belt problem

Quote:
The obi used in koryu (classical Japanese martial art) is very different from the obi used in gendai arts like judo, aikido and karate.
Ron,
I am fully aware that Obi's are different. I made no reference to that.
Lets stick with the original argument, which I will do my best
to provide some kind of historical reference, as you had requested. OK?
I do read alot, so please lets not insult each other or be condescending, it's really not appropriate.

The original argument was in reference to washing the Obi.
Perhaps in your practice, it is acceptable. Whereas in mine, it is not and for several reasons which have been passed down from Sensei to student many times over.

Give me a couple of days and I will get back to you with something tangible.
Thanks.
Respectfully,
Natasha

Last edited by natasha cebek : 12-14-2006 at 01:14 PM.

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