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Old 01-09-2007, 03:01 PM   #26
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Mike Mantz wrote:

I can say that his size makes it harder for me to control him and toss him when we "freestyle". I have to use techniques and tactics he has not been introduced to in order to get him down or locked up. And heaven forbid I attempt a technique he is skilled in because he is able to overpower me regardless because he is bigger, heavier, and stronger than I am.
.
I am 5'3" about 130( ) and I train in Karate,Aiki Jujutsu and Aikido. Being relatively short, it has taken quite a long time understanding how strength and power works. Big brawny guys have always been somewhat of a problem, mainly due to their weight and thickness. What I finally figured out (what my Sensei's had been telling me-oh only about 10 billion times) was that in order for me to move a 250lb. guy, I needed to move from Hara. I still struggle with this, but when I move from Hara with correct posture and good technique- I can move anyone with relative ease-even a stiff and very resistent beginner. Training in Karate and Aiki has been tremendously useful to me in understanding power and no power. A good way to understand strength is to teach a small child how to throw you-if you can do that and feel their power(ki)-without giving it to them-then perhaps you might not struggle anymore. That's exactly what I did and after that everything changed.
Now of course this always easier said than done, but hopefully we eventually get it and are able to keep it.

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Old 01-17-2007, 05:39 AM   #27
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Hi, I'm 6'3" and 110Kg (240lbs?) and have been struggling to NOT use my size and strength in my aikido for the 4 years I've been practising. I've only trained with someone bigger than me on a few occassions and that was most insightful. I would say that I do use my size when my technique doesn't quite suffice, but I'm working on that.

I'm hoping in the future to start a juniors class at our dojo so the comments regarding training with children are very interesting to me.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:22 AM   #28
mut
 
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Mike Mantz wrote:
Ok, I'll bite....

There is a guy I work with that I was helping understand what Aikido is. This guy is 6 feet tall and weighs a whopping 320 lbs, and is a semi-pro american football player in his free time. I am 5'8" and weigh a staggering 155lbs. After helping this fellow along and teaching him roughly ten basic and more common Aikido techniques I can say that his size makes it harder for me to control him and toss him when we "freestyle". I have to use techniques and tactics he has not been introduced to in order to get him down or locked up. And heaven forbid I attempt a technique he is skilled in because he is able to overpower me regardless because he is bigger, heavier, and stronger than I am. At times I will challenge him by resisting and applying my strength to him in order to "ward off" a technique and see how he responds and he is able to feel my flow and use it against me, very rarely does he have to apply his strength to me directly. A light tap from him is much harder on me than my light tap to him, simple physics of size come into play.

Also, it is harder for me to apply certain techniques on him as there is such a vast size difference so he knows automatically that I will be inneffective in 1/3 of my aikido vocabulary off the bat. So when we do go freestyle I am able to intermix my aikido with my other skills so essentially I am doing what would appear to be more like Shinto-Ryu or Wado-Ryu after applying techniques of traditional Jujitsu , Shotokan, or even a more modernized "art" like Krav Maga or the use of a pressure point. On the strictly Aikido standpoint of training, we both make a great uke and he likes to take ukemi from me even when he says "oh hell" prior to being thrown 10 feet.

My point is that size does indeed make a difference, especially when there is resistance and there is no cooperative uke. Try to freestyle with a larger partner once or twice to see what I mean. Before my friend became a 5th Kyu he was easier to handle in freestyle, now he is hard to handle, but I love it and I love the challenge because I learn so much from it.
i personally think size dont mean sh*t, if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it. one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.you just got to believe in aikido and yourself and find away, there is always a way.thankyou.
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Old 01-23-2007, 11:33 AM   #29
Basia Halliop
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Lee Southward wrote:
one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.
You're comparing a 3rd dan to someone much less skilled. I think that makes some sense intuitively -- I can believe that enough skill can make the other person's strength that much less important. But that's a slightly different statement from 'strength and size are meaningless.' What if your 3rd dan met another equally 'fantastic' 3rd dan who had just as much skill but was _also_ much bigger and stronger? Maybe it would come down to the individuals (?), but I think it's an interesting question.
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:54 PM   #30
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

My sensei is pushing 50 (but you didn't hear that from me), is about 5'3", and can't weigh more than 120 lbs. She's a tiny little thing, and that isn't the norm in our dojo, which consists of at least 3 large burly men (myself one of them) and one 6'6" scrawny dude, plus an extra who's very very muscular and limber. She can down them all with a smile. She, and many of us actually, loves to be resisted from time to time because it reminds us that an overly generous uke isn't always the best training partner. I've asked for resistance from many of my senpai and kohai because I can't feel a connection to an uke who takes the fall before I deliver it. And many have asked me for resistance because.. well.. I'm a large person and difficult to topple.

And sometimes I deliver resistance when it's not asked for and senpai hurts me.. but that's a story for another day.. :P

Every time I don't perform a technique properly, be it an immovable senpai or a flailing kohai, I look inside myself for what I could do differently. If an inexperienced kohai weasles out of my grip by chance, then I should look for ways that I can counter that. If an experienced senpai just stands there grinning while I struggle, same deal.

I strongly don't think size or numbers matter, only the skill. O-sensei demonstrates this nicely. In his later years, he was small, thin, and old. Yet he still managed to perform wonderfully against large, burly, young men... sometimes several at a time, and none of them were just being nice.

One could perhaps think of it this way: when you connect to uke, you're harmonizing with their energy and essentially controlling it... controlling all of it. You then add a small bit of your own to redirect or whathaveyou. If you're controlling their energy plus your own energy, and they're controlling.. well.. at best, their own energy, then you will always have the upper hand, no matter how large they are.

At least, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Adults are just outdated children, and the hell with them. - Dr. Suess

It's senpai's fault. - Andy-senpai
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:23 PM   #31
Keith R Lee
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Lee Southward wrote:
i personally think size dont mean sh*t, if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it. one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.you just got to believe in aikido and yourself and find away, there is always a way.thankyou.
and yet...somehow...in every competitive combative sport in the world, there are weight classes. How odd...

Keith Lee
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:33 PM   #32
Basia Halliop
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
And many have asked me for resistance because.. well.. I'm a large person and difficult to topple.
I like practicing with people much larger than me too -- but that's partly because they're often, as you say, 'difficult to topple', and trying something more challenging can sometimes teach you a lot and improve your skills.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:50 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
O-sensei demonstrates this nicely. In his later years, he was small, thin, and old. Yet he still managed to perform wonderfully against large, burly, young men... sometimes several at a time, and none of them were just being nice.
But how can we verify that none of them were being nice? I've actually heard that the uke were being very respectfull...and that is the impression I get from watching video as well.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:52 PM   #34
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

I agree Ron. I don't put much faith in watching the videos as there is much left to the imagination, and much we simply cannot know. Our minds can run amuck with conjecture and assumptions when we really think we are looking at facts and reality.
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:05 PM   #35
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
and yet...somehow...in every competitive combative sport in the world, there are weight classes. How odd...
I'd guess multiple reasons. 1)It takes a great deal of time to reach a level where a person is able to overcome size with technique. 2)I would think that those who do know how to do that, probably don't care to waste their time in a ring. 3)When you reach a level where size doesn't matter, the match would be very brief (like a Tyson fight...who wants to pay thirty bucks for thirty seconds of fight?) and wouldn't be commercially productive or gratifying to the ego.

Just guesses. Who knows.
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Old 01-26-2007, 03:39 PM   #36
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
But how can we verify that none of them were being nice? I've actually heard that the uke were being very respectfull...and that is the impression I get from watching video as well.
We can't verify anything except through our own practice. Can you explain how a 7 year old girl could throw me, with nothing more than her intention and proper technique?
And for the record, I wasn't giving her anything.

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Old 01-26-2007, 03:54 PM   #37
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

you weren't giving her anything? What about an attack? You're always giving *something*. So if this 7 year old girl was standing between you and a loved one in danger, are you saying you couldn't get through her?

as for the weight classes discussion - Size and strength are indeed important. They augment strength. When the skill gap is very great (look at UFC's 1-4) size and strength can be overcome. When skills are more on a par, (not necessarily equivalent but in the ball park) then size and strength is all that is left to determine advantage. Which is why the UFC now has weight classes - you don't get the same total mismatch of skill that you did in 93.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-27-2007, 10:21 AM   #38
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Lee Southward wrote:
if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it.

This is true. I suppose that many people have the impression that since Aikido is the art of peace, there shouldn't be any hitting or punching coming from Nage. But atemi isn't about just hitting and striking. I think it's also about finding Uke's opening and making Uke understand they *could* be hit. This has both the physical and psychological effect of making it easier (and necessary for Uke to go down.
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Old 01-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #39
Keith R Lee
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I'd guess multiple reasons. 1)It takes a great deal of time to reach a level where a person is able to overcome size with technique. 2)I would think that those who do know how to do that, probably don't care to waste their time in a ring. 3)When you reach a level where size doesn't matter, the match would be very brief (like a Tyson fight...who wants to pay thirty bucks for thirty seconds of fight?) and wouldn't be commercially productive or gratifying to the ego.

Just guesses. Who knows.
Well, I thought I was very clearly being facetious.

Like Michael posted above, when two people are generally equal in their skillset, the larger/stronger/more athletic person will usually win. It's true in boxing, wrestling, whatever. Yet for some reason some people tend to think that somehow martial artists are immune to this. It's why the UFC/MMA have weight classes and why a bigger person generally beats a smaller person. Flying crane eye-gouge throat-knee double strikes are fantasty.

Also, I'm with Michael on the 7 year old thing. No way could a 7 year old throw me if I didn't want them to, and more than likely I could just pick them up and throw them on the ground as hard as I could and that would end any resistence on their part. Another example of size/strength mattering.

Keith Lee
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Old 01-27-2007, 04:20 PM   #40
Peter Savill
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Must agree...no way a 7yr old could throw you unless they were a mutant , you are very small indeed or a great deal of cooperation is going on!

Best Wishes
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Old 01-27-2007, 05:54 PM   #41
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Sokaku Takeda (Ueshiba's teacher) always said that women and children could do Daito-ryu. Ueshiba's aikido was based on Daito-ryu, and he regularly "trashed" big, burly men much larger than he, when they weren't cooperatiing, even when he was a frail, elderly man. Why do you suppose that was?
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:04 PM   #42
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
.....when two people are generally equal in their skillset, the larger/stronger/more athletic person will usually win. It's true in boxing, wrestling, whatever. Yet for some reason some people tend to think that somehow martial artists are immune to this .....
"Immune" migt be the wrong word. Most self defense situations assume you'll haveto deal with someone bigger than you. Women's self defense, AFAIK, does not assume that an Amazon weight lifter is being accosted by a 98 pound pipsqueak, but that an average sized woman is being assaulted by someone bigger stronger than she is.

Quote:
.... It's why the UFC/MMA have weight classes and why a bigger person generally beats a smaller person ....
Well, then if you're a smaller person you'd better give some thought to how to break the rules and deal with a bigger person because there ain't no weight classes on the street!

Quote:
Flying crane eye-gouge throat-knee double strikes are fantasty.
Then why do they exist in the first place?

Quote:
Also, I'm with Michael on the 7 year old thing. No way could a 7 year old throw me if I didn't want them to, and more than likely I could just pick them up and throw them on the ground as hard as I could and that would end any resistence on their part. Another example of size/strength mattering.
See above. Quite simply, if you don't want your 7 year old kidnapped/raped/whatever, better have SOME idea how to deal with an adult.
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Old 01-27-2007, 07:47 PM   #43
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

OK, so explain how Ueshiba-barely skimming 5' (if that) and probably weighing no more than a 100lbs, was able to throw men twice his size. You obviously don't get it yet...It's never been about size..... EVER,ever!!!! In fact the bigger someone is, the harder they fall...unless they have good ukemi of course ..As far as a 7 year old throwing me...well, I wasn't talking about attacking..I was teaching her the importance of the uke/tori connection. When I said that I did not give her anything-what I meant was that I was solid. Without understanding the connection, you have nothing but a lot of body. Have you ever picked up a baby that did not want to be picked up? Have you ever grappled with someone about your own size and all of sudden, they went from 180lbs to what seemed liked 500 lbs and then, the image of your lungs being crushed comes to mind.
This is about energy,chi-whatever you want to call it.
Even experienced karateka understand how to generate their chi, not all..but most do after a time.

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Old 01-28-2007, 01:37 AM   #44
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

certainly there is a certain amount of not getting it on this thread.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-28-2007, 04:02 AM   #45
Michael Varin
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Natasha Cebek wrote:
OK, so explain how Ueshiba-barely skimming 5' (if that) and probably weighing no more than a 100lbs, was able to throw men twice his size. You obviously don't get it yet...It's never been about size..... EVER,ever!!!!
Actually, I've heard Morihei say in an interview that at one time he weighed 175lbs. At 5' - 5'1" that's a pretty stout fellow. In the same interview he talks fondly about how rippled his muscles were, and how he once carried 1200lbs. He also makes the comment that in terms of physical power alone he was never defeated.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs

Weight, strength, athleticism does matter. It's not the whole picture, but it's a major component.

Michael
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:26 PM   #46
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Weight, strength, athleticism does matter. It's not the whole picture, but it's a major component.
I think the disagreement is a miscommunication. All those things matter, however, I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.

However, I don't think anyone would say that technical ability with extra strength is bad.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:11 PM   #47
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I think the disagreement is a miscommunication. All those things matter, however, I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.
.
assuming there is a mismatch in technical ability. When the ability is close....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:35 PM   #48
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

IMO size, strength, speed, etc., along with more "refined" things like skill, 'energy', etc., are all components going into an equation. How much each one contributes, I have no idea, but from basic physics, larger and stronger people can deliver more power, all other things being equal.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-29-2007, 03:12 AM   #49
Michael Varin
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.
Any issue of strength and weight?

You don't think that a 6'7" 370lb offensive lineman could with sheer physicality overwhelm a highly skilled 5'8" 160lb martial artist?

There is a technical solution to the strength/weight issue. It's simple and is one of the defining traits of humans -- the use of tools. We never would've made it if we kept trying to wrestle bears and tigers.

Sticks, spears, knives, swords, guns, some are better equalizers than others, but they all seriously address this issue.

Weapons, like anything, require skill to be used effectively, and most importantly a calm and composed mind, which I would say is another of the major components.

Michael
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Old 01-29-2007, 05:33 AM   #50
natasha cebek
 
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Re: Seagal's technique...is it his size?

Michael,
Your right.
Size, strength and conditioning always help but cannot define the outcome of a fight or self defense situation against a skilled martial artist. A composed and calm mind-there are other names for it like "mushin" which means "no mind " or "warrior mind" can effectively give a person a lot more leverage.
Within the different styles of martial arts that I study, I have learned that all share the same principles. For example; Aikido,Hakkoryu,Jujutsu and Karate all have kota gaiesh-the principle is exactly the same, but the "exclamation point", direction or focal point of energy is quite different between all of them...tools!
I have never let size deter me and again let me stress that I still do struggle with the big thick body type but once in awhile, when I utilize certain components together and with the right mind set-I can move a very large person with very little effort.
A large person can be "Mr. Atlas" strong yet incredibly slow, a tiny person can have no strength, but their speed is astounding. The mind directs traffic and the more options that the mind has within its arsenal..the more leverage one has.

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