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Old 11-15-2006, 08:43 AM   #26
Esaemann
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Mike,
Thanks,
Interesting stuff. Not sure, myself, how much of it to believe either.

I do the standing post for about 15 minutes a few days a week. I figure if nothing else, it will improve stamina and focus on breathing instead of pain.

Even if it is true, I'll never get to the point of throwing someone without touching since I can't devote the 2-4 hours a day for five years that he states is required.
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:14 AM   #27
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Another thing I wish I could see (but can't yet) is how different Tohei's view of ki/kokyu in aikido from others. I've seen video clips of Tohei, Saito, Shioda, Ueshiba Morihei, and to my untrained eye it looks like they all have rather different expressions of the same techniques. How much of those differences are style vs. technical difference vs. alignment/power generation issues... I can't see that right now.

O-Sensei was big on serious students 'making their own martial arts.' Maybe he hardwired that into training by not teaching the internal training as much as he could
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:29 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Nicholas Pagnucco wrote:
Another thing I wish I could see (but can't yet) is how different Tohei's view of ki/kokyu in aikido from others. I've seen video clips of Tohei, Saito, Shioda, Ueshiba Morihei, and to my untrained eye it looks like they all have rather different expressions of the same techniques.
Well, using Ki strength/forces is the core of Aikido and it allows you to "aiki" with an incoming force, and so on, but in any given technique, even someone using ki-forces may opt to do it slightly differently than someone else using ki forces.

The point to stay focused on is that the essence of Aikido is this use of mind-directed forces, as opposed to simple techniques that externally "blend" with an opponent. If externally "blending" was all there was to it, it wouldn't be very special. Sunadomari Sensei's exhortation that the "aiki" happened at the moment Uke grabbed his wrist (at the first Friendship Demo, IIRC) was spot on. He was trying to say something extremely important.

Tohei's book, "This is Aikido", by showing and emphasizing the basics of using ki in throws, how your body forces should be aligned at all times, etc., is just beautifully elegant.

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:45 AM   #29
Robert Rumpf
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
There's a real problem with this stuff that has to do with the fact that a lot of the effects tend to be the results of suggestion, if you're not careful.
There's an excellent section about the power of suggestion in the martial arts in the "other" book by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook, "Secrets of the Samurai." I believe it is in the last, or second to last, chapter.

Rob
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:45 PM   #30
ian
 
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sunadomari Sensei's exhortation that the "aiki" happened at the moment Uke grabbed his wrist (at the first Friendship Demo, IIRC) was spot on.
Hang on a second... that's just a copy of Ueshibas saying that the outcome of a battle is determined at the moment of contact.

Also, I don't think at all he was talking about ki. I think he was talking about Misubi, which has already been discused in one of the best threads on aikiweb:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ghlight=misubi

Why would ki decide the outcome at the start? Unless you mean in a very generalistic whole universe aspect of ki. Jes' I'm really getting to hate these discussions on ki.
I really think talking too much about ki is actually ki-draining

Last edited by ian : 11-15-2006 at 02:50 PM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:56 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Hang on a second... that's just a copy of Ueshibas saying that the outcome of a battle is determined at the moment of contact.

Also, I don't think at all he was talking about ki. I think he was talking about Misubi, which has already been discused in one of the best threads on aikiweb:
Hi Ian:

You *think* he was talking about Musubi? What if he was talking about ki, but you didn't understand? In other words, do you really understand what "Ki-no-Musubi" is talking about? It's the automatic blending with an incoming attack, but not in a physical sense; it's in the sense of your "ki" (if you know how to use it) automatically joins with Uke's incoming force at the moment of contact. The idea that Ki-no-musubi is simply the automatic application of a *technique* that "flows" with the opponent is fairly low-level. That's what the external martial-arts do.
Quote:
Why would ki decide the outcome at the start? Unless you mean in a very generalistic whole universe aspect of ki. Jes' I'm really getting to hate these discussions on ki.
I really think talking too much about ki is actually ki-draining
Do you think O-Sensei and others were mentioning all the ki stuff because they were whacky and had too much discretionary time? That they developed very practical martial arts, but had this mental weakness for imaginary playthings like "ki"? How about the possibility that they knew something that they didn't teach too widely (which is why Tohei and others had to go outside to learn it)????? ;^)

Best Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:35 PM   #32
Tim Fong
 
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

As far as the whole emitted qi/ electromagnetic field thing:
http://mindbodylab.bio.uci.edu/

The professor who runs this lab has done research into whether people who claim they can emit qi can actually change cell growth. I have no idea if anything has come of it though.
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:50 PM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
As far as the whole emitted qi/ electromagnetic field thing:
http://mindbodylab.bio.uci.edu/

The professor who runs this lab has done research into whether people who claim they can emit qi can actually change cell growth. I have no idea if anything has come of it though.
I tried to read the article, Tim, but my Bogosity Meter pegged out and I had to shut down.

Mike
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:29 PM   #34
crbateman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I tried to read the article, Tim, but my Bogosity Meter pegged out and I had to shut down.
Need some new batteries for your meter, Mike?
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Old 11-15-2006, 10:51 PM   #35
Aran Bright
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's the automatic blending with an incoming attack, but not in a physical sense; it's in the sense of your "ki" (if you know how to use it) automatically joins with Uke's incoming force at the moment of contact.
So this connection occurs firstly with the bio-electrical energy fields which travel through the fascial system which then can be interpreted by the brain as some sort of proprioceptive input?

Does that sound right?

Is this how you can "sense" when an opponents mind moves ?

http://brisbaneaikido.com

Brisbane Aikido Republic
Brisbane
Australia
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:24 PM   #36
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

To Aran's point: not sure there is need to postulate such. The "listening" which is part of "jin"/ki is perhaps explainable by reference to how we learn to use our bodies during training in "jin" development. Just as we now know our own balance and how heavy etc. something using normal strength by reference to how those things touch us, so we shall know the "jin" of the opponent when we use the different mechanisms trained by for example solo exercises. The scientifically exact mechanisms (if they are true) do not help in practice. At least that's how I perceive this at the moment.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:24 AM   #37
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

God Bless inter-library loan.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:32 AM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

I actually gave a copy of that book, along with Saito's 5 books, and a number of others, to the library at Ikeda Sensei's dojo in Boulder, back in the late 80's. If I'd known what those suckers would bring now, I'd have never dreamed of it.

Mike
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Old 11-16-2006, 12:18 PM   #39
Tim Fong
 
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Mike,
Yeah I am surprised that the prof. at UCI is able to get funding to do that research. The blood flow stuff was interesting though.
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Old 11-16-2006, 01:30 PM   #40
kironin
 
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

This is still my favorite book by Tohei Sensei. I have a couple of copies which I picked up some years ago when the going price for editions in good quality condition were going for $100-300 on abe.com or other used bookseller sites.

So if you can pick it up for under $100, you got a good buy.

There may be few other martial art instruction book gems like it but it's the only book I have seen where the illustration and photography is done so logically and professionally well that you actually have a chance of grokking the technique just from the book. There was an hour long instruction video put out at the same time around (1966) that you can find B&W video clips from on the internet.

For a teacher, there is some great commentary, points and tests that can help make a class more entertaining and help get ideas across to students.

Just too bad there wasn't a multivolume series of books using the same translator, editor, photography and layout team. They did it right, and a more comprehensive series would have been a staggering achievement. Imagine a couple more volumes of Tohei, and volumes of other greats of the period done in the same clear style.


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Old 11-16-2006, 07:37 PM   #41
crbateman
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Just too bad there wasn't a multivolume series of books using the same translator, editor, photography and layout team. They did it right, and a more comprehensive series would have been a staggering achievement. Imagine a couple more volumes of Tohei, and volumes of other greats of the period done in the same clear style.

That would be very exciting!
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Old 11-17-2006, 02:16 PM   #42
Michael Douglas
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
E.g., you also emit heat from your body, but that doesn't mean you can hole-up in a cave and develop your natural heat emissions into heat-rays that will destroy cities and help you in bar fights.
All my training is for naught!! Damn you!!
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Old 11-17-2006, 02:20 PM   #43
Ron Tisdale
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Re: This is Aikido, by Tohei

ok, fine, but you can't tell me it's not possible to hole up in a cave, eating a pot of beans, and store up those "emissions"...and you can darn sure take out a whole bar if you store up enough beans!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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