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Old 11-25-2006, 02:37 AM   #176
Michael Varin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Amir,

For the record, I never called my Iranian friend Arab. He told me it's something he runs into every so often and doesn't like it. I was just trying to find something from my personal experience to illustrate that not everyone from the Middle East or all Muslims are Arab, but thanks for the reply.

Now that that's cleared up, back to the discussion.

Michael
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Old 11-26-2006, 07:00 PM   #177
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

David, Amir, thanks for giving me a better perspective on the whole house example.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:06 AM   #178
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

many Christian Lebanese don't like when you call them Arabs. i personally don't care, but some facts about Lebanese Christians:

- they consider Lebanon the "eastern edge of the West" as opposed to "western edge of the east". in other words, don't affiliate us with most Arab nations in the Middle East, because we value Western ideals.

- there is a difference between Lebanese and Arabic. i told my Lebanese friend, in our native language, that i speak arabic, and he said: "no, you speak Lebanese"

- we don't want muslim leadership, no matter what the cost. even when Israel comes in and does major damage, we would rather blame the conflict on HA and Syria. we're still not happy with what Israel does, but after discussing Lebanese politics this Thanksgiving with my entire family, only I brought up Israel. to my family from the old world, Israel is an afterthought.

keep in mind this is only the viewpoint of Lebanese Christians. Lebanese Shi'ites would like nothing better than to destroy Israel. Lebanese Sunni's are torn: some are pro-syrian, some are not. Druze are mostly anti-syrian, but you'll find exceptions. even General Aoun, longtime a Christian general, stabbed us in the back and is pro-syrian.

with this much diversity, maybe you can understand why it's so hard to disarm HA, and the type of damage that war can do to this country. I am very proud of my country that we have held it together so far, but being a Christian, I am not happy with the Syrians moving in and the US and Israel starting to ally with them.

Israel and the US are trying to channel through Syria in order to restore order in Iraq. if they work out some sort of agreement, my guess is that they're going to let Syria waltz right in. unacceptable.

edit: one more thing; don't ever mistake Hezbollah ideals for Lebanese ones

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 11-27-2006 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:37 PM   #179
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
many Christian Lebanese don't like when you call them Arabs. i personally don't care, but some facts about Lebanese Christians:

- they consider Lebanon the "eastern edge of the West" as opposed to "western edge of the east". in other words, don't affiliate us with most Arab nations in the Middle East, because we value Western ideals.

- there is a difference between Lebanese and Arabic. i told my Lebanese friend, in our native language, that i speak arabic, and he said: "no, you speak Lebanese"
Luc,

Do you mean that the term "Christian Arab" is an oxymoron? Or, is it just that Lebanese Christians (as opposed to Syrian Christians, or Jordanian Christians) alone do not consider themselves Arabs?
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:18 AM   #180
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Ahwadi Arabs consider themselves to be a persecuted minority in Iran - They feel persecuted by the Persians

So it makes the point that just because we lump a lot of people together under one heading does not make them all the same.

You can Lump - France and USA together as Westerners

or the UK and Germany as Europeans.

You can even call people from South of the Mason-Dixon Line 'Yanks'.

It doesn't follow that all are the same.
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Old 12-10-2006, 06:07 AM   #181
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Luc,

Do you mean that the term "Christian Arab" is an oxymoron? Or, is it just that Lebanese Christians (as opposed to Syrian Christians, or Jordanian Christians) alone do not consider themselves Arabs?
Lebanese Christians alone, myself included. i joke about it, but i consider Lebanese culture and Arabic culture two different things. go to my old neighborhood in Beirut and you will think the same.
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Old 12-10-2006, 10:24 AM   #182
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
go to my old neighborhood in Beirut and you will think the same.
Someday, I hope I can do that.
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Old 12-10-2006, 10:55 AM   #183
Mark Freeman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
go to my old neighborhood in Beirut and you will think the same.
Hi guys,

I wonder if it is still how you remember it Luc? I hope so.
I used to work for british airways along time ago, and my flight crew friends used to say that Beirut was one of the best places in the world to visit, of course that was before the first round of destruction let alone the second.
It is such a shame that war destroys in moments what often takes generations to build

Peace to all in this troubled time

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-10-2006, 02:29 PM   #184
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I wonder if it is still how you remember it Luc?
yes. Beirut is rebuilt from the first set of wars, and Israel only bombed the southern part this summer, where it's not too historical. besides, most of my family is still there.
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Old 12-10-2006, 07:51 PM   #185
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But try (for a second) to look at it from my perspective. The topic is the aftermath of the illegal war on Lebanon.
The 2 kidnapped Israeli soldiers have still not been returned yet. Hezbollah is re-arming and UNIFIL is *ONLY* complaining about Israel's overflights for intelligence.


Right now, no Arab country has ever lived up fully to their legal agreements and many are still officially at war with Israel. What is this continued noise about "bad ole Israel" and "Nasty Ole US of A". It's the same BS, over and over. Where has Luc complained about the 2 Israeli soldiers, may I ask?


Mike Sigman
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:23 AM   #186
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Where has Luc complained about the 2 Israeli soldiers, may I ask?
well, starting mid-July, i was:

1) Worried that my family would be killed

then, when the fighting ended, i was:

2) Worried that Israeli air and sea blockades would not allow me to visit my family when I got married.

then, when they lifted the blockade, i was:

3) Worried that a significantly strengthened Lezzbollah would give Iran and Syria free reign over Lebanon.

all the while, being in shock and awe that despite being a peaceful nation, we once again have the reputation of being war hungry barbarians, even if we did none of the shooting.

it was never about the two soldiers, Mike. it wasn't Helen of Troy that moved 1000 ships either. in both cases, it was pure politics.
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:47 AM   #187
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

So basically, Luc.... reading your post... it is the penultimate Middle Eastern "worry about me and mine and to hell with those soldiers". In your opinion, Israel should just not react when its country is invaded and its citizens kidnapped by primitive, depraved tribes-people who have a religion that promotes the killing of Jews. That seems to be what it boils down to.

You don't seem to be concerned that "Lebanese" cannot keep their word, are dishonorable, and support murder of Israelis, etc. All you think about is yourself, if you list of concerns is accurate.

Your rants are *still* totally focused at Israel, with only occasional lip-service to truth or ethics. Now that you can see not even a good arguing point about the kidnapped soldiers, you're quite willing to dismiss them as something in the past like Helen of Troy. Perhaps if it was your family that was kidnapped, it would get your attention? Your concern for others seems to stop at this tribal level for some reason. Why not start raising screams about the Lebanese not releasing those soldiers??

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:00 AM   #188
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In your opinion, Israel should just not react when its country is invaded and its citizens kidnapped by primitive, depraved tribes-people who have a religion that promotes the killing of Jews. That seems to be what it boils down to.
Israel does react, but doesn't start a war over it. this time it did. that's all i'm saying.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
All you think about is yourself, if you list of concerns is accurate.
my country has seen 16 years of blood and sweat wiped out in the blink of an eye, and my grandchildren will be born by the time it recovers economically from this. meanwhile, Iran and Syria are pounding on our back door. am i supposed to cry for somebody else?


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Your rants are *still* totally focused at Israel, with only occasional lip-service to truth or ethics.
i'm glad you called them rants, because that's all they are. i believe i'm entitled to them after what's happened, what is happening, and what seems like a dim future for Lebanon.

you still don't understand, Mike: we had hope. lots and lots of hope.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:28 AM   #189
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Israel does react, but doesn't start a war over it. this time it did. that's all i'm saying.
Yes. And, I'm sure that while those of us who are such good citizens of the world are wringing their hands over the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers...surely, they can remember the names of the six Palestinian children who were killed this last June, while picnicking on the beach....right?

Uh huh.

Quote:
my country has seen 16 years of blood and sweat wiped out in the blink of an eye, and my grandchildren will be born by the time it recovers economically from this. meanwhile, Iran and Syria are pounding on our back door. am i supposed to cry for somebody else?
Yes, Luc: you're supposed to forget it all and stand up and salute, whenever someone mentions the US interests. United States, uber alles.

Quote:
i'm glad you called them rants, because that's all they are. i believe i'm entitled to them after what's happened, what is happening, and what seems like a dim future for Lebanon.

you still don't understand, Mike: we had hope. lots and lots of hope.
And, he never will understand, either. Not until it either happens to HIS neighborhood, HIS city; or he actually visits a nation beset upon by Israeli/US "justice."
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:36 AM   #190
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
And, he never will understand, either. Not until it either happens to HIS neighborhood, HIS city; or he actually visits a nation beset upon by Israeli/US "justice."
Oh, I think you lotus-eaters living off the fat of America on the West Coast will probably taste what Israel tastes daily from the Arabs, far sooner than you'll ever seen any effects from the Jooooos, Neil. Those nasty old Jooooos. You hates 'em and hates 'em... your passion against them reminds me of the late 1930's. Time to finish what the "socialists-turned-fascists" couldn't complete, eh?

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:54 PM   #191
Cady Goldfield
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Israel, as always, is fighting for its survival. Looks like it's time to remind Mr. Mick, again, how Jews are treated in the Arab world. Anyone who feels no enmity toward Jews would be upset and concerned about the hatred cultivated against Jews at the behest and design of Arab governments:

http://www.middleeast.org/forum/fb-public/1/4240.shtml

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-11-2006 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:05 AM   #192
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon, as always, are fighting for their survival
fixed that for you. the Middle East is one, big mess. to say there is only one victim is just ridiculous.

just don't confuse someone's love for one country with hatred for another country. from a completely neutral point of view (GO LEBANON), i have seen what war does to my country, and i don't want to see any more.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:32 AM   #193
Cady Goldfield
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Um, I'll thank you not to change a quote and attribute it to me.

Luc, it's horrible when civilians are killed and have their homes destroyed...anywhere. When terrorist groups such as Hezbollah use civilians as human shields, and incite attacks so that they can "let the world see that innocent civilians are being killed," it's even more horrific. Yes, everyone wants to survive, but when factions let blind hatred and fanaticism prevent them from coming to the negotiating table, I have to wonder why the civilians don't turn on those very factions who are causing violence to rain down on them? Israel is subject ot the criticism of its own citizens. Being a democracy, that is as it should be. Where is the criticism and sanctioning of terrorist groups by Arab civilians who are paying dearly for having their homes, schools, hospitals and communities used as bait and shielding?
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:44 AM   #194
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Um, I'll thank you not to change a quote and attribute it to me.
a technique used on another forum i venture, just to kid around. point taken, though.


Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Where is the criticism and sanctioning of terrorist groups by Arab civilians who are paying dearly for having their homes, schools, hospitals and communities used as bait and shielding?
most Sunni's, Christians, Druze, and Greek Orthodox are against Hezbollah in Lebanon. that's why the anti-Syrian faction (read: anti-Hezbollah) won in a landslide last year in *elections* that were held. i didn't want you to think Israel is the only democratic nation in the Middle East.
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Old 12-12-2006, 10:39 AM   #195
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Israel, as always, is fighting for its survival.

Oh, really? Is the gov't in danger of forcibly being halted? Are troops marching within her borders?

Are the trains even being halted by a friggin' second? Any critical resources in danger of being destroyed?

Then, I guess that SOMEONE here is overestimating (yet again) the dangers to Israel. Funny, how a nation has been "fighting for its survival," for some 35 years. Funnier still, how the cries of "fighting for its survival," seem to emerge when that nation is guilty of the worst human rights violations.

But, Israel can do no wrong, so long as it is "fighting for its survival," right?

Quote:
Looks like it's time to remind Mr. Mick, again, how Jews are treated in the Arab world.
Looks like its time for Mr. Goldfield to bring up a non sequitor, again, of how Jews are treated in the Arab world.

Quote:
Anyone who feels no enmity toward Jews would be upset and concerned about the hatred cultivated against Jews at the behest and design of Arab governments.
Yes, Arab gov't's are mean, and often suck. They're corrupt and guilty of human rights violations, in many cases.

Not sure WHAT this has to do with Lebanon, the treatment of Palestinian's, or even the price of beans in Uzbekistan: but if it makes you happy, Cady: it makes ME happy.

Quote:
Israel is subject ot the criticism of its own citizens. Being a democracy, that is as it should be.
Where are the critiques of the human rights violations? Where are the bills in the Knesset over these violations being pushed thru into law? Where is the wide display of the Israeli press, critiquing the indefinite detention of thousands of Palestinian's?

Absent, that's where? Israel, "subject to criticism?" Maybe to a point, but...

And, as far as critique within Arab nations?

Quote:
Where is the criticism and sanctioning of terrorist groups by Arab civilians who are paying dearly for having their homes, schools, hospitals and communities used as bait and shielding?
You might imagine that the critique of terrorist groups might be muted by those who are living, in their backyard. You might, if you stopped characterizing Arabs as cardboard villians, for just a second.

You might also try to find this critique...it's out there, but not in periodicals you like to read. You have to dig a little deeper...

Last edited by Neil Mick : 12-12-2006 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:43 AM   #196
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

And, speaking of active critiques...I just heard this on the news:

Quote:
DN! wrote:
Student Protesters Interrupt Ahmadinejad Speech
In Iran, a group of students disrupted a speech by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday. It marked the first major public protest against Ahmadinejad since he took office. The students screamed Death to the Dictator, set photographs of the president on fire and threw firecrackers at him. Ahmadinejad cut his speech short. As he left, students kicked at the car that carried him away. The president's guards did not remove the students or use force to stop the protests.
But, then there was this, that made me want to hurl...

Quote:
DN! wrote:
Meanwhile Iran is hosting an international conference questioning whether the Holocaust occurred. Holocaust deniers from around the world are attending including former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke who claimed that the gas chambers in which millions perished actually did not exist


No, Iran is certainly not a haven of forward thinking and free thought.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:50 AM   #197
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

In June 2004 my wife an I went to Dachau....walked through the gas chamber and past the ovens.

My skin crawls just thinking about it..

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:27 PM   #198
Mark Freeman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Student Protesters Interrupt Ahmadinejad Speech
In Iran, a group of students disrupted a speech by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday. It marked the first major public protest against Ahmadinejad since he took office. The students screamed Death to the Dictator, set photographs of the president on fire and threw firecrackers at him. Ahmadinejad cut his speech short. As he left, students kicked at the car that carried him away. The president's guards did not remove the students or use force to stop the protests.
Typical lefty liberal students, how dare they protest against the incumbent powers, what are they thinking of

Just goes to show you can't tar everyone with the same brush

regards,

Mark

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Old 12-12-2006, 02:55 PM   #199
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:

Just goes to show you can't tar everyone with the same brush
i can say with a straight face that the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Palestine, etc.) is one of the most beautiful and historic areas of the world, full of the best people in the world, and led by some of the biggest tyrants the world has ever known.
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