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Old 11-14-2006, 11:31 AM   #26
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Actually Neil


How come the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation and Afghanistan are the only confrontations mentioned, what about Sudan, Serbia ...
I dunno about Afghanistan (as, it rarely gets coverage in the US); but I certainly agree about Sudan. That problem needs some major world attention, pronto.

Quote:
Societies are very strange entities, they are both divergent and uniform at the same time. A society can be in-fighting and at the same time hold a uniform front towards another. The Arab nation is a huge Society, with multiple internal divisions and fights and wars, yet, it also stands united with regard to some common perceived interests.
Some, but you cannot gauge or predetermine the reactions or designs of a whole society or country, simply on the basis of religion.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:32 AM   #27
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Tom

If you want to argue that 'self-defense' justifies any level of force against any level of threat - then you have just become a apologist for terrorism.

if you don't want to be a champion for terrorism it is essential that you accept the necessity for the limits of the law.

My point was self-defense cannot be disproportionate. And since you failed (or refused) to understand my last point, let me try another way. Me threatening to kick you in the head does not justify you firing a nuclear missile against me.

Saying self-defense must be proportionate is not the same thing as "Passing laws giving away your right to defend yourself".

As far as preventing mass murder in Darfour - The African troops did manage to at least minimize the killings - but then they were there legally.

Mike

"The Jews have fought a defensive battle from the beginning."

It wasn't Arabs who attacked British troops and bombed hotels back when Israel was under British Mandate so what do you mean the beginning?

Or is it that 'defensive' is yet another word you do not know the meaning of.

As far as the part that

"civil laws" are actually a part of their religion.... including killing Jews and Christians as a written part of the religion"

- please quote chapter and verse -

given your limited understanding of English vocabulary I am perfectly prepared to accept that English is not your native language.





And as far as attacks are concerned -
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:38 AM   #28
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Tom Fish wrote:
While kidnapping would seem like an honorable negotiating technique to some people, and errantly aimed rockets are not considered an overt act by some people, how can it be accepted or supported that the overall goal of death to all Israelis is any kind of peace movement? I would accept a free dictionary if it would help me understand how Israel should not be allowed or supported in defending herself.
I'll have to remember to put up signs in my neighborhood, something like this:

"ATTENTION! In the midst of rampant crime and deteriorating conditions, I must put my security-needs foremost. Therefore, I am placing a security checkpoint at the beginning of our street; setting up snipers in the trees; and cutting off your water, to fill my swimming pool.

After all: security is strength, and I have to take any measures to protect myself. Sorry about the kids getting shot, in advance."


Quote:
Until then, I will continue to bumble along with my belief that the strong actions that Israel undertakes to thwart their demise are justified.
Tom Fish
In other words: Israel can do no wrong. Thank you for your honesty.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:46 AM   #29
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I'm sure there is more to it than quassam rockets.

In gassho,
mark
Good post, Mark...I like the randori analogy.
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Old 11-14-2006, 12:55 PM   #30
Tom Fish
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Regardless of your trivializations of other points of view, Mr. Mick, you have adequately demonstrated that when defending your own point of view, you think it is necessary to go to the extremes. I think you may have also taken a slap at neighborhood watch programs and the people who volunteer to keep their neighbors safe. Give peace a chance.
Tom
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Old 11-14-2006, 01:21 PM   #31
David Orange
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1/10th of 1%

Israel is 1/10th of 1% of the land in that region. So take a football field and Israel is 1/10th of the 1-yard line on that field. If the field is 30 yards wide (?) then Israel is 3 yards wide and 1 yard deep on a football field. All the rest is Arab "Muslim" land (much of that used to be "Christian" but in recent years, militant Islam has driven out many of the Christians and taken over areas that were once ruled by Christians). So effectively, you have a football field ruled by Islam and a 1x3 yard area ruled by Jews.

Is there any reason that small area should not be accepted on a football field? Turn it around: if they Jews owned a football field and Arabs occupied 1/10th of 1% of it, people would call the Jews "racist" for trying to remove the Arabs. And in fact, that's sort of what "the occupied territories" amount to. So why is is fair that the Arabs can try to throw Israel off the whole football field, but the Jews cannot control their own 1/10th of a percent of that field?

The Muslim rulers decree that it should not be accepted, that the Jews there should be killed or "thrown into the sea." Ever since the war of independence in 1948, they have tried to do just that.

Which leads to "the occupied territories. Out of Israel's 1/3 yard space on the football field, some fringe areas of about half-a-yard-by-half-a-yard and 8 x 10 inches are the "homelands" of the "Palestinian" people.

Now, before the war of independence, the word "Palestinian" always meant a Jew living in Palestine. From Herzl's time until the war of independence, "Palestinian" meant a Jew. At the time of the war of independence, about 700,000 Jews were cast out of Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and many other areas where they had lived for 2000 years. And from the new land of Israel, about 750,000 Arabs fled (for various reasons) to Gaza and the West Bank (the Arab parts of the Palestinian Mandate). Israel absorbed many of the Jews that were forced from the surrounding muslim lands, but those muslim lands would not accept the Arabs who had left Palestine. They have been made a stateless people and held in camps by the international Arab leadership that finds them more useful as pitiful refugees than as productive, happy citizens of an Arab state. And the world focuses on those tiny fragments of Israel's tiny bit of the vast field of the Arab world. Israel is called a criminal for keeping the Arabs as refugees in those tiny strips of land though the Arab nations could absorb all of them in a breath. But even when the refugees are allowed into other countries, such as Jordan and Lebanon, they are still kept in camps, which are well known hotbeds of violence and insurgency. It is the will of the Arab/Muslim world that they remain forever as refugees or until Israel is abolished.

Further, the Israeli fringe areas of Gaza and the West Bank are highly permeable to terrorists from all the rest of the Arab football field. Egyptians, Syrians, Iranians all filter into the West Bank and Gaza and, from those areas launch incessant attacks, bombings and rockets. Infiltrators come into Israel's 1x3 yard space on the field. They kidnap young boys and girls, mutilate them, behead them, stab and shoot them. They creep into families homes and murder them as they did the athletes in Munich.

So if you tell me you're going to kick me in the head, am I right to nuke you? Maybe not. But if you are 999 times my size and you threaten to kill me (after many, many violent attempts to do just that), I think you deserve a rock right between the eyes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:01 PM   #32
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

i will never understand why there is such a clear divide between Israeli and Lebanese interests. they are one and the same:

- a stable, Democratic, anti-Syrian government under Fouad Siniora can basically guarantee Israeli's safety with regards to Lebanon. Faced with ultimatums and threats, and faced with 4 bombings outside his office in Beirut, he still refused to let Nasrallah's party have veto power.

- as a counter-move, the Shiite's resigned from Siniora's cabinet. now, it is basically powerless once again.

there are two things to take note of:

- Siniora's government was much stronger before the war this summer

- if Israel fights Hezbollah again, it will fail again, and will basically guarantee Shi'ite power. this is my worst nightmare for Lebanon.

i don't understand why the US and Israel are not confronting Syria directly about Hezzy. sure, Iran and has nukes, but they also have the oil. fair enough. Syria, however, they can do something about, and if they isolate syria economically, they will weaken Hezbollah.

i am 100% in favour of Israeli overflights over Lebanon, so long as there are no more attacks.

i hate syria and hezbollah with a passion; i hate what they have done with Lebanon.

Lebanon needs HELP. it is not guilty of anything, it is just weak. it wants to be peaceful and democratic, but it needs help from the west and it is not getting it at all.

there's one thing i don't understand: i read "Haaretz" online, and it is very informative with a good Israeli POV. what i don't understand is that Siniora gets slammed left and right. a strong Siniora government is the best thing for Lebanon *and* for Israel.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:23 PM   #33
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
It is the Jewish homeland on many levels. Heck, their ancestral temple is smack in the middle of Jerusalem -- the city their ancient king built. ..
my dad can beat up your dad. my martial art is more complex than your martial art. my country's history dates back further than yours. your country is a bunch of ignorant haters, while mine stands for justice.

IMO, all parties in the Middle East have created enough injustices to virtually cancel each other out. Palestinians, Lebanese, Israeli's, Syrians, have all killed and maimed at some point or another. there is no argument here, it all goes back to zero.

and let's actually be productive and concentrate on giving all families a place to call home, without fear of being shot or killed on your way to school. who cares where John the Baptist baptized Jesus. what does that have to do with anything?


Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
and at the establishment of Israel, they suddenly became pariahs -- in Syria, Iraq, Persian Iran, and virtually ALL Arab and Muslim countries, they are treated as worse than 2nd-class citizens.
.
I'm guessing Lieberman will not sink to this level when dealing with the Arabs. he is your main party leader, after all.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
The issue is not whether or not Israel is legitimate, but that Arabs want complete and total dominion of the Middle East, and Israel is a bone in their throat. We, in our comfy Western homes, like to pay lip service without understanding what it's like to walk in Israelis' shoes. The liberal press (NPR, etc.) rarely if ever represents Israel's point of view in their reporting; it's the view of the Arabs they project. Israel and the Jewish people fight and struggle daily for the very right to exist in a world that resents them.
.
wow, so many generalizations rolled up into a nice paragraph.

i spent my childhood in Lebanon and was never taught to hate Israel. in fact, some Lebanese get insulted when you call them Arabs so, who, exactly, are these "Arabs?" Like you said, there are 700M of them, and you have to be more specific.



Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Israel doesn't need to apologize to anyone for anything, nor explain itself or the actions it takes to preserve its life.
an elitist point of view. every nation can be guilty of doing something wrong.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:36 PM   #34
RoyK
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Hi Neil, in reply to your post:


Quote:
Questions of extremes are hardly ways to measure reality. Here, let me show you:

Example: "Does the fact that more people die on US highways than all the World Wars, and the Civil War combined, mean that we should all avoid roads altogether, and stop using cars?"
Those who misuse their drivers license and endanger other drivers and pedestrian should be removed from the road, yes.


Quote:
You must realize that there are many more Palestinians than Israeli's who don't know if their children will come back alive because they are targeted daily by the IDF terrorism and snipers...some of them, while they are sitting in class, learning.
I don't believe children are targeted by IDF. The main difference is that when we fail by hitting children, they fail by not hitting children.

At any rate, Palestinians children and adults alike, victims of crossfire, get treated for free in Israeli hospitals. Infact as we speak, while palestinians parade with bodies of their dead children infront of the cameras, Israeli doctors in Tel Aviv are fighting for the lives of their wounded ones. I'm not claiming for altruism, but this act should clearly demonstrate that Israel is not interested, even more, I believe no one can claim that Israel's interests are even served by killing innocent civilian population.

Quote:
Personally, I think that Israel would get a lot farther in the world by building bridges, instead of Apartheid Walls.
I don't like the separtion wall much more than you do. I know policy makers use it to displace population, create enclaves within palestinian territory and predetermine the future borders between Israel and a future palestinian country. But the separation has been successful at thwarting suicide bombers and terrorists from entering Israel, by making their trip longer, thus allowing security agencies to stop them. Preventing suicide bombers does more than save lives, it prevents an escalation in military actions against palestinians and escalation in right wing voters.
I don't know if the pros measure against the cons in this case, but indeed, things are more than black and white.



Quote:
That's right: the right wing parties in Israel ARE extreme, too. Just look at who Olmert tapped for VP: the man wants to drown the Israeli Arabs in the Dead Sea...he'll even provide the buses.
I totally agree with you, this man makes me shriek whenever he opens his big mouth...


Quote:
You mean...Israel's failure to deal with Hizbollah;
I mean the total failure of the UN to uphold resolution 1701, under which Israel agreed to cease fire and stop dealing with the Hizbollah.



Quote:
quiz: WHICH nation, now armed with nuclear weapons, is bombing civilians, invading other countries and popping off cluster bombs like party-favors...? Is it

A. Iran; or B. Israel....

Now tell me, again: who is the"problem" of the MidEast?
Hm, I say all of the above, since Iran clearly arms and sponsors the Hizbollah, and I'm pretty sure it has allot to do with the terrorism tearing up Iraq. True, they're not armed yet with nuclear weapons, but Ahmadinejad says we won't have to wait longer than March 2007.

Oh, I have my own quiz. Which UN member nation is openly calling for the destruction of another UN member nation?
A. Iran B. hmm, the palestinian leadership isn't a nation or a UN member yet, but they meet the rest of the qualifications.



Quote:
and Israel's failure with its own occupational policy of collective punishment, coupled with its domestic policies of racism.
I agree Israel gets a very low grade in all of the above.

Last edited by RoyK : 11-14-2006 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:42 PM   #35
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Tom Fish wrote:
Regardless of your trivializations of other points of view, Mr. Mick, you have adequately demonstrated that when defending your own point of view, you think it is necessary to go to the extremes.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Mr. Fish, esp when you go from

Quote:
My belief is that the struggle is to survive and that until both sides try to find peace the struggle will go on.
to

Quote:
I would accept a free dictionary if it would help me understand how Israel should not be allowed or supported in defending herself.
Now, please tell me again...which person is using "extremes?"

I call 'em the way I see 'em. The logical end-result of your argument, applied to my neighborhood, would be a rationalization of hiring snipers to patrol my neighborhood.

Now, if you find that extreme: I agree. But, I humbly suggest that you look in the mirror, to find extremism in debate.

I am merely pointing out the natural end-result, of your argument.

Quote:
I think you may have also taken a slap at neighborhood watch programs and the people who volunteer to keep their neighbors safe
Only if you're attempting to take my words out of context. You wouldn't be trying to do that, would you?
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:49 PM   #36
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
I don't believe children are targeted by IDF. Infact, whenever civilians get hurt in the crossfire, and that is the main difference. We fail by hitting children, they fail by not hitting children.
At any rate, Palestinians, children and adults alike, get treated for free in Israeli hospitals. I'm not claiming for altruism, but this act should clearly demonstrate that Israel is not interested in killing innocent civilian population.
i agree, this argument is overhyped and is used to fuel more hatred. especially in Lebanon, Hezbollah is capitalizing on the humanitarian situation to win popular support. Israel would never have to attack in the first place if.......

more of a reason for US/Israel to support Siniora. Siniora lives in the future, while Shi'ites make it clear they live in the past
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:53 PM   #37
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
Those who misuse their drivers license and endanger other drivers and pedestrian should be removed from the road, yes.
Nope. You misunderstood my intent. Emphasis on the word "all:"

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Example: "Does the fact that more people die on US highways than all the World Wars, and the Civil War combined, mean that we should all avoid roads altogether, and stop using cars?"
Quote:
I don't believe children are targeted by IDF. Infact, whenever civilians get hurt in the crossfire, and that is the main difference.
Oh really? Then, what about the kids who were shot by IDF snipers, WHILE INSIDE, STUDYING?

What about the kids on their way to school, shot at checkpoints?

What about the family of 6, bombed while picnicking on the beach?

I can go on and on and on, but the fact of the matter is that the IDF IS shooting at children, and this can mean only one of 2 things:

1. The IDF is intentionally shooting at children; or
2. The IDF is incompetent, and people should be fired, jailed, or (at the least) replaced.

So, which is it?

Oh, of course: you can go on denying the reality on the ground. That seems to work, for some...

Quote:
We fail by hitting children, they fail by not hitting children.

The IDF fails by shooting children; suicide bombers (ultimately) fail by killing children. It's very important to get your pronouns right.

Quote:
At any rate, Palestinians, children and adults alike, get treated for free in Israeli hospitals.
When they aren't illegally and semi-permanently jailed....oh, sorry! I meant "given administrative (and indefinite) detention."

Quote:
I'm not claiming for altruism, but this act should clearly demonstrate that Israel is not interested in killing innocent civilian population.
Believe me, if I had the time: I could show you reams of documentation on the IDF killing innocent children. Unfortunately, I've gotta dash and teach class.

To be continued...
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:05 PM   #38
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I can go on and on and on, but the fact of the matter is that the IDF IS shooting at children, and this can mean only one of 2 things:

1. The IDF is intentionally shooting at children; or
2. The IDF is incompetent, and people should be fired, jailed, or (at the least) replaced.
Neil,

if you remember from your WWIII thread, i was saying almost the same things about the IDF, but i am quite shameful about it now.

unless you have direct, audio-taped evidence that shows a clear order to shoot children, then it is too bold of a statement to make.

the only thing dead children proves is how terrible war is, and how it needs to stop not tomorrow, not after breakfast, but NOW. on all sides.

Israel just happens to have weapons that are highly capable of death and destruction. how would others use these weapons?

and while i will never think anything good about Olmert and his government, neither do millions of Israeli's.
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:52 PM   #39
Steve Mullen
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Mike, that snip was part of a bigger post that i chose to delete and i dont know how you actually saw that snippet. i chose to delete it because, whilst i dont agree fully with what you are saying, i thoguht it was a bit of a harsh interpretation of what you were trying to say which was written when i was in a real stinking mood.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:55 PM   #40
Steve Mullen
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmmmm..... I can't see where anyone said that. Maybe some remedial reading comprehension?

The point is that the UN and the countries that *insisted* on a cease-fire, but never enforced it, continue to look like the anti-Israeli, anti-Semites that the Europeans (and others) most definitely were in World War II.

Look at the "cease-fire" and the BS enforcement of it. Hezbollah is re-armed. The kidnapped Israeli soldiers have not been returned. And so on. Nothing said or guaranteed by any Islamic country can ever be counted on. All they understand is extreme force; all the years of aid, "diplomacy", "hearts and minds", etc., have only wound up costing more lives, more money, and less safety. Exactly the lesson the Europeans should have learned from World War II.

The problem being that all the Europeans that insisted on "appeasement now", which ultimately resulted in 50 million deaths, never stepped forward to say "we wuz wrong". They were allowed to escape having to face their own responsibilities. And now, once again, the liberal Europeans are helping lead the appeasement route, even though all the signs are there... once again.

FWIW

Mike

see this is what i was mostly talking about in my post. once again you have skipped the fact that there have been many americans supporting the cease fire, both publically and otherwise. This seems to be totally missed out of your posts.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:03 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
Mike, that snip was part of a bigger post that i chose to delete and i dont know how you actually saw that snippet.
When you post to a thread that people are being notified about "new posts", your original message goes out to them, Steve.

Mike
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Old 11-14-2006, 07:36 PM   #42
Cady Goldfield
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

<i>Israel doesn't need to apologize to anyone for anything, nor explain itself or the actions it takes to preserve its life.</i>
Luc wrote: an elitist point of view. every nation can be guilty of doing something wrong.

Not my intended meaning, Luc. I'm saying that Israel is fighting for its very existance, and Jews have to sue for their very right to be allowed to exist, period. Under those circumstances, you have to act first. There is no second chance when those surrounding you intend to annihilate you.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:04 PM   #43
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
1. The IDF is intentionally shooting at children; or
2. The IDF is incompetent, and people should be fired, jailed, or (at the least) replaced.
Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
unless you have direct, audio-taped evidence that shows a clear order to shoot children, then it is too bold of a statement to make.
Oh, so I need direct, audio-taped evidence to surmise either that the IDF is intentionally shooting at children; or is incompetent???

Please. All I have to do is turn on the news:

Gaza children cannot escape as Israel mounts its bloodiest attack in months

Quote:
Eighteen Palestinian civilians, most of them women and children from the same family, have been killed as they tried to flee a barrage of Israeli artillery shells fired on and around the house where they had been sleeping minutes earlier.

The victims were killed by an estimated 10 to 12 155mm shells which landed on Beit Hanoun less than 24 hours after troops had ended a six-day ground incursion into the northern Gaza town aimed at stopping militants firing Qassam rockets into Israel.

All but one of the dead were members of the Athamneh family and included six children under 16. They were killed when they rushed out into the dirt road beside their four-storey building after the first shell struck, punching a hole two feet in diameter through the roof. Large puddles in the road were still dark with blood five hours after the attack.

The IDF said it "regrets any event in which uninvolved [people] are hurt" while insisting that the "responsibility for civilian casualties" lay with factions who launched Qassam rockets " from the shelter of populated areas". But in an implicit explanation that the killings were caused by human or technical error, the military said the artillery fire was "directed at a location distant from the one reportedly hit".
Gosh, wiping out a family, instead of hitting the target sure sounds like "incompetent" to me...but I guess I need more "audio-taped evidence that shows a clear order to shoot children," to make this claim, right?

Are Babies Legitimate Targets in the Gaza Strip?

Quote:
She continued talking with a tone of anger and stress. What really angered her is the fact that the Israelis knew there were children in the house. "It was one day when the soldiers were inside our home and they imposed siege on us, they didn't let us go out and they kept telling us to shut up or they were going to shoot us. The soldiers purposely kept scaring the children by pointing their weapons at them. The children were not even allowed to go to the bathroom while the soldiers were there." Holding a Palestinian flag in her hands she said, "This is the reason we are being killed, we are Palestinians. The soldiers are angry because we have the flag of our country." The Israeli soldiers told her they did not want Palestinians to live. While crying, she put the bullet-ridden Palestinian flag back on the wall saying, "But Israel who kills innocents will not kill the spirit of the Palestinians who remain alive. Shame on America which provides Israel with weapons. Shame on America for remaining silent while their Israeli allies murder innocent civilians and commit crimes against humanity. She then prepared to go to another one of many funerals in occupied Palestine
Palestine Today - October 31, 2006

Quote:
Qabha was detained as he joined several residents who gathered peacefully awaiting the release of a two-year old child, named Aisha Al Holadly, and her mother at the Ofer Israeli detention facility. Etaf Oleyyan, the mother of Aisha, is under administrative detention orders and her husband Waleed Al Hodaly is a freed detainee.
Waleed, the minister and several other residents also gathered near Ofer awaiting an Israeli response to an appeal filed by Etaf against renewing her administrative detention order for the third time, and demanding to be freed with her infant.
Gaza military siege ‘made in USA'

Quote:
Operation "Autumn Cloud"—the Israeli offensive against the population in the Gaza Strip—began on Nov. 1. Within six days, some 57 Palestinian women, men and children had been killed and hundreds more wounded.
I could easily fill pages with accounts of the IDF (and IAF) murdering children. A search engine and a determined 3rd grader could do it.

Do I need some "audio-taped, full-bore-smoking-gun-trail" to show that the IDF is culpable? Where I come from, ppl, AND gov't's, are supposed to be responsible, for the things that they do...even the mistakes.

If a child gets killed once in awhile in the line of fire...OK, war is hell. I'll buy that.

But, to pooh-pooh these habitual and regular-as-clockwork murders as "oh, well: that's just war-biz" is to dehumanize and devalue the lives of those who were victims of the IDF.

And, I'm sorry that you feel comfortable doing that, Luc.

Quote:
the only thing dead children proves is how terrible war is, and how it needs to stop not tomorrow, not after breakfast, but NOW. on all sides.

Israel just happens to have weapons that are highly capable of death and destruction. how would others use these weapons?
Yeah: poor, poor Israel...what's a client-state with a mad-on for collective punishment, and anointed by the Superpower with a carte-blanche, no holds-barred, illegal Occupation going to do?

Quote:
and while i will never think anything good about Olmert and his government, neither do millions of Israeli's.
Yes...Israeli's, IMO, are beginning to see the folly of Occupation. It hurts them as much as it does the Palestinian's, in sum.

P.S. Happy birthday, Luc. Mine is coming up, soon.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 11-14-2006 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:24 PM   #44
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

And now, back to YOU, Roy...where's that whuppin' stick?

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Roy Klein wrote:
But the separation has been successful at thwarting suicide bombers and terrorists from entering Israel, by making their trip longer, thus allowing security agencies to stop them. Preventing suicide bombers does more than save lives, it prevents an escalation in military actions against palestinians and escalation in right wing voters.
I don't know if the pros measure against the cons in this case, but indeed, things are more than black and white.
Uh huh. OK, suppose you were my neighbor. And, one day I come by to tell you that because of security problems I'll be needing to build a huge wall through your property, bisecting your front yard. The resulting structure would mean that you'd have to walk out the back door and walk 6 blocks around it, just to get to your car.

But, this would be OK for you, right? I mean...it WOULD keep out the burglars, murderers, and potential suicide bombers, after all...you wouldn't mind that, would you?

After all, things ARE more than simple black and white (i.e., when I invade your property: you need to take the bigger issues, into account. No need to be thinking of yourself, after all...look at the big picture! This wall will make ALL of us safer! And besides, you always complained about the view... )

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I totally agree with you, this man makes me shriek whenever he opens his big mouth...
Yeah, you should...and, he's now your veep...what does THAT tell ya??

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I mean the total failure of the UN to uphold resolution 1701, under which Israel agreed to cease fire and stop dealing with the Hizbollah.
And I mean the total failure of Israel, to deal with Hezbollah. You bombed Lebanon back to the stone age; spreading cluster bombs in your wake; violating the ceasefire agreement whenever you could...and, where did all that get you?

Nothing. Worse than nothing.

Quote:
Hm, I say all of the above, since Iran clearly arms and sponsors the Hizbollah, and I'm pretty sure it has allot to do with the terrorism tearing up Iraq. True, they're not armed yet with nuclear weapons, but Ahmadinejad says we won't have to wait longer than March 2007.
I'm far, far more worried about the US and Israeli terror, than I am about Iranian terror. Just look at the body-count so far: I'd say we're beating the Iranian's in human rights crimes and violations by a mile.

Quote:
Oh, I have my own quiz. Which UN member nation is openly calling for the destruction of another UN member nation?
A. Iran B. hmm, the palestinian leadership isn't a nation or a UN member yet, but they meet the rest of the qualifications.
Ok, I can play that game too. Which UN member nation(s) have actually gone on and invaded and systematically destroyed another UN member nation?

(hint: neither of them have Islam listed as their state religion...)

Go ahead...take your time answering. As I said...I'm a patient man...

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I agree Israel gets a very low grade in all of the above.
Thank you! WE can agree on that point, at least.
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:16 AM   #45
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

To David Orange

Clever post. Totally invalid reasoning - but then you know that.

Whilst you may find it convenient to lump the entire middle east together as "Arabs against Israel" you are aware that at the moment Iraq isn't against anyone except mostly other Iraqi's ,the last war they were aggressors in was about the Invasion of Kuwait. The last war Iran fought was against Iraq. Afghanistan isn't attacking Israel either. And while Egypt may have support attacks against Israel in 1948 it's president won a joint Nobel peace prize in the 1970s (so maybe things change)

You argument seems to be "they're all Arabs" That's like arguing that if Holland declares war France, Germany, & Britain will all automatically support it because "They're all white. (Hitler apparently thought that Britain would support him given the links between the countries).

So we know that Israel aren't facing an enemy 999 times larger than themselves(even before we consider the disparity of weaponry in Israel's favour). All of which leaves you arguing that there is a threat to Israeli's - which I accept - therefore anything they do whilst claiming to defend themselves must be justified (the end justifies the means - where have I heard that before)an argument I do not accept as valid.

As far as the denial of nationality - you're right and the worst of the lot is Lebanon which denies nationality even to Palestinians who were born there.

On the other hand does the USA automatically give nationality to every refugee in their country, I know Britain doesn't.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:20 AM   #46
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:

And, I'm sorry that you feel comfortable doing that, Luc.
feel sorry for me because my country is mutilated, not because i'm trying to move on

Neil, look at your WWIII thread. needless to say, i was angry. but if Lebanese people stayed angry and preached hate, we would have never lasted as a country. after 30 years of nightmares and devastation, it is love and pride that keeps us going. not finger pointing and hatred. go to Lebanon, Neil, and you'll understand. everyone has lost a loved one. everyone has a story of a bomb that almost killed them. we are tired, we are sick of war. no more hatred. no more killing.



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Neil Mick wrote:

P.S. Happy birthday, Luc. Mine is coming up, soon.
thanks

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 11-15-2006 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:29 AM   #47
RoyK
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

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"The Jews have fought a defensive battle from the beginning."

It wasn't Arabs who attacked British troops and bombed hotels back when Israel was under British Mandate so what do you mean the beginning?
Allow me to fix several inaccuracies..
Israel was established AFTER the British Mandate, you are referring to the "Jewish settlement". But since the original argument was referring to the Jewish national and not the Israeli national, that's not to falsify the argument.

However, those who bombed hotels were members of seperatists militant organizations that were out of the Jewish Settlement concensus, and were (and still are) considered terrorists by Jews and Israel.
You can't take the exception of a group and apply its behavior to the group, it's unfair.
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:39 AM   #48
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
You can't take the exception of a group and apply its behavior to the group, it's unfair.
tell me about it!
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:01 AM   #49
RoyK
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Uh huh. OK, suppose you were my neighbor. And, one day I come by to tell you that because of security problems I'll be needing to build a huge wall through your property, bisecting your front yard. The resulting structure would mean that you'd have to walk out the back door and walk 6 blocks around it, just to get to your car.
Allow me to correct the analogy. Suppose you were my neighbor. Now, suppose your sons and daughters systematically invade my house to cause all sorts of inconveniences and risk my family's life. Suppose you do nothing to stop them, then yes, I would build a huge wall to keep them out, or move to a friendlier neighborhood (as suggested by Iran's president).

I agreed with the second part(I wouldn't want you to walk 6 blocks to your car), and I mentioned that I find the wall's outline disputable, but that doesn't change the fact that I need to keep your children off my family's throats.


Quote:
Yeah, you should...and, he's now your veep...what does THAT tell ya??
That any future negotiation between Israel and the PLO will have to be conducted through and with heavy international pressure, which won't happen, which is pretty sad.


Quote:
You bombed Lebanon back to the stone age; spreading cluster bombs in your wake; violating the ceasefire agreement whenever you could...and, where did all that get you?
They violate the ceasefire by rearming and regrouping, Israel violates it by taking pictures of them doing so, and Israel's the one getting threats by the French. Talk about bias!


Quote:
Ok, I can play that game too. Which UN member nation(s) have actually gone on and invaded and systematically destroyed another UN member nation?
What is the Hizbollah if not an Iranian proxy trying to bring down the Lebanese government RIGHT NOW? During the war, Even Lebanese ministers blamed the Hizbollah for what has happened.
AND If you recall correctly, Hizbollah warriors invaded Israel to ambush and kidnap Israeli soldiers. Later they went on to rain a hellstorm of missiles that killed many, destroyed many and crippled the economy of Israel. Tally two for Iran.




Quote:
Thank you! WE can agree on that point, at least.
I never claim that Israel is not an active party in the chaos around it. The current Israeli government is an expert at doing things the wrong way, but that doesn't mean it is the only source of problem in the region. It takes more than one trouble maker to start a gang war...

I think you would be surprised at the amount of basic principles you and I share.
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:10 AM   #50
RoyK
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

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more of a reason for US/Israel to support Siniora. Siniora lives in the future, while Shi'ites make it clear they live in the past
Luc, Ever heard of the term "Bear hug"? If Israel's current government (I assume its not very popular in Lebanon) would openly support Siniora, that would probably bury him politically!

I honestly hope Israel is working behind the stages to support him and the Lebanese government.
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