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Old 11-13-2006, 07:51 AM   #1
Mike Sigman
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So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Like the BS before World War II, our "Give Peace a Chance" factions in the world have led us to another predictable situation where more people will be killed than if the job had been done in the first place. Exactly the model set for us by the Europeans in World War II and which they continue to follow everytime, even though it leads to more trouble everytime:


The Sunday Times November 12, 2006


Hezbollah's missiles back in Lebanon
Uzi Mahnaimi, Tel Aviv



FOUR months after Israel launched its onslaught against Hezbollah, the Lebanese guerrillas are back in south Lebanon stronger than ever and armed with more rockets than they had before the conflict, according to Israeli intelligence.
During the month-long war, which began on July 12, Hezbollah fired 200 to 250 rockets a day into Israel, killing 43 civilians and terrorising much of the north of the country.



"Since the ceasefire, additional rockets, weapons and military equipment have reached Hezbollah," said an Israeli intelligence officer. "We assume they now have about 20,000 rockets of all ranges — a bit more than they had before July 12."

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, has confirmed the Israeli estimate. In a recent interview with al-Manar, the Hezbollah television station, he claimed his organisation had restocked its arsenal and now held at least 30,000 rockets, sufficient for five months of war.

Israeli military intelligence has warned the government that renewed fighting with Hezbollah, which it regards as a terrorist organisation, should be expected as early as next spring.

In response, Israeli forces have taken emergency action. They have postponed a plan to reduce the length of national service — currently 36 months for men and about 24 months for women — and are stepping up production of better armoured tanks.

They are also grouping all special forces into a single new division and are developing laser technology, jointly with the United States, to shoot down Hezbollah's rockets.

On the border with Lebanon it is easy to understand Israeli concerns. A sniper from the Israeli 50th infantry brigade said last week that Hezbollah was active, although its members wore civilian clothes rather than uniforms.

The sniper, a 24-year-old lawyer from New York on national service, watched through his gun sight as a young man carrying an AK-47 assault rifle climbed from a Jeep. "He was walking quickly and all of a sudden he disappeared into a hidden shelter," he said. "Then the guy went back to the Jeep and back to the tunnel, checking how quickly he could get there. Then he climbed into the Jeep and drove away.

He added: "We feel that Hezbollah are constantly there, though we rarely see any weapons."

The Israeli military estimates that at least 5,000 rockets are hidden in secret shelters along the border, which it failed to find before the ceasefire came into effect on August 14.

Iranian-made long-range Zelzal rockets, which could reach Tel Aviv, have been stored in hidden locations. "We're now in a race to locate the new rockets," said a Mossad source.

Tracking down the Iranian rockets was one of Israel's few military successes in the summer. According to sources, the Israeli air force destroyed them on the first night of battle. "We believe Hezbollah have learnt their lesson and it will be much harder to locate them next time," said the source.

Israel has not yet found a way to tackle the threat from the short and medium-range rockets. It is developing the Nautilus laser-guided cannon in an attempt to intercept them. "It still remains to be seen if the laser gun will work," said another source. "But it will take up to three years and might be too late for the next war."

Israel is alarmed at the burgeoning self-confidence of Nasrallah and what it perceives as his intention to undermine Lebanon's fragile government and take over the country's politics.

Talks in Beirut to defuse the crisis collapsed yesterday. Nasrallah has set a deadline of tomorrow for his demands to be met or he will stage mass demonstrations.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:01 AM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
So all the problems between Hezbollah and Israel are caused by the Europeans in WW2? thats interesting.
Hmmmmmm..... I can't see where anyone said that. Maybe some remedial reading comprehension?

The point is that the UN and the countries that *insisted* on a cease-fire, but never enforced it, continue to look like the anti-Israeli, anti-Semites that the Europeans (and others) most definitely were in World War II.

Look at the "cease-fire" and the BS enforcement of it. Hezbollah is re-armed. The kidnapped Israeli soldiers have not been returned. And so on. Nothing said or guaranteed by any Islamic country can ever be counted on. All they understand is extreme force; all the years of aid, "diplomacy", "hearts and minds", etc., have only wound up costing more lives, more money, and less safety. Exactly the lesson the Europeans should have learned from World War II.

The problem being that all the Europeans that insisted on "appeasement now", which ultimately resulted in 50 million deaths, never stepped forward to say "we wuz wrong". They were allowed to escape having to face their own responsibilities. And now, once again, the liberal Europeans are helping lead the appeasement route, even though all the signs are there... once again.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:02 AM   #3
Mark Gibbons
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...more people will be killed than if the job had been done in the first place. ...I]
What would "doing the job in the first place" have looked like? Maybe unrestricted total war followed by an occupation, if there was anything left? I don't think a massive war would work did you mean something else?

Regards,
Mark
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:40 AM   #4
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Mike Anti Israeli and anti-Semitic are NOT the same thing.

Remember that being Jewish and being Israeli are not automatically the same thing.

Hell it's not even certain that being Israeli automatically means you're Jewish.

Nor does it follow that being Israeli means that you support the IDF's or Governments actions.

But 'if the JOB had been "done in the first place". there would have been what - less total people killed, less Palestinians killed, less civilians killed ,what?

To be honest if you want to traced back the current upsurge - it seems to come down to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, or the kidnapping of Palestinians a few days earlier or massive assault a few days after.

Should a cease fire automatically weaken the already weaker party? The party that suffers by far the largest number of civilian deaths?

Or should we have disarme the Palestinians whilst the IDF is on their doorstep.

BTW - The Yanks were as guilty of ant-semitism as the rest of us certainly prior to WWII
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:44 AM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote:
What would "doing the job in the first place" have looked like? Maybe unrestricted total war followed by an occupation, if there was anything left? I don't think a massive war would work did you mean something else?
Instead of always questioning "our side" and how "it will never work so we should just give up", why don't you think of and insist on some solutions on the Arabs' part? If the world would start pressuring the Arabs instead of the US and Israel's every response, maybe the Arabs would change? I realize this is a novel idea. But the Arabs depend heavily on a PR war to keep the "blame the West first" attitude strong among some factions in the West, particularly the liberals and the liberal press.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 11-13-2006 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:52 AM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Mike Anti Israeli and anti-Semitic are NOT the same thing.
In most cases it is, though, despite the dissimulations and protestations.
Quote:
But 'if the JOB had been "done in the first place". there would have been what - less total people killed, less Palestinians killed, less civilians killed ,what?

To be honest if you want to traced back the current upsurge - it seems to come down to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, or the kidnapping of Palestinians a few days earlier or massive assault a few days after.
No, it actually comes from the Arabs continuing, with the help of the anti-semitic Europeans, to war against Israel, with no helpful responsive measures being taken by the Europeans. The Europeans, just like in World War II, have done absolutely nothing substantively constructive (other than a few token "military contributions) about enforcing a peace in the Middle East.
Quote:
Should a cease fire automatically weaken the already weaker party? The party that suffers by far the largest number of civilian deaths?

Or should we have disarme the Palestinians whilst the IDF is on their doorstep.
You're watching, right now, what Hebollah, Iran, et al are doing and you're prepared to "Blame the West" and "Blame Israel". If we disarmed the Palestinians, peace would result. If we disarm Israel, they will be destroyed. And you will be happy. You're part of the problem, David.
Quote:
BTW - The Yanks were as guilty of ant-semitism as the rest of us certainly prior to WWII
Oh really? Is *that* why the Jews left England, whenever possible, and emigrated to the US. As one of your columnists noted, the reason so many Brits have no empathy with Jews is because they all left England and went to the US. France shipped Jews to concentration camps. And so on. This habit of "always try to shift the blame to the US" is rather a slimey debate habit of your, David. Where have I seen you blame the Arabs for anything, other than as a token lip-service to pretend you're being balanced, just before another West-blaming diatribe?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:36 AM   #7
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Mike

If you really want me to sink down to your level I will.

FYI - It is still far more Palestinian individuals being killed than Israeli's. There are far more UN Resolutions against Israel than anyone else in the region. Far more are killed by IDF bombs,and missiles and artillery shells

Of Course to really enforce the peace you would have to get the IDF to retreat inside their own borders- they don't have to disarm and they certainly wouldn't be destroyed.

So the argument is to ensure peace take away all weapons from the weaker side and let the stronger invade and kill whoever they wish (Now why does that sound so familiar?)

Also I didn't Blame the US - I just pointed out that you don't have any basis for claiming any 'moral' superiority' over anyone (except the Germans) for their actions prior to WW!!

Now before you reply please resist the temptation to claim that criticizing an army that deliberately and knowing fires missiles at unarmed and defenseless women counts as anti-semitism.

You may think I'm part of the problem - but you also thought that invading Iraq was a solution.

Still, hopefully someone will buy you a dictionary for Christmas
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:51 AM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
If you really want me to sink down to your level I will.
Good start, and indicative of your character.
Quote:
FYI - It is still far more Palestinian individuals being killed than Israeli's.
But has that stopped them from continuous attacks? No. This BS of how many Arabs are being killed and yet ignoring the fact that *they* are the aggressors is ludicrous. Look how many Germans wound up being killed *proportionately* in WWII.... bad, bad Allies, eh?
Quote:
There are far more UN Resolutions against Israel than anyone else in the region.
In fact, 25% of all resolutions passed by the UN, with its heavy Arab and their allies make-up, are against Israel. No resolutions of note are passed against any Arab country, even when large in-country killings take place. Yet this is not a hidden fact, so I can only assume you're simply being dishonest by not mentioning it when you try to point out how many resolutions the dissolute and corrupt UN passes against Israel. The problem with the UN is not Israel... it's the UN. We need to disband the UN for the same reasons the League of Nations was disbanded. It's useless.
Quote:
Of Course to really enforce the peace you would have to get the IDF to retreat inside their own borders- they don't have to disarm and they certainly wouldn't be destroyed.
Really? Back inside the borders of the State of Israel... or the borders the Arabs would like them to retreat to? I haven't seen anyone trying to get the Arabs to stick to any borders, which they freely transgress and attack over. In fact, legally the Lebanese recently attacked Israel, but they chose to not hold the Lebanese government accountable.
Quote:
Also I didn't Blame the US - I just pointed out that you don't have any basis for claiming any 'moral' superiority' over anyone (except the Germans) for their actions prior to WW!!
I wish you guys had claimed all of that before World War II or during the Cold War when the US guaranteed your freedom from Russia or now, when the US military forces are still counted upon in some emergency, thus freeing up the EU governments to be socialist welfare states.

I'm simply hoping that we actually withdraw and let the Europeans handle their own problems for a while and grow some spines. Meanwhile, we'll all study Arabic over here so that we can deal with the future Eurabia... because that's what's going to happen, dearheart.

Mike
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:58 AM   #9
Mark Gibbons
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Instead of always questioning "our side" and how "it will never work so we should just give up", why don't you think of and insist on some solutions on the Arabs' part? If the world would start pressuring the Arabs instead of the US and Israel's every response, maybe the Arabs would change? I realize this is a novel idea. But the Arabs depend heavily on a PR war to keep the "blame the West first" attitude strong among some factions in the West, particularly the liberals and the liberal press.

Mike
What leverage to we have on the "Arabs" that would lead them to dream up solutions? I don't see any. Should we start our own PR war to make the "ARABS" look bad? How could they look worse than now? I don't see any reason any Eastern nation would care in the least about my opinion. BTW where did the quote "it will never work so we should just give up" come from?
Regards,
Mark
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Old 11-13-2006, 11:20 AM   #10
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Mike

"I wish you guys had claimed all of that before World War II or during the Cold War when the US guaranteed your freedom from Russia"

I think we are all aware of just how ignorant you are of history - after all you are they guy who didn't realize the the bombing of Pearl Harbor has something to do with the US's entry into WW11

But please can you stop advertising it - think how embarrassing it must be for your countrymen to have someone actively living down to the stereotype of the ignorant Yank.

And anyway you have a President to do that.

But For your information - Britain had already won the battle of Britain and captured the Enigma machine before the US entered the War.

Finally getting to your point that driving into someone Else's territory with lots of tanks and killing lots of people doesn't amount to "aggression" but firing back does - again that sounds strangely familiar.

Still hoping you get a dictionary for Christmas
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Old 11-13-2006, 11:52 AM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Oops. Here's another editorial along the same lines about the European sidelines critics:

The Vote Heard Around the World
November 12, 2006 02:00 PM EST




Any way you slice it, Tuesday's election was a kick in the gut for President Bush and the Republicans. The Democrats, on the other hand, had a great day at the track, hitting the trifecta of both houses of Congress plus the head of Donald Rumsfeld on a platter. After sorting through the wreckage, the GOP will have some soul searching to do to find out how to recover in time for 2008.

What happened? Simply put, the Republicans blew it. A perfect storm of scandals (revved up by the media, but scandals nonetheless), the Iraq War, and inept campaigns (that means you, George Allen) swept the Democrats to victory.

To be fair, the D's played a great hand. They fielded some conservative "Blue Dog" candidates, painted every Republican opponent -- even those with no experience at the federal level -- as being for the war, and mumbled over the details of their actual plan.

Game. Set. Match. The House will now come to order, Speaker Pelosi presiding (insert shuddering here).

Joining Alec Baldwin and Michael Moore in the champagne popping and backslapping was just about every Bush hater around the globe - the "we like Americans, but hate your president" crowd. In an unusual move, 200 Socialist members of the European Parliament touted the American election results as "the beginning of the end of a six-year nightmare for the world." Newspaper editorials were similarly giddy over the outcome, happy that the "cowboy" had finally been dealt a dose of humility.

Being something of a sixty-year nightmare themselves, socialists across the pond have a lot of nerve phrasing their glee in such a manner. It is American "cowboys," after all, that have afforded Europe the very luxury of their welfare state lifestyles. Ronald Reagan, derided at the time much as George Bush is now, made nuclear deterrence a cornerstone of his foreign policy, providing Europe with a tacit umbrella of protection. The current president's foray in Iraq, agree with it or not, has at the very least been a diversion for every jihadist willing to strap TNT to his chest and blow up some infidels. It is certainly better to lure them into Iraq to take on men with M-16's rather than have them climbing aboard commuter trains in Madrid or London. (There is something to be said for five years without a domestic terror incident in the US.)

Another point of contention between Europeans and the Bush administration has been the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. With three meals per day (detainees gain an average of 18 pounds), access to top-notch medical care, and a vast library of books available, one wonders what is missing? Perhaps turn down service and a halal mint on the pillow?

Despite the histrionic indignation over treating terrorist prisoners like, well, terrorist prisoners, Europe's governments have fought every attempt to have their own countrymen repatriated from Gitmo. London turned down 10 former British residents, arguing that it would be too expensive to keep them under surveillance. Ditto Berlin, which in August permitted the return of a Turkish national raised in Germany…four years after turning down a US proposal to release him.

The State Department's chief legal adviser, John Bellinger III, summed it up nicely: "In practical terms, it's not enough to say, 'Guantanamo should be closed,' without suggesting the next sentence: What do you do with the people who are there?"

Excellent question. I doubt that the European elite, much better at complaining than making hard choices or proposing alternatives, care to field that one. Indeed, our erstwhile allies have made an art form of criticizing from the bench. When offered a ball and glove, however, they usually decline. Why bother getting your uniform dirty when you don't have to?

Which brings it back to the Democrats. They have also had the luxury of critiquing the president's every move from the safety of the sidelines. After trumpeting for years that they would do things "differently" or "smarter," we finally get to see exactly what that means.

Let's hope they get it right, because the stakes have never been higher.
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Old 11-13-2006, 03:12 PM   #12
Cady Goldfield
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Anti-Semitism and anti-Israel can't really be separated, because in general, all are descended from the same tribal group of Middle-Eastern origin. The Israelis are the ones who have returned to re-settle their ancestral lands. After 2,000 years of diaspora, there has been some in-mixing of other ethnicities, (and a number of people of non-Jewish ancestry have settled in Israel too, taking advantage of its open, Democratic society) but the majority of their history (and DNA) harks from this home region.

It is the Jewish homeland on many levels. Heck, their ancestral temple is smack in the middle of Jerusalem -- the city their ancient king built. But no one seems to be upset by the fact that Muslims built their Al-Aqsa shrine right on top of its ruins, claiming it was where Mohammed ascended to heaven... (a couple thousand years after Jews built their temple there). Now they use it as a point of contention, complaining that the presence of Jews descrates their sacred site.

To hate Israel is to deny a basic principle of Hebrew/Jewish ancestry and heritage. While Arabs squawk about alleged injustices to them, you don't hear about the fact that Jews have dwelt in Arab lands for millennia, and at the establishment of Israel, they suddenly became pariahs -- in Syria, Iraq, Persian Iran, and virtually ALL Arab and Muslim countries, they are treated as worse than 2nd-class citizens. No one seems to care about the poverty and persecution they face daily. Automatically, every Jew was suspected of being a Zionist spy. This has not changed in the 6 decades of Israel's existance.


Arabs exist in vastly larger numbers and have conquered large chunks of Africa, Europe and the Middle East over the previous millennia. Their continued ethnic dominance is making itself very evident now in Sudan, where they are displacing the indigenous black ethnic groups through genocide and rape. I don't hear much of an uproar here over the fact that Arabs, who number at over 700,000 (as compared to a scant 13 million Jews of Hebrew-Semitic descent), dominate that quadrant of the globe.

The issue is not whether or not Israel is legitimate, but that Arabs want complete and total dominion of the Middle East, and Israel is a bone in their throat. We, in our comfy Western homes, like to pay lip service without understanding what it's like to walk in Israelis' shoes. The liberal press (NPR, etc.) rarely if ever represents Israel's point of view in their reporting; it's the view of the Arabs they project. Israel and the Jewish people fight and struggle daily for the very right to exist in a world that resents them.

A scant 13 million ethnic-Hebrew Jews in the entire world vs. 700 million Arabs/900 million Muslims. Israel itself is only 6 million of those Jews, immediately surrounded by 22 million of those Arab plus the hate-filled Persians of Iran. Israel doesn't need to apologize to anyone for anything, nor explain itself or the actions it takes to preserve its life.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-13-2006 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 06:51 PM   #13
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Oy, vey.

It seems that David is goin' snipe-hunting (Mike-hunting?) again.

And, just reading your end of the posts, I have the feeling that you're beating his strawmen to a messy, insensate, pulpy mess.

Here, I gotta peek, just to be sure.

(*click*) ooh. No, not a pretty picture.

(*click*) whew. That makes the screen all better. More...logical; less...gorey.

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Mike

If you really want me to sink down to your level I will.
Oh, please don't. I'm pulling out the rubber galoshes, already.

But, hand me that bat, willya? I'm in the mood for a little straw-bashin'.

Here...let's just look at the record of recent Israeli activities, so far...

1. In the town of Beit Hanoun (in Gaza), 19 dead, dozens wounded, including 7 children, dead.

2. Total number of dead in Gaza, since Israel's re-invasion of Gaza, in June: 350

3. Total number of casualties, from Palestinian rocket-fire, since June: 0

4. Total percantage of cluster-bombs dropped by Israel on Lebanese civilian populations in the last 48 hrs of the war: 85%

Quote:
UN Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland wrote:
"Colleagues in the UN Mine Action Co-Ordination Centre have undertaken assessments of nearly 85 per cent of bombed areas in South Lebanon have identified 359 separate cluster bomb strike locations that are contaminated with as many as 100,000 unexploded bomblets. What's shocking and I would say to me completely immoral is that 90 per cent of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution, when we really knew there would be an end of this."
5. Israel knowingly targeted and bombed Gaza's only power plant, this Summer, leaving Gaza without power.

6. Israel's good buddy, the US, has used its veto-power about 70 times since it became a member of the SC. More than half of those were used on behalf of Israel...most recently used to veto the UN condemnation of the 19 killed, in Beit Hanoun.

And the capper...

Quote:
Mike S wrote:
Look at the "cease-fire" and the BS enforcement of it. Hezbollah is re-armed. The kidnapped Israeli soldiers have not been returned. And so on. Nothing said or guaranteed by any Islamic country can ever be counted on.
Quote:
8/31/06 wrote:
Hezbollah Renews Call for Prisoner Swap
Back in Lebanon, Hezbollah has repeated calls for a negotiated prisoner exchange with Israel. This is Hezbollah member and Lebanese Minister of Water and Energy Mohammed Fneish.

Lebanese Minister of Water and Energy Mohammed Fneish: "From the beginning, from when the resistance abducted the two Israeli soldiers, the position was clear. The aim of this operation was to negotiate a swap through indirect negotiations. This position was taken before the aggression, and it is only normal that we enforce our position in that there is no unconditional release and it can only be achieved through a swap and indirect negotiations."

Israel has publicly dismissed calls for a prisoner swap.
Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: Can you first respond to this news that there may be some deal worked out for the release of the Israeli soldier?

DR. MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: Yes, absolutely. There is a deal, and this deal is accepted by Palestinian groups, and there are certain international mediators that have been mediating to conclude it with Egypt. And the deal is about releasing the Israeli soldiers, and in exchange for releasing a small limited number of Palestinian prisoners, with a promise that a bigger number will be released out of the 10,000 Palestinian prisoners that include 150 women and 450 children, and to have complete and total bilateral ceasefire, which means Israel would stop completely bombarding Gaza, take out its troops from Gaza Strip, and Palestinians would abstain from any form of military action. I think it's a great deal. I don't know why the Israelis do not want to implement it.
I could well go on and on, but lemme save you all a step, you Virtual Freedom Fighters of Israel.

Israel is not to blame. In fact, Israel is NEVER to blame. They can make a pile of bodies to the moon, bomb families in their sleep, build walls around every single Arab's house, mine and bomb their lands, deny access to clean water, and it's all good.

Know why? Because: they're defending themselves.

And, Israel has every right to systematically violate every human rights law on the books, because they're our "friends."

No One Is Guilty in Israel

Quote:
No one is guilty in Israel. There is never anyone guilty in Israel. The prime minister who is responsible for the brutal policy toward the Palestinians, the defense minister who knew about and approved the bombardments, the chief of staff, the chief of command and the commander of the division who gave the orders to bombard - not one of them is guilty. They will continue with the work of killing as though nothing has happened: The sun shone, the system flourished and the ritual slaughterer slaughtered. They will continue to pursue the routine of their daily lives, accepted in society like anyone else, and remain in their posts despite the blood on their hands.

A few hours after the disaster, while the Gaza Strip was still enveloped in sorrow and deep in shock, the air force was already hastening to carry out another targeted killing, an arrogant demonstration of just how much this disaster does not concern us.
.

Whew: thanks, David (*handing bat back*). THAT sure got the kinks out!

You may now return to collect the pieces of your strawmen; reflect, and resume the silly accusations of anti-Semitism, once again.
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:17 PM   #14
Neil Mick
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The "Clash of Civilizations" is a silly idea

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
The issue is not whether or not Israel is legitimate, but that Arabs want complete and total dominion of the Middle East, and Israel is a bone in their throat.
Oh please, stop with the silliness. I'd expect this stuff from Mikey: but any adult will realize that this "clash of civilizations" nonsense is a naive, and oversimplistic, model of human society.

We are more than just tiny components of juggernaut cultures headed for a collision course. The same person could be French, an African-American, Jewish, an Aikidoist, a vegetarian, a mother, an Arabic speaker, a Buddhist, a Conservative.

Societies are not so neatly drawn down lines of religion, and they certainly are not the monolithic entities that your post implies. Even within Arabic cultures you have a very complex mix of clans, families, ethnicities, and religion.
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:36 PM   #15
Cady Goldfield
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Actually, it is pretty basic and comes down to control of land and resources. This transcends humanity, and is, in fact the "prime directive" of all living organisms. You need to see past the trees to the forest. The Israelis want their land. So do the Arabs. Layers of rationale pile on top of it, but it is nothing more than the most basic primal principle.
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Old 11-13-2006, 11:08 PM   #16
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Actually, it is pretty basic and comes down to control of land and resources.
Actually, it's a basically artificial model of how societies react and has little bearing in history, beyond a strictly European model of nation-states (and even then, limited).

Quote:
This transcends humanity, and is, in fact the "prime directive" of all living organisms.
This transcends nothing, and is, in fact little better than a re-clothing of "Manifest Destiny," and other flawed idealisms.

Quote:
You need to see past the trees to the forest.
You need to see past the trees to the forest.

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The Israelis want their land. So do the Arabs. Layers of rationale pile on top of it, but it is nothing more than the most basic primal principle.
OK, here's where I diverge from the script.

Sorry, but this is, again, silly. You might like to excuse greedy and illegal settlements and power-grabs and clothe the excuse in apologist "Clash of Nations" rhetoric, but I don't.

If its all about Arab's vs. Israeli's: then why did Hussein invade Kuwait? Why did he attack Iran?? Why is there so much sectarian violence going on in Iraq, if its just "us vs. them?"

If there is little difference within the ranks of the "Arab menace:" what's the big deal about having Hamas lead the Pal. gov't? One group's as bad as the next, right?

Again, people, communities and societies are bound together with much more complex ties than a simple religious divide. Muslims and Jews have all sorts of commonalities. There are Israeli Arabs, as there are Christian Arabs, as there are Jews living in Lebanon.

This idea of some secret, transnational Arab plot reminds me of the bugaboo logic we used to dredge up during the Communist-area. Apologist, with a whiff of narcissistic paranoia.
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Old 11-14-2006, 02:45 AM   #17
RoyK
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:

3. Total number of casualties, from Palestinian rocket-fire, since June: 0
If I didn't know any better, this remark would make me think that you resent the fact that the countless Qassam missiles missed their human targets.

Does the fact that in every military operation, even operations that are clearly necessary for the short term and long term security of Israel, civilians lives are lost and tragedies occur, means Israel should cease all military activity? You must realize that parents from southern towns, who send their children to kindergarden and schools, not knowing if they will come back alive because they are targeted daily by Palestinian terrorists, cannot afford to have military activities ceased.

If the Israeli government will do nothing to protect its cities and borders, it will be overthrown, and a far more right winged party will take power. A right winged party that claims Israeli Arabs should be deported, that Palestinians should be treated with an iron fist, recently joined the coalition largely due to the world's failure to deal with the Hizbollah, the world's failure to deal with Iran, and the world's failure to see why Israel must protect itself.
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:06 AM   #18
Mark Uttech
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

This is just a personal opinion as I watch my personal experience evolve. Beginning with incorporating "tikkun olam" (repair of the world) into my aikido practice, I began to study the middle
east arab/jew problem. The more I studied the troubles, the more I felt myself get drawn into a psychological and emotional quagmire, very much like a randori, but a randori that does not seem to end. Surprisingly, this helped my focus on basic practice, suwari waza. In randori we are taught to see the 'many as a single one' and go from there. Each single one is a whole world and the main practice becomes something simple to focus on: the practice of not being pulled off-balance. I'm sure there is more to it than quassam rockets.

In gassho,
mark
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:15 AM   #19
hapkidoike
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
Does the fact that in every military operation, even operations that are clearly necessary for the short term and long term security of Israel, civilians lives are lost and tragedies occur, means Israel should cease all military activity?
Not necessarily, but the numbers do suggest that the Isrelies be more descriminate in their targets.
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:26 AM   #20
Amir Krause
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Actually Neil

I almost agree with your LAST POST. The importance of the Israeli-Arab confrontation is normally blown way out of proportion. See for example a recent UN report :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...6_alliance.pdf

How come the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation and Afghanistan are the only confrontations mentioned, what about Sudan, Serbia ...

Societies are very strange entities, they are both divergent and uniform at the same time. A society can be in-fighting and at the same time hold a uniform front towards another. The Arab nation is a huge Society, with multiple internal divisions and fights and wars, yet, it also stands united with regard to some common perceived interests.


As far the first post in the thread by Mike Sigman. I would be careful in drawing any conclusions from this publication, since it seems to me it might be part of the internal Israeli political "straggle" over who among the officials and generals should pay for mishandling the war in Lebanon.

As for the Israeli-Palestinian issue in general. I believe this issue is much more complex then any of you describes. Each of you takes a position which implies one of the sides is "right" and the other is wrong. Reality never works this way. Both sides have just reasoning to some point, and each has done countless misdeeds and mistakes.
The absurdity of this matter is that the basic arguments both sides use today are the same. Both sides basically claim historic right on the same peace of land, and the right to live in it almost exclusively (again, this is a simplistic view, both societies have multiple subgroups and some are more willing to compromise others less).

Amir
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:00 AM   #21
Tom Fish
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

While kidnapping would seem like an honorable negotiating technique to some people, and errantly aimed rockets are not considered an overt act by some people, how can it be accepted or supported that the overall goal of death to all Israelis is any kind of peace movement? I would accept a free dictionary if it would help me understand how Israel should not be allowed or supported in defending herself.Until then, I will continue to bumble along with my belief that the strong actions that Israel undertakes to thwart their demise are justified.
Tom Fish
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:43 AM   #22
Taliesin
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Tom

If you want to run a self-defence argument then follow the principles of self-defence in law. And while pre-emptive strikes may be legitimate, disproportionate use of force is not self-defence - eg if a ten year old child pushed you you are not entitled to hit him with a baseball bat and claim it's self defence.

Mike

Leaving aside the fact that this artice quoted is simply an opinion providing no objecitve evidence it hard to see what it proves - apart from that someone else doesn't know much history.

Amir

Fair Comment

Cady

Your belief that "Anti-Semitism and anti-Israel can't really be separated" is flawed. Israili's and Jews are two groups with hugely overlapping membership but until they become totally overlapping membership it is entitely possible to seperate. Have you ever heard the phrase

"Not in my name". Because I think Jews are just as capable of saying it as anyone else. Or are you suggesting Jews are not capable of saying it - well that's prejudice.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:55 AM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
If you want to run a self-defence argument then follow the principles of self-defence in law. And while pre-emptive strikes may be legitimate, disproportionate use of force is not self-defence - eg if a ten year old child pushed you you are not entitled to hit him with a baseball bat and claim it's self defence.
However, it NOT a ten-year-old child. It's a tribal culture whose "civil laws" are actually a part of their religion.... including killing Jews and Christians as a written part of the religion.... and who continue to attack despite every overture the world has made to them. They feel emboldened because liberal elements in the West, particularly in Europe, actually take their side in the attacks against the age-old enemies of many Europeans.

The attempt to make a moral equivalency between the Jews and Arabs is absurd. That's the first ploy of the anti-Semites. The Jews have fought a defensive battle from the beginning. If the Arabs would quit attacking the Jews, there would be peace. It's that simple.


Mike Sigman
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:31 AM   #24
Tom Fish
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

I think it would be appropriate to use the self defense argument for survival. If passing laws would stop terrorist attacks, sign em up. I'm all for any laws that say random attacks aimed at killing or maiming for any reason are no longer allowed. Pass some laws preventing mass murder in Darfur while we are at it. (Enforcing those laws by issuing resolutions have really been effective in the past) Passing laws giving away your right to defend yourself is quite another thing. Using playground rules will most likely not work with these issues as well. My belief is that the struggle is to survive and that until both sides try to find peace the struggle will go on.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:22 AM   #25
Neil Mick
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Re: So here's what "Give Peace a Chance" did

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote:
If I didn't know any better, this remark would make me think that you resent the fact that the countless Qassam missiles missed their human targets.
And, this assumption would be erroneous.

Quote:
Does the fact that in every military operation, even operations that are clearly necessary for the short term and long term security of Israel, civilians lives are lost and tragedies occur, means Israel should cease all military activity?
Questions of extremes are hardly ways to measure reality. Here, let me show you:

Example: "Does the fact that more people die on US highways than all the World Wars, and the Civil War combined, mean that we should all avoid roads altogether, and stop using cars?"

You see? There is much more to the world, than black and white.

Quote:
You must realize that parents from southern towns, who send their children to kindergarden and schools, not knowing if they will come back alive because they are targeted daily by Palestinian terrorists, cannot afford to have military activities ceased.
You must realize that there are many more Palestinians than Israeli's who don't know if their children will come back alive because they are targeted daily by the IDF terrorism and snipers...some of them, while they are sitting in class, learning.

Quote:
If the Israeli government will do nothing to protect its cities and borders, it will be overthrown, and a far more right winged party will take power.
Again, this is fear talking. And fear leads to extremism. "We must destroy the world, in order to save it;" "My country: right or wrong."

The world is much more complex than that.

Personally, I think that Israel would get a lot farther in the world by building bridges, instead of Apartheid Walls.

Quote:
A right winged party that claims Israeli Arabs should be deported, that Palestinians should be treated with an iron fist,
That's right: the right wing parties in Israel ARE extreme, too. Just look at who Olmert tapped for VP: the man wants to drown the Israeli Arabs in the Dead Sea...he'll even provide the buses.

Quote:
y joined the coalition largely due to the world's failure to deal with the Hizbollah,
You mean...Israel's failure to deal with Hizbollah;

Quote:
the world's failure to deal with Iran,
(quiz: WHICH nation, now armed with nuclear weapons, is bombing civilians, invading other countries and popping off cluster bombs like party-favors...? Is it

A. Iran; or B. Israel....

Now tell me, again: who is the"problem" of the MidEast?

Take your time...I'm a patient man...)

Quote:
and the world's failure to see why Israel must protect itself.
and Israel's failure with its own occupational policy of collective punishment, coupled with its domestic policies of racism.
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