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Old 11-21-2006, 09:24 AM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Chimps and other non-hominid apes actually have greater mechanical advantage on the length of muscle attachment from nearly every limb joint. Thus, they have better "springs and pulleys" than we do, Mike. With one exception, -- the hips and buttocks. We are the big-ass apes in more than one sense...
I don't disagree with that, but to avoid the discussion of muscle-bone attachments (don't get me started... you'll lead me into my "Neanderthal skeletal mechanics can still be found in some Europeans" theory), I deliberately said "animals", not "primates".

Mike
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:27 AM   #152
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
We'll immediately forget it, and when doing something else utterly unrelated, later remember it, apply it, and then think we invented it ...
That's only done by teachers, but they do it "naturally".

Mike
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:28 AM   #153
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(don't get me started... you'll lead me into my "Neanderthal skeletal mechanics can still be found in some Europeans" theory) ...
Don't talk about my uncle that way.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:40 AM   #154
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I can, Akuzawa is able to teach it in a very short period of time, where in Aikido, there is a lingering idea that it will take a lifetime to ever be even a shadow of your nearly magical teacher...
Hee, gotcha! You're wrong I asked this teacher in front of his students how long, using his system, it would take for a beginner to get his body trained to a level that he could use this in his aikido. The reply, from the teacher and from several students, was "about a year", of dedicated practice. Akuzawa, I don't remember the exact figure thrown around, but I believe Robert John mentioned 1.5 or 2 years as ballpark figures. For me, depending on the level the teacher has in mind when he makes the calculation, I think they're the same length of time. Both guys know what they want to teach, and they know how to get there, so they can give an honest and tested answer. I would trust the aikido guy more at this stage, since he's in his 70s and has several generations of students to judge from. But I'm not picky, 2 or 3 years doing something is fine with me, compared to the 15 I previously wasted
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Old 11-21-2006, 10:34 AM   #155
MM
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Slightly off topic, but does concern "natural" or "intuitive" movements.

Seiza.

It's a thing we all do in aikido. But why? It certainly doesn't feel natural or intuitive. I've never seen a baby/toddler/child sit seiza either.

But consider these points:

http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry17.html
Quote:
Mr. Lowry on seiza wrote:
The best, though not necessarily most pleasant, way to assume the correct posture is to imagine there is an eyelet in the very top of your skull connected to a rope that is stretching you up to the ceiling. Or imagine the floor and ceiling are pressing gently together and it is only your posture holding them apart, your spine stretched, though not beyond its natural curve.
and

From "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan ? A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu" (Serge Mol):
Quote:
"Some researchers maintain that 'Oshikiuchi' are non-martial methods of etiquette, while several key figures within Daito ryu state that, in addition to etiquette, there are actual techniques - hanza-handachi to be specific - that were created to be used within the inner chambers of Edo-jo (Tokyo castle). The martial techniques or principles may have actually been referred to as 'aiki no inyo-ho' (aiki methods based on yin/yang) - perhaps a part of Oshikiuchi. They were techniques that were prohibited to be shown in public and were only shown within the Takeda household."

The former sounds a lot like Rob's exercises for internal arts and the latter references them as "aiki no inyo-ho" and it's from ... drum roll ... seiza.


We're talking IN PLAIN SIGHT here. LOL! Kudos to Ellis Amdur for that phrase. It's actually a great one. I hope he doesn't mind me repeating it so often.

Mark
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Old 11-21-2006, 10:38 AM   #156
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Hee, gotcha! You're wrong I asked this teacher in front of his students how long, using his system, it would take for a beginner to get his body trained to a level that he could use this in his aikido. The reply, from the teacher and from several students, was "about a year", of dedicated practice.
Well good for him. I haven't found anything like that here in *mainstream* aikido however. Personally I've progressed more in the last 3 years of training with my current teacher (way outside the mainstream of aikido) than I think I had in all the time I've spent in aikido before that.
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Old 11-21-2006, 10:42 AM   #157
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
We are the big-ass apes in more than one sense...


Yeah, that's the price we pay for being completely bipedal.

Quote:
What we lose in leverage, though, we gain in degrees of freedom of joint rotation, responsiveness and flexibility, which also allows our highly dynamic stance --
The long arms and muscles definitely account for apes' mechanical leverage, and also the greater area they have, over which to accelarate and gain momentum when they spin or turn and flail their arms. I would not want to be in the way.

But in addition to that, it does seem that they are much more relaxed and unified in their movements, perhaps being less self-conscious than most humans.
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Old 11-21-2006, 10:56 AM   #158
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
and also the greater area they have, over which to accelarate and gain momentum when they spin or turn and flail their arms.
angular momentum is based on mass and angular velocity, not total area.

also, their longer arms means a higher polar moment of intertia, causing them to spin slower.

man, i'm really picking on you today.
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:06 AM   #159
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Yeah, Luc, you're like an avenging Aikido angel of doom!

It goes even further than what you are saying, though. Apes and other non-human mammals do tend to move their body parts in a much more unified way than we uptight humans do, and as a result, all of their body parts are moving in tandem instead of one against the other. So, their movements are naturally more powerful and directionally focused than ours. When you don't have parts moving oppositely and at odds with each other, you get a lot more power.

A slap from a chimp can be much more powerful than one from a human -- not just because of leverage and all the good mechanical-physics stuff you cite , but also because their entire body is relaxed and poured into the movement.

I wonder whether we can get a government grant to study chimp and gorilla slaps? Who wants to be a volunteer? Luc?
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:11 AM   #160
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Don't chimps also have MUCH higher muscle mass (and bone density, etc) than humans? That makes it much harder to compare anything. I mean, they might look relaxed partly just because it doesn't take them much energy to do something because they're so darn strong .

Or maybe swinging from ones arms builds relaxed coordination and efficient movement .
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:17 AM   #161
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Being strong doesn't make you relaxed. Extra muscle mass and bone weight requires an increased amount of energy used in order to move, and even to just "be."

I believe that non-human mammals are not intellectually engaged in controlling their musculature, and so do not tense up. Even intelligent primates such as chimps and gorillas (who are mostly terrestrial, not arboreal) are a lot more comfortable in their skins than are humans. We think, therefore we tense.
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:30 AM   #162
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Being strong doesn't make you relaxed
I know, that's not quite what I'm saying. I'm thinking more of how you get a smaller person to do a physical task (say lifting something heavy) and they visibly tense or strain to make the effort, maybe also distorting their posture. Someone much bigger comes along and just tosses it on their shoulder. Of course they're using more total energy, but it's a smaller proportion of their total available, and the thing doesn't 'look heavy' and they don't have as much of a sensation of having used their muscles (even though, of course, they have).

I'm not sure it applies to chimps, but that was my thought... if someone is much stronger, they may often _appear_ and even _feel_ more relaxed doing the same task, all other things being equal (of course all other things aren't always equal, etc).

Edited to add a more Aikido-specifc example. When I'm training with someone smaller than me, I tend to find it much harder to tell whether I'm just forcing through with muscle power from my arms -- I can't feel the muscle I'm using as well because it's so easy. If someone is noticeably heavier or stronger than me, I tend to notice much more clearly if I'm trying to bulldoze through or not.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 11-21-2006 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:14 PM   #163
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
From "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan ? A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu" (Serge Mol):

The former sounds a lot like Rob's exercises for internal arts and the latter references them as "aiki no inyo-ho" and it's from ... drum roll ... seiza.

We're talking IN PLAIN SIGHT here. LOL! Kudos to Ellis Amdur for that phrase. It's actually a great one. I hope he doesn't mind me repeating it so often.

Mark
Mark
This goes into the other thread on that other forum where I was discussing resolving yin yang (In-yo ho) in us and it not being about the other guy.
The comment about seiza has nothing to do with that. And nothing at all to do with another person. It is all in you. That test with the pushes or the hand-pull where it negates and neutrailizes their effort so they feel they can't even push or pull anymore? It was the exercises you're now doing to create that movement and attention to connection in you that is the start of in yo ho. Sinking/rising.expanding/compressing pushing /pulling. And having them all present and moving in us- not the other guy being involved.
It is the essense of being both ghosty and 100% solid all at once.
Where someone trying to play you gets their whole body moved and not just a part of them being captured.

Speaking of which the idea of Ellis's great multi-faceted article, and just -what- was -hidden in plain site- evolved from the begining to the end with Ellis's excellent research and Koryu history. I said at the start the CMA had nothing to directly do with Ueshiba. Though the Chinese Arts influences are generic and had an inescapable influence, it was Ueshiab's training in a Japanese art that was his inspiration. And Koryu In-yo ho is a part.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-21-2006 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:01 PM   #164
MM
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mark
This goes into the other thread on that other forum where I was discussing resolving yin yang (In-yo ho) in us and it not being about the other guy.
The comment about seiza has nothing to do with that. And nothing at all to do with another person. It is all in you. That test with the pushes or the hand-pull where it negates and neutrailizes their effort so they feel they can't even push or pull anymore? It was the exercises you're now doing to create that movement and attention to connection in you that is the start of in yo ho. Sinking/rising.expanding/compressing pushing /pulling. And having them all present and moving in us- not the other guy being involved.
It is the essense of being both ghosty and 100% solid all at once.
Where someone trying to play you gets their whole body moved and not just a part of them being captured.

Speaking of which the idea of Ellis's great multi-faceted article, and just -what- was -hidden in plain site- evolved from the begining to the end with Ellis's excellent research and Koryu history. I said at the start the CMA had nothing to directly do with Ueshiba. Though the Chinese Arts influences are generic and had an inescapable influence, it was Ueshiab's training in a Japanese art that was his inspiration. And Koryu In-yo ho is a part.
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,
True, it's about internal, but what brought me to seiza was those quotes and some others (I couldn't find them again). It seemed to me that seiza wasn't just a kneeling type position. It appears that seiza was actually used as an internal exercise. Not only that, but that once one was adept at this internal exercise called seiza, one could use in in motion in hanza-handachi mode. In other words, hanza handachi wasn't what Ellis had talked about as a means of a person in seiza defeating a person standing (Ellis even mentioned that in some koryu the person standing won all the time). It was a means of using this internal art (which one build by doing the exercise of seiza) in motion, in technique, or in a dynamic atmosphere.

As for Ellis' CMA influence -- I don't know. Ueshiba spent quite a bit of time with Omoto kyo. There could be a link there if anyone could dig into it. Or maybe not. As I said, I don't know the answers.

Mark
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:32 PM   #165
Neil Yamamoto
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

I've stayed out of this but guess I'll mess up the environment a bit.

First, I totally disagree with the premise of budo springing from children. Yeah, there may be some similarity in general to what has been called "Child like natural movement" but so what, you can say the same for similarities in all human movements.

What others have said of aiki and why it works in my opinion, is it is counter intuitive to most human patterns of movement on a psychological level. In the examples David and Mikel used, a child may have only the thought of getting away in mind, but it's also not being applied against any real intent of harm or aggression nor is the intent of purpose the same for the child.

As others have posted, how people define aiki is a major stumbing block. Suffice to say, what works for one doesn't work for another as satisfactory mentally and emotionally. David and those agreeing with him are not going to change their minds so I'm not going to argue this point beyond the above. On to the second part of my post.

I've been working on many of the same concepts discussed here based upon my own practice and purposes and what I've been taught. Now, having felt some of what Chris showed, talked about from his visit to Ark, I do many of the same things. So do several other instructors I know. What I believe makes Ark's method work well and develop the traits described is the training methodology. Aikido as it is popularly taught lacks knowledge of this in almost all cases I've experienced with hands on contact or seen demonstrated.

Aikido's methodology for teaching these things are there, but are so totally misunderstood by almost everybody I've encountered, including numerous higher ranked instructors, they are almost useless for developing those body skills. As a result, I believe aikido for most people lacks much of what is needed for control over positioning in relation to uke. Which is why tenken is used so often, as is evasion, sped up techniques, and excessive torque applied to limbs. My impression is the Japanese arts are way behind the Chinese arts in how these things are taught. I have my own pet theories on why, but I'm not going to get into that here.

Arks' method is very much the xingyi drills I've seen and dabbled in earlier in my training. The drills mentioned reinforce the body skills. Good stuff to develop the traits discussed in my take. What is different is the purpose. Aiki aspects of these same body skills tend to ocus on stability and control to throw as I've been taught these things, with power as a secondary aspect.

What is being discussed here from it appears, Ark's approach (as is Dan's and Mike's) is for striking and then closing. While it can be used for throwing grappling quite easily, it takes a different approach. The approach discussed gives better power release -- fa jin - than the sequencing of movement I was taught in aiki arts.

In my own case, I've had to piece it together and I know I've been missing pieces. Makes me wish I'd done more of the Chinese arts back when. The quicker release of power is one of the blocks I've had in my own training. I've been told I hit and can throw hard, but not to my own satisfaction in progress, which I felt had stagnated. I've struggled with the bits I'm missing and the stuff discussed are puzzle pieces I've found fills in holes in my own training. What is it I've been missing? Nothing much, just the point of view (and time) to put it all together. I spent the last few years trying to clean up problems for others in the group I've been dumped in charge of and that severely sidetracked my own training progress. (Another good reason not to want to be in charge of anything or teach!)

For what it's worth, in my opinion there is nothing in the body skills discussed I've not encountered in a good martial artist (to greater or lesser degree) that isn't done but for differing intent and purpose for the art being taught. Heck, Andy Dale, one of my first aikido seniors under Bernie Lau does many of the same exercises in the taichi and bagua he teaches. What is different is the intent, Andy doesn't focus on the same things as Chris brought back from his visit to Ark's class.

The upper body cross, (front and rear) hip and torso stability, compression, hip canting, rooting, etc. I've felt in good aikido sensei- Yoshioka from Hawaii and what he was capable of springs to mind as one of the most capable in this regard. I couldn't put words to it back then, but I remember the feel extremely well.

Ikeda has some similar skills as those discussed but uses it in a very different intent and manner. I've been taught the same things by Don Angier as well but with a different purpose in mind for how it's applied. (The terminology was very different and could be very misleading as well as to what was being done too). Ushiro Kenji as mentioned, is a good example of what most should be trying to achieve I believe.

Applying some of what Ark showed Chris made a difference in what I do, in just a matter of a few weeks, in my power generation. It connected the dots in my own puzzle. It was nothing dramatic either, it was simply a matter of connecting the pieces together in a different sequence that my brain could wrap around properly.

What the block is for most people I believe, and as was already mentioned, is focus on the wrong things and not being willing to step back and start afresh. I know from direct experience with several aikidoka, karateka, etc. they were willing to admit what they did didn't work on me, just not willing to let go of what their status was in their own world of training. Dogma within an art and in a group is a powerful factor to try and overcome. Those who do over come it usually end up good and on their own, or good and not well liked in the group.

I had much of the same problem as a kid with not fitting in and being held back by trying to belong. Now it's just about sucking less each week and who cares who likes me any longer. As Chris will second, the rule we follow is "I suck. I will try to suck less. Someday I may even get good enough to do this well." Or something along that line of thought. And in case anyone wonders, the only reason I'm teaching is I suck less than the other guys in the group.

Last point as Mark just posted this, anyone ever done any of the exercises Shirata Rinjiro taught? Internal exercises indeed!

Neil Yamamoto
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:41 PM   #166
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

"Last point as Mark just posted this, anyone ever done any of the exercises Shirata Rinjiro taught? Internal exercises indeed!
Neil Yamamoto
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club and Icho Ryu Chief Fluffy Bunny"

Yes, I do some of them every day and have for over 30 years.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:51 PM   #167
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Hi Neil, can you describe some of those exercises?

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-21-2006, 01:55 PM   #168
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
I've stayed out of this but guess I'll mess up the environment a bit.
Helluva a long post, Neil. My lips are still tired from reading it.
Quote:
What is being discussed here from it appears, Ark's approach (as is Dan's and Mike's) is for striking and then closing. While it can be used for throwing grappling quite easily, it takes a different approach. The approach discussed gives better power release -- fa jin - than the sequencing of movement I was taught in aiki arts.
I just wanted to note that I disagree with this, in my own case. You mention "fa jin".... before there is fa there must be na. I.e., you don't release power until you have the position and balance. That being so, you can either release or throw. Technically, this means that you can handle an attack with either "hard" (release) or "soft" (throw). In other words, the difference you're positing tends to disappear in a realistic discussion of martial arts.
Quote:
In my own case, I've had to piece it together and I know I've been missing pieces. Makes me wish I'd done more of the Chinese arts back when. The quicker release of power is one of the blocks I've had in my own training. I've been told I hit and can throw hard, but not to my own satisfaction in progress, which I felt had stagnated. I've struggled with the bits I'm missing and the stuff discussed are puzzle pieces I've found fills in holes in my own training. What is it I've been missing? Nothing much, just the point of view (and time) to put it all together. I spent the last few years trying to clean up problems for others in the group I've been dumped in charge of and that severely sidetracked my own training progress. (Another good reason not to want to be in charge of anything or teach!).

For what it's worth, in my opinion there is nothing in the body skills discussed I've not encountered in a good martial artist (to greater or lesser degree) that isn't done but for differing intent and purpose for the art being taught. Heck, Andy Dale, one of my first aikido seniors under Bernie Lau does many of the same exercises in the taichi and bagua he teaches. What is different is the intent, Andy doesn't focus on the same things as Chris brought back from his visit to Ark's class.
Well, I'd disagree. I don't know of a single westerner who I'd consider skilled in Taiji, Bagua, etc.... the same missing elements in Aikido are usually missing in almost all western teachers of Chinese martial arts. Not to disparage Andy by any means, but simply to suggest you consider that what happens in Aikido is actually pretty common in most of the western versions of Asian arts.

In terms of the mechanics being the same, I'd disagree there, also. I recently did a workshop in Berlin at an MMA school with the instructor, Frank Burczynski, attending out of curiosity. He's good, BTW. He responded to a question (on the Kampfkunst-board, if you speak German) about whether the mechanics were different. He now thinks they are different, although from his encounters with other "internal martial arts teachers" in the past, he hadn't seen anything that was different from the mechanics he already knew. It's worth considering.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:07 PM   #169
MM
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
I've stayed out of this but guess I'll mess up the environment a bit.
Can't hurt.

Seriously, thanks for the post. I'll snip some of it, though. Hope you don't mind.

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
What I believe makes Ark's method work well and develop the traits described is the training methodology. Aikido as it is popularly taught lacks knowledge of this in almost all cases I've experienced with hands on contact or seen demonstrated.

Aikido's methodology for teaching these things are there, but are so totally misunderstood by almost everybody I've encountered, including numerous higher ranked instructors, they are almost useless for developing those body skills. As a result, I believe aikido for most people lacks much of what is needed for control over positioning in relation to uke. Which is why tenken is used so often, as is evasion, sped up techniques, and excessive torque applied to limbs. My impression is the Japanese arts are way behind the Chinese arts in how these things are taught. I have my own pet theories on why, but I'm not going to get into that here.
Got to agree with you here. Still, if it is there with some high ranking Aikido instructors, why isn't it being taught? Or is it, just silently and without a lot of fanfare?

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
The upper body cross, (front and rear) hip and torso stability, compression, hip canting, rooting, etc. I've felt in good aikido sensei- Yoshioka from Hawaii and what he was capable of springs to mind as one of the most capable in this regard. I couldn't put words to it back then, but I remember the feel extremely well.

Ikeda has some similar skills as those discussed but uses it in a very different intent and manner.
Which is why it felt differently but was still very subtle and smooth. Good to know it for sure, though.

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
What the block is for most people I believe, and as was already mentioned, is focus on the wrong things and not being willing to step back and start afresh. I know from direct experience with several aikidoka, karateka, etc. they were willing to admit what they did didn't work on me, just not willing to let go of what their status was in their own world of training. Dogma within an art and in a group is a powerful factor to try and overcome. Those who do over come it usually end up good and on their own, or good and not well liked in the group.
Ugh. Much the same thing I heard from someone else. I'm still looking for Option C.

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
I had much of the same problem as a kid with not fitting in and being held back by trying to belong. Now it's just about sucking less each week and who cares who likes me any longer. As Chris will second, the rule we follow is "I suck. I will try to suck less. Someday I may even get good enough to do this well." Or something along that line of thought. And in case anyone wonders, the only reason I'm teaching is I suck less than the other guys in the group.
LOL! I like the quoted sentences. If you don't mind, I may use that.

Quote:
Neil Yamamoto wrote:
Last point as Mark just posted this, anyone ever done any of the exercises Shirata Rinjiro taught? Internal exercises indeed!
Um, not that I know of. Is there a place online that explains them?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:29 PM   #170
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I just wanted to note that I disagree with this, in my own case.

In terms of the mechanics being the same, I'd disagree there, also.
Mike, I think you misunderstood some of what Neil wrote there. I'd also like to point out that you've never (to my knowledge) trained with Neil, Don, Bernie or anyone from the Aunkai, so you're not in the best position to comment on the similarities or differences between what may or may not be there. I'm not trying to be defensive or arguementative, just pointing out the limits of your insight. Neil's speaking in pretty general terms about some pretty detailed stuff.

Ron, I know personally I wouldn't feel comfortable posting any of the Aunkai's exercises for the world to read, and I doubt Neil would either. First, I only had a couple hours to work with them, so there's a very real possibility (certainty more likely) that I'm missing some things and doing others incorrectly and second, I don't really feel I have any right to share those kinds of specifics. Sorry man, maybe if we get Ark out here sometime you can come couch-surf.
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:33 PM   #171
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Sorry...I meant Rinjiro Shirata's exercises...

Best,
Ron (Rob John's descriptions are more than enough to work on)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:35 PM   #172
Alfonso
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Hi, great thread!

Rob John 's posted a couple of detailed description of two Aunkai exercises on this site..
I think Shirata sensei's exercises were the question ? Are you talking about the sword/jo suburi?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:46 PM   #173
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Mike, I think you misunderstood some of what Neil wrote there. I'd also like to point out that you've never (to my knowledge) trained with Neil, Don, Bernie or anyone from the Aunkai, so you're not in the best position to comment on the similarities or differences between what may or may not be there. I'm not trying to be defensive or arguementative, just pointing out the limits of your insight. Neil's speaking in pretty general terms about some pretty detailed stuff.
Hi Chris:

Well, I'm not trying to be argumentative, either, but if you look at my reply to Neil, it was more in response to comments that he made, not in terms of singular assertions on my part. I read your post on E-Budo and it seemed fairly straightforward that you weren't used to jin mechanics. No big deal, because ALL of us have had to start from scratch on those mechanics... even though there are variations and levels of sophistication in those mechanics.

If you posted that you were unfamiliar with those mechanics, I can at least make a general read on what has been included and not included in your own training by your own teachers; i.e., either what they know or what they may/may-not have taught you about basics in a number of years. Same leeway you have whenever I post anything. That's how these discussions move forward without any friction: the basis for good debate. And let me interject here that I've always enjoyed your posts (still do) and I take them to be almost always good and honest discussion material.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 11-21-2006, 03:23 PM   #174
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Chris:

Well, I'm not trying to be argumentative, either, but if you look at my reply to Neil, it was more in response to comments that he made, not in terms of singular assertions on my part. I read your post on E-Budo and it seemed fairly straightforward that you weren't used to jin mechanics. No big deal, because ALL of us have had to start from scratch on those mechanics... even though there are variations and levels of sophistication in those mechanics.

If you posted that you were unfamiliar with those mechanics, I can at least make a general read on what has been included and not included in your own training by your own teachers; i.e., either what they know or what they may/may-not have taught you about basics in a number of years. Same leeway you have whenever I post anything. That's how these discussions move forward without any friction: the basis for good debate. And let me interject here that I've always enjoyed your posts (still do) and I take them to be almost always good and honest discussion material.

All the Best.

Mike

That's fair, like I said, just pointing out the limitations of the medium. I don't really have a good concept of "jin mechanics" as a term, I'm almost exclusively a budoka and Chinese arts and terms are totally new to me (and after all this is aikiweb). There are aspects of our training that (while different in specifics from what little I've seen of the Aunkai) work to develop similar skills. Like Neil said, the specifics and application of these skills are different (but so far at least seem to be very complimentary). I have no doubt that if we hadn't already been working on our own version of this kind of training, I would have had absolutely no reference point whatsoever for what we did with Ark. Note: not trying to backpedal from my posting on e-budo in the slightest, but I've had some time to work on what we did there and play with how it can fit into what I/we do. Seems like every night there's 10 things where I think, "Aha! So THAT's how Neil/Rich/Johnny/Joe/Don do that!" As I hope I made clear on the referenced thread, the only thing I'm more impressed by than Ark's formidable skill is his clear and replicable teaching methodology.

Thanks Mike.


Ron:

Doh! I should have caught that... Narf.
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Old 11-21-2006, 03:41 PM   #175
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I don't really have a good concept of "jin mechanics" as a term, I'm almost exclusively a budoka and Chinese arts and terms are totally new to me (and after all this is aikiweb).
Hi Chris:

Doesn't matter. "Jin mechanics", "ki tests", "ki demos", "fa jin", "rooting", "neutralizing" (in the ki/kokyu sense), "listening".... all that stuff is the same stuff.... Chinese or Japanese martial art, regardless. Anybody that tries to tell you different doesn't know what he's talking about... and he's archiving an 'embarrassing moment' that could come back to haunt him.

Regards,

Mike
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